Gallade (Lead)

[mien]

I don't see why anyone should consider this set is over the standard anti-lead Machamp.
The reason why Machamp is so popular as an anti-lead compared to the others is because it is (nearly)uncounterable. Every other anti-lead like this Gallade can be dealt with easily by sending in a counter, in Gallade's case Zapdos, Gyarados or Rotom. This cannot be done against Machamp leads giving it's user a serious advantage.
I know that your average shoddy battler is stupid enough to let his Azelf stay in on Gallade, but any serious competitive player will not. As such it's succes is limited to average shoddy games,

The only reason to consider this set is to beat Machamp leads. Personally i don't see how it's worth sacrificing Machamps performance just to beat 6% of leads. Not to mention that you don't really beat it as your opponent can simply switch out a counter and bring Machamp in later...

My two cents on this

edit: Curtains, first of all i don't know how you beat Zapdos, it can only be beaten if you predict it switching in(which you can't as you don't have any info of his team), also most people don't switch Heatran into Gallade either.
Second Machamp's bulk and overpowered Dynamicpunch can beat far more pokemon 1 on 1 then Gallade can, i suppose this is unquestionable.

 

[Curtains]

I don't see why anyone should consider this set is over the standard anti-lead machamp.
The reason why machamp is so popular as an anti-lead compared to the others is because it is (nearly)uncounterable. Every other anti-lead like this Gallade can be dealt with easily by sending in a counter, in Gallade's case Zapdos, Gyarados or Rotom. This cannot be done against Machamp leads giving it's user a serious advantage.
I know that your average shoddy battler is stupid enough to let his Azelf stay in on Gallade, but any serious competitive player will not. As such it's succes is limited to average shoddy games,

The only reason to consider this set is to beat machamp leads. Personally i don't see how it's worth sacrificing Machamps performance just to beat 6% of leads.

My two cents on this

If this were another one of the many anti-lead sets like colbur elf (yuk) then i would agree but this set actually kills more things other than machamp and is very effective. In testing the jolly 252/252 offensive spread it just been a field day picking off heatran and stuff like zapdos and other slow stuff. This is actually better than machamp because its even more stronger and faster.The speed makes a huge differnence in the amount of kills i get and i think it should be the primary spread.

 

[Dave]

Mien, you don't seem to get it. Gallade beats just as many leads as Machamp, and can even take on Rotom 1v1 assuming you aren't a bad player and Stone Edge/Zen Headbutt the turn rotom switches is as the priority is huge. Machamp is a great lead, but this metagame he is completely useless. Most pokemon in this metagame use CB/LO/Colbur Zelf and Specs Heatran, so you won't be doing much with your Machamp to be honest.

Gallade on the other hand, outspeeds EVERY lead tran, can survive anything CB Zelf throws at it for the most part and still receiving the KO, the only poke Jolly with LO doesn't beat is Rade and of course many Rades may mistake it for Lum and just go for the TSpikes. Gallade puts you in an extreme advantage. The reason I prefer Stone Edge over Ice Punch is simple. Gliscor is easily one of the most counterable pokemon, with Shaymin/waters running around it's an easy switch in to beat, also Nites are lead anymore so Stone Edge is the ideal move, especially for switch ins as it hits them hard and a lot of times for Neutral.

I have personally tried Ice Punch and Stone Edge in a myriad of matches to see what was the superior and quite frankly, Stone Edge garnered a lot more kills and a lot more damage as Ice Punch did virtually nothing, Ice Punch only hits a hand full of things while Stone Edge is the over all superior move, albeit its accuracy.

 

[Curtains]

edit: Curtains, first of all i don't know how you beat Zapdos, it can only be beaten if you predict it switching in(which you can't as you don't have any info of his team), also most people don't switch Heatran into Gallade either.
Second Machamp's bulk and overpowered Dynamicpunch can beat far more pokemon 1 on 1 then Gallade can, i suppose this is unquestionable.

well JOLLY 252atk/252spe offensive gallade (i guess i didn't make that clear) can outspeed and hit heatran and zapdos super effectively assuming zapdos does not run many speed ev's. gallade hits 284 speed with that spread.

 

[Chillarmy]

Why would you use this over Swords Dance / Close Combat / Shadow Sneak / Ice Punch @ Lum Berry? It beats all the same shit and has midgame relevance. I thought that was the "standard" Gallade lead set?

I have to agree with RL here. Swords Dance gives Gallade the edge against Skarmory and Forretress while still KOing most of the leads that this set can take on. Leaf Blade isn't a primary option, so this set won't even beat Pert most of the time.

Adamant with Leaf Blade and Zen Headbutt, instead of Psycho Cut, does all this and OHKO's Swampert and Machamp.

How do those two attacks have advantages over Swords Dance? I'd rather have Gallade at +2 than let Skarmory set Spikes up in my face; and isn't the point of an anti-lead to give your team some momentum from the start of the game? You can KO opposing leads, but they'll either get SR up and die, or will just switch something in that can force Gallade out or use it as set up fodder.

 

[Dave]

Lol, always having that 6-5 advantage is what gives you edge in a battle, sr is up, woo hoo? There are multiple ways to deal with it, you could have 0 sr weak pokes, that takes only 12% per switch in or you can simply rapid spin and make them waste a pokemon. It's up to you.

Pert is 2 hit ko'd by Gallade, so lets say I CC, he can A) Atk or B) Get up SR. If he attacks, he prob won't kill anyway, and if he SR's you lose 20% and he's KO'd. While SD is a great necessity to have, it also henders you in a plethora of ways by taking the extra turn to SD, and so many things can ruin Gallade's day when using SD that it isn't worth it. Id rather switch in, get a hard hit in, switch him out and save him for when I need him again.

 

[Chillarmy]

Lol, always having that 6-5 advantage is what gives you edge in a battle, sr is up, woo hoo? There are multiple ways to deal with it, you could have 0 sr weak pokes, that takes only 12% per switch in or you can simply rapid spin and make them waste a pokemon. It's up to you.

I never said that being at 6-5 doesn't give you the edge in a battle, nor did I say that every lead will stay in, set up SR and faint - Azelf as an example, can use SR on turn one, take the 60%, switch out, then switch back in later to nuke something. My point was that Gallade wouldn't give that many Pokemon the chance to set up other entry hazards or boosts by running Swords Dance. It doesn't have to be the primary option, but it at least deserves a mention over Zen Headbutt (since its main purpose is to OHKO Machamp while maintaining coverage on Rotom (+2 Shadow Sneak 2HKOes defensive and Scarf Rotom while they can't OHKO in return btw)).

Pert is 2 hit ko'd by Gallade, so lets say I CC, he can A) Atk or B) Get up SR. If he attacks, he prob won't kill anyway, and if he SR's you lose 20% and he's KO'd. While SD is a great necessity to have, it also henders you in a plethora of ways by taking the extra turn to SD, and so many things can ruin Gallade's day when using SD that it isn't worth it. Id rather switch in, get a hard hit in, switch him out and save him for when I need him again.

I'm not saying that a +2 Gallade is by any means good, but rather it can hold its own and force the team that it's facing into a corner while still functioning as a decent anti-lead.

 

[Azlanslayer]

This lead freaking pwns alot if thing...

You can use Expert Belt without losing any Health but still getting those KOs you want.

Bah, i actually wanted to make a analysis of gallade, but seems i'm Late :O..Name it Anti-Lead Gallade btw,

Nice Job!

 

[yond]

This lead freaking pwns alot if thing...

You can use Expert Belt without losing any Health but still getting those KOs you want.

Bah, i actually wanted to make a analysis of gallade, but seems i'm Late :O..Name it Anti-Lead Gallade btw,

Nice Job!

I think attacker lead suites it better since, like Machamp, it doesn't prevent everything (aero, pert, azelf) from setting up but if gives the user the offensive momentum and a 6-5 advantage as Stone said.

 

[Chou Toshio]

"Anti-Leads" Dragonite and Machamp don't prevent SR either. :/

 

[Frost Nocturne]

I've been using this set to great success in the current metagame for about a month now. In fact, I was actually going to submit this same set today until I regretfully discovered you had beaten me to it!

I've been using 252/252 Adamant LO with Leaf Blade, and it's very useful to get the KO on an unsuspecting swampert lead who assumes you only 2HKO, and is also helpful against other leads such as starmie and for breaking azelf's sash so don't have to reveal Shadow Sneak first turn and can then finish off azelf thinking they can explode. Leaf Blade also has use later in the match, 2HKOing waters like vappy and suicune (the extra crit chance is also nice here). So, especially considering the consistent presence of Swampert as a top 5 lead, I think Leaf Blade should get a slash or at least be in other options.

Concerning Swords Dance: I really think this is a waste of a moveslot for a lead gallade. There are just way too many things that force it out, (especially considering the coverage you lose) meaning you waste a turn dancing when you could be KOing a lead and putting dents in their team.

I'm going to test out jolly, but everything looks great, I definitely recommend max speed though with either nature if only to outspeed heatran.

 

[Ghost.]

Concerning Swords Dance: I really think this is a waste of a moveslot for a lead gallade. There are just way too many things that force it out, (especially considering the coverage you lose) meaning you waste a turn dancing when you could be KOing a lead and putting dents in their team.

Yeah god damn that Fighting / Ghost coverage... it doesn't even hit every single 'Mon for neutral!!!!!!! ¬_¬ Oh wait....

Well Fighting / Rock (Stone Edge > Ice Punch) suc....oh...yeah...awesome move combination.

I'd much prefer Swords Dance to Leaf Blade or some other shit move like Zen Headbutt that doesn't give you much more coverage at all if not for the simple reason you tear through stall. I'd be tempted to drop the Lum for a LO to keep the OHKO on Pert after a SD and constant benefit.

 

[Stellar]

Although I would rather switch out against lead Jirachi, you do have a chance to beat them when using an item other than Life Orb if they use Stealth Rock the first turn and are not Choice Scarf.

Turn 1:
Jirachi uses Stealth Rock
Gallade uses Close Combat (56.1% - 66.1%)

Turn 2:
Jirachi uses Iron Head (84.2% - 99.3%)
Gallade flinched! (Steadfast yields +1 Speed)

Turn 3:
Gallade uses Close Combat (56.1% - 66.1%)
Jirachi fainted!

You also KO on Turn 2 without the flinch. Either way you "win" but it might result in Gallade having only ~8% average HP left.

 

[MetaNite]

Without Zen Headbutt, you won't necessarily beat the #2 lead Machamp. It can just confuse you. If you do have Lum Berry to beat Machamp, you won't beat the #1 lead Azelf. It is very difficult for Gallade to sweep, but easy for Gallade to hit something as hard as a truck and get the hell out of there. I've been testing out Jolly Gallade and while I do sometimes miss the power from Adamant and the bulk, it has net me more kills especially later in the game. I made that the primary option and dropped X-Scissor in favour of Stone Edge. Ice Punch let's you hit Celebi and Gliscor, while Stone Edge hits Gyarados and Zapdos. The chose really depends on your team. I wouldn't say either one is inferior to another, for instance, if Gallade is the only thing I have left to prevent Dragonite from sweeping me, I don't want to be missing a Stone Edge. Same thing about Gyarados, depending on what your team fears more. As for the name, what this Gallade is unquestionably doing is leading, which is why I chose the simple name Lead. I also think that Machamp and Dragonite should have their set names as simply "Lead" unless there is another set already with that name. But that's for another thread.

 

[mien]

Mien, you don't seem to get it. Gallade beats just as many leads as Machamp, and can even take on Rotom 1v1 assuming you aren't a bad player and Stone Edge/Zen Headbutt the turn rotom switches is as the priority is huge. Machamp is a great lead, but this metagame he is completely useless. Most pokemon(i'm going to assume you mean people) in this metagame use CB/LO/Colbur Zelf and Specs Heatran, so you won't be doing much with your Machamp to be honest..

Did you actually do some research and read my argument before making the claim 'you don't seem to get it'?
I never claimed that Machamp beats more leads 1 on 1 then Gallade does. Many people here seem to think that the anti-lead who beats the most (common) leads is the best, assuming everyone is stupid enough to actually stay in...

This isn't true as your opponent can simply switch out to a counter , completely ruining the concept of sacrificing early entry hazards to gain an early momentum.

This can't be done against Machamp as it basically has no counters. As such your opponent will lose a pokemon or get heavy damage against Machamp no matter what against nearly every lead. This is a guarentee Gallade cannot provide and thus an inferior anti-lead(same goes for all those other anti-leads i've seen here like Abomasnow and Medicham)

I'll admit Rotom is not a true counter, though a Close Combat can easily predicted from a lead position, as the Gallade user doesn't know you have a Rotom anyway.

All these pokemon you mentioned in your final sentence are actually quite rare

| Azelf | Item | Colbur Berry | 10.3
Seeing as Azelf leads consist 9.46% of all leads only 0.95% of all leads are in fact colbur Azelf, less then 1 in 100 leads which is not what i consider 'common'
Life Orb Azelf is only used on none lead Azelfs so that's irrelevant now
Choice Band Azelf and Choice Spec's Heatran aren't even listed in the statistics.

None of these pokemon you mentioned are actually part of 'this' metagame and are in my opinion not a reason to consider Gallade over Machamp at all. Even if they would be more popular Machamp would still be superior because of facts stated above.

well JOLLY 252atk/252spe offensive gallade (i guess i didn't make that clear) can outspeed and hit heatran and zapdos super effectively assuming zapdos does not run many speed ev's. gallade hits 284 speed with that spread.

I did notice that, that set can't beat defensive Zapdos as it simply can Roost until you die from Life orb damage(unless you predict Zapdos switching in but that's impossible from a lead position). Also nobody in the right mind keeps Heatran in to Gallade something i said in my previous post.

---------------------------------------------
To everyone:
My suggestion would be trying to find a set, 'a role' that is unique to Gallade only, instead of trying to make sets for Gallade(and BL pokemon in general) that are outclassed by standard pokemon in general.

For example Gallade is the only Fighting type that learns T-wave. As such you can run a much bulkier spread while supporting a team that benefits from Paralyse support(like bulky offense) while doing heavy damage, instead of 'trying' to outspeed something with Gallade's mediocore speed for sweeper standards
Gallade also can use WoW which works well with it's high SpD and unlike Rotom, Heatran can't switch into it.

I'm not saying those sets are 'top' tier but they can be provide a niche nothing in standard can. Unlike this lead set, which might be succesfull but simply is outclassed.

 

[Dave]

First: yeah I meant people, sorry for the typo. I rarely proof read unless it's something that I absolutely have to proof read.

First, I know what you meant by Machamp, but bar Stone Edge and Dynamic Punch, Anti-Lead Champs attacks won't be hitting pokes as hard as Gallade, Gallade not only serves the purpose of getting quick kills on a lead stand point but it also can heavily damage nearly every switch in from an Offensive Stand point making it a beautiful pokemon to have. Bar celebi you can't safely switch into it.

 

[mien]

First: yeah I meant people, sorry for the typo. I rarely proof read unless it's something that I absolutely have to proof read.

First, I know what you meant by Machamp, but bar Stone Edge and Dynamic Punch, Anti-Lead Champs attacks won't be hitting pokes as hard as Gallade, Gallade not only serves the purpose of getting quick kills on a lead stand point but it also can heavily damage nearly every switch in from an Offensive Stand point making it a beautiful pokemon to have. Bar celebi you can't safely switch into it.

Celebi is it's only counter if you predict correctly and assume it has CC, Zen Headbut, Shadow, Ice punch and SE which of course it can't.. If it has Ice Punch Gyarados beats it, with SE Gliscor can counter it.
Besides it's impossible to predict correctly from a lead standpoint unless you know your opponents team, as such most 'checks' will suffice.

Meanwhile Machamp always adds the risk of confusion, even if you predict the Dynamicpunch comming you still can get beaten by the confusion damage.

 

[MetaNite]

This can't be done against Machamp as it basically has no counters.

I don't know why you are saying Machamp has no counters. Gyarados counters it well enough, RestTalk Gyarados nearly perfectly. Sure you risk confusion damage, but if Machamp switches out, Gyarados did its job as a counter. And don't forget, if it switches in on lead Machamp it doesn't have to worry about Stealth Rock. Dusknoir also counters Machamp pretty well, although it is uncommon. Skarmory counters Machamp if it has Brave Bird since Machamp can't quite do enough with just DynamicPunch. You have to rely on confusion to beat it. CroCune comes in with little problem and can easily outstall DynamicPunch's PP. Hippowdon risks confusion, but unless it hurts itself a few times in a row it has successfully countered Machamp and Slacks Off the damage. Zapdos can even counter Machamp if need be. Ice Punch only does a mere 30% to defensive Zapdos, while it threatens to outstall Machamp's precious DynamicPunch PP with Pressure. You need prediction and confusion damage to beat it.

Gallade's Life Orb Close Combat actually does A LOT more damage than Lead Machamp's DynamicPunch, so it's not "weaker" in that regard. In the end though, both Machamp and Gallade have advantages as well as disadvantages and warrant sets on site.

 

[Dave]

Celebi is it's only counter if you predict correctly and assume it has CC, Zen Headbut, Shadow, Ice punch and SE which of course it can't.. If it has Ice Punch Gyarados beats it, with SE Gliscor can counter it.
Besides it's impossible to predict correctly from a lead standpoint unless you know your opponents team, as such most 'checks' will suffice.

Meanwhile Machamp always adds the risk of confusion, even if you predict the Dynamicpunch comming you still can get beaten by the confusion damage.

Well, as mentioned earlier, I prefer Stone Edge, Gliscor is rarely used these days and is also one of the easiest pokemon to counter. Gyara on the other hand won't be liking a Stone Edge/Zen Headbutt, and even a CC does good damage if it switches into it.

Machamp on the other hand is a lot easier to handle, everything for the most part outspeeds it, so you have can easily find a way to whittle it down, even if it means switching, taking a neutral hit, hitting it, switching to another poke and finishing it off.

Gallade on the other hand, has 284 speed, you have to be careful about what you send into it because not only will you be taking massive damage from one of his attacks, but if you don't think he is jolly, you can easily be fooled.


Edit: And wait for the stats to be updated or something because I face a CB Zelf on nearly every lead I see these days.

 

[Frost Nocturne]

Yeah god damn that Fighting / Ghost coverage... it doesn't even hit every single 'Mon for neutral!!!!!!! ¬_¬ Oh wait....

Well Fighting / Rock (Stone Edge > Ice Punch) suc....oh...yeah...awesome move combination.

I'd much prefer Swords Dance to Leaf Blade or some other shit move like Zen Headbutt that doesn't give you much more coverage at all if not for the simple reason you tear through stall. I'd be tempted to drop the Lum for a LO to keep the OHKO on Pert after a SD and constant benefit.

Well without Zen Headbutt you lose to machamp leads, the ability to OHKO such a popular and often troublesome lead is one of the most attractive features of the set imo. Yes, we know how great fighting/ghost coverage is but I'm not sure how you "tear through stall" when you have no way to take down defensive rotom if you lack night slash or zen headbutt. If you replace Shadow Sneak for Night Slash you then lose to fast focus sash leads like Azelf. I agree that Swords Dance has greater utility later in the match but should not be the primary option for a lead imo.

 

[Chillarmy]

Well without Zen Headbutt you lose to machamp leads, the ability to OHKO such a popular and often troublesome lead is one of the most attractive features of the set imo. Yes, we know how great fighting/ghost coverage is but I'm not sure how you "tear through stall" when you have no way to take down defensive rotom if you lack night slash or zen headbutt. If you replace Shadow Sneak for Night Slash you then lose to fast focus sash leads like Azelf. I agree that Swords Dance has greater utility later in the match but should not be the primary option for a lead imo.

With Lum, Gallade won't lose to Machamp leads unless Payback and Bullet Punch get some sick damage rolls. Secondly, a +2 Shadow Sneak 2HKOes defensive Rotom-A and Lum prevents it from crippling Gallade.

Just throwing that out there.

 

[RaikouLover]

I guess my post about how this thing is outclassed by a simple Swords Dance / Close Combat / ICe Punch / Shadow Sneak @ Lum Berry Gallade jus went ignored.... Main thing being "midgame significance" which this Life Orb set pretty much lacks...

 

[Frost Nocturne]

With Lum, Gallade won't lose to Machamp leads unless Payback and Bullet Punch get some sick damage rolls. Secondly, a +2 Shadow Sneak 2HKOes defensive Rotom-A and Lum prevents it from crippling Gallade.

Just throwing that out there.

Good points. If you want it, I think SD would work best with a moveset of SD/CC/SS and either Zen Headbutt or Stone Edge in the last slot.

 

[Towelie]

Ya RL pretty much hit the nail on the head... The SD one helps against stall, provides mid-game use, beats machamp still, has good coverage, bla bla bla. The other Gallade lead is a lot better than this one...

 

[panamaxis]

I guess my post about how this thing is outclassed by a simple Swords Dance / Close Combat / ICe Punch / Shadow Sneak @ Lum Berry Gallade jus went ignored.... Main thing being "midgame significance" which this Life Orb set pretty much lacks...

What are you doing vs Machamp? CCing and then losing due to the defense drop? (i'm assuming it would not 100% sure). SDing and then hoping they don't switch to a counter? Machamp --> Rotom --> Scizor for example can ruin you if you SD first turn. I might be wrong but it seems like you'd be trading losing to the #2 lead for more midgame usage and as this is meant to win lead matchups for you I'm not sure its worth it. Tbh it's probably not that likely that Gallade will be sweeping with SD so just spamming CC can you give "midgame use". At the above poster that SD gallade fails to beat defensive rotom and gyarados, which the other gallade has an easier time with so actually that set does worse against stall.

HOWEVER

Please tell me if I'm wrong as I'm not completely sure.