Linked

[Chopin Alkaninoff]

TL; DR: A whole bunch of stuff beats Talonflame, and if it doesn't run Band then more stuff beats it. Don't run BB+Roost since then it's still walled by everything it's walled by in OU .-. While it does force you to run a counter to it, there are Pokemon that do this in every meta. If we banned everything that you needed to check or counter, the meta would only consist of Caterpie and Feebas. Talonflame does NOT make Grass, Bug, and Fighting types unviable, as long as you use them correctly and pack a counter to Talonflame. Talonflame is a great mon in this meta, keeping two playstyles in check (FakeTurn and Scarf-setup), which would otherwise run rampant. I think if we were to ban Talon, the meta would basically turn into "whose Scarfer is faster" as no priority would be strong enough to care about really. Ditto does NOT keep these Scarfers in check as it can only speed tie them (it does keep the Megas in check though). So in my opinion don't ban Talonflame.

While I agree with most of your comments, the bolded and underlined part is exactly why I need comments from the people after joining Talon-less tours. Does it really turn Linked into "whose Scarf set up sweeper is faster?" If it is, I have no reason to vote for ban. Right now, I'm leaning towards "no ban." Depending on the comments, I might change my decision.

Edit: also please post some replays when there is a Linked Talon-less tour, because I need to have the idea of the meta without bird.

 

[Knuckstrike]

I'd like to add to many of the comments in this thread that stealth rock is often forgotten when considering talonflame. Rocks mean talonflame only really has one switch, especially considering bb recoil. In a meta where defoggers are sparse and talon is a great mon, putting up rocks should be something to do quickly. Add this to the fact that talon can switch into basically nothing in linked and with good play you should be able to limit talon to a maximum of switching in once or twice.

 

[SpartanMalice]

Knuckstrike, a lot of Talons use the Bird + Roost variant, and most of them carry will-o-wisp, so yeah probably not the best solution. I'm sure everyone in this thread had considered rocks before.

 

[Knuckstrike]

Knuckstrike, a lot of Talons use the Bird + Roost variant, and most of them carry will-o-wisp, so yeah probably not the best solution. I'm sure everyone in this thread had considered rocks before.

BB+roost is, as already mentioned, beaten by everything it is in OU, including zapdos, gyarados, raikou, tyranitar, diancie and of course the always-counters rotom-w, slowbro and heatran. And I'm not mentioning the checks in thundurus, suicune and others. That set is not the broken one. The question here is if the two attacks set (basically a kangaskhan/talonflame mix) is broken and rendering mons or even archetypes useless. I think its two attacks set is hindered enough by rocks and recoil that it's not broken.

 

[Ghoul King]

BB+roost is, as already mentioned, beaten by everything it is in OU, including zapdos, gyarados, raikou, tyranitar, diancie and of course the always-counters rotom-w, slowbro and heatran. And I'm not mentioning the checks in thundurus, suicune and others. That set is not the broken one. The question here is if the two attacks set (basically a kangaskhan/talonflame mix) is broken and rendering mons or even archetypes useless. I think its two attacks set is hindered enough by rocks and recoil that it's not broken.

The question is not whether a specific set of Talonflame's is "too good", it's whether Talonflame is overcentralizing/sufficiently overcentralizing to justify a ban. The fact that Talonflame can run sets that are not particularly scared of Stealth Rock is relevant, because it's one more strike against the idea that Talonflame is a manageable threat on par with (Rather than far, far ahead of) everything else that is viable.

If Talonflame has one particularly obnoxious set that is provoking the suspect and multiple other viable sets that do not share issues with the suspect-worthy set, that is concerning.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

P

So I personally don't think Talon should be banned. In my opinion there are 4 things that are centralizing that have to be built around, and imo none are broken. These are FakeTurn, Scarf setup or DD mons, Flinchax, and priority (Talon being the forefront here). Linked is a very offensive meta, and while it is centralized, it's not just around Talon. Talon keeps the variety of Scarfers from overwhelming the meta, and no, Ditto does not do this--it can only speed tie. Talonflame can easily be beaten if you build and play correctly, and I can say I've never been swept by Talon (hell, the max number of kills it got was 1 lmao and I don't use Tran, MegaBro, Rotom-W, or a Rock type).
How to beat Talonflame:

Rock-types: They resist both its STABs, are generally physically bulky, and can KO back with their Rock STAB. The best would probably be Tyranitar (252+ Atk Choice Band Parental Bond Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Tyranitar: 118-139 (29.2 - 34.4%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery OR 252+ Atk Choice Band Parental Bond Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tyranitar: 162-190 (40 - 47%) -- guaranteed 3HKO if bulky offensive set), Rhyperior (252+ Atk Choice Band Parental Bond Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Rhyperior: 139-166 (32.1 - 38.3%) -- 1.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery), and Mega Diancie (Mega Diancie needs a safe switch in though, as it usually doens't invest in defenses and takes 67.2 - 79.6% damage uninvested). While the first two dislike burns, they can still oneshot Talon with Stone Edge. And no, Ground Natural Gift (which is the best one imo so you hit Tran) doesn't do much. It only does around 40% to TTar and Rhyperior has Solid Rock. If you run Grass, Water, or Fighting, that leaves you walled by other Pokemon instead. 252+ Atk Choice Band Parental Bond Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Relicanth: 139-165 (40.7 - 48.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO RELICANTH OP PLZ NERF Kabutops can also tank Talonflame's attacks and hit it hard with SD+Waterfall/Stone Edge or Stone Edge+Waterfall, outspeeding WoW in Rain. Regirock also exists and tanks Talonflame's hits all day (252+ Atk Choice Band Parental Bond Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Regirock: 76-90 (20.8 - 24.7%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery)

TankChomp: This is what I use and it's been working great. Again, it dislikes burns, but it gets the job done. Burned 0 Atk Stone Edge still does around 85% aka its ded after that and one round of Rocky Helmet/Rough Skin. Stealth Rock/Dragon Tail is another cool link and is the one I use. Dragon Tail does around 40% to Talon, so after Rocks and one round of Helmet/Skin damage its dead again (or its dead after using BB and AA getting the passive damage, losing health via recoil from BB, then getting killed by DTail)l

Ferrothorn: This loses to Flare Blitz and dislikes WoW, but it deals over 50% damage via 2 hits of Rocky Helmet/Iron Barbs and can Seed/Protect or Gyro Talon.

NOTE: One of these 3 (Ferro, Chomp, or a Rock-type) should be on most teams already, simply for the utility that Stealth Rock provides.

Mega Slowbro:

252+ Atk Choice Band Parental Bond Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Slowbro: 166-198 (42.1 - 50.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO

That is the absolute most Talonflame can do (and most usually run Acro, which is better imo). Acro does this:

252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Slowbro: 160-190 (40.6 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

What does MegaBro do back?

4 SpA Mega Slowbro Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Talonflame: 294-348 (98.9 - 117.1%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

Scald+Slack Off gets you back to around 50% if you switched in, otherwise, if you got a safe switch in, you're back at full pretty much. Or if you CM + Scald it's a guaranteed OHKO (duh lol).

Rotom-Wash:

252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird (175 BP) vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Rotom-W: 121-143 (39.9 - 47.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Parental Bond Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Rotom-W: 124-147 (40.9 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Talonflame: 336-396 (113.1 - 133.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Nuff said really, the calcs show it all. Rotom-W can tank Talon's strongest hits and OHKO back. Btw this is just the generic OU Rotom-W, running more Def or SpA is definitely an option.

Heatran: The best counter to non-Ground Natural Gift Talonflame. Enjoys eating Wisps and Blitzes, and can tank Brave Birds all day.

252+ Atk Choice Band Parental Bond Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Heatran: 121-144 (31.4 - 37.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

Or you can run less Defense. 92 EVs avoids the 2HKO from Band BB/AA after rocks:

252+ Atk Choice Band Parental Bond Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 92 Def Heatran: 153-180 (39.7 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

It OHKOs back with Ancient Power.

Now, you can say that a lot of these are worn down or KOed/neutered by the correct Natural Gift or WoW, but tbh, then they aren't defeated by the Band set I used, allowing them to tank more hits. This also allows other, less bulky but still decently bulky Pokemon to check Talon. All of them can beat Talon despite burns. Going back to what I said earlier about there being 4 main things that "centralize" Linked that every team must prepare for, Talonflame helps keep 2 of them in check. It is one stop to FakeTurn overwhelming the meta, as it can reliably revenge kill Infernape, Mienshao, and Ambipom, the 3 main FakeTurners. It also can revenge kill some of the main Scarfers, including Keldeo, Serperior, and Manaphy. I also don't think it makes Grass, Bug, and Fighting types unviable. I use Serperior and it is amazing, despite its huge Talon weakness. It can revenge kill many of the Pokemon in higher ranks such as Zard X, Keldeo, Quagsire, and Manaphy, and as long as you pack a Talon counter, it will perform exceptionally.

TL; DR: A whole bunch of stuff beats Talonflame, and if it doesn't run Band then more stuff beats it. Don't run BB+Roost since then it's still walled by everything it's walled by in OU .-. While it does force you to run a counter to it, there are Pokemon that do this in every meta. If we banned everything that you needed to check or counter, the meta would only consist of Caterpie and Feebas. Talonflame does NOT make Grass, Bug, and Fighting types unviable, as long as you use them correctly and pack a counter to Talonflame. Talonflame is a great mon in this meta, keeping two playstyles in check (FakeTurn and Scarf-setup), which would otherwise run rampant. I think if we were to ban Talon, the meta would basically turn into "whose Scarfer is faster" as no priority would be strong enough to care about really. Ditto does NOT keep these Scarfers in check as it can only speed tie them (it does keep the Megas in check though). So in my opinion don't ban Talonflame.

See i've discussed these counters with you and others in chat, and although i don't think the fact that talonflame has two viable counters is the strongest argument for banning bird it is a strong one. Im on an ipad now so i'll probably edit this ltr;

Rock types

The main reasons rock types aren't the strongest counters to talonflame is a couple of reasons. First of all, most og these rock types are unviable. If we're using regirock just to counter talonflame it should be pretty obvious that its centralising. Tyranitar isn't unviable, far from it, however physically defensive Tyranitar is consider all of his weaknesses are mainly physical he'd have a hard time walling any physical attacker in the tier. A physically defensive version of Tyranitar can check talonflame, but its considered unviable and can easily be widdled with will o wisp or u-turn. Rhyperior is more viable and a great pokemon to use in the tier, especially on trick room and against trick room. However Rhyperior is crippled by Will o Wisp and leaves it vulnerable for the rest of the game, though it can safely switch into talonflame, but it will be on a timer as it lacks reliable recovery.

Tank chomp

Tank chomp is a pain because of recoil and rocky helmet + rough skin damage, but it can still be beaten. stallbreaker talonflame just wins and offensive versions can cripple it with will o wisp for the rest of the game, and again, it lacks reliable recovery.

Ferrothorn

Flare blitz

Mega Slowbro

252+ Atk Choice Band Parental Bond Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Slowbro: 166-198 (42.1 - 50.2%) -- 91.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Rotom-W

252+ Atk Choice Band Parental Bond Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Rotom-W: 124-147 (40.9 - 48.5%) -- 8.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Wouldn't exactly call it a counter, especially consider more rotom-w run scarf now for volt switch + will o wisp, though not in that order. It's a shaky check that relies on hydro pump. Any prior damage and it becomes a 2HKO

Heatran

See this is the closest to a counter, if you run a physically defensive heatran with stone edge (lol) you've got talonflame covered, great. but you're not using physically defensive heatran lol. with stone edge. That's centralising as fuck. Just because it counters an S rank mon doesn't give this set a viability, truly. Never mind the fact that it has no reliable recovery

Now you said you were afraid the banning would run ramped and I don't think so. We're not suspect testing talonflame because it has very few counters, though that is a contributing factor. The main issue I have with talonflame is how damn restrictive it is towards team building, Mega Heracross, Beedril, Gallade, Gyarados, Altaria, Charizard are all megas that can no longer sweep because of talonflame, no matter how much they boost they will die, that is ridiculous. And it's of course not just megas, but i've already posted a list of the baffling amount of pokemon talonflame OHKOs

 

[The Immortal]

Unrelated to any current discussion

Hack_Guy I just thought of something. What if the order of Linked moves was determined by which one you choose? You choose move 1 and the order is 1, 2. You choose move 2 and the order is 2, 1.

y/y

 

[TheBlueFiretruck]

The Immortal that would boost offense even more. Although it's an interesting idea, I don't believe it's a favorable one for a balanced meta.

 

[MK]

I have found my next Trick Room beast: meet Dragalge.

Look at this Monster

With the release of ORAS, Dragalge found itself shooting into the upper tiers because of its Hidden Ability, Adaptability. In Linked, this equals ridiculous damage output. Specs Adaptability-boosted Sludge Waves and Dragon Pulses 2HKOs almost the entire metagame, barring immunities. Set:

Set

Dragalge (M) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 30 SpA / 0 Spe
- Sludge Wave
- Dragon Pulse
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Haze

Dual STAB is amazing, Hidden Power Fire roasts Ferrothorn, and Haze can be an emergency stop to a boosting Pokemon and limit it to at most +2 (or +3 with Manaphy, and assuming Trick Room is up, it's 2HKO'ed anyways).
Mosts resists aren't spared.

POWER

252+ SpA Choice Specs Dragalge Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 456-536 (115.7 - 136%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Dragalge Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Quagsire: 264-312 (67 - 79.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Dragalge Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Quagsire: 147-174 (37.3 - 44.1%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
67+37>100 :D
252+ SpA Choice Specs Dragalge Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gliscor: 237-280 (66.9 - 79%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
252+ SpA Choice Specs Dragalge Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gliscor: 132-156 (37.2 - 44%) -- 25.6% chance to 3HKO after Poison Heal
Same as Quagsire
252+ SpA Choice Specs Dragalge Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 120 SpD Amoonguss: 195-229 (45.1 - 53%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Dragalge Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 120 SpD Amoonguss: 217-256 (50.2 - 59.2%) -- 78.1% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
Almost a Guaranteed OHKO. Guaranteed with Stealth Rock.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Dragalge Dragon Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Tyranitar in Sand: 106-126 (31 - 36.9%) -- 72.3% chance to 3HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Dragalge Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Tyranitar in Sand: 59-70 (17.3 - 20.5%) -- possible 5HKO
A 2HKO, guaranteed with Stealth Rock. While it can do a lot back, it's revenge killed easily.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Dragalge Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 186-220 (46 - 54.4%) -- 6.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Dragalge Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 208-246 (51.4 - 60.8%) -- 92.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
2HKO with Stealth Rock.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Dragalge Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 212+ SpD Rotom-W: 133-157 (43.7 - 51.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Dragalge Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 212+ SpD Rotom-W: 148-175 (48.6 - 57.5%) -- 49.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(EDIT: ALL MY CALCS TO THIS POINT WERE WITH POISON POINT >_<. THEY'RE MORE LIKELY OHKOS/2HKOS.)
Zapdos: OHKO'ed.
Shuckle: 2HKO'ed. Sticky Web only helps your team.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Dragalge Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Cresselia: 198-234 (44.5 - 52.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Dragalge Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Cresselia: 222-262 (50 - 59%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Almost a guaranteed 2HKO. Guaranteed with Stealth Rock.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Dragalge Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 212+ SpD Jellicent: 180-212 (44.5 - 52.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Dragalge Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 212+ SpD Jellicent: 101-119 (25 - 29.4%) -- guaranteed 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
2HKO.
Slowbro is OHKO'ed.

Also, I saw a team with a pretty good gimmick that almost won.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/linked-240934059
Basically, the premise is to stack hazards, and then use linked shuffling moves spread the damage around. Could there be a way to make that team better?

 

[The Immortal]

>implying we can have a balanced linked meta

 

[Imperator Romanum]

>implying we can have a balanced linked meta

It would be more fun to link your moves 2 and 2 together imo.

 

[Chopin Alkaninoff]

If the original Mystery Dungeon does what The Immortal said (order of Linked move determined which one you choose) then I'll support it. Seriously, I don't know what difference would it make with the usual move 1 then 2 order. I don't think it makes the meta more offensive because I think it's practically the same, being two moves used in one turn.

Edit:

Now you said you were afraid the banning would run ramped and I don't think so. We're not suspect testing talonflame because it has very few counters, though that is a contributing factor. The main issue I have with talonflame is how damn restrictive it is towards team building, Mega Heracross, Beedril, Gallade, Gyarados, Altaria, Charizard are all megas that can no longer sweep because of talonflame, no matter how much they boost they will die, that is ridiculous. And it's of course not just megas, but i've already posted a list of the baffling amount of pokemon talonflame OHKOs

Those pokes you listed cannot sweep not because of Talonflame. They cannot sweep because they cannot hold an item called Choice Scarf. The fact that something WILL outspeed you even after a Dragon Dance means that there will always be something that stops your sweep besides Unaware pokes.

Speaking of Choice Scarf, it's currently more centralizing than Talonflame. Almost every non-Trick Room teams carries it. It's one of the main reason I am leaning towards no ban on Talonflame, it's to limit Choice Scarf users. Because of this, I need proof that Linked is more than just "Trick Room and Choice Scarf: the meta" in a Talon-less metagame. That's why I need comments from you guys after joining Talon-less tours in PS, as I stated in my post earlier.

 

[Yazma]

you don't have to ban talonflame. You can also cripple it, by banning BB or gale wings on talonflame...

 

[Imperator Romanum]

If the original Mystery Dungeon does what The Immortal said (order of Linked move determined which one you choose) then I'll support it. Seriously, I don't know what difference would it make with the usual move 1 then 2 order. I don't think it makes the meta more offensive because I think it's practically the same, being two moves used in one turn.

Edit:



Those pokes you listed cannot sweep not because of Talonflame. They cannot sweep because they cannot hold an item called Choice Scarf. The fact that something WILL outspeed you even after a Dragon Dance means that there will always be something that stops your sweep besides Unaware pokes.

Speaking of Choice Scarf, it's currently more centralizing than Talonflame. Almost every non-Trick Room teams carries it. It's one of the main reason I am leaning towards no ban on Talonflame, it's to limit Choice Scarf users. Because of this, I need proof that Linked is more than just "Trick Room and Choice Scarf: the meta" in a Talon-less metagame. That's why I need comments from you guys after joining Talon-less tours in PS, as I stated in my post earlier.

You're probably right. I'll leave it up to you guys.

So... item clause?

 

[M'joe'ra]

you don't have to ban talonflame. You can also cripple it, by banning BB or gale wings on talonflame...

In order to keep as much simplicity as we can, we ban either the entire pokemon or don't ban anything at all. This works in the same way that greninja and blaziken worked. Without a certain ability or move they were definitely not worthy of being banned but they did have them and the people in charge of bannings banned both of them entirely for the sake of simplicity. Unless I am mistaken hack is taking the same approach on banning pokemon in this meta. The reason why we banned super fang + seismic toss, protect + a move and the rest of those things is because they could be found on and were broken on more than one pokemon. If we had found that for example super fang + seismic toss was found on only one pokemon then maybe we wouldve just banned that one pokemon or not banned it at all.

 

[Chopin Alkaninoff]

You're probably right. I'll leave it up to you guys.

So... item clause?

Instead of item clause, I'm thinking of Choice item clause. Choice items are the most buffed items in Linked because pokes can use boosting move while locked in a move while normally you can't. If we limit just Scarf, Band and Specs are going to take its place. So, limiting them all would be better.

I'm thinking of only two Choice items per team. This way, you won't nerf those defensive teams with multiple Leftovers.

 

[nimbosa]

choice item clause sounds good to me.

question: people keep mentioning stone edge as the best way for heatran to beat talonflame, but what about ancientpower? same pp, more acc, same power at 108 SAttk EVs with timid, which is less investment than a lot of heatrans have. is there anything else you'd want to hit with a rock move that stone edge hits harder? or did everyone just forget about ancientpower on account of it being a bad move normally

 

[Imperator Romanum]

choice item clause sounds good to me.

question: people keep mentioning stone edge as the best way for heatran to beat talonflame, but what about ancientpower? same pp, more acc, same power at 108 SAttk EVs with timid, which is less investment than a lot of heatrans have. is there anything else you'd want to hit with a rock move that stone edge hits harder? or did everyone just forget about ancientpower on account of it being a bad move normally

0 Atk Heatran Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Charizard Y: 324-384 (109 - 129.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

4 SpA Heatran Ancient Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard Y: 196-232 (65.9 - 78.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I'd assume that.

Or this

0 Atk Heatran Stone Edge vs. 132 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-T: 158-188 (47.5 - 56.6%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO

4 SpA Heatran Ancient Power vs. 132 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Tornadus-T: 80-96 (24 - 28.9%) -- 99% chance to 4HKO

 

[Nmone]

I'm aboard on the TalonBan/suspect.

But something seems to always bother me. When I'm team building, I honestly can't think of any other fire type, than Heatran. What are some other fire types that you guiz seen on the ladder that was at least half-decent?

Edit: besides Zard-X/Y

 

[TheBlueFiretruck]

I'm aboard on the TalonBan/suspect.

But something seems to always bother me. When I'm team building, I honestly can't think of any other fire type, than Heatran. What are some other fire types that you guiz seen on the ladder that was at least half-decent?

Edit: besides Zard-X/Y

I really enjoy using either Specs or Scarf Infernape. It hits really hard with dual stabs and has pretty amazing coverage. Of course it loses to Talonflame but that's the same as pretty much every offensive threat in the tier. It dandily carries U-turn as well, granting momentum and hitting its main counter, Slowbro, super-effectively. I'm sure an Entei set could work alright, and Victini has been used for a while too.

 

[xJownage]

Entei is meh after protectspeed got banned, but victini is beastly with fusion bolt + Flare (in that order so stab base 200 fusion flare). Fire types are pretty lacking in general, not just in linked, but in competitive pokemon. :L

 

[ScorrchingTheaph]

I'm aboard on the TalonBan/suspect.

But something seems to always bother me. When I'm team building, I honestly can't think of any other fire type, than Heatran. What are some other fire types that you guiz seen on the ladder that was at least half-decent?

Edit: besides Zard-X/Y

Entei can still use endure+extremespeed, which is somewhat decent (arcanine can also do it), but dnite is better imo. victini can also do vcreate+uturn, but the fusion set is better because i designed it. it can also run trickroom+uturn if you want to bluff another set. Infernape can also run the faketurn set. Overall Talonflame is still the best fire type (unless its banned, then i will be sad)

 

[Chopin Alkaninoff]

With the permission of Hack_Guy in PS, we are also discussing Item Clause for Choice items, which are currently more centralizing than Talonflame in Linked. Every non-Trick Room team carries it. So, no more "Talonflame keeps Scarfers in check" argument, because we'll also deal with the Choice items issue.

Choice items are the most buffed items in Linked, because you can boost while choice locked in it here while normally you can't. It also buffs both attacks in a link by x1.5 without almost no drawbacks if you hold Choice Band/Specs, making things unwallable (Specs Kingdra in Rain 1HKOs Keldeo even with resist). At least Life Orb gives you recoil, 20% if you use two attacks, while you can say Choice items has almost no drawbacks here in Linked, because you can use two moves.

We decided to discuss this at the same time as Talonflame suspect so that there will be no more "Talonflame prevents Scarfers run rampant" argument (and Talonflame's best item is CHOICE Band). So, do you think something needs to be done to limit Choice items in Linked?

 

[SpartanMalice]

I sometimes encounter teams that are entirely either Scarf Faketurn, Scarf Fake Tears + Screech + Volt Switch/Fake Out, while the latter is a gimmick and easier to handle, faketurn, while it has plenty of options such as inner focus, extremespeed, basically finishes off your team with little skill if you don't have a mon that can bypass its priority, such as Prankster T-Wave and the like, and hazards (but how will you be able to lay hazards if you flinch every turn, hm?). Plus Inner Focus forces Dragonite to lose Multiscale, and since it is slower than most faketurners, they can kill it with a super effective move. It's not an unbeatable strategy, but it is quite an annoying one, uncompetitive and not creative. So yeah, I'd vote for Item clause on Choice items. I never use more of the same item on my teams anyway no matter the tier, unless it's LO/leftovers, so it doesn't make a difference to me.

 

[Nmone]

Pink Lemonade (Celebi) @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 148 Def / 108 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute/Nasty Plot/Swords Dance
- Baton Pass
- Recover
- Giga Drain

For anyone who hasn't tried out celebi yet, you're honestly missing out. This has to be the most successful(grass type)baton passer ever. Celebi may have some glaring weaknesses, Dark, Flying, and ghost(which all three are massively even MORE common in this meta). But it resists ground, water, fighting, and electric whom also became popular attacking types. This makes it able to switch in on some key mons and usually force them out or can sponger their atks enough to get a sub off and pass it. Such as ferro, keldeo(unless scald burns D: ), almost any, if not all variants of Lando-T, Serp(LS+Giga set), Ampharos, it complelety walls any and all Leech Seed+Sub user(Whim for an example)etc. It can "almost" care less about status thanks to natural cure. This Mon is like, on 85% of my teams because of how useful it is to have sub and pass it to begin a sweep or get a quick NP/SD off and ditch it to a sweeper.

You can customize the Ev spread to your liking or what mons you what it to check/counter. Enjoy!

EDIT: I'm always forgetting to mention some _-_ but yea, with talon gon Choice items(Scarf in particular) are going to be pretty rampent. I mean why not? It did gain a huge buff being able to use 2 moves at once.
So, I support item clause as well.