Gen VI OU Guide to Trick Room [GP 0/2]

[Mango Smoothie]

Do you guys think I should add a section dedicated to Trick Room Hazard/Stealth Rock setters, since some pokemon don't really fit into the offensive/special setter category but can get mention as Trick Room Hazard-setters.

 

[LightningLuxray]

Do you guys think I should add a section dedicated to Trick Room Hazard/Stealth Rock setters, since some pokemon don't really fit into the offensive/special setter category but can get mention as Trick Room Hazard-setters.

Yeah, I think a general "Support" section would be a good idea.

 

[Mango Smoothie]

Yeah, I think a general "Support" section would be a good idea.

Will do, I will try to think up some pokemon other than hazards support.

Also, the thread seems to me as getting a bit cluttered-looking, I'm probably going to go through and clean out some of those 'what are you thinking?' pokemon that people point out after the support section is made, hopefully that will give me an outlet for some of the pokemon who don't really have much outside of stuff like hazards (ferrothorn), along with shortening some of the analyses of the pokemon.

EDIT: Added support and shortened some analyses (tell me what you think?). Looking into potential sets for notable pokemon.

 

[Srn]

Wow i did not see this article, i better give muh fellow Trick Roomers a hand! (too bad this is in GP, hope it ain't too late)

Allright, here's what i caught on the first skim:

In the first few paragraphs, you should talk about the "cutoff" for what to use in a TR team and what not to use. Basically, when is a pokemon too fast for TR?
I personally consider the cutoff as base 75, with an exception in victini and xatu. You should mention this.

Also emphasize a little more on how your TR sweepers need some BULK!! You should not be using rampardos if this is a serious TR team.

As for TR setters, mention xatu and bronzong. Xatu can't be taunted, can set screens, other stuff, and Bronzong can set hazards, set TR, and explode to bring in a pokemon for free.

Jirachi really shouldn't be in the physical sweepers area of TR. Remove it :/

Give a few tips on how to use victini with V-create+TR combo. it's a little tricky to time.

Lastly, and most importantly, talk about how it is nice to have some cleaners! TR is just a big wallbreaking mess, and sometimes it's not enough. Having a nice cleaner to sweep up the mess TR leaves behind is REALLY nice. like, REALLLLYYY NICE. There are plenty of cleaners to choose from, just mention that most don't have a use inside of TR.

EDIT: you mentioned it in the end, but talk about it a little in the beginning too :]

in offensive TR setters section, mention mesprit.

in the rocks setters section, remove rachi and celebi. They can set TR and all, but they're just too fast. Same goes for in the setters imo.

Clefable could definitely use a mention in the support section. Too bad it doesn't learn TR.

Cresselia is an excellent defensive setter because of her insane defenses (go figure), and access to reliable recovery and support options. Ideally, Cresselia comes in towards the end of a game, almost guarantee's Trick Room setup, and then Lunar Dance to bring in a fully healed sweeper in hopes of cleaning out the rest of your opponent's team. Cresselia also has access to status, but lacks an offensive presence because of her low attack stats, meaning that she will mainly be sacrificed to completely heal one of your sweepers.

Mention dual screens.

Alakazam :/
There are better suicide setters lol, this guy shouldn't really be here.

Slowking may seem a worse choice than Slowbro, as he lacks the defense to stand up to the prominently physical OU environment. However, Slowking boasts access to Nasty Plot, which can turn him into a deadly sweeper. The inclusion of Nasty Plot means that you will have to forego either coverage move or Slack Off, but unlike Slowbro Slowking is a sweeper so Regenerator+Leftovers should be enough for recovery.

Mention great coverage options

Taking a slight hit in usability thanks to Aerilate and Gale Wings, Breloom is still a solid choice for Trick Room teams. Spore can be used to force a switch, giving you a turn to set up your Swords Dance/Substitute. Technician is generally superior to Poison Heal, as it grants more power whereas Poison Heal allows nice recovery as well as a status absorber. Base-70 speed can be left alone if you want it to be somewhat fast outside of Trick Room, as it is slow enough to outspeed notable pokemon like most Bisharps, Zard-X, Excadrill, and Mega-Tyranitar under Trick Room.

Talk about how while normally Rock Tomb is a decent option, it's not good for TR.

Commonly disregarded as an inferior Mega, Heracross has the advantage of a decent number of multi-hit moves and powerful STAB along with ridiculous attack, good defenses, and a lowered speed while Mega-Evolving, making it a good option for Trick Room. Multi-hit moves allow him to get past Baton Pass substitutes that tend to eat up Trick Room turns, and running Rock Blast, Bullet Seed, Close Combat, and Earthquake grants unresisted coverage byANY pokemon. A 4x Weakness to flying types does not help our overpowered Cricket by any means, and will require some support from the team to get past Talonflame and M-Pinsir.

This is a pretty good description of mega heracross, but mention Swords Dance for total wallbreaking POWAAAHHH

If you are willing to take a risk with a very slow pokemon, Escavalier may be the pokemon for you. While generally outclassed by Mega-Scizor, Escavalier has higher defenses than normal scizor, along with with a higher attack. Escavalier can also run Assault Vest to give it even better Special Defense, and while doing so avoids the OHKO from Specs Magnezone's HP Fire, OHKO-ing with Drill Run. Escavalier can also fare pretty well against Kyurem-B, taking little damage from anything Kyurem can throw and eliminating at least 75% of his health with Iron Head.

For escavalier, emphasize what CB should be the only item, and how friggin strong it is.

Really iffy on donphan. REALLLYY IFFY

Mention Mamoswine somewhere, 80 base speed is workable, and it can set rocks, gives powerful priority, and is strong&bulky in general.
It's especially useful because Mega Pinsir rapes slower teams, and mamoswine is a good offensive check to it.

Mention Banded Aggron, stronk head smash
Mention Marowak, stronk overall.
Could mention scrafty too, up to you.

Outside of setting Hazards for your team, Ferrothorn can act as a mediocre Trick Room sweeper, mostly because of STAB Gyro Ball, which hits insanely hard with a speed rivaling Shuckle. Base-94 Attack is not too bad, and Ferrothorn has good enough uninvested defense to not have to worry about dieing to unboosted hits. Power Whip can hit water-type pokemon like Azumarill, Rotom-W, and Mega-Gyarados, for a ton of damage, but Ferrothorn really should not be a complete consideration for a sweeper unless you absolutely need hazards and no other pokemon works well with your team.

It really shouldn't be in the offensive section :/ Remove

A rising star in OU is the new Fairy Rabbit. Azumarill’s Base-50 Attack may not seem like much, but with max investment and after Huge Power boost Azumarill reaches 436 Attack. With useful priority in Aqua Jet, wonderful attacks in Play Rough and Waterfall, Ice Punch, Knock Off, along with Superpower to kill our opponents, Azumarill can be a pokemon that can deal a ton of damage. 100/80/80 defenses are good uninvested, and you can live a few hits outside of Trick Room to deal with threats like Talonflame, Keldeo, Bisharp, and M-Charizard X.

Mention BellyJet as an actual valid win condition that works fine otherwise.

Jellicent is a decent choice in OU for it’s nice typing (and Keldeo Counter), good 100/70/105 bulk, and support movepool. While not as offensively inclined, Jellicent has Recover, along with good status moves like Will-O-Wisp and Toxic. Jellicent has access to a wide array of offensive moves, but generally should run Shadow Ball as this grants good neutral STAB coverage (Jellicent shouldn't be trying to sweep) leaving room for Recover, Status, and Trick Room. The Moustached Jellyfish can also function as a special wall, or a mixed wall if you choose to invest in his somewhat disappointing physical bulk.

Talk about offensive jellicent, it can actually hit back :P

Gourgeist is one of the two pokemon with the Grass/Ghost typing, the other being Trevenant. Gourgeist makes an excellent physical wall, and with moves like Will-O-Wisp, Leech Seed, Pain Split, Toxic and Destiny Bond, your opponent may find Gourgeist hard and frustrating to take down. Alongside her unique typing, Gourgeist has a nice Base-100 Attack stat making use of her physical moves like Shadow Sneak. Frisk can help you identify your opponent's set which helps ease prediction.

Mention Explosion too, does some damage and brings in a teammate for free.

Conkeldurr is an excellent pick for a Trick Room Physical sweeper, and is considered by some to be a staple for Trick Room teams. Assault Vest patches up his disappointing Special Defense, and Guts makes him a threatening Status Absorber. Conkeldurr has enough bulk to take hits outside of Trick Room, so he will serve your team well. Unfortunately BirdSpam really hurts the Concrete Clown, so don't expect him to be taking on M-Pinsir or Talonflame.

Pls don't mention AV, that thing has dissapointing power and isn't suited for TR. Talk about sheer force LO sets or status orb sets, that facade is REALLY nice.

Rhyperior is like a Conkeldurr that just got different typing. Good Health, Attack, and Defense make Rhyperior a 'solid' pick, as he can be used to set up rocks, or run Assault Vest to patch up that low Special Defense. STAB EdgeQuake never hurt anyone, and he also has access to a lot of coverage options alongside those. His two 4x weaknesses to Water and Grass may hold him back a bit, but in light of that he definitely makes a good Talonflame/Mega Pinsir Counter, resisting most moves the former carries, while failing to get OHKO-ed by the latter's +2 Earthquake. Talk about bulk.

Mention weakness policy? that could be cool.

Bisharp is another one of those pokemon who can see use both inside and outside of Trick Room, and as a result I do not recommend using the 'kill all speed' ideology with him. With the rise of Defoggers, it should not be difficult to get the defiant boost on Bisharp and immediately put your opponent in a world of hurt. 70 speed uninvested puts him above the walls that Trick Room hates and below threats like Landorus, Lati@s, Mega-Tyranitar, Terrakion, and Dragonite. He does have a 4x fighting-type weakness, so watch out for Conkeldurr who can abuse the Trick Room you set and OHKO the Red Ranger.

Emphasize versatility in and out of TR, emphasize sucker punch.

remove celebi from mixed sweepers. Too fast

Instead, mention mixed wallbreaking Dragonite or something. Extremespeed is very nice for TR, and 80 base speed is JUST slow enough for it TR too imo. It's not bad under TR at all, I've tried it.

Don't forget Honckrow either. Useful priority, low enough speed for TR, and scary ability in moxie. Got that Heat Wave too.

and you totally forgot about my baby MEGA OBAMASNOWWWW
;_;

Tyranitar is an excellent choice for Trick Room teams, especially if you enjoy the added bonus of weather. Sandstorm is excellent passive damage, and can help in finishing off opponents if you (like me) tend to leave them with 4% HP at the end of most turns. Tyranitar adds Stealth Rocks, a Dark/Ghost resist, a Talonflame check, and a bulky/powerful sweeper. Under Sandstorm his respectable special defense gets boosted even further, to the point where even Hydro Pumps cannot kill this Godzilla-esque creature. While his Attack may be gargantuan, do not be distracted from his Base-95 special attack and fairly deep special movepool. Tyranitar must watch out for Will-O-Wisps on the switch, and a 4x weakness to the ever-common fighting-types means trouble. But you will likely have a fighting resist in your setters so fear not.

Why is tyranitar in the mixed sweepers section .-.
And why is its mega evolution mentioned when it INCREASES its speed?
Remove from this section, place it in the offensive section if you want...

How is Mega Char-y a sweeper? It's not, remove. You don't need another fast wallbreaker on a team of slow wallbreakers.
Mega Chomp is far too slow to sweep, and not slow enough for TR
no place in this article imo.
Same goes for Kyu-b
And latios, that's not a great sweeper.
I don't really see Keldeo as a sweeper either, really doubting it. Very vulnerable to faster threats (lati@s, thundy) and prone to common revenge killing methods (Brave BIRDDD, prio t-wave) Don't like it there.


Mention Mega Tyranitar in this section, remove haxorus, pretty much outclassed here
Mention Diggersby, (Moxiemence?), (mega) Scizor, Terrakion, Volcorona, and Scolipede as sweepers/cleaners too.

I'm quite surprised you managed to totally not mention AEGISLASH. Please do dump him in the mixed sweepers section or something.
Goodra could definitely use a mention too, 80 base speed is ok.
Same goes for togekiss, 80 base is ok. Could see some action in the special sweepers section or the support section OR THE PHYSICAL SECTION HUSTLEKISS FTWWW
Empoleon could get a tiny mention in the support or special sweepers section.
Snorlax and Swampert could get a mention in the physical sweepers section and the physical sweepers/rock setters section, respectively.
As much as I hate to say it, even malamar needs a mention here. It sets TR AND is a physical threat (if that's what you want to call it) definitely a pokemon worthy of note.
Slurpuff could see a mention as a Belly Drummer, if you choose. Has some merit as a special attacker too.

In the how to handle TR section, mention that TR setters are usually weak to dark/ghost, and to utilize these type of moves to hit the setters hard before they even get TR up.

 

[Mango Smoothie]

Wow that is a lot, hopefully I can respond adequately to it all (also sorry if I jump around in your response) Bold is for my remembering what to add

Add a cleaner section... EDIT: you mentioned it in the end, but talk about it a little in the beginning too :]

Number 6 in Teambuilding: "6. [...] This is generally a late-game sweeper/cleaner like ScarfChomp, who comes in once your opponent's team is sufficiently weakened and your setters are incapable of coming in again."

Speed limit

I think setting a limit to how slow something must be is kind of counter-productive, since a 68 speed EV Landorus-T can come in on Greninja and reliably outspeed under Trick Room. However I will mention the speed thing as [done] not all pokemon work this way, thank you for reminding me.

As for TR setters, mention xatu and bronzong. Xatu can't be taunted, can set screens, other stuff, and Bronzong can set hazards, set TR, and explode to bring in a pokemon for free.

I'm sorry, but Xatu isn't good outside of Magic Bounce which it doesn't even do that well, and all Bronzong had going for it was it's steel-typing resists, which it lost this gen.

Mention Mamoswine somewhere, 80 base speed is workable, and it can set rocks, gives powerful priority, and is strong&bulky in general.
It's especially useful because Mega Pinsir rapes slower teams, and mamoswine is a good offensive check to it.

Well I am just full of forgetting pokemon here haha, I will add Mamoswine [done].

Jirachi and Celebi

Celebi wasn't probably my best choice [done], but I stand by Jirachi. One of the things that I'm trying to emphasize is that you cannot always rely on having Trick Room up, and so having mid-speed pokemon is a plus since Jirachi's offensive setter set (running Brave, 0 IVs, and Fire Punch) outspeeds and virtually guaranteed OHKO's (93.8%) non-mega Scizor outside of Trick Room post-Stealth Rocks Damage (and a 20% chance to burn).

Cresselia, Slowking, Breloom, and some other pokemon

Their coverage/moveset options will be taken care of when I find sets to post, which will make explaining coverage much easier as it is just a matter of slashing moves side-by-side. I was just trying to get across a general gist of what they were supposed to be doing.

Aggron, Marowak, Escavalier, Scrafty, Mega-Abomasnow, Honchkrow

Marowak isn't very useful outside of trick room, Scrafty isn't very good compared to options like Bisharp, Conkeldurr, Machamp, and others. The only thing Escavalier has over Scizor is its ability to run Assault Vest reliably, other than that it is really outclassed in terms of priority and momentum-gaining. Aggron could get mention as a good sweeper but that is really debatable as it has a 4x Ground and Fighting weakness, pretty common as coverage Earthquake. I love Mega-Abomasnow too, it just has so many weaknesses and takes a ton from all the priority in OU. Honchkrow has quite lackluster defenses, and isn't taking many hits either.

Alakazam

Alakazam, unlike other suicide Trick Room pokemon, can be used outside of setting Trick Room and has a very good offensive presence. It can also completely bypass all hazards/weather, and something many Trick Room teams lack is a reliable late-game trick room setup, which alakazam brings.

Conkeldurr and AV

Assault vest takes the one thing conkeldurr lacked, and gave him an automatic +1 Boost in it. AV conkeldurr lasts longer than Guts ones, and with all the status flying around it isn't very hard to get the Guts boost. I will add mention Sheer Force+LO and status orb sets [done] though, they definitely have their uses though.

Jellicent running offensive

Jellicent should not be running offensive, it may have a movepool but without rain boosting its 85 special attack it isn't hitting very hard. Plus, it is far more suited for a defensive setter role, as it has good special defense along with High-HP making up for its kinda disappointing defense.

Tyranitar&Mega Tyranitar

Tyranitar has respectable special attack and even univested is OHKO-ing Mega Scizor Post-SR. Mega-Tyranitar is a different monster with those boosts pretty much everything other than epscial attack. 71 Speed may seem fast, but with -Nature and 0 IVs it speed-ties to neutral base-48s, which is slow. I will mention that it generally favors Physically offensive sets [done].

Mesprit

Slipped my mind... I was focusing on mostly OU pokemon but yes I see where Mesprit becomes useful.

Rhyperior and Weakness Policy

Rhyperior doesn't want to take those 4x super effective hits at all, and unlike pokemon who normally use it (D-nite, Aegislash), Rhyperior doesn't have the defensive cushion to fall back on.

Mention Diggersby, (Moxiemence?), (mega) Scizor, Terrakion, Volcorona [all3 done], and Scolipede as sweepers/cleaners

Scizor is already mentioned under TR sweepers, Moxiemence could get noted, Diggersby is outclassed by the other Huge Power users (azumarill&Mawile) and doesn't add much in way of defensive-synergy, while the others just slipped my mind. I don't see how Scolipede becomes late-game cleaner, so if you could elaborate that one for me that would be helpful.

I'm quite surprised you managed to totally not mention AEGISLASH. Please do dump him in the mixed sweepers section or something.

I was under the impression that the point of Aegislash was to move after the opponent (why people are running 0IVs and -Nature anyways), guaranteeing you take the hit in shield form before retaliating in Blade-Form. Also, King's Shield eats up a trick room turn, which is not helpful with such a short timer. Aegislash would do better on a different team since they use his speed defensively while Trick Room plays offensively.

How is Mega Char-y a sweeper? It's not, remove. You don't need another fast wallbreaker on a team of slow wallbreakers.
Mega Chomp is far too slow to sweep, and not slow enough for TR
no place in this article imo.
Same goes for Kyu-b
The rest of the comments

Ok, so I think my use of 'sweeper' was different than the one you use, for that part I chose pokemon who can finish off any business that Trick Room failed to do, involving hitting ridiculously hard from the get-go. That is why you have these wall-breakers filling up the end-game sweeper portion, since they can finish off opposing teams without using Trick Room which you will probably be forced to do end-game. Mega Chomp was formality [done], since pretty much every pokemon with a mega got mentioned, I will remove him shortly. Latios can force switches on problem pokemon, and hits pretty hard right off the bat, along with the possibility of defog support. I mentioned in an earlier post i'm weeding out the late-game cleaners that are kind of "what?" so please bear with that.

Goodra could definitely use a mention too, 80 base speed is ok.
Same goes for togekiss, 80 base is ok. Could see some action in the special sweepers section or the support section OR THE PHYSICAL SECTION HUSTLEKISS FTWWW
Empoleon could get a tiny mention in the support or special sweepers section.

Goodra doesn't add much offensively that the other dragons do not, Dragonite has a superior ability and priority, Haxorus has Mold Breaker, Moxiemence has Moxie, and so on. Empoleon had mention but got removed since it was sorely outclassed by almost every other special attacker, and there are better hazard setters/removers for Trick Room. Togekiss... actually has good stats and could fit fairly well... whoops [done].

Dragonite as mixed sweeper

Quite honestly, Dragonite can fit into almost any predefined category I have made, you could write books on Dragonite's many MANY uses. It will get mention under Mixed TR sweepers [Done]

Snorlax and Swampert

I was debating Swampert [done] but couldn't come to much of a conclusion, and Snorlax requires most physical attackers to be removed in order to do its job of sweeping, and CurseLax is not fit for Trick Room.

Gourgeist and Explosion

Destiny Bond essentially does the same thing, except you can direct all your attention towards buffing defenses so you don't get to the point of needing to explode very easily. In general, defensive setters are not supposed to be killed off so quickly, and I would only consider explosion if you were going offensive Gourgeist.

Malamar

Malamar is very very VERY bad and brings little that other offensive setters could. His typing is 'interesting', but doesn't have many resists as Dark/Psychic just barely cover each other. And when Physically offensive Magikarp is doing ~34-40% with U-turn, you know you have a problem (I know this doesn't exist, just for emphasis).

252+ Atk Magikarp U-turn vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Malamar: 128-152 (34 - 40.4%) -- 32.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery​

Mention dark/ghost weakness

The first thing I mention in the teambuilding process is: "1. Have a dark/ghost resist (or two). Odds are at least 2 members of your team are going to be weak to one of these types, so it is an absolute must to have a pokemon capable of switching into dark/ghost-type attacks. Otherwise you may just find yourself swept repeatedly by Aegislash or Bisharp."

Ok, I think that covers most of what you pointed out. I will get to making the changes as I find time.

EDIT: I have returned the thread to WIP, as there are new pokemon being added and not all of the analyses have been finished.

 

[Srn]

Haha sorry for all the feedback in one go, but i'd rather be thorough than short and sweet.

Allrighty.

I'm sorry, but Xatu isn't good outside of Magic Bounce which it doesn't even do that well, and all Bronzong had going for it was it's steel-typing resists, which it lost this gen.

While Bronzong certainly isn't doing as well this gen at last, it just covers a lot of roles (a little offensive presence, hazards, TR setter, can get another pokemon in safely) and I still insist that it deserves a mention. It just does a lot and wraps up a lot of stuff into one pokemon, which is nice.

One of the things that I'm trying to emphasize is that you cannot always rely on having Trick Room up, and so having mid-speed pokemon is a plus since Jirachi's offensive setter set (running Brave, 0 IVs, and Fire Punch) outspeeds and virtually guaranteed OHKO's (93.8%) non-mega Scizor outside of Trick Room post-Stealth Rocks Damage (and a 20% chance to burn).

I'd rather think that outside of TR, TR teams work as a bulky offense. Imo you should just give up on the whole outspeeding prospect and rely on priority or TR to stay ahead.

Marowak isn't very useful outside of trick room, Scrafty isn't very good compared to options like Bisharp, Conkeldurr, Machamp, and others. The only thing Escavalier has over Scizor is its ability to run Assault Vest reliably, other than that it is really outclassed in terms of priority and momentum-gaining. Aggron could get mention as a good sweeper but that is really debatable as it has a 4x Ground and Fighting weakness, pretty common as coverage Earthquake. I love Mega-Abomasnow too, it just has so many weaknesses and takes a ton from all the priority in OU. Honchkrow has quite lackluster defenses, and isn't taking many hits either.

Marowak has a decent amount of bulk, and can definitely work as a member of bulky offense that TR should be like outside of TR. But I can live with not mentioning it. Same with aggron, may have bulk but it has some nasty weaknesses.
Honestly, Scizor can run Assault Vest pretty well too if it wanted to. The thing that Escavalier has that scizor doesn't is ground coverage, in other words, Drill run, in other words, a way to hurt fire types. It doesn't matter if you're AV, both scizor and escavalier are not gonna stay in on fires, but escavalier can really frighten fires with a prospect of drill run.
If Escavalier isn't abusing its allmighty banded megahorn, then honestly, i wouldn't even mention it in this article.
And our boy mega obama really needs some love lmao. It's priority ice shard is pretty powerful and useful, and blizzards are really damn strong. I'll admit that it has basically the worst defensive typing in the game, but it has some nice resists too, like water and ground.
Moreover, it's a mega evolution, and TR is one of the only ways to really utilize mega obamasnow, so I insist that muh boy be mentioned.
Not like it's really outclassed by anything either.

Alakazam, unlike other suicide Trick Room pokemon, can be used outside of setting Trick Room and has a very good offensive presence. It can also completely bypass all hazards/weather, and something many Trick Room teams lack is a reliable late-game trick room setup, which alakazam brings.

Nah, kazam's pretty weak. 120 base speed still loses to ninja, and really, it's not too strong at all. Without a Life Orb or any other boosting item, and a STAB with pretty terrible offensive coverage (forcing it to rely on fairly weak coverage moves), it's not really as threatening as one may think. It's not even bringing in a teammate for free necessarily, which is a sign of a sub-par suicide lead. I still insist that this guy be removed.

Assault vest takes the one thing conkeldurr lacked, and gave him an automatic +1 Boost in it. AV conkeldurr lasts longer than Guts ones, and with all the status flying around it isn't very hard to get the Guts boost. I will add mention Sheer Force+LO and status orb sets [done] though, they definitely have their uses though.

Status certainly isn't "flying around" the tier, especially with the decrease in usage of Rotom-W. A smart player won't even really use status when a guts user is around. And AV sets are so weak, they can't hope to break through stall one bit. AV still only takes weak special attacks a bit better too, it still can't stomach powerful special attackers like char-y and specs keldeo, so I honestly find it more productive to just go with power. Status orb and Sheer Force oughta be the main sets.

Jellicent should not be running offensive, it may have a movepool but without rain boosting its 85 special attack it isn't hitting very hard. Plus, it is far more suited for a defensive setter role, as it has good special defense along with High-HP making up for its kinda disappointing defense.

While i agree perhaps jellicent shouldn't be offensive (but muh water spout), it makes for a pretty garbage defensive pokemon. There's a good reason jellicent is in RU right now. It's mostly due to the prevalence of ghost/dark type moves, and Jellicent is total fodder to these types. The only thing it really does is counter keldeo, cofagrigus is much more beneficial to a TR team in almost any other aspect. And a defensive jellicent really isn't worth it in this meta. Imo there are much better setters, don't mention it at all.

Tyranitar has respectable special attack and even univested is OHKO-ing Mega Scizor Post-SR. Mega-Tyranitar is a different monster with those boosts pretty much everything other than epscial attack. 71 Speed may seem fast, but with -Nature and 0 IVs it speed-ties to neutral base-48s, which is slow. I will mention that it generally favors Physically offensive sets [done].

uh, js, OHKO'ing a mon with a x4 move isn't too impressive, even uninvested. But yeah, 71 base speed can pass.

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Rhyperior doesn't want to take those 4x super effective hits at all, and unlike pokemon who normally use it (D-nite, Aegislash), Rhyperior doesn't have the defensive cushion to fall back on.
[/quote]
It has solid rock, solid HP, and great defense to fall back on, letting it take steel, ground, and fighting moves to activate WP. It can take moves like Bisharp's iron head pretty well and hit back with a boosted eq, which is very nice. ofc just keep it away from grass/waters, but it can actually take physical x2 moves quite well.

I was under the impression that the point of Aegislash was to move after the opponent (why people are running 0IVs and -Nature anyways), guaranteeing you take the hit in shield form before retaliating in Blade-Form. Also, King's Shield eats up a trick room turn, which is not helpful with such a short timer. Aegislash would do better on a different team since they use his speed defensively while Trick Room plays offensively.

Aegislash falls under "the bulky offense works under and out of TR" section, and has some nice priority as well, which is always needed. While I see your point about turn order and stuff, you can simply just use Life Orb or Spooky Plate sets to just knock out pokemon before they can hit you back :]
Also, aegislash can autotomize, which can even serve as a "sweeper." Access to priority, late-game potential, incredible defenses and resistances, and efficiency outside of TR really makes the smogon sword worth mentioning.

Destiny Bond essentially does the same thing, except you can direct all your attention towards buffing defenses so you don't get to the point of needing to explode very easily. In general, defensive setters are not supposed to be killed off so quickly, and I would only consider explosion if you were going offensive Gourgeist.

There's one very important thing you're missing that differentiates Explosion and Destiny Bond. Explosion is gauranteed to give a free switch-in, but Destiny Bond has no gaurantee. You can be certain that you WILL die to explosion and you WILL be able to bring in a wallbreaker, but what's to say the opponent can't just set up while you use destiny bond as waste your own precious Trick Room? Destiny bond "essentially" does the same thing, yes, but if you screw up then the consequences are much more severe.
Gourgeist in general is a pokemon that is pretty easy to set up on, so it's better to Explode than hope that they'll kill you and watch them set up in your face and sweep you.

[/quote]
Malamar is very very VERY bad and brings little that other offensive setters could. His typing is 'interesting', but doesn't have many resists as Dark/Psychic just barely cover each other. And when Physically offensive Magikarp is doing ~34-40% with U-turn, you know you have a problem (I know this doesn't exist, just for emphasis).
252+ Atk Magikarp U-turn vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Malamar: 128-152 (34 - 40.4%) -- 32.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
[/quote]

252+ SpA Smeargle Blizzard vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 236-280 (65.9 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

That doesn't mean that Garchomp is trash.
Yeah, bug weakness sucks, but this guy does a lot of stuff. Sets TR, and can be somewhat threatening. In fact, he's neutral to both ghost and dark, so that's already bringing something that several other TR setters fail to do.
And you're not relying on Dark/Psychic coverage, your main move of choice is Superpower here. Fighting/Dark/Psychic is quite excellent neutral coverage.

Everything else basically sounds good to me :]
Good work on this article!

 

[Mango Smoothie]

I'd rather think that outside of TR, TR teams work as a bulky offense. Imo you should just give up on the whole outspeeding prospect and rely on priority or TR to stay ahead.

I guess that's more of a question of Trick Room Philosphy, which I can fully understand. I guess I feel 'safer' knowing that I don't need Trick Room to deal with some more prevalent problem pokemon, but that's just how I like to play it.

Status certainly isn't "flying around" the tier, especially with the decrease in usage of Rotom-W. A smart player won't even really use status when a guts user is around. And AV sets are so weak, they can't hope to break through stall one bit. AV still only takes weak special attacks a bit better too, it still can't stomach powerful special attackers like char-y and specs keldeo

I completely agree that no intelligent user would try to burn conkeldurr. But a ton of people would love to toxic your setters/burn mega-mawile, which is where Conkeldurr can just jump in. Also, looking at mega-zard Y:

252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr in Sun: 297-351 (71.7 - 84.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Conkeldurr in Sun: 442-522 (106.7 - 126%) -- guaranteed OHKO​

I don't know, that seems to be taking the fire blast in sun better. Granted still not enough to try and live it twice, but it is enough to survive with minimal investment.

Nah, kazam's pretty weak. 120 base speed still loses to ninja, and really, it's not too strong at all. Without a Life Orb or any other boosting item, and a STAB with pretty terrible offensive coverage (forcing it to rely on fairly weak coverage moves), it's not really as threatening as one may think. It's not even bringing in a teammate for free necessarily, which is a sign of a sub-par suicide lead.

Alakazam isn't a lead, it is a late-game guaranteed-outside-of-flinch-hax trick room setter, which helps in closing out games if you choose to run Full-Truck Room. 120 Base speed outspeeds most of OU, and 135 Special attack is pretty high (gets to 369 with 252 EVs). Focus Blast/Dazzling Gleam aren't very weak, and Shadow Ball rounds off that coverage. Actually, it gets (almost) perfect coverage with just Dazzling gleam and Psychic, so you can get in some coverage like HP Ice or Energy Ball. It doesn't get something in guaranteed, but it does guarantee that you get trick room set up, while outspeeding some pretty notable threats in OU (gengar, Landorus's etc)

​

The only thing it really does is counter keldeo, cofagrigus is much more beneficial to a TR team in almost any other aspect. And a defensive jellicent really isn't worth it in this meta. Imo there are much better setters, don't mention it at all.

Cofagrigus and Jellicent are meant to play completely different roles on Trick Room teams. While the former has better offensive presence, Jellicent has access to recover, which means it will be sticking around a bit longer, probably setting up Trick Room one or two more times than Cofagrigus. Otherwise, the only difference in the two sets that I'd recommend is Nasty Pot and Recover, the rest of the sets are the exact same.

uh, js, OHKO'ing a mon with a x4 move isn't too impressive, even uninvested. But yeah, 71 base speed can pass.

It at least gives T-Tar a more-or-less reliable way to get rid of Scizor. He's also got ice beam which is nice for dragons/Landorus-T looking to get a -Attack, which can throw your opponent for a twist. After looking into moveset combinations I have concluded you are right about physical VS mixed T-Tar, moved to physical sweepers.

It has solid rock, solid HP, and great defense to fall back on, letting it take steel, ground, and fighting moves to activate WP

That works until they bring in a pokemon with a water/grass/super-effective special move, forcing you to switch and lose the boosts.

It doesn't matter if you're AV, both scizor and escavalier are not gonna stay in on fires, but escavalier can really frighten fires with a prospect of drill run.

Actually, AV Escavalier can survive HP Fire from Modest Choice Specs Magnezone and OHKO, which CB Escavalier and AV Scizor cannot do.

252+ SpA Smeargle Blizzard vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 236-280 (65.9 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

That doesn't mean that Garchomp is trash.
Yeah, bug weakness sucks, but this guy does a lot of stuff. Sets TR, and can be somewhat threatening. In fact, he's neutral to both ghost and dark, so that's already bringing something that several other TR setters fail to do.
And you're not relying on Dark/Psychic coverage, your main move of choice is Superpower here. Fighting/Dark/Psychic is quite excellent neutral coverage.

I wasn't calling Malamar trash because of the fact that Magikarp does that much damage to it, that was just supporting my claim. My only comment on smeargle calc is that Blizzard is much more powerful than U-Turn and isn't one of the most common pivoting moves in OU. Back on topic Malamar has 0 resists, 1 Immunity (psychic, most setters resist anyways), 1 2x Weakness (Fairy) and 1 4x weakness (Bug). Without the boosts Malamar's attack and Defenses can be somewhat underwhelming, opening the opponent up to bringing in their U-turner the turn you set up Trick Room and then U-Turn out if you superpower, giving them the upper hand in that situation.

Thank you for your suggestions, they have helped a lot.

 

[OLD GREGG (im back baby)]

I do agree there are definitely some picks for Trick Room sweepers that I did not include, but that's because there are generally better choices than pokemon like Escavalier and Druddigon. Escavalier is really only useful under Trick Room, whereas Scizor can make itself useful Trick Room or not. Granted Escavalier hits like a truck, and has decent hp&defenses, and gets coverage options so I can see Escavalier being useable in the lower OU. It's just that Scizor outclasses it in so many ways, but I guess it can do its work so I will add it.

But I disagree with Druddigon. If you decide to use it as a rocks setter, you get 4mss, and have to forego either STAB or the coverage it really needs (Iron Head for fairys, Fire Punch For steels, ThunderPunch for Bulky water, etc) to use Sheer Force. Plus, in terms of Out of Trick Room usage, Druddigon struggles to get much done because (unlike escavalier) it doesn't have anything boosting its defenses.

I updated OP with trick room mechanics/info section, and filled in the analysis of some pokemon, added Escavalier (sorry druddigon). I'm beginning semi-TR section.

(Druddigon) (M) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 136 HP / 216 Atk / 100 Def / 56 SDef
Impish Nature
IVs: 0 Spd
- Rock Slide
- Thunder Punch
- Earthquake
- Gunk Shot

Perfect for Trick Room sweeping. Those Dragon Typing Resistances make this guy deserve, at least, a mention.

 

[Mango Smoothie]

(Druddigon) (M) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 136 HP / 216 Atk / 100 Def / 56 SDef
Impish Nature
IVs: 0 Spd
- Rock Slide
- Thunder Punch
- Earthquake
- Gunk Shot

Perfect for Trick Room sweeping. Those Dragon Typing Resistances make this guy deserve, at least, a mention.

well what do ya know, here is a set for druddigon. I know the set is meant to get a bit bulkier, but could you explain what it's got going for it, other than being more defensive. Because (from experience) Trick Room sweepers tend to need that max offensive presence. Also the lack of STAB is somewhat a put off, because it looks like it is maximizing neutral coverage, while Dragon gets a ton of Neutral coverage as it is.

 

[OLD GREGG (im back baby)]

It's a doubles set I run, if I had built it for singles it would definitely get Dragon Stab.
It has the Mono Dragon resists coming off of improved bulk. Respectable 330 attack with sheer force. I will admit in a singles trick room team the moveset would not be ideal.

 

[Mango Smoothie]

It's a doubles set I run, if I had built it for singles it would definitely get Dragon Stab.
It has the Mono Dragon resists coming off of improved bulk. Respectable 330 attack with sheer force. I will admit in a singles trick room team the moveset would not be ideal.

Yeah Doubles trick room and singles trick room are pretty different. I did add Druddigon to the OP, i'm just trying to find time to get some battles with him in to see how he gets played, if he does at all. He is probably the only viable Pure Trick room Dragon Physical sweeper which is at least somewhat of a niche.

 

[OLD GREGG (im back baby)]

I value him mainly for the predicted fire, water, grass, and electric type attacks that he can tank and sometimes hit back super effectively.

 

[Mango Smoothie]

I dunno it just seems like there are just better dragons in OU besides druddigon. Dragonite, Haxorus, Lati@s, Kyurem,-B all have got more utility than druddigon. However he really is the only "Trick Room Dragon", and so he is getting an analysis. I am going to mention that he is outclassed by some of the other dragons in almost everything outside of Trick Room Sweeping capacity.

Also, completely unrelated, but The level 1 smeargle lead is really fun to use and I've gone 14 battles with one and I in one battle it took out 3 pokemon. The other guy had no idea what was going on and it was beautiful.

 

[OLD GREGG (im back baby)]

All Dragon types generally have good speed, Druddigon's lack of speed gives it a single purpose: Trick Room. Any other time Drud is over looked and outclassed. Just should be a consideration if going the Trick Room route. That is my opinion, for what it is worth.

 

[Mango Smoothie]

All Dragon types generally have good speed, Druddigon's lack of speed gives it a single purpose: Trick Room. Any other time Drud is over looked and outclassed. Just should be a consideration if going the Trick Room route. That is my opinion, for what it is worth.

So we agree then. 120 attack is pretty good, and its bulk is tolerable. Plus, its got a pretty deep movepool and gets neutral coverage with STAB, Gunk Shot, and Fire Punch. Only a few weaknesses, a handful of resists are nice. I can see it working. (sorry acestriker19 for doubting your choice initially)

 

[Ash Borer]

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-8039

user CTC brought a pretty neat Trick Room to a tournament last weekend, he won a few games in the tour and even though he lost this match it's a pretty good showcase of the team and Trick Room use in XY OU. There are some cool ideas in it, like the use of Krookodile so the team can deal with Aegislash and Bisharp without much trouble, and the general team composition. Just thought you might want to check it out.

 

[Mango Smoothie]

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-8039

user CTC brought a pretty neat Trick Room to a tournament last weekend, he won a few games in the tour and even though he lost this match it's a pretty good showcase of the team and Trick Room use in XY OU. There are some cool ideas in it, like the use of Krookodile so the team can deal with Aegislash and Bisharp without much trouble, and the general team composition. Just thought you might want to check it out.

Thanks for the replay, I don't really follow tournaments much so it helps to find out what's going on there. I've actually been making alts and just trying trick room combinations, and I've gotta say I'm really liking the Cofagrigus/Aromatisse TR core, with Lucario and Landorus as late-game sweepers. But yeah, back on topic, that team is really interesting, I'm not sure if he -Nature and min IVed Krookodile, but if he had invested a bit of speed that battle would've gone differently since it can outspeed and OHKO Bisharp with earthquake. Haha maybe if I can catch CTC online I can get his team to add to the guide.

 

[Mango Smoothie]

I think for the most part the guide is finished, having looked through it and fixed up the analyses.

If anyone has any last pokemon to suggest, now would be a good time because I'm getting ready to move it out of WIP for good this time. On a similar note, if you guys have any sets for any of the pokemon then those would be much appreciated.

 

[acestriker19]

Its looking very good I might add hides for categories as it is getting a bit crowded XD. I'll give some sets for some mons I've had experience with.

Eelektross

Eelektross @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 232 HP / 24 Atk / 252 SAtk
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Spd
- Volt Switch
- Giga Drain
- Flamethrower
- Superpower / Knock Off

Gourgeist

Gourgeist-Super @ Leftovers
Ability: Frisk
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SAtk
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spd
- Trick Room
- Destiny Bond / Explosion
- Will-O-Wisp
- Shadow Sneak

Haxorus

Haxorus (M) @ Lum Berry / Life Orb
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 128 Spd / 252 Atk / 128 HP
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Claw / Outrage
- Poison Jab
- Earthquake
- Dragon Dance

Exploud

Exploud @ Choice Specs
Ability: Scrappy
EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 HP / 4 SDef
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Spd
- Boomburst
- Fire Blast / Overheat
- Surf / Overheat
- Focus Blast

Heracross

Heracross @ Heracronite
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 HP / 4 SDef
Adamant Nature
IVs: 2 Spd
- Close Combat
- Pin Missile
- Rock Blast
- Earthquake

2 IVs outspeeds uninvested Aegislash

Rhyperior

Rhyperior @ Leftovers / Life Orb / Assault Vest
Ability: Solid Rock
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 HP / 4 SDef
Adamant Nature
IVs: 0 Spd
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Megahorn / Ice Punch
- Stealth Rock / Megahorn / Ice Punch

Here also are alternative more defensive sets for porygon2 that should be included

Middle of the Road Porygon2

Porygon2 @ Eviolite
Ability: Download
EVs: 252 HP / 116 SAtk / 136 SDef
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Spd
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam
- Recover
- Trick Room

These Evs guarantee a 2HKO on Mega-Zard Y's flamethrower and a OHKO on Mega Pinsir with a +1 T-bolt / Ice Beam

Defensive Porygon2

Porygon2 @ Eviolite
Ability: Trace
EVs: 252 SDef (or 252 Def) / 252 HP / 4 SAtk
Sassy (Bold) Nature
IVs: 0 Spd
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam
- Recover
- Trick Room

 

[Rumors]

Can I suggest Umbreon? My own OU TR team is kind of new, so it isn't close to amazing yet, but I added Umbreon to team since it's provided reliable support for me before and, turns out, it works nicely with TR. It already can function outside of TR, but it certainly does not mind the speed boost. Even though it's not relevant to most games, Umbreon can, amusingly enough, sweep physically-inclined, and some mixed and specially-inclined, hyper-offense teams while under TR with just Foul Play.

I'm running the standard Umbreon set (Wish/Protect/Heal Bell/Foul Play), though I'm running a mixed bulk EV spread rather than the standard physically defensive: 108 HP/200 Def/200 Sp. Def, (there might be a better spread to achieve mixed bulk, but that one works rather nicely for me.)

 

[Mango Smoothie]

Can I suggest Umbreon? My own OU TR team is kind of new, so it isn't close to amazing yet, but I added Umbreon to team since it's provided reliable support for me before and, turns out, it works nicely with TR. It already can function outside of TR, but it certainly does not mind the speed boost. Even though it's not relevant to most games, Umbreon can, amusingly enough, sweep physically-inclined, and some mixed and specially-inclined, hyper-offense teams while under TR with just Foul Play.

I don't think Umbreon fits into the 'offensive' category, because even with Foul Play it is taking a ton of damage by way of the boosted attacks it is trying to punish. I think it's job is better left as a wall, and I'm not saying that it doesn't have its use, but I wouldn't go as far as to say it is a 'Trick Room' Pokemon. It could possibly fall under the 'Trick Room Support', and it could probably make a decent Cleric/Wishpasser with that low of speed, but Aromatisse doubles as a setter, and if you really needed a big wall Chansey is always there. Foul Play would probably be the one seperating factor, but that's more of a novelty and you said it yourself "not relevent to most games". Quite honestly it lacks offensive presence, and I'd probably wait a bit to see how your team pans out to determine umbreon's merit, and how much use it gets. Best of luck

 

[Rumors]

Sorry if it seemed like I was suggesting Umbreon for offensive. I meant more that it being able to sweep with a support set and EV spread was more of a nifty, and unexpected, perk that can make a difference in some battles rather than a major reason to use it.

Rather, I was suggesting it for support. Outside of the typical reasons to use Umbreon (bulky, punish status users, STAB Foul Play, cleric support, etc.), it's appeal to a TR team, IMO, is its mono-Dark typing lets it eat Dark and Ghost-type attacks for the numerous Psychic and Ghost TR setters (who synergize back defensively by being able to take Fighting and, in the latter case, Bug attacks) and that it doesn't really mind if TR is up or down on any given turn. It does stack a Bug weakness with Psychic setters though, which is something to keep in mind.

I'm running at atm with Slowbro and Chandy as setters, so it plays rather well with them.

 

[Mango Smoothie]

Sorry if it seemed like I was suggesting Umbreon for offensive. I meant more that it being able to sweep with a support set and EV spread was more of a nifty, and unexpected, perk that can make a difference in some battles rather than a major reason to use it.

Rather, I was suggesting it for support. Outside of the typical reasons to use Umbreon (bulky, punish status users, STAB Foul Play, cleric support, etc.), it's appeal to a TR team, IMO, is its mono-Dark typing lets it eat Dark and Ghost-type attacks for the numerous Psychic and Ghost TR setters (who synergize back defensively by being able to take Fighting and, in the latter case, Bug attacks) and that it doesn't really mind if TR is up or down on any given turn. It does stack a Bug weakness with Psychic setters though, which is something to keep in mind.

I'm running at atm with Slowbro and Chandy as setters, so it plays rather well with them.

(sorry for the delayed reply, I saw your post and then it didnt occur to me that I had forgotten to reply)

Yeah, Umbreon is decently slow so being able to support/foul play before taking a hit is handy I give it that. It's also got good synergy with your setters, which is good since they all cover each other's weaknesses. However, I don't think it brings anything specific to Trick Room teams, even though it may give support. Trick Room is definitely very Offensive, and Umbreon doesn't really fit that category, since Foul Play is mostly dependent in the opponent's attack.

On a side note, I'm really having trouble getting sets together for some of the pokemon, so I was wondering if anyone with experience playing with some of these pokemon could help me out on that. Most of the movesets are fairly standard though, which is nice. Also I'm going through and alphabetizing the lists to ease searching [done]

EDIT 5/11 Only have sets left to make for:
Trevennant
Kyurem-B
Latios
Lucario
Mega Pinsir
Salamence
Talonflame
Terrakion
Volcarona

After this, I think the guide is officially going out of WIP phase. The end is almost here guys! (also, if anyone has sets for these pokemon, please please PLEASE pm me them or put them in the comments because I'm losing my mind making sets).

EDIT 5/12
Well I finished the sets a day or two before expected, and here is the completed guide. I'm taking it out of WIP now, thank you all for your help.

 

[PISTOLERO]

you might want to mention a trapper gothitelle set

an example of this is Psyshic, Calm Mind, Rest, Trick Room, which can trap and kill annoying defensive pokemon (that TR tends to struggle against) and kills them, and can - maybe - sweep if there are no dark types. this is a thing in Ubers, maybe it would work in OU

 

[Kangaaroo]

holy shit I was going to am check this but...so much....