Do you guys think I should add a section dedicated to Trick Room Hazard/Stealth Rock setters, since some pokemon don't really fit into the offensive/special setter category but can get mention as Trick Room Hazard-setters.
Yeah, I think a general "Support" section would be a good idea.Do you guys think I should add a section dedicated to Trick Room Hazard/Stealth Rock setters, since some pokemon don't really fit into the offensive/special setter category but can get mention as Trick Room Hazard-setters.
Will do, I will try to think up some pokemon other than hazards support.Yeah, I think a general "Support" section would be a good idea.
Mention dual screens.Cresselia is an excellent defensive setter because of her insane defenses (go figure), and access to reliable recovery and support options. Ideally, Cresselia comes in towards the end of a game, almost guarantee's Trick Room setup, and then Lunar Dance to bring in a fully healed sweeper in hopes of cleaning out the rest of your opponent's team. Cresselia also has access to status, but lacks an offensive presence because of her low attack stats, meaning that she will mainly be sacrificed to completely heal one of your sweepers.
Mention great coverage optionsSlowking may seem a worse choice than Slowbro, as he lacks the defense to stand up to the prominently physical OU environment. However, Slowking boasts access to Nasty Plot, which can turn him into a deadly sweeper. The inclusion of Nasty Plot means that you will have to forego either coverage move or Slack Off, but unlike Slowbro Slowking is a sweeper so Regenerator+Leftovers should be enough for recovery.
Talk about how while normally Rock Tomb is a decent option, it's not good for TR.Taking a slight hit in usability thanks to Aerilate and Gale Wings, Breloom is still a solid choice for Trick Room teams. Spore can be used to force a switch, giving you a turn to set up your Swords Dance/Substitute. Technician is generally superior to Poison Heal, as it grants more power whereas Poison Heal allows nice recovery as well as a status absorber. Base-70 speed can be left alone if you want it to be somewhat fast outside of Trick Room, as it is slow enough to outspeed notable pokemon like most Bisharps, Zard-X, Excadrill, and Mega-Tyranitar under Trick Room.
This is a pretty good description of mega heracross, but mention Swords Dance for total wallbreaking POWAAAHHHCommonly disregarded as an inferior Mega, Heracross has the advantage of a decent number of multi-hit moves and powerful STAB along with ridiculous attack, good defenses, and a lowered speed while Mega-Evolving, making it a good option for Trick Room. Multi-hit moves allow him to get past Baton Pass substitutes that tend to eat up Trick Room turns, and running Rock Blast, Bullet Seed, Close Combat, and Earthquake grants unresisted coverage byANY pokemon. A 4x Weakness to flying types does not help our overpowered Cricket by any means, and will require some support from the team to get past Talonflame and M-Pinsir.
For escavalier, emphasize what CB should be the only item, and how friggin strong it is.If you are willing to take a risk with a very slow pokemon, Escavalier may be the pokemon for you. While generally outclassed by Mega-Scizor, Escavalier has higher defenses than normal scizor, along with with a higher attack. Escavalier can also run Assault Vest to give it even better Special Defense, and while doing so avoids the OHKO from Specs Magnezone's HP Fire, OHKO-ing with Drill Run. Escavalier can also fare pretty well against Kyurem-B, taking little damage from anything Kyurem can throw and eliminating at least 75% of his health with Iron Head.
It really shouldn't be in the offensive section :/ RemoveOutside of setting Hazards for your team, Ferrothorn can act as a mediocre Trick Room sweeper, mostly because of STAB Gyro Ball, which hits insanely hard with a speed rivaling Shuckle. Base-94 Attack is not too bad, and Ferrothorn has good enough uninvested defense to not have to worry about dieing to unboosted hits. Power Whip can hit water-type pokemon like Azumarill, Rotom-W, and Mega-Gyarados, for a ton of damage, but Ferrothorn really should not be a complete consideration for a sweeper unless you absolutely need hazards and no other pokemon works well with your team.
Mention BellyJet as an actual valid win condition that works fine otherwise.A rising star in OU is the new Fairy Rabbit. Azumarill’s Base-50 Attack may not seem like much, but with max investment and after Huge Power boost Azumarill reaches 436 Attack. With useful priority in Aqua Jet, wonderful attacks in Play Rough and Waterfall, Ice Punch, Knock Off, along with Superpower to kill our opponents, Azumarill can be a pokemon that can deal a ton of damage. 100/80/80 defenses are good uninvested, and you can live a few hits outside of Trick Room to deal with threats like Talonflame, Keldeo, Bisharp, and M-Charizard X.
Talk about offensive jellicent, it can actually hit back :PJellicent is a decent choice in OU for it’s nice typing (and Keldeo Counter), good 100/70/105 bulk, and support movepool. While not as offensively inclined, Jellicent has Recover, along with good status moves like Will-O-Wisp and Toxic. Jellicent has access to a wide array of offensive moves, but generally should run Shadow Ball as this grants good neutral STAB coverage (Jellicent shouldn't be trying to sweep) leaving room for Recover, Status, and Trick Room. The Moustached Jellyfish can also function as a special wall, or a mixed wall if you choose to invest in his somewhat disappointing physical bulk.
Mention Explosion too, does some damage and brings in a teammate for free.Gourgeist is one of the two pokemon with the Grass/Ghost typing, the other being Trevenant. Gourgeist makes an excellent physical wall, and with moves like Will-O-Wisp, Leech Seed, Pain Split, Toxic and Destiny Bond, your opponent may find Gourgeist hard and frustrating to take down. Alongside her unique typing, Gourgeist has a nice Base-100 Attack stat making use of her physical moves like Shadow Sneak. Frisk can help you identify your opponent's set which helps ease prediction.
Pls don't mention AV, that thing has dissapointing power and isn't suited for TR. Talk about sheer force LO sets or status orb sets, that facade is REALLY nice.Conkeldurr is an excellent pick for a Trick Room Physical sweeper, and is considered by some to be a staple for Trick Room teams. Assault Vest patches up his disappointing Special Defense, and Guts makes him a threatening Status Absorber. Conkeldurr has enough bulk to take hits outside of Trick Room, so he will serve your team well. Unfortunately BirdSpam really hurts the Concrete Clown, so don't expect him to be taking on M-Pinsir or Talonflame.
Mention weakness policy? that could be cool.Rhyperior is like a Conkeldurr that just got different typing. Good Health, Attack, and Defense make Rhyperior a 'solid' pick, as he can be used to set up rocks, or run Assault Vest to patch up that low Special Defense. STAB EdgeQuake never hurt anyone, and he also has access to a lot of coverage options alongside those. His two 4x weaknesses to Water and Grass may hold him back a bit, but in light of that he definitely makes a good Talonflame/Mega Pinsir Counter, resisting most moves the former carries, while failing to get OHKO-ed by the latter's +2 Earthquake. Talk about bulk.
Emphasize versatility in and out of TR, emphasize sucker punch.Bisharp is another one of those pokemon who can see use both inside and outside of Trick Room, and as a result I do not recommend using the 'kill all speed' ideology with him. With the rise of Defoggers, it should not be difficult to get the defiant boost on Bisharp and immediately put your opponent in a world of hurt. 70 speed uninvested puts him above the walls that Trick Room hates and below threats like Landorus, Lati@s, Mega-Tyranitar, Terrakion, and Dragonite. He does have a 4x fighting-type weakness, so watch out for Conkeldurr who can abuse the Trick Room you set and OHKO the Red Ranger.
Why is tyranitar in the mixed sweepers section .-.Tyranitar is an excellent choice for Trick Room teams, especially if you enjoy the added bonus of weather. Sandstorm is excellent passive damage, and can help in finishing off opponents if you (like me) tend to leave them with 4% HP at the end of most turns. Tyranitar adds Stealth Rocks, a Dark/Ghost resist, a Talonflame check, and a bulky/powerful sweeper. Under Sandstorm his respectable special defense gets boosted even further, to the point where even Hydro Pumps cannot kill this Godzilla-esque creature. While his Attack may be gargantuan, do not be distracted from his Base-95 special attack and fairly deep special movepool. Tyranitar must watch out for Will-O-Wisps on the switch, and a 4x weakness to the ever-common fighting-types means trouble. But you will likely have a fighting resist in your setters so fear not.
Number 6 in Teambuilding: "6. [...] This is generally a late-game sweeper/cleaner like ScarfChomp, who comes in once your opponent's team is sufficiently weakened and your setters are incapable of coming in again."Add a cleaner section... EDIT: you mentioned it in the end, but talk about it a little in the beginning too :]
I think setting a limit to how slow something must be is kind of counter-productive, since a 68 speed EV Landorus-T can come in on Greninja and reliably outspeed under Trick Room. However I will mention the speed thing as [done] not all pokemon work this way, thank you for reminding me.Speed limit
I'm sorry, but Xatu isn't good outside of Magic Bounce which it doesn't even do that well, and all Bronzong had going for it was it's steel-typing resists, which it lost this gen.As for TR setters, mention xatu and bronzong. Xatu can't be taunted, can set screens, other stuff, and Bronzong can set hazards, set TR, and explode to bring in a pokemon for free.
Well I am just full of forgetting pokemon here haha, I will add Mamoswine [done].Mention Mamoswine somewhere, 80 base speed is workable, and it can set rocks, gives powerful priority, and is strong&bulky in general.
It's especially useful because Mega Pinsir rapes slower teams, and mamoswine is a good offensive check to it.
Celebi wasn't probably my best choice [done], but I stand by Jirachi. One of the things that I'm trying to emphasize is that you cannot always rely on having Trick Room up, and so having mid-speed pokemon is a plus since Jirachi's offensive setter set (running Brave, 0 IVs, and Fire Punch) outspeeds and virtually guaranteed OHKO's (93.8%) non-mega Scizor outside of Trick Room post-Stealth Rocks Damage (and a 20% chance to burn).Jirachi and Celebi
Their coverage/moveset options will be taken care of when I find sets to post, which will make explaining coverage much easier as it is just a matter of slashing moves side-by-side. I was just trying to get across a general gist of what they were supposed to be doing.Cresselia, Slowking, Breloom, and some other pokemon
Marowak isn't very useful outside of trick room, Scrafty isn't very good compared to options like Bisharp, Conkeldurr, Machamp, and others. The only thing Escavalier has over Scizor is its ability to run Assault Vest reliably, other than that it is really outclassed in terms of priority and momentum-gaining. Aggron could get mention as a good sweeper but that is really debatable as it has a 4x Ground and Fighting weakness, pretty common as coverage Earthquake. I love Mega-Abomasnow too, it just has so many weaknesses and takes a ton from all the priority in OU. Honchkrow has quite lackluster defenses, and isn't taking many hits either.Aggron, Marowak, Escavalier, Scrafty, Mega-Abomasnow, Honchkrow
Alakazam, unlike other suicide Trick Room pokemon, can be used outside of setting Trick Room and has a very good offensive presence. It can also completely bypass all hazards/weather, and something many Trick Room teams lack is a reliable late-game trick room setup, which alakazam brings.Alakazam
Assault vest takes the one thing conkeldurr lacked, and gave him an automatic +1 Boost in it. AV conkeldurr lasts longer than Guts ones, and with all the status flying around it isn't very hard to get the Guts boost. I will add mention Sheer Force+LO and status orb sets [done] though, they definitely have their uses though.Conkeldurr and AV
Jellicent should not be running offensive, it may have a movepool but without rain boosting its 85 special attack it isn't hitting very hard. Plus, it is far more suited for a defensive setter role, as it has good special defense along with High-HP making up for its kinda disappointing defense.Jellicent running offensive
Tyranitar has respectable special attack and even univested is OHKO-ing Mega Scizor Post-SR. Mega-Tyranitar is a different monster with those boosts pretty much everything other than epscial attack. 71 Speed may seem fast, but with -Nature and 0 IVs it speed-ties to neutral base-48s, which is slow. I will mention that it generally favors Physically offensive sets [done].Tyranitar&Mega Tyranitar
Slipped my mind... I was focusing on mostly OU pokemon but yes I see where Mesprit becomes useful.Mesprit
Rhyperior doesn't want to take those 4x super effective hits at all, and unlike pokemon who normally use it (D-nite, Aegislash), Rhyperior doesn't have the defensive cushion to fall back on.Rhyperior and Weakness Policy
Scizor is already mentioned under TR sweepers, Moxiemence could get noted, Diggersby is outclassed by the other Huge Power users (azumarill&Mawile) and doesn't add much in way of defensive-synergy, while the others just slipped my mind. I don't see how Scolipede becomes late-game cleaner, so if you could elaborate that one for me that would be helpful.Mention Diggersby, (Moxiemence?), (mega) Scizor, Terrakion, Volcorona [all3 done], and Scolipede as sweepers/cleaners
I was under the impression that the point of Aegislash was to move after the opponent (why people are running 0IVs and -Nature anyways), guaranteeing you take the hit in shield form before retaliating in Blade-Form. Also, King's Shield eats up a trick room turn, which is not helpful with such a short timer. Aegislash would do better on a different team since they use his speed defensively while Trick Room plays offensively.I'm quite surprised you managed to totally not mention AEGISLASH. Please do dump him in the mixed sweepers section or something.
Ok, so I think my use of 'sweeper' was different than the one you use, for that part I chose pokemon who can finish off any business that Trick Room failed to do, involving hitting ridiculously hard from the get-go. That is why you have these wall-breakers filling up the end-game sweeper portion, since they can finish off opposing teams without using Trick Room which you will probably be forced to do end-game. Mega Chomp was formality [done], since pretty much every pokemon with a mega got mentioned, I will remove him shortly. Latios can force switches on problem pokemon, and hits pretty hard right off the bat, along with the possibility of defog support. I mentioned in an earlier post i'm weeding out the late-game cleaners that are kind of "what?" so please bear with that.How is Mega Char-y a sweeper? It's not, remove. You don't need another fast wallbreaker on a team of slow wallbreakers.
Mega Chomp is far too slow to sweep, and not slow enough for TR
no place in this article imo.
Same goes for Kyu-b
The rest of the comments
Goodra doesn't add much offensively that the other dragons do not, Dragonite has a superior ability and priority, Haxorus has Mold Breaker, Moxiemence has Moxie, and so on. Empoleon had mention but got removed since it was sorely outclassed by almost every other special attacker, and there are better hazard setters/removers for Trick Room. Togekiss... actually has good stats and could fit fairly well... whoops [done].Goodra could definitely use a mention too, 80 base speed is ok.
Same goes for togekiss, 80 base is ok. Could see some action in the special sweepers section or the support section OR THE PHYSICAL SECTION HUSTLEKISS FTWWW
Empoleon could get a tiny mention in the support or special sweepers section.
Quite honestly, Dragonite can fit into almost any predefined category I have made, you could write books on Dragonite's many MANY uses. It will get mention under Mixed TR sweepers [Done]Dragonite as mixed sweeper
I was debating Swampert [done] but couldn't come to much of a conclusion, and Snorlax requires most physical attackers to be removed in order to do its job of sweeping, and CurseLax is not fit for Trick Room.Snorlax and Swampert
Destiny Bond essentially does the same thing, except you can direct all your attention towards buffing defenses so you don't get to the point of needing to explode very easily. In general, defensive setters are not supposed to be killed off so quickly, and I would only consider explosion if you were going offensive Gourgeist.Gourgeist and Explosion
Malamar is very very VERY bad and brings little that other offensive setters could. His typing is 'interesting', but doesn't have many resists as Dark/Psychic just barely cover each other. And when Physically offensive Magikarp is doing ~34-40% with U-turn, you know you have a problem (I know this doesn't exist, just for emphasis).Malamar
The first thing I mention in the teambuilding process is: "1. Have a dark/ghost resist (or two). Odds are at least 2 members of your team are going to be weak to one of these types, so it is an absolute must to have a pokemon capable of switching into dark/ghost-type attacks. Otherwise you may just find yourself swept repeatedly by Aegislash or Bisharp."Mention dark/ghost weakness
While Bronzong certainly isn't doing as well this gen at last, it just covers a lot of roles (a little offensive presence, hazards, TR setter, can get another pokemon in safely) and I still insist that it deserves a mention. It just does a lot and wraps up a lot of stuff into one pokemon, which is nice.I'm sorry, but Xatu isn't good outside of Magic Bounce which it doesn't even do that well, and all Bronzong had going for it was it's steel-typing resists, which it lost this gen.
I'd rather think that outside of TR, TR teams work as a bulky offense. Imo you should just give up on the whole outspeeding prospect and rely on priority or TR to stay ahead.One of the things that I'm trying to emphasize is that you cannot always rely on having Trick Room up, and so having mid-speed pokemon is a plus since Jirachi's offensive setter set (running Brave, 0 IVs, and Fire Punch) outspeeds and virtually guaranteed OHKO's (93.8%) non-mega Scizor outside of Trick Room post-Stealth Rocks Damage (and a 20% chance to burn).
Marowak has a decent amount of bulk, and can definitely work as a member of bulky offense that TR should be like outside of TR. But I can live with not mentioning it. Same with aggron, may have bulk but it has some nasty weaknesses.Marowak isn't very useful outside of trick room, Scrafty isn't very good compared to options like Bisharp, Conkeldurr, Machamp, and others. The only thing Escavalier has over Scizor is its ability to run Assault Vest reliably, other than that it is really outclassed in terms of priority and momentum-gaining. Aggron could get mention as a good sweeper but that is really debatable as it has a 4x Ground and Fighting weakness, pretty common as coverage Earthquake. I love Mega-Abomasnow too, it just has so many weaknesses and takes a ton from all the priority in OU. Honchkrow has quite lackluster defenses, and isn't taking many hits either.
Nah, kazam's pretty weak. 120 base speed still loses to ninja, and really, it's not too strong at all. Without a Life Orb or any other boosting item, and a STAB with pretty terrible offensive coverage (forcing it to rely on fairly weak coverage moves), it's not really as threatening as one may think. It's not even bringing in a teammate for free necessarily, which is a sign of a sub-par suicide lead. I still insist that this guy be removed.Alakazam, unlike other suicide Trick Room pokemon, can be used outside of setting Trick Room and has a very good offensive presence. It can also completely bypass all hazards/weather, and something many Trick Room teams lack is a reliable late-game trick room setup, which alakazam brings.
Status certainly isn't "flying around" the tier, especially with the decrease in usage of Rotom-W. A smart player won't even really use status when a guts user is around. And AV sets are so weak, they can't hope to break through stall one bit. AV still only takes weak special attacks a bit better too, it still can't stomach powerful special attackers like char-y and specs keldeo, so I honestly find it more productive to just go with power. Status orb and Sheer Force oughta be the main sets.Assault vest takes the one thing conkeldurr lacked, and gave him an automatic +1 Boost in it. AV conkeldurr lasts longer than Guts ones, and with all the status flying around it isn't very hard to get the Guts boost. I will add mention Sheer Force+LO and status orb sets [done] though, they definitely have their uses though.
While i agree perhaps jellicent shouldn't be offensive (but muh water spout), it makes for a pretty garbage defensive pokemon. There's a good reason jellicent is in RU right now. It's mostly due to the prevalence of ghost/dark type moves, and Jellicent is total fodder to these types. The only thing it really does is counter keldeo, cofagrigus is much more beneficial to a TR team in almost any other aspect. And a defensive jellicent really isn't worth it in this meta. Imo there are much better setters, don't mention it at all.Jellicent should not be running offensive, it may have a movepool but without rain boosting its 85 special attack it isn't hitting very hard. Plus, it is far more suited for a defensive setter role, as it has good special defense along with High-HP making up for its kinda disappointing defense.
uh, js, OHKO'ing a mon with a x4 move isn't too impressive, even uninvested. But yeah, 71 base speed can pass.Tyranitar has respectable special attack and even univested is OHKO-ing Mega Scizor Post-SR. Mega-Tyranitar is a different monster with those boosts pretty much everything other than epscial attack. 71 Speed may seem fast, but with -Nature and 0 IVs it speed-ties to neutral base-48s, which is slow. I will mention that it generally favors Physically offensive sets [done].
Aegislash falls under "the bulky offense works under and out of TR" section, and has some nice priority as well, which is always needed. While I see your point about turn order and stuff, you can simply just use Life Orb or Spooky Plate sets to just knock out pokemon before they can hit you back :]I was under the impression that the point of Aegislash was to move after the opponent (why people are running 0IVs and -Nature anyways), guaranteeing you take the hit in shield form before retaliating in Blade-Form. Also, King's Shield eats up a trick room turn, which is not helpful with such a short timer. Aegislash would do better on a different team since they use his speed defensively while Trick Room plays offensively.
There's one very important thing you're missing that differentiates Explosion and Destiny Bond. Explosion is gauranteed to give a free switch-in, but Destiny Bond has no gaurantee. You can be certain that you WILL die to explosion and you WILL be able to bring in a wallbreaker, but what's to say the opponent can't just set up while you use destiny bond as waste your own precious Trick Room? Destiny bond "essentially" does the same thing, yes, but if you screw up then the consequences are much more severe.Destiny Bond essentially does the same thing, except you can direct all your attention towards buffing defenses so you don't get to the point of needing to explode very easily. In general, defensive setters are not supposed to be killed off so quickly, and I would only consider explosion if you were going offensive Gourgeist.
I guess that's more of a question of Trick Room Philosphy, which I can fully understand. I guess I feel 'safer' knowing that I don't need Trick Room to deal with some more prevalent problem pokemon, but that's just how I like to play it.I'd rather think that outside of TR, TR teams work as a bulky offense. Imo you should just give up on the whole outspeeding prospect and rely on priority or TR to stay ahead.
I completely agree that no intelligent user would try to burn conkeldurr. But a ton of people would love to toxic your setters/burn mega-mawile, which is where Conkeldurr can just jump in. Also, looking at mega-zard Y:Status certainly isn't "flying around" the tier, especially with the decrease in usage of Rotom-W. A smart player won't even really use status when a guts user is around. And AV sets are so weak, they can't hope to break through stall one bit. AV still only takes weak special attacks a bit better too, it still can't stomach powerful special attackers like char-y and specs keldeo
Alakazam isn't a lead, it is a late-game guaranteed-outside-of-flinch-hax trick room setter, which helps in closing out games if you choose to run Full-Truck Room. 120 Base speed outspeeds most of OU, and 135 Special attack is pretty high (gets to 369 with 252 EVs). Focus Blast/Dazzling Gleam aren't very weak, and Shadow Ball rounds off that coverage. Actually, it gets (almost) perfect coverage with just Dazzling gleam and Psychic, so you can get in some coverage like HP Ice or Energy Ball. It doesn't get something in guaranteed, but it does guarantee that you get trick room set up, while outspeeding some pretty notable threats in OU (gengar, Landorus's etc)Nah, kazam's pretty weak. 120 base speed still loses to ninja, and really, it's not too strong at all. Without a Life Orb or any other boosting item, and a STAB with pretty terrible offensive coverage (forcing it to rely on fairly weak coverage moves), it's not really as threatening as one may think. It's not even bringing in a teammate for free necessarily, which is a sign of a sub-par suicide lead.
Cofagrigus and Jellicent are meant to play completely different roles on Trick Room teams. While the former has better offensive presence, Jellicent has access to recover, which means it will be sticking around a bit longer, probably setting up Trick Room one or two more times than Cofagrigus. Otherwise, the only difference in the two sets that I'd recommend is Nasty Pot and Recover, the rest of the sets are the exact same.The only thing it really does is counter keldeo, cofagrigus is much more beneficial to a TR team in almost any other aspect. And a defensive jellicent really isn't worth it in this meta. Imo there are much better setters, don't mention it at all.
uh, js, OHKO'ing a mon with a x4 move isn't too impressive, even uninvested. But yeah, 71 base speed can pass.
That works until they bring in a pokemon with a water/grass/super-effective special move, forcing you to switch and lose the boosts.It has solid rock, solid HP, and great defense to fall back on, letting it take steel, ground, and fighting moves to activate WP
Actually, AV Escavalier can survive HP Fire from Modest Choice Specs Magnezone and OHKO, which CB Escavalier and AV Scizor cannot do.It doesn't matter if you're AV, both scizor and escavalier are not gonna stay in on fires, but escavalier can really frighten fires with a prospect of drill run.
I wasn't calling Malamar trash because of the fact that Magikarp does that much damage to it, that was just supporting my claim. My only comment on smeargle calc is that Blizzard is much more powerful than U-Turn and isn't one of the most common pivoting moves in OU. Back on topic Malamar has 0 resists, 1 Immunity (psychic, most setters resist anyways), 1 2x Weakness (Fairy) and 1 4x weakness (Bug). Without the boosts Malamar's attack and Defenses can be somewhat underwhelming, opening the opponent up to bringing in their U-turner the turn you set up Trick Room and then U-Turn out if you superpower, giving them the upper hand in that situation.252+ SpA Smeargle Blizzard vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 236-280 (65.9 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
That doesn't mean that Garchomp is trash.
Yeah, bug weakness sucks, but this guy does a lot of stuff. Sets TR, and can be somewhat threatening. In fact, he's neutral to both ghost and dark, so that's already bringing something that several other TR setters fail to do.
And you're not relying on Dark/Psychic coverage, your main move of choice is Superpower here. Fighting/Dark/Psychic is quite excellent neutral coverage.
(Druddigon) (M) @ Assault VestI do agree there are definitely some picks for Trick Room sweepers that I did not include, but that's because there are generally better choices than pokemon like Escavalier and Druddigon. Escavalier is really only useful under Trick Room, whereas Scizor can make itself useful Trick Room or not. Granted Escavalier hits like a truck, and has decent hp&defenses, and gets coverage options so I can see Escavalier being useable in the lower OU. It's just that Scizor outclasses it in so many ways, but I guess it can do its work so I will add it.
But I disagree with Druddigon. If you decide to use it as a rocks setter, you get 4mss, and have to forego either STAB or the coverage it really needs (Iron Head for fairys, Fire Punch For steels, ThunderPunch for Bulky water, etc) to use Sheer Force. Plus, in terms of Out of Trick Room usage, Druddigon struggles to get much done because (unlike escavalier) it doesn't have anything boosting its defenses.
I updated OP with trick room mechanics/info section, and filled in the analysis of some pokemon, added Escavalier (sorry druddigon). I'm beginning semi-TR section.
well what do ya know, here is a set for druddigon. I know the set is meant to get a bit bulkier, but could you explain what it's got going for it, other than being more defensive. Because (from experience) Trick Room sweepers tend to need that max offensive presence. Also the lack of STAB is somewhat a put off, because it looks like it is maximizing neutral coverage, while Dragon gets a ton of Neutral coverage as it is.(Druddigon) (M) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 136 HP / 216 Atk / 100 Def / 56 SDef
Impish Nature
IVs: 0 Spd
- Rock Slide
- Thunder Punch
- Earthquake
- Gunk Shot
Perfect for Trick Room sweeping. Those Dragon Typing Resistances make this guy deserve, at least, a mention.
Yeah Doubles trick room and singles trick room are pretty different. I did add Druddigon to the OP, i'm just trying to find time to get some battles with him in to see how he gets played, if he does at all. He is probably the only viable Pure Trick room Dragon Physical sweeper which is at least somewhat of a niche.It's a doubles set I run, if I had built it for singles it would definitely get Dragon Stab.
It has the Mono Dragon resists coming off of improved bulk. Respectable 330 attack with sheer force. I will admit in a singles trick room team the moveset would not be ideal.
So we agree then. 120 attack is pretty good, and its bulk is tolerable. Plus, its got a pretty deep movepool and gets neutral coverage with STAB, Gunk Shot, and Fire Punch. Only a few weaknesses, a handful of resists are nice. I can see it working. (sorry acestriker19 for doubting your choice initially)All Dragon types generally have good speed, Druddigon's lack of speed gives it a single purpose: Trick Room. Any other time Drud is over looked and outclassed. Just should be a consideration if going the Trick Room route. That is my opinion, for what it is worth.
Thanks for the replay, I don't really follow tournaments much so it helps to find out what's going on there. I've actually been making alts and just trying trick room combinations, and I've gotta say I'm really liking the Cofagrigus/Aromatisse TR core, with Lucario and Landorus as late-game sweepers. But yeah, back on topic, that team is really interesting, I'm not sure if he -Nature and min IVed Krookodile, but if he had invested a bit of speed that battle would've gone differently since it can outspeed and OHKO Bisharp with earthquake. Haha maybe if I can catch CTC online I can get his team to add to the guide.http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-8039
user CTC brought a pretty neat Trick Room to a tournament last weekend, he won a few games in the tour and even though he lost this match it's a pretty good showcase of the team and Trick Room use in XY OU. There are some cool ideas in it, like the use of Krookodile so the team can deal with Aegislash and Bisharp without much trouble, and the general team composition. Just thought you might want to check it out.
I don't think Umbreon fits into the 'offensive' category, because even with Foul Play it is taking a ton of damage by way of the boosted attacks it is trying to punish. I think it's job is better left as a wall, and I'm not saying that it doesn't have its use, but I wouldn't go as far as to say it is a 'Trick Room' Pokemon. It could possibly fall under the 'Trick Room Support', and it could probably make a decent Cleric/Wishpasser with that low of speed, but Aromatisse doubles as a setter, and if you really needed a big wall Chansey is always there. Foul Play would probably be the one seperating factor, but that's more of a novelty and you said it yourself "not relevent to most games". Quite honestly it lacks offensive presence, and I'd probably wait a bit to see how your team pans out to determine umbreon's merit, and how much use it gets. Best of luckCan I suggest Umbreon? My own OU TR team is kind of new, so it isn't close to amazing yet, but I added Umbreon to team since it's provided reliable support for me before and, turns out, it works nicely with TR. It already can function outside of TR, but it certainly does not mind the speed boost. Even though it's not relevant to most games, Umbreon can, amusingly enough, sweep physically-inclined, and some mixed and specially-inclined, hyper-offense teams while under TR with just Foul Play.
(sorry for the delayed reply, I saw your post and then it didnt occur to me that I had forgotten to reply)Sorry if it seemed like I was suggesting Umbreon for offensive. I meant more that it being able to sweep with a support set and EV spread was more of a nifty, and unexpected, perk that can make a difference in some battles rather than a major reason to use it.
Rather, I was suggesting it for support. Outside of the typical reasons to use Umbreon (bulky, punish status users, STAB Foul Play, cleric support, etc.), it's appeal to a TR team, IMO, is its mono-Dark typing lets it eat Dark and Ghost-type attacks for the numerous Psychic and Ghost TR setters (who synergize back defensively by being able to take Fighting and, in the latter case, Bug attacks) and that it doesn't really mind if TR is up or down on any given turn. It does stack a Bug weakness with Psychic setters though, which is something to keep in mind.
I'm running at atm with Slowbro and Chandy as setters, so it plays rather well with them.