Magmortar (OU Analysis)

[NightShadow]

Magmortar isn't actually that[/b] bad. It has few saving graces over Heatran, namely higher Speed, Cross Chop as a way to deal with Blissey (as opposed to Explosion on Heatran) and Thunderbolt.

I agree with SOMALIA. The Choice sets are pretty bad but the Mixed Wallbreaker is actually pretty decent.

 

[EonADS]

I'd say slash HP Grass on the fourth slot of the Mixed Wallbreaker set. It's Magmortar's only way to deal with Swampert, who is an incredibly common tank/wall in OU. While HP Ice does more for the general coverage and hits Gliscor, HP Grass is worth consideration just because it lets you beat one of your biggest counters and crush a very common part of any stall team. Unfortunately, it's not an assured OHKO even with SR on the field, but it has an extremely high chance of it.

Also, why is the nature not Naive? Hasty leaves him vulnerable to priority.

 

[deinosaur]

If this thing gets hit by a priority move in a decently weakened state, it will die. It has absolutely no way of surviving. You get 4 switchins with SR and 2 with full spikes + SR.
Magmortar doesn't have a whole lot going for it.

 

[ShinyAzelf]

If this thing gets hit by a priority move in a decently weakened state, it will die. It has absolutely no way of surviving. You get 4 switchins with SR and 2 with full spikes + SR.
Magmortar doesn't have a whole lot going for it.

Lots of frail Pokemon such as Azelf and Gengar will die to a priority move at a decently weakened state.

Non-flying type SR weak Pokemon only have 2 switch-ins if there is Stealth Rock and 3 layers of Spikes on the field.

Are you saying those Pokemon don't have a lot going for either?

EDIT: Edited that second phrase, and even if a Pokemon is outclassed, it still gets an analysis if it does the job well.

 

[alex 67]

Lots of frail Pokemon such as Azelf and Gengar will die to a priority move at a decently weakened state.
Ok that's true

All SR weak Pokemon only have 2 switch-ins if there is Stealth Rock and 3 layers of Spikes on the field. That's false Gyrados, Dragonite and lots more.

Are you saying those Pokemon don't have a lot going for either? Almost all pokemon in the OU that are weak to SR have some kind of redeeming aspect that gives them their own niche and makes them usable in the tier. Azelf and Gengar are actually immune to Spikes meaning they won't be dying fast and have very good base Speed stats which makes up for their frailty. Have you noticed there isn't any pure Fire types in the tier? That's because their either A) Outclassed by Infernape or B) Outclassed by Heatran. And Moltres the other rarely seen Fire types is not only bulky and while it does have a 50% weakness to SR it is immune to Spikes and has Roost to heal off the damage and to top it off is fast enough.

 

[deinosaur]

This is exactly what I meant alex 67. All of those Pokemon have something going for it, such as boosting moves, coverage, speed, or power. Magmortar is badly outclassed by Infernape or Heatran in whatever it does.

 

[EonADS]

Seconding what everyone else has said about the Choice sets, they're very bad. SR weakness, Lower SpA than Heatran, and worse typing than both Heatran and Infernape means that despite the ability to kill off Blissey and Ttar, it won't be able to work as a team player nearly as well as Heatran or Infernape.

However, the Mixed Wallbreaker is not only usable, but really useful for dissasembling stall and semi-stall teams, even more so than LO Tran, at least in my opinion.

This is exactly what I meant alex 67. All of those Pokemon have something going for it, such as boosting moves, coverage, speed, or power. Magmortar is badly outclassed by Infernape or Heatran in whatever it does.

Things Mixed Wallbreaker Magmortar has over Infernape:

1. Higher SpA.
2. Thunderbolt deals with Gyarados and Vaporeon (two bulky water types who flat-out obliterate Specially based MixApe) better than Grass Knot, while still dealing with Dragons thanks to HP Ice.
3. Actually, one of only two Fire-types that can consistently deal with Gyarados and Swampert at the same time if it runs the correct moveset. Physically based MixApe is the other, but it has to rely on Stone Edge's shaky accuracy in order to beat Gyara. Also, The physical variant can't always KO Swampert with Grass Knot, even after Spikes damage, while Magmortar's HP Grass doesn't have that problem (which, if Oglemi adds that, it'll have access to).

Not exactly spectacular, but it has some good points.

Things Mixed Wallbreaker Magmortar has over Heatran:

1. Deals with bulky water types (Excluding Swampert) much better than Heatran does, thanks to T-Bolt.
2. Higher Speed, allowing it to outpace Gyara and Heatran.
3. Doesn't have to kill itself to defeat Blissey.
4. Has Focus Blast/Cross Chop to hit Tyranitar hard.

Good enough for you?

Btw, I think some of these points should be included in the Mixed Wallbreaker's AC, for reference.

 

[alex 67]

Things Mixed Wallbreaker Magmortar has over Infernape:

1. Higher SpA. Infernape has Nasty Plot and therefore has much more potential
2. Thunderbolt deals with Gyarados and Vaporeon (two bulky water types who flat-out obliterate Specially based MixApe) better than Grass Knot. Your wrong, with a NP Fire Blast OHKOs offensive Gyrados after Stealth Rock and GK with NP does around 70% to Vaporeon. Even a Choice Specs Thunderbolt with max attack Magmortar still fails to OHKO Vaporeon's standard wish set even with rocks making this advantage totally irrelevant
3. Actually, one of only two Fire-types that can consistently deal with Gyarados and Swampert at the same time if it runs the correct moveset. Physically based MixApe is the other, but it has to rely on Stone Edge's shaky accuracy in order to beat Gyara. Also, The physical variant can't always KO Swampert with Grass Knot, even after Spikes damage, while Magmortar's HP Grass doesn't have that problem. If you really really wanted to you could run HP elelectric with GK and you beat both. on a special set

Not exactly spectacular, but it has some good points.

Things Mixed Wallbreaker Magmortar has over Heatran:

1. Deals with bulky water types (Excluding Swampert) much better than Heatran does, thanks to T-Bolt. Magmortar's Tbolt is comparable in power to Heatran's HP grass
2. Higher Speed, allowing it to outpace Gyara and Heatran. You still lose to Heatran with Magmoratr as Cross Chop doesn't do enough but congratulations you beat Gyrados just like everything else that's faster and has Thunderbolt
3. Doesn't have to kill itself to defeat Blissey. Blissey switches
4. Has Focus Blast/Cross Chop to hit Tyranitar hard. Heatran can put some evs in attack and run Iron Head if it was that worried about Tyranitar and Cross Chop could miss and Focus Blast.... well look at my signature

Good enough for you?

Btw, I think some of these points should be included in the Mixed Wallbreaker's AC, for reference.

 

[EonADS]

Infernape has Nasty Plot and therefore has much more potential

1. Nobody uses NP Ape anymore, its so unreliable. ScarfGon checks it, and never has any problems with revenge killing it.

2. We're talking about straight-up attacking here, not setup. I was refering to the Specially Based MixApe, as stated.

Your wrong, with a NP Fire Blast OHKOs offensive Gyrados after Stealth Rock and GK with NP does around 70% to Vaporeon. Even a Choice Specs Thunderbolt with max attack Magmortar still fails to OHKO Vaporeon's standard wish set even with rocks making this advantage totally irrelevant

1. Again, nobody uses NP Ape.

2. Again, straight damage. I was refering to the Specially Based MixApe, once again, as stated.

3. Magmortar's T-Bolt doesn't need SR to OHKO any standard Gyara, not unless its running 252/252 Hp/SpD or a Wacan Berry, and then Magmortar still outspeeds Gyara before a DD, meaning it can KO it the next turn. Even with a Wacan Berry, the Offensive DD Gyara is still OHKO'ed about 98% of the time if it switches into SR, and it still doesn't change the fact that Magmortar outspeeds it.

4. Normally, Special MixApe can't do crap to Vaporeon. And "70% after an NP Boost" is pointless because you still won't be able to KO it, and you waste the switch-in turn to predict it. At least with Magmortar, you'll be able to take a decent chunk out of it on the switch if you predict it, forcing it to use Wish and let you bring in a counter scot-free.

If you really really wanted to you could run HP elelectric with GK and you beat both. on a special set

1. Which would be idiotic, because MixApe is designed for maximum coverage on threats, while Magmortar is designed to dismantle specific threats based on its moveset.

Magmortar's Tbolt is comparable in power to Heatran's HP grass

Sorry, but no. Here's an example.

136 SpA Hasty MixMortar's T-Bolt vs 188/68 Vaporeon: 56.7% - 67%

252 SpA Timid LO Tran's HP Grass vs 188/68 Vaporeon: 42.9% - 50.9%

Pretty decent difference in power. Magmortar will 2HKO Vaporeon with Thunderbolt after SR, even with 2 turns of Lefties recovery thanks to Protect, which it can do if it predicts the switch. Heatran can't pull it off under the same conditions, not unless it rolls max damage on both HP Grass attacks.

You still lose to Heatran with Magmoratr as Cross Chop doesn't do enough but congratulations you beat Gyrados just like everything else that's faster and has Thunderbolt

1. Correct, but it's still able to finish off a Heatran that's been weakened without risking a speed tie.

2. Which Heatran can't do. That's why it has that advantage over Heatran. Thanks for making sure to understand the point of my arguments.

Blissey switches

Leaving a healthy Magmortar, a possibly weakened Blissey, and an easy way to predict your opponent's next move. Magmortar's Cross Chop also doesn't need nearly as much scouting as Heatran's explosion. This is opposed to losing one of your most important Pokemon, and possibly Exploding on a Ghost or Blissey's Protect if you haven't scouted enough.

Heatran can put some evs in attack and run Iron Head if it was that worried about Tyranitar and Cross Chop could miss and Focus Blast.... well look at my signature

1. Lolwut, Iron Head? Why would you run a move that has crappy coverage and works off Heatran's weaker offensive stat, even if it has STAB?

2. As I said earlier, MixMortar is designed to combat specifc threats, while Heatran is not.

3. Still better than not being able to do much of anything to Ttar.

Again, good enough for you?

 

[alex 67]

Yes some be people do still use NP ape no it isn't as common and Scarf Flygon is a horrible check because a +2 Vacuum wave is doing 57.8% - 68.1%. Anyway back to the point

If you really really wanted to you could run HP elelectric with GK and you beat both. on a special set 1. Which would be idiotic, because MixApe is designed for maximum coverage on threats, while Magmortar is designed to dismantle specific threats based on its moveset.

I know that's why I said if you really really wanted to I wasn't recommending it.

1. Lolwut, Iron Head? Why would you run a move that has crappy coverage and works off Heatran's weaker offensive stat, even if it has STAB?

Yeah again I wasn't being serious with this. I said if it was that worried about Tyranitar and it really wanted to beat it.
Again Magmortar just doesn't work in OU it's slow and doesn't have the bulk to make up for it unlike Heatran, has a rather shitty ability and worst of all is weak to SR and isn't immune to Spikes or Sandstorm to make up for it.
Also 136 SpA Hasty MixMortar's T-Bolt vs 188/68 Vaporeon:52.7% - 62.1% not 56.7% - 67%

Again, good enough for you?

No

 

[EonADS]

Yes some be people do still use NP ape no it isn't as common

Fine, I'll revise that. Very few people use NP Ape, and it's still unreliable. Not to mention I wasn't talking about it.

and Scarf Flygon is a horrible check because a +2 Vacuum wave is doing 57.8% - 68.1%.

That's why it's a check and not a counter.

I know that's why I said if you really really wanted to I wasn't recommending it.

That's besides the point. Magmortar can deal with Gyara and Swampert normally while Infernape can't normally. If you're not being serious, then don't post it because it doesn't have value.

Yeah again I wasn't being serious with this. I said if it was that worried about Tyranitar and it really wanted to beat it.

Then again, if you're not being serious, don't post it because it doesn't have value.

Again Magmortar just doesn't work in OU it's slow and doesn't have the bulk to make up for it unlike Heatran, has a rather shitty ability and worst of all is weak to SR and isn't immune to Spikes or Sandstorm to make up for it.

1. Have you ever tired Magmortar in OU?

2. If so, have you used it on a team with the Mixed Wallbreaker set with Oglemi's recommended team options?

If the answer to either of these questions is no, then stop saying that it doesn't work in practice because you have no idea what you're talking about. If you try it, and still can't get it to work, I'll stop judging you on this matter.

Also, you keep saying "outclassed". That doesn't matter. In C&C, if a set has value, isn't a deadweight in the team, and can preform adequately in the given teir, then it should be given consideration. Read this thread, particularly whistle's post (#7).

Also 136 SpA Hasty MixMortar's T-Bolt vs 188/68 Vaporeon:52.7% - 62.1% not 56.7% - 67%

Damage calcs don't work right on my computer after I do a couple of them. My point still stands.

 

[alex 67]

Actually, one of only two Fire-types that can consistently deal with Gyarados and Swampert at the same time if it runs the correct moveset. Physically based MixApe is the other

You said yourself earlier that Physically based mix Inferanpe can deal with Swampert and Gyrados at the same time. Also if you had read my earlier post you would see that I'm not an idiot and stated that even though being outclassed it's not a reason to dismiss it.

The Choice sets are not only outclassed by Heatran and while I know that isn't a reason to dismiss a pokemon they just don't work.

Finally that brings up another question; when would you ever use this over Physically based mix Infernape? Close Combat takes down Water-Types as fast as Thunderbolt would, Close Combat is not only more powerful then Cross Chop but more reliable also. Finally Overheat does everything Fire Blast needs to do such as taking out Grass- and Steel-Types. Sure it isn't as powerful but it gets done what it needs to get done. Also Magmortar seems to only have use against stall teams what happens when it runs into Offensive teams? It's dead weight:(

 

[Warped Worlds]

Physically based Mix Ape loses to Rest/Talk Gyara if Rocks aren't up, which is very possible due to all Stall teams running a spinner. Physically based Mix Ape also gets countered by Tentacruel, while Magmortar has Thunderbolt.

34.6% - 40.7% with a -1 Stone Edge to Rest/Talk Gyarados. Heck, even with rocks up, it has a fairly decent chance of not getting OHKO'd.

Although, this may not be much, it shows the merits of Thunderbolt on Mixed Magmortar. To hit Tentacruel and Rest/Talk Gyara, two things which beat both kinds of Mix Ape.

Not saying Magmortar should have an OU analysis, but it isn't completely outclassed by its better fire type bretheren.

 

[alex 67]

Magmortar won't always 2HKO Support tentacruel without Stealth Rock.

 

[Warped Worlds]

45.6% - 53.8% is Magmortar's Thunderbolt to support Tentacruel. You have a solid chance to 2HKO with Sand even without Rocks. Support Cruel is a stall pokemon, Sand is a staple to stall teams.

Still pretty good, considering Physical Mix Ape's Stone Edge does 40.1% - 47.3% which requires two max damage rolls, and Sand to get a 2HKO assuming Rocks aren't up. You can also miss a Stone Edge.

Point is? Magmortar has a much better chance at 2HKOing support Tentacruel overall.

 

[panamaxis]

The wallbreaker set looks good to me CC + Tbolt is pretty cool and enough to warrant a set. "It can't hurt" to have the choice set up there so I'm approving both sets.

QC Approved (1/3)

 

[alex 67]

I wouldn't call that a solid chance. Anyway how often is Tentacruel at max health anyway? Maybe it had to take that Surf or that Fire Blast especially since it has no reliable recovery. But does that really make up for the inferior Attack, neutrality to Stealth Rock, versatility and most importantly Speed?

 

[Warped Worlds]

Well, that is why you run a Wisher on a stall team. You have more of a chance to 2HKO Magmortar than not with the aforementioned sand.

The main reason why you would run Magmortar for the niche it has in Thunderbolt. We all know Infernape and Heatran are better, but if your team just has excessive trouble with Bulky Tentacruel/Gyarados, Magmortar is the best choice.

Magmortar also has more special attack than Physical Mix Ape, which really stops physically bulky pokemon from countering you, which would counter Infernape after a -2 SpA drop from Overheat.

Point is we know Infernape and Heatran are better, but they do not completely outclass Magmortar.

 

[Kevin Garrett]

Approved (2/3)

 

[Setsuna]

QC Approved (3/3)

Now guys it's time to calm down. Any other post inciting others to continue with this whole argument will be deleted.

This is ready to be written. I've pointed user SOMALIA to carry out the task.

Thanks to Oglemi for bringing this to our attention.

 

[alex 67]

Flamethrower should get a mention or slash for reliability. I think Earthquake may deserve an AC also mentioning how it outspeeds and takes out Heatran.

 

[SOMALIA]

Done writing it up, Magmortar secures certain KO's with Fire Blast, most notably Gengar. I added Flametrhower in AC and OC.

 

[EonADS]

^Forgot Earthquake in AC or OC, it does deserve the mention as Heatran is the #1 OU Metagame threat. Also, note that Magmortar outspeeds Heatran where you mention Jolly Gyara / Mamoswine, since it's one of the reasons to use it over Heatran in the first place.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

SOMALIA finished writing this, so I'll add it to the queue after the following question (directed at QC) is answered.

I'm making this post because I'm kind of shocked that the Choice set got approved (not to stir back up the argument from before). I have a hard time believing that the Choice set can be considered good at all; SDS hit on most of my points pretty well in his first few posts, but I'll reiterate anyway. Weakness to SR, easy to wall within its STAB and easier to wall on one of its relatively weak coverage moves, poor bulk to switch into attacks, and a relatively low Speed stat that leaves it unable to catch a majority of the biggest threats in the metagame (fortunately it clears the Gyarados hurdle). I would never in a million years consider using the Pokemon as a Choice 'mon on a serious team, and that's without even comparing Magmortar to the couple dozen other OU pokemon that do the Choice role infinitely better. I think the only really viable set is the wallbreaker, and that one is OK to go on-site.

I'm especially concerned when the first QC approval for the Choice said was on reason of "why not?" If you guys are really sure of the effectiveness of the set, I'd like to hear about what makes it that much better than I understand it to be.

Anyway, keep it civil if this post does bring up the discussion again.

 

[alex 67]

SOMALIA finished writing this, so I'll add it to the queue after the following question (directed at QC) is answered.

I'm making this post because I'm kind of shocked that the Choice set got approved (not to stir back up the argument from before). I have a hard time believing that the Choice set can be considered good at all; SDS hit on most of my points pretty well in his first few posts, but I'll reiterate anyway. Weakness to SR, easy to wall within its STAB and easier to wall on one of its relatively weak coverage moves, poor bulk to switch into attacks, and a relatively low Speed stat that leaves it unable to catch a majority of the biggest threats in the metagame (fortunately it clears the Gyarados hurdle). I would never in a million years consider using the Pokemon as a Choice 'mon on a serious team, and that's without even comparing Magmortar to the couple dozen other OU pokemon that do the Choice role infinitely better. I think the only really viable set is the wallbreaker, and that one is OK to go on-site.

I'm especially concerned when the first QC approval for the Choice said was on reason of "why not?" If you guys are really sure of the effectiveness of the set, I'd like to hear about what makes it that much better than I understand it to be.

Anyway, keep it civil if this post does bring up the discussion again.

I agree that they suck shit but

"It can't hurt"

was the reason said. I sort of agree that it can't hurt to have it on site as it is Magmortar and it's page isn't cluttered at all.