Comments in Bolded italics
Last edited:
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Inverse Battle Viability Rankings
- Thread starter OM
- Start date
Quotes auto-italicize. That doesn't work for delineating your responses.
I can definitely agree with Tauros not being that great and Mega Beedrill being amazing. Raikou has... some utility, but its typing is quite vulnerable. Still, Electric offense is useful against Grass and Ground types, both of which are very meta-relevant.
I can definitely agree with Tauros not being that great and Mega Beedrill being amazing. Raikou has... some utility, but its typing is quite vulnerable. Still, Electric offense is useful against Grass and Ground types, both of which are very meta-relevant.
Now I'm sad, everyone like mega gallade
sin(pi)
lucky n bad
I've never used a weather team here, but I'm fairly certain that each of those has no niche other than setting weather - the immunity abilities are cute and all, but outclassed. I can't build weather well at all so I'm not really in a position to judge the effectiveness of either playstyle in the meta, but I think they should be ranked based on how good Sun/Rain are (Sun seems better in theory, with Grass being so good and having access to Sleep Powder + mixed attackers which can actually break chanslugg).
I fiddled around with weather pre-ORAS, so this is probably out of date, but I found Sun passable and Rain decently viable, though not amazing. While Grass types are great in Inverse, type-wise, the actual Pokemon tend to have limited movepools and sub-par stats, whereas Fire is a badly flawed type that among other points struggles against the amazing Ice type. (Castform-Sunny is the only Fire type to have access to any Ice moves better than Hidden Power Ice, and Castform is not viable at all) Mamoswine -which is meta-relevant- is a hard stop to many potential Sun sweepers and can retaliate with STAB super effective hits, whether Ground for Grass types or Ice for Fire types. Thick Fat Walrein is another example that Sun just hates.
Ninetales is depressing outside of setting Sun, as well. If you're thinking of using it for Flashfire, Typhlosion is almost literally 100% superior, bar maybe the part where Ninetales has Nasty Plot and Typhlosion has no boosting. (But Ninetales doesn't get Eruption, either) I'm not sure it has any place on the VR outside of its Sun-setting potential.
Politoed is actually a passable Pokemon in its own right. Choice Specs Drizzle can be a good way to switch into Grass types and get out nutty damage and fish for Burns via Scald, Perish Song can be used to try to stall break (back in the day I used it as a check to Trick-choice Gothitelle, which often thought it could switch into Politoed and Calm Mind+Rest off Scalds), it's bulky enough that Rest+Sleep Talk is workable and it only really needs Scald+Ice Beam to have most of the meta covered, etc. C+ or B-something for non-Rain use?
Rain gets a leg up from things like Armaldo suddenly being a lot more viable. Resistant to Water, decent offensive typing with good coverage, double speed in Rain? Nice! Main flaw with Armaldo is that Normal is so strong, and in particular Fake Out is a huge problem for it, but Armaldo is just one of several Rain Pokemon that is suddenly actually cool -remember Beartic? It's actually usable too! Dry Skin Jynx? Yes, it actually puts in work. Ultimately Rain's main flaw is that Ice is an amazing type that hits basically everything you'd like to use fairly hard. The other flaw is that you'll have to actually account for Ground types, as while Water/Ice is actually surprisingly good coverage overall (Among other points, most Pokemon with Water immunity are vulnerable to Ice), they both struggle against Ground types. If you can account for those flaws properly though -Heliolisk is a great support for dealing with crap like Hippowdon, for instance- Rain was actually fairly viable in XY.
Note that Rain has several tools for breaking Chanslugg, including that Politoed itself can pressure Chansey with Perish Song and threaten Avalugg with Scald/Ice Beam, Jynx has Nasty Plot+Psyshock+Ice Beam and Dry Skin helps it last in the face of offensive pressure from the two (It also gets Wish and Heal Bell, so it can actively heal itself and also shrug off stuff like Toxic), and Beartic with Swords Dance is no joke. (+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Beartic Icicle Crash vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 328-385 (83.4 - 97.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery)
Not sure how Rain's viability was impacted by ORAS, though. I never tried weather after ORAS hit. I'd guess that it overall made it a little better, but I wouldn't bet money.
Ninetales is depressing outside of setting Sun, as well. If you're thinking of using it for Flashfire, Typhlosion is almost literally 100% superior, bar maybe the part where Ninetales has Nasty Plot and Typhlosion has no boosting. (But Ninetales doesn't get Eruption, either) I'm not sure it has any place on the VR outside of its Sun-setting potential.
Politoed is actually a passable Pokemon in its own right. Choice Specs Drizzle can be a good way to switch into Grass types and get out nutty damage and fish for Burns via Scald, Perish Song can be used to try to stall break (back in the day I used it as a check to Trick-choice Gothitelle, which often thought it could switch into Politoed and Calm Mind+Rest off Scalds), it's bulky enough that Rest+Sleep Talk is workable and it only really needs Scald+Ice Beam to have most of the meta covered, etc. C+ or B-something for non-Rain use?
Rain gets a leg up from things like Armaldo suddenly being a lot more viable. Resistant to Water, decent offensive typing with good coverage, double speed in Rain? Nice! Main flaw with Armaldo is that Normal is so strong, and in particular Fake Out is a huge problem for it, but Armaldo is just one of several Rain Pokemon that is suddenly actually cool -remember Beartic? It's actually usable too! Dry Skin Jynx? Yes, it actually puts in work. Ultimately Rain's main flaw is that Ice is an amazing type that hits basically everything you'd like to use fairly hard. The other flaw is that you'll have to actually account for Ground types, as while Water/Ice is actually surprisingly good coverage overall (Among other points, most Pokemon with Water immunity are vulnerable to Ice), they both struggle against Ground types. If you can account for those flaws properly though -Heliolisk is a great support for dealing with crap like Hippowdon, for instance- Rain was actually fairly viable in XY.
Note that Rain has several tools for breaking Chanslugg, including that Politoed itself can pressure Chansey with Perish Song and threaten Avalugg with Scald/Ice Beam, Jynx has Nasty Plot+Psyshock+Ice Beam and Dry Skin helps it last in the face of offensive pressure from the two (It also gets Wish and Heal Bell, so it can actively heal itself and also shrug off stuff like Toxic), and Beartic with Swords Dance is no joke. (+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Beartic Icicle Crash vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 328-385 (83.4 - 97.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery)
Not sure how Rain's viability was impacted by ORAS, though. I never tried weather after ORAS hit. I'd guess that it overall made it a little better, but I wouldn't bet money.
sin(pi)
lucky n bad
Mamoswine loses to every relevant Sun sweeper because they're all part-Poison type, and while you get into 4MSS with Solarbeam/Weather Ball|HP Fire/Sludge Bomb/Growth/Koff/Sleep Powder, it means that it's certainly not a reliable check to any of them (especially with Sleep Powder).
One fairly large problem with weather is that it struggles with P2 + Chanlugg, aka the best and most common defensive core. Sun handles this a lot better since Victreebel gets Koff and has the stats to go physical/mixed.
...I'm now tempted to build sun, dammit.
One fairly large problem with weather is that it struggles with P2 + Chanlugg, aka the best and most common defensive core. Sun handles this a lot better since Victreebel gets Koff and has the stats to go physical/mixed.
...I'm now tempted to build sun, dammit.
The problem is that Mamoswine can lead against a Sun team and basically automatically grab a kill, and then just switch out once Victreebel or whoever revenges in, as neither of your Sun setters can do much of anything to it and just not leading with your Sun setter is dangerous in its own right, especially if you have something happen like you lead with Victreebel in expectation of Mamoswine and they don't lead with Mamoswine. (This is exactly the kind of trouble I struggled with when I tried out Sun back in XY)
Its strong Ice Shard, though limited in use against Grass sweepers, can also allow it to finish off your generally fast-but-fragile Pokemon. I particularly ran into trouble from it ripping off more than 50% of Heliolisk's health... but even against Grass type sweepers it could let it finish off weakened ones.
Again, Rain doesn't really struggle with Chanslugg, nor does it really struggle with Porygon2.
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Beartic Shadow Claw vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Porygon2: 221-260 (59 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Icicle Crash is only slightly weaker, and still gets the 2HKO if it doesn't miss (While having a chance of causing a Flinch, so that's nice), so Beartic doesn't even necessarily need to bother with Shadow Claw coverage if it would rather have the moveslot for Aqua Jet or something.
This is one good Rain Pokemon that the entire core is threatened by after one turn of setup. Hydration Accelgor is also somewhat viable for Rain, and can lure out and Knock Off Porygon2/Chansey, and ORAS even gave it Water Shuriken to have a Rain-boosted move if you care. I tended to find Accelgor was one of the lower-performing members of my team, but I felt that was more a consequence of how most Inverse Ladder teams are offense-slanted -Hydration Accelgor in a Rain team is actually an interesting stallbreaker.
Its strong Ice Shard, though limited in use against Grass sweepers, can also allow it to finish off your generally fast-but-fragile Pokemon. I particularly ran into trouble from it ripping off more than 50% of Heliolisk's health... but even against Grass type sweepers it could let it finish off weakened ones.
Again, Rain doesn't really struggle with Chanslugg, nor does it really struggle with Porygon2.
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Beartic Shadow Claw vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Porygon2: 221-260 (59 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Icicle Crash is only slightly weaker, and still gets the 2HKO if it doesn't miss (While having a chance of causing a Flinch, so that's nice), so Beartic doesn't even necessarily need to bother with Shadow Claw coverage if it would rather have the moveslot for Aqua Jet or something.
This is one good Rain Pokemon that the entire core is threatened by after one turn of setup. Hydration Accelgor is also somewhat viable for Rain, and can lure out and Knock Off Porygon2/Chansey, and ORAS even gave it Water Shuriken to have a Rain-boosted move if you care. I tended to find Accelgor was one of the lower-performing members of my team, but I felt that was more a consequence of how most Inverse Ladder teams are offense-slanted -Hydration Accelgor in a Rain team is actually an interesting stallbreaker.
Ninetales seems like a C~ rank to me, while Politoed seems like a B or B- to me. Ninetales is actually pretty decent as a Sun setter in Inverse, but it's still underwhelming outside of that (Has a niche, outside of that is iffy), while Politoed can be viable all by itself with Choice Specs sets and the like, but isn't the kind of generally amazing 'mon that can fit into most any team.
I... haven't actually used or fought Volcanion in Inverse as yet. Dunno where it belongs.
Compared to Standard, it has three painful double weaknesses, with Ice in particular being torture since Ice is such a fantastic type all around (Yeah, sure, you're going to switch in on Avalugg and scare it out, not: 0 Atk Avalugg Avalanche vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Volcanion: 508-600 (139.5 - 164.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO), and being weak to Bug isn't exactly a wonderful situation either, since U-Turn is so huge and Mega Beedrill so meta-relevant. Resisting Electric, Ground, and Rock might give it a niche on some teams as that combination or resists is legitimately unusual in Inverse, I guess? In total it has twice as many weaknesses as resistances, and half its weaknesses are double weaknesses.
Offensively, its twin STABs are a lot more reliable -no one type resists both Water and Fire in Inverse. There are type combinations that resist both, such as Ground/Ice and Ground/Steel but... well, anything that resists Fire and Water in Inverse is automatically weak to Poison, and Volcanion has Sludge Wave. (Fire, Rock, and Ground are the only types that resist Water, and Fire and Rock are both weak to Fire. As such, anything that resists both must needs be a Ground type, and Grass and Fairy are no help here, with Grass being weak to Water and Fairy providing no relevant resistances at all) As such, something like Choice Specs Steam Eruption/Fire Blast/Sludge Wave/whatever is already perfect coverage bar maybe some Pokemon with Abilities to provide immunity to Fire or Water. (Note that no Flashfire Pokemon has a type resistant to Poison. I guess Maractus or Cacturne with Water Absorb/Storm Drain is technically a wall to that set?) Add in Earth Power and there's basically nothing left to wall you bar, you know, Chansey.
Scarf could be a great revenge killer, too, with such a set.
Overall though, it's hampered by its severe weaknesses, tending to restrict it to a glass cannon sort of role, and mostly an anti-offense one. Since it has no tools to break Chansey by itself, it's not even all that relevant as a stallbreaker. It doesn't have Taunt or anything.
It has some weird utility moves like Haze, as well, so theoretically you could maybe use it to shut down setup sweepers or something I guess.
Overall, though, it seems more a way to either revenge fast offense (Scarf) or rip up bulky offense. (Specs or maybe Life Orb)
Compared to Standard, it has three painful double weaknesses, with Ice in particular being torture since Ice is such a fantastic type all around (Yeah, sure, you're going to switch in on Avalugg and scare it out, not: 0 Atk Avalugg Avalanche vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Volcanion: 508-600 (139.5 - 164.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO), and being weak to Bug isn't exactly a wonderful situation either, since U-Turn is so huge and Mega Beedrill so meta-relevant. Resisting Electric, Ground, and Rock might give it a niche on some teams as that combination or resists is legitimately unusual in Inverse, I guess? In total it has twice as many weaknesses as resistances, and half its weaknesses are double weaknesses.
Offensively, its twin STABs are a lot more reliable -no one type resists both Water and Fire in Inverse. There are type combinations that resist both, such as Ground/Ice and Ground/Steel but... well, anything that resists Fire and Water in Inverse is automatically weak to Poison, and Volcanion has Sludge Wave. (Fire, Rock, and Ground are the only types that resist Water, and Fire and Rock are both weak to Fire. As such, anything that resists both must needs be a Ground type, and Grass and Fairy are no help here, with Grass being weak to Water and Fairy providing no relevant resistances at all) As such, something like Choice Specs Steam Eruption/Fire Blast/Sludge Wave/whatever is already perfect coverage bar maybe some Pokemon with Abilities to provide immunity to Fire or Water. (Note that no Flashfire Pokemon has a type resistant to Poison. I guess Maractus or Cacturne with Water Absorb/Storm Drain is technically a wall to that set?) Add in Earth Power and there's basically nothing left to wall you bar, you know, Chansey.
Scarf could be a great revenge killer, too, with such a set.
Overall though, it's hampered by its severe weaknesses, tending to restrict it to a glass cannon sort of role, and mostly an anti-offense one. Since it has no tools to break Chansey by itself, it's not even all that relevant as a stallbreaker. It doesn't have Taunt or anything.
It has some weird utility moves like Haze, as well, so theoretically you could maybe use it to shut down setup sweepers or something I guess.
Overall, though, it seems more a way to either revenge fast offense (Scarf) or rip up bulky offense. (Specs or maybe Life Orb)
sin(pi)
lucky n bad
^Agree w/ that fwiw
I'm gonna make a couple of nominations, would like to hear people's thoughts on them.
Breloom to S: Spore. Spore is stupidly good and it's insanely hard to switch into this thing, it has great coverage with its STABs and can run a couple of sets well (PH, LO, Sash - I personally think PH is trash but it's pretty common). It does have guaranteed counters ie Gogoat and Miltank (which are both fairly decent in their own right), but more or less everything else loses to Spore/STABs - Grass types can't switch in to absorb Spore because Bullet Seed destroys them.
Hoopa-U to A+/S: Again, but arguably worse - literally every single mon in the tier is 2HKO'd by this thing's STABs alone (with the possible exception of the Gengar line). It's even better than it is in standard because of this (the only mon that resists its STABs is the aforementioned Gengar line, which is 4x weak to all three of Hoopa's best coverage moves - Drain Punch/Focus Blast, Signal Beam and Gunk Shot, and isn't exactly known for being bulky). I know people have called for a ban on this but I think there are possibly other candidates worth looking at first/as well.
Cresselia to B+/lower: I can't think of a reason I'd use this over Avalugg/Meloetta/Chansey/P2, depending on what it wanted to do. Its best niche is switching in on Mamoswine better than anything else in the tier but that's about all it does that isn't outclassed (Melo is a better CM sweeper, Avalugg is a better physical wall, Chansey is a better special wall, P2 is a better mixed wall unless you're fearful of Koff).
Ursaring to B/B+: It 2HKOs the entire tier while unboosted - yes, this includes Avalugg a small portion of the time - but suffers from being slow as hell and hating chip damage. It also gets SD to boost its power to insane levels. If Guts didn't require it to take chip damage I'd recommend this for A at the very least.
I'm gonna make a couple of nominations, would like to hear people's thoughts on them.
Breloom to S: Spore. Spore is stupidly good and it's insanely hard to switch into this thing, it has great coverage with its STABs and can run a couple of sets well (PH, LO, Sash - I personally think PH is trash but it's pretty common). It does have guaranteed counters ie Gogoat and Miltank (which are both fairly decent in their own right), but more or less everything else loses to Spore/STABs - Grass types can't switch in to absorb Spore because Bullet Seed destroys them.
Hoopa-U to A+/S: Again, but arguably worse - literally every single mon in the tier is 2HKO'd by this thing's STABs alone (with the possible exception of the Gengar line). It's even better than it is in standard because of this (the only mon that resists its STABs is the aforementioned Gengar line, which is 4x weak to all three of Hoopa's best coverage moves - Drain Punch/Focus Blast, Signal Beam and Gunk Shot, and isn't exactly known for being bulky). I know people have called for a ban on this but I think there are possibly other candidates worth looking at first/as well.
Cresselia to B+/lower: I can't think of a reason I'd use this over Avalugg/Meloetta/Chansey/P2, depending on what it wanted to do. Its best niche is switching in on Mamoswine better than anything else in the tier but that's about all it does that isn't outclassed (Melo is a better CM sweeper, Avalugg is a better physical wall, Chansey is a better special wall, P2 is a better mixed wall unless you're fearful of Koff).
Ursaring to B/B+: It 2HKOs the entire tier while unboosted - yes, this includes Avalugg a small portion of the time - but suffers from being slow as hell and hating chip damage. It also gets SD to boost its power to insane levels. If Guts didn't require it to take chip damage I'd recommend this for A at the very least.
Lcass4919
The Xatu Warrior
just a small tiny nitpick, but this is using avalanche with 120 base power, which is not true, as avalanche only has 120 when its been attacked, otherwise its just 60:
0 Atk Avalugg Avalanche vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Volcanion: 256-304 (70.3 - 83.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
its...still not safe at all and practically gets decimated, but at least it can tank ONE safely. its kinda like dialga in that it suffers from a shit ton of common weaknesses, but when your hit by its stabs...watch out. enless your chansey.
There's also Magic Bouncers, like Mega Absol, which resists Mach Punch and vaporizes it with Knock Off or Sucker Punch. Mega Absol is actually pretty decent in Inverse, as its Sucker Punch sweep can threaten entire teams. It only needs coverage for Ghosts and Psychic types -which Superpower handles right there, as most of those have poor Defense in addition to being Fighting weak. This frees it up to either run both Knock Off and Sucker Punch alongside Swords Dance or to fit in some utility move (Taunt, for instance) instead of running two Dark attacks.
I don't think Breloom belongs in S, though. Definitely A+, it does so many useful things like OHKO Mega Beedrill with Mach Punch, but Spore's relevance against offense teams is fairly low and stall can easily mitigate it by carrying both Hippowdon and Avalugg -whichever one gets Spored, the other switches in and Roar/Whirlwinds out or KOs with Earthquake Breloom, and honestly having both is good practice on any strongly stall-oriented team since there's not that many viable walls in Inverse in the first place and they're complimentary.
Haven't seen it enough to say. I think its Speed tier is too problematic for it to go in S, though, especially since it also hates the Normal spam of the meta. Breloom vaporizes it with Mach Punch, for that matter.
Its advantage is that it's a win condition. Physically Defensive with Calm Mind can sweep the meta on Psyshock alone, so any team fool enough to carry no phazing and no Toxic is in serious trouble. It can be broken through by powerful Fighting type attackers as well, but that's actually about it outside of the Toxic and phazing points. (Inverse does Cresselia huge favors overall, with Knock Off being resisted and U-Turn being resisted as well) Meloetta hits harder and is a whole 5 points faster, but it's considerably less bulky. Admittedly the Normal typing makes it less vulnerable to Fighting type attackers, but it's still a lot easier to break Meloetta by attacking it.
Cresselia is one of the best win conditions in the entire meta -Toxic is often forgone entirely by teams because dropping it is such a small cost, and if you can clear out whatever powerful Fighting attackers the enemy has, at that point Cresselia can often sweep teams by itself as a result.
Ursaring is an amazing stallbreaker, definitely.
252+ Atk Guts Ursaring Facade (140 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 174-205 (44.2 - 52.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
However, it can't break Leftovers Avalugg unless the item has been removed or it goes for the Swords Dance. I don't think full stall is really a thing in Inverse either, anyway, as in practice you just don't have enough stallmons. In my experience stall teams in Inverse tend to have a powerful defensive core (Chansey/Avalugg/Hippowdon is my preferred one) and then the other half of the team is more oriented toward attacking things.
I can see B, though, definitely.
sin(pi)
lucky n bad
252 Atk Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Absol: 279-327 (102.9 - 120.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
It's certainly not switching in risk-free, though, and one mispredict means it's dead. The only other viable Bouncer is Espeon and I'm not even going to bother calc'ing that. (Btw, it probably wants to run Ice Beam for breaking Chanslugg + P2: Koff, Spunch, Ice Beam, SD|Play Rough|Superpower|ZHB sounds like the best set.) Mega Absol is also incredibly uncommon - it has a raw count of a whopping 9 on the most recent usage stats, compared to Avalugg's 422. (Though obviously this has no impact on its viability - you're right that's it's pretty good.)
Spore is certainly less good against more offensively inclined teams, but Mach Punch is very very useful here. A Focus Sash set puts in a lot of work in my experience. From my experience, full stall itself isn't great at all (every good team needs some sort of stallbreaker to deal with Chanslugg+P2, and most stall teams are 6-0'd by Meloetta + Toxic Spikes support). Balance is the most common playstyle, which is where Breloom shines - it's a lot easier to bring it in and fire off an attack or a Spore.
I think if anything, Loom should stay out of S because Miltank is a guaranteed counter which is plenty viable, and outside of Spore, Mamo switches in fairly well - it's not at the "I need a dedicated counter to this mon or I lose" level.
0 SpA Porygon2 Tri Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hoopa Unbound: 72-85 (23.9 - 28.2%) -- 93.9% chance to 4HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Porygon-Z Tri Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hoopa Unbound: 214-254 (71 - 84.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (note one is P2 and one is P-Z)
Saying it hates the Normal spam is misleading, since a) it only really hates stronger physical attacks, b) it's not supposed to switch in on strong attacks anyway, it's meant to come in on a free switch, and c) Normal spam is actually a lot less prevalent than you would think from the VR and from theorymon*. A set of Dark Pulse/Psy[chic/shock]/Knock Off/Filler 2HKOs the entire metagame, with or without rocks (again, Gengar aside, but who wants to switch in Gengar like that? It also needs to run Psychic itself to KO, and hope Hoopa doesn't run any kind of coverage). Its speed tier is actually fairly good for this meta - other than the lightning-fast mons such as Bees, a large number of mons sit around the base 70 Speed tier, or don't run as much speed. Notably, Hoopa can OHKO Meloetta with Psyshock/ZHB while outspeeding most variants - something very few mons can claim. It also counterleads Bees by outspeeding non-mega and OHKO'ing through Protect with uninvested Hyperspace Fury which is cute. As for Breloom vaporising it:
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hoopa Unbound: 192-227 (63.7 - 75.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
So you can't just bring Breloom in to revenge it unless it's taken a fair bit of chip damage (which means it's probably gotten at least 2 attacks off, so you've lost at least one team member). All in all, it's completely nuts.
I can see some of your points, but it's not really getting a good chance to set up on more offensive teams. It does
I actually find that Toxic is more common on my teams - I used to slap it on half my physical attackers to lure Avalugg (since they can't break it otherwise). I don't know what you mean by "dropping it is such a small cost" - it's integral in breaking bulky cores which wall most unboosted things otherwise. It also hates Trick a lot more than Melo does.
Or if Avalugg has taken a small amount of chip damage from spikes support (I ran Ursaring on spike stack offense):
252+ Atk Guts Ursaring Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 174-205 (44.1 - 52%) -- 75.8% chance to 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes and Leftovers recovery
Or switching in to another attack:
252 Atk Adaptability Mega Beedrill U-turn vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 78-94 (19.8 - 23.9%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
which leaves it down to a roll.
Full stall isn't really a thing though, no.
* I personally think normalspam isn't common because while it's unresisted, you need SE hits to break stuff like avalugg on the physical side, so normal just doesn't cut it. There's also a notable lack of legal, good, Normal-type hard-hitters - you're limited to Raptor/PZ/Lop for fast mons, and Ursaring for a slow monster.
That was kind of my point, yes, that you don't actually need a dedicated counter -it's great, but it's not the sort of thing you're liable to build a dedicated counter to. There's other viable Pokemon too, like Sap Sipper Bouffalant, that Breloom hates.
I misread you as talking about Hoopa-Confined. Hoopa-Unbound is an entirely different beast I have no particular opinions on.
I say it's a small cost because there's so few strongly viable walls, the Unaware walls are both pretty terrible with Unaware being one of the main walls that Toxicing is a fantastic thing to do (In Inverse it's unnecessary, because Clefable is just plain awful while Quagsire is deeply flawed), and in general Inverse tends to slant toward offense -even having my walls drop Toxic is often redundant because so many things run Life Orb or otherwise burn themselves out. I actually find hazards stacking a lot more useful if you can get Avalugg to stop Rapid Spinning it out of the way -and sometimes even then.
Zangoose is fast enough for most of the tier, and with Toxic Boost Facade hits plenty hard. Critically, it can Swords Dance too, making it dangerous for Avalugg to switch into it -it can't 2HKO with unboosted Facade, but leaving Avalugg with as little as 5%+Leftovers recovery is possible after a single Swords Dance. This pressures Avalugg to keep its health up -if it's ever low enough that switching in and healing with Leftovers will leave it at 80% or less, Zangoose is clear to come in on something else and sweep. Zangoose also has Knock Off to clear out Leftovers, so it can open by Knock Offing Avalugg and only later trying to get the Swords Dance sweep. Zangoose is a fantastic 'mon in Inverse, one I've used extensively, and it absolutely can push Avalugg into a situation where it must switch or die while on such low health that it's a nightmare to get it back in without it promptly dying.
Sap Sipper Bouffalant is pretty good at dishing out damage if it grabs a +1 -such as by switching into Breloom dropping a Spore or lobbing Bullet Seed.
+1 252+ Atk Choice Band Bouffalant Head Charge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 198-234 (50.3 - 59.5%) -- 80.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
It's not my favorite Pokemon (It's a bit slow, and if you aren't providing some kind of fantastic Wish support it burns out too fast), but it's definitely viable in Inverse. It also gets Swords Dance, which can be a nasty surprise to Avalugg.
Diggersby is another decent Pokemon, though not perfect.
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 257-304 (65.3 - 77.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
It even resists Avalanche if Avalugg thinks to KO it instead of Roaring it out, and Normal/Ground is even more perfect coverage than in regular play, freeing Diggersby to run pretty much whatever it wants in its third slot -it can run U-Turn to bait out Avalugg and promptly switch in something Avalugg can't take at all, it can throw down a layer of Spikes and then U-Turn out to, for instance, a Rocky Helmet Rough Skin Druddigon (Which always surprises me with its viability in Inverse) to seriously punish Rapid Spin, it can run Toxic since why not? etc. It's a neat little Pokemon all around.
Not many other Normal spam 'mons are really all that great though, I'll admit. Linoone is theoretically godly with Belly Drum, but it can't 2HKO Avalugg at +6, which is just terrible, while against more offensive teams it... what, wins the predict against Mega Beedrill? (As in, they both lead and Linoone Belly Drums while Beedrill Mega Evolves)
Lcass4919
The Xatu Warrior
diggersby is banned.
sin(pi)
lucky n bad
This is basically me posting Kl4ng's noms but with my own thoughts on them:
Avalugg to A+ (controversial I know)
Rhyperior to B
(Avalugg) Basically, everyone is really prepared for Chanslugg, and while it's a fantastically bulky physical wall, it's lacking on the special side. Additionally it's still fairly passive and suffers from mild 4MSS (you want recover, roar, toxic, rapid spin, avalanche, and often return/EQ, and mirror coat, while, unused, is a cool lure since it has sturdy). Without toxic bulky things just come in for free, without an attack you can't really pressure anything, and without roar you're setup bait for stuff like melo which is unacceptable.
(Rhyperior) This thing is bulky as hell and gets Lightningrod which is actually useful here (and incredibly annoying), it pairs very well with Tangrowth as it covers Tangrowth's weaknesses to Water, Ground, Grass, and Electric, while 'growth covers Poison, Flying and Fire for it. It also hits really hard with its STABs.
Thoughts? I think Avalugg especially needs some discussion.
Avalugg to A+ (controversial I know)
Rhyperior to B
(Avalugg) Basically, everyone is really prepared for Chanslugg, and while it's a fantastically bulky physical wall, it's lacking on the special side. Additionally it's still fairly passive and suffers from mild 4MSS (you want recover, roar, toxic, rapid spin, avalanche, and often return/EQ, and mirror coat, while, unused, is a cool lure since it has sturdy). Without toxic bulky things just come in for free, without an attack you can't really pressure anything, and without roar you're setup bait for stuff like melo which is unacceptable.
(Rhyperior) This thing is bulky as hell and gets Lightningrod which is actually useful here (and incredibly annoying), it pairs very well with Tangrowth as it covers Tangrowth's weaknesses to Water, Ground, Grass, and Electric, while 'growth covers Poison, Flying and Fire for it. It also hits really hard with its STABs.
Thoughts? I think Avalugg especially needs some discussion.
sin(pi)
lucky n bad
Not sure why munch should rise, if anything I'd want it to drop (could you explain a bit more?). I've said my piece on Avalugg, so I'll let others chime in if they want*. Don't have particular opinions on the other two.
Also, can we move regular Lopunny, Regigigas, and Slaking to "Do Not Use"? Regular Lop is now "Inverse OU" by usage (and I'm fairly sure this is because of the Cosmic Power + BP set, which is awful), and I shouldn't have to explain the other two.
*On the subject of Avalugg, has anyone tried a Tank Avalugg set? ie with investment into attack running Recover, Avalanche, EQ, andRock Polish a filler move.
Also, can we move regular Lopunny, Regigigas, and Slaking to "Do Not Use"? Regular Lop is now "Inverse OU" by usage (and I'm fairly sure this is because of the Cosmic Power + BP set, which is awful), and I shouldn't have to explain the other two.
*On the subject of Avalugg, has anyone tried a Tank Avalugg set? ie with investment into attack running Recover, Avalanche, EQ, and
The reason I'm extremely pro-munchlax is the fact that not only is it extremely bulky, it can set up on pokemon such as porygon2 or avalugg. Also I believe I moved a few of those down.