Drugs Debate

[Lexay]

Actually, I can't see how Marijuana puts someone else besides yourself to danger. Do you mean people who are standing next to you are unwillingly inhaling THC, which means it's 'bad' for their health? Or do you mean traffic danger etc? In that case, why shouldn't it be legalized? Because I honestly don't see any danger in driving under the influence of marijuana. At least not much.

 

[sbc]

I'm sorry, but there's way too much wrong with this post to let it go.

Ever heard of peyote? It's smoked (well, it WAS smoked) by Native Americans as part of their religious rituals; it gives an out-of-body feeling, which made them believe it brought them closer to their greater powers. It was illegalized by white men, pretty much based solely on the fact that the "Injuns" liked it so much. They smoked it for HUNDREDS of years, long before this wonderful country of ours was ever established. So shouldn't that be legal, too, in your opinion?

The use and history of a drug should have absolutely no bearing on this debate whatsoever. That's like a fraternity who hazes their pledges, and when those pledges become brothers they turn around and haze the pledges after them. Why? "Because it's tradition." Fuck that noise. Just because alcohol has been imbibed for thousands of years doesn't make it any less dangerous. Were there drunk driving accidents back in 1875? Were there wasted airline pilots in 1776? Times change. Laws need to do the same.

Unless you haven't realised times have changed, the likelihood of people coming and invading any developed country and making alcohol/tobacco illegal is 0.00001.

The difference between cannabis, heroin and whatever and alcohol/tobacco is that the latter are used by a signifcant proportion of the population and have been for hundreds/thousands of years.

25% of the adult population in the UK smoke tobacco, and only 30 years ago it was almost double that; does 25% of the adult population do weed? I don't think so. Alcohol is used by god-knows how many people, probably the majority of the population and more importantly even the law makers and governors of a country on a regular basis. It's also a big part of social events for a significant number of people.

It would be impossible to effectively make alcohol/tobacco illegal so even though they are as dangerous as other drugs, you cannot say "if alcohol/tobacco is legal why isn't drug x legal?"

 

[Carl]

It would be impossible to effectively make alcohol/tobacco illegal so even though they are as dangerous as other drugs, you cannot say "if alcohol/tobacco is legal why isn't drug x legal?"

Um, yes you can? Explain to me the logic behind saying two things are the same or similar and then saying that it's perfectly OK to make one illegal and the other one not. Here let me put this in pokemon terms. That would be like saying using an Action Replay is complete 100% cheating but that using PokeSav is not cheating at all. They both essentially do the same thing, what makes PokeSav any more legal than Action Replay?

I don't think anyone in favor of legalizing any drug in this topic is in favor of outlawing alcohol. It's just part of a double standard that really shouldn't exist which is the only reason it's even brought up when comparing the legislation.

 

[Basics]

Well Basics, argument number 1 is also a little different though. Sure McDonalds and Coke are bad for you, but when you eat and drink them, you're not hurting anybody. But with drugs, they can prove very harmful to other people, such as second-hand smoke, drunk driving and the altered mentality.

Some of these drugs are made illegal, because although you may use them responsibly, unfortunately, a huge chunk of people don't seem to get it that they have to be used in moderation, and therefore start to use them so much that it harms other people too. If everyone was using them responsibly, then sure, maybe there would be more favour for legalization, but as it stands, the chunk of people who don't feel like using drugs responsibly are the reason that a lot of drugs are legal.

If any drugs were to actually be made legal though, weed would be the only one, since the other illegal ones seem a lot more dangerous.

Lol, "second-hand smoke." Let's take the effects of smoking and compare them to every factory, heated building and automobile in the world, and see what's doing the most damage. If you're going ban something because it pollutes the air, you're looking at a lot more than cigarettes.

 

[monkfish]

Just to clear this up: SkarmBlissCounter is arguing the practicality of implementing new laws rather than the reasoning behind the implementation. DM is arguing the reasoning rather than the practicality. Hopefully you're now on the same page.

 

[akuchi]

25% of the adult population in the UK smoke tobacco, and only 30 years ago it was almost double that; does 25% of the adult population do weed? I don't think so. /quote]

One in THREE young men [18-25] smoke pot at least once a month [and one in five women in the same age range].

 

[sbc]

Um, yes you can? Explain to me the logic behind saying two things are the same or similar and then saying that it's perfectly OK to make one illegal and the other one not. Here let me put this in pokemon terms. That would be like saying using an Action Replay is complete 100% cheating but that using PokeSav is not cheating at all. They both essentially do the same thing, what makes PokeSav any more legal than Action Replay?

I don't think anyone in favor of legalizing any drug in this topic is in favor of outlawing alcohol. It's just part of a double standard that really shouldn't exist which is the only reason it's even brought up when comparing the legislation.

I'm not saying that alcohol is better or worse than any drug all I'm saying is that there are reasons beyond its effect on people why alcohol is still legal which seems to be the bane of most people's arguments here.

Also: Akuchi regarding your statistics, I said the entire adult population, obviously more 18-25 year old men smoke pot than say 50+ year old women. A quick google reveals that in the US the same statistics for smokers are 44.6%, also I'd like to know your source for that too

 

[akuchi]

it was in a newspaper lately, probably the Guardian as that's the one generally lying around at home.

And yes, I know you said for the population - I'm just making the point it is pretty fucking common.

Perhaps not everyone in the country will be smoking it at 50, but the fact 33% / 20% of the adult population have smoked it regularly says quite a lot.

 

[DM]

While alcohol being legal and marijuana not being legal may not make much sense, I don't see how that is a decent argument for the legalization of marijuana. Perhaps it should be an argument for prohibition.

A very good point. I'm of the mindset that it's either all or nothing, and as you can tell I'm obviously on the "all" side.

It would be impossible to effectively make alcohol/tobacco illegal so even though they are as dangerous as other drugs, you cannot say "if alcohol/tobacco is legal why isn't drug x legal?"

Why is it effectively impossible to make them illegal? Because people will find a way to get them ANYWAY. Remember prohibition in the 30s? People made their own booze and sold it themselves. The only thing we can thank prohibition for is NASCAR and the American Mob; thanks a fucking LOT.

It doesn't matter that heroin is illegal, people use it every day. It doesn't matter that marijuana is illegal, people use it every day. Its illegality causes murders, because drug dealers are killing each other for the much heralded selling territory. Legalize it and END this nonsense once and for all.

Just to clear this up: SkarmBlissCounter is arguing the practicality of implementing new laws rather than the reasoning behind the implementation. DM is arguing the reasoning rather than the practicality. Hopefully you're now on the same page.

I find the difference between the two means nil. What does practicality have to do with implementing new laws? Using practicality as an excuse for refusing to advance a society is a huge cop-out in my eyes.

 

[monkfish]

Let me rephrase: SkarmBlissCounter is arguing the practicality of illegalising alcohol and tobacco, which are so great a part of western culture that their prohibition would have a massive negative impact on society. Perhaps the same argument could not be posed for the legalisation of marijuana, which is the point you are pressing.

 

[metalScyther]

While alcohol being legal and marijuana not being legal may not make much sense, I don't see how that is a decent argument for the legalization of marijuana. Perhaps it should be an argument for prohibition.

The real argument against the legalization of marijuana, completely unmentioned in Basics' post, is that marijuana can make you a danger to others. That is, as you requested, a logical reason to ban it. I don't care if you hurt yourself with your drug habits, but I care if you hurt somebody else. That is punishing others for your own poor choices.

Yes, I know that alcohol puts you at a far higher risk of hurting others. I know that. That doesn't mean that marijuana should be legalized.

How does me smoking a bowl in my house harm anyone else but myself? I'm not punishing you, or any other person in the world. I'm only rewarding, or, in your eyes, harming myself. I don't see where these preconceived notions about weed come from. People don't smoke a bowl and go shoot someone or go rob someone. They usually stay where they are at and chill the fuck out. The "harming others" bullshit is still one of the worst arguments supporting marijuana prohibition in my opinion.

 

[Basics]

How does me smoking a bowl in my house harm anyone else but myself? I'm not punishing you, or any other person in the world. I'm only rewarding, or, in your eyes, harming myself. I don't see where these preconceived notions about weed come from. People don't smoke a bowl and go shoot someone or go rob someone. They usually stay where they are at and chill the fuck out. The "harming others" bullshit is still one of the worst arguments supporting marijuana prohibition in my opinion.

Marijuana KILLS.

 

[Bulblax]

most people do weed anyway just because other people do it ;/

needless to say I don't do drugs

and NO ONE my age smokes cigarettes. at all. I don't know anyone, but I know tons of people who smoke weed. and drink and shit.

hey, go for the illegal stuff I guess. xd

 

[monkfish]

most people do weed anyway just because other people do it

Your basis for this ridiculous statement?

 

[Lexay]

Unless you haven't realised times have changed, the likelihood of people coming and invading any developed country and making alcohol/tobacco illegal is 0.00001.

The difference between cannabis, heroin and whatever and alcohol/tobacco is that the latter are used by a signifcant proportion of the population and have been for hundreds/thousands of years.

25% of the adult population in the UK smoke tobacco, and only 30 years ago it was almost double that; does 25% of the adult population do weed? I don't think so. Alcohol is used by god-knows how many people, probably the majority of the population and more importantly even the law makers and governors of a country on a regular basis. It's also a big part of social events for a significant number of people.

It would be impossible to effectively make alcohol/tobacco illegal so even though they are as dangerous as other drugs, you cannot say "if alcohol/tobacco is legal why isn't drug x legal?"

Wow. Just wow.
Have you ever thought maybe alcohol is consumed more because it never was fucking illegal? Jesus christ, ofcourse there aren't as many people smoking weed as people drinking alcohol. That's not what were discussing either. Shit.

edit: by the way, in the Netherlands as you obviously know already, is Cannabis legal. This does not mean, however, you can use it anywhere you want. For example you can't just smoke in the middle of the street. But it's legal, doesn't get cut with crap (hence why its so fucking good) and it WORKS. It would be obviously against the law to use heroin (or other drugs that could harm people around you i guess) in public if it were legalized. Duh.

 

[sbc]

I was talking about it in context to legalising drugs since a lot of people seem to be saying that if alcohol is legal blah blah blah should be legal.

 

[CZ]

My opinion,

It all depends on the drug. If weed were legal, I would smoke it much more often than I do now (which is very rarely), Marijuana is not bad as itself, but it is a gateway drug, as it was for me.
I used to be a big stoner in my middle years of high school, than I became a big drinker (an alcohol related car accident almost took my life). After that, I became a pill head, with Vicodin/Percocet as part of my daily routine. For those of you who do not know, Heroin is an Opioid, as are Vicodin/Percocet, so now, I am ultimately a Heroin addict.

Aint life grand?

 

[akuchi]

erm, no, you're not a heroin addict, you're opiate dependent, there's a massive difference.

 

[Basics]

"It all depends on the drug. If weed were legal, I would smoke it much more often than I do now (which is very rarely), Marijuana is not bad as itself, but it is a gateway drug"
The "gateway drug" theory is one so hotly contested that it's not even worth bringing up. Your anecdotal rhetoric aside, there's no scientific proof that marijuana does or does not serve as a gateway drug. I could pull up hundreds of studies, all pointing to different conclusions, but really, why bother? Just leave that shit out of here.

Just for example: One of my friends has been smoking weed for 8 years, is now 24 and hasn't touched any other drugs; not even tobacco. Now I have your meaningless anecdote vs. my meaningless anecdote.

Just because you happened to smoke weed, and you happened to start popping pills doesn't mean that weed is a gateway drug. I'm 100% sure that in 5 years, I'll still be smoking weed, and that I will still not be into any "harder" drugs (I mean, aside from the occasional mushroom/salvia trip, neither of which are really "harder" drugs than weed). It all comes down to personality, really.

 

[Bioshock]

Hey opiate addicts are known to be cool. Just look at House. He pops Vicaden every second and he goes on living just fine.

 

[Moveset Master]

I can stand to be around Potheads and Smokers, but the rest of the druggies I don't like to be around. They tend to be a bit looney.

 

[Oprah]

I believe Drugs are a temporary way to distract oneself from their own reality.

If we watch TV/Listen to a song/etc. we are only fooling ourselves into thinking are problems have vanished, we need to focus on ourselves and not just listen to something that "makes us feel better", because people who go back to what "temporarily makes them feel better" become addicts, and they only make their problems worse instead of facing their original problem.

If you are doing drugs, ask yourself, "Why do I use a substance (even if it doesn't do any harm) at all? Is there something I am unable to do by myself without this drug? Can I simply do what I plan on doing without the use or "assistance" of something other than myself?"

Always be aware that whenever you are doing something that is taking away focus from your personal life: Video Games, Watching TV, etc. you are avoiding doing things actively in your own personal life.

When its "Game Over", What in the end has the game given you? Have you gotten any further in life because of the game?

And most importantly: Did you give up and lose time in your life, that you will not get back?

 

[Least100Seraphs]

Firstly, cannabis is not 'legal' the way so many seem to imagine it to be in the Netherlands. It's as illegal as it is in most other places - there are statutes in place, posession and production are crimes even if only for personal use. The difference is that the government's attitude on drug use is more of a health matter than a criminal matter - and as such, they advise prosecutors to simply not bother prosecuting most offenders.

Secondly, be aware that there most certainly are benefits to certain alcoholic beverages. If you ask your GP (your local doctor) he'll most likely tell you that a glass of red wine with dinner every night is better for you than not having one.

 

[rayquaza69]

I'm with this guy...i think
http://youtube.com/watch?v=0xqIyJA4I-8

 

[Goodbar]

With drugs you're always taking a risk, and you can say "I smoke weed and have never smoked anything else" but its not like that for everyone. And i think it's rather pointless to take the risk when the benefit is a temporary physical pleasure. Pretty much anything beyond that is...meh, and you are putting yourself and others at risk just like overdrinking. And I do think there should be more limitations on alcohol for that reason. I know of a couple people that were killed in alcohol-related accidents, one of which was the victim of a drunk driver.