CAP 11 CAP 11 - Secondary Typing Discussion

[Innocent Criminal]

Fighting/Dark bring only a crippling Fighting weakness defensively and would only help offensively against Gengar, Rotom and Starmie, and if we make it a physical Pursuiter then Togekiss' nasty passing would be useless. One of the points of choosing Fighting was to let Togekiss replace Aura Sphere with Shadow Ball, so Dark isn't that useful offensively. Also, Fighting/Dark is only resisted by Toxicroak

Fighting/Rock is in the same boat, but even worse defensively (with both Fighting, Water and Grass to be nailed by Starmie, Zapdos and bulky waters that Togekiss can beat one-on-one but not switch into... Steel weakness is obviously bad for a Togekiss partner). Offensively, it only helps against Zapdos . Also, Fighting/Rock is only Resisted by Gallade and Medicham.

Let's see Fighting/Ice, then... Defensively, it combines Dark and Rocks disadvantadges, and adds to them Fire Weakness (Nape says hi) and loses Rock resistance. Offensively, it only helps against Zapdos. Also, Fighting/Ice is only resisted by Moltres.

Fighting + Pretty-much-anything gives near-perfect coverage, so, why exactly would Dragon be broken and not Dark or Rock ? We are making this CAP, and we can give it the stats we want. If we make it slow, bulky, with crappy Atk and only decent SpA, it won't sweep anything. Outrage would be obviously useless, and Draco Meteor only works with Hit and Run or mixed sets, what my example can't do. However, it can still greatly support Togekiss, using its bulk and resistances to support it, and become an offensive threat with paralysis support (Aura Sphere + Dragon Pulse) or nasty passing (Vacuum Wave + Dragon Pulse).

Dragon does bring an Ice weakness, but if it's such a big deal, we can just give it Thick Fat, problem solved.

Just look at Kingdra : its typing is better both offensively and defensively, and it can even use both its Atk and SpA and Outrage and Draco Meteor, but it's still far from being broken. Don't tell me Close Combat > Waterfall, because CAP11 is likely to be specially offensive (to use Togekiss' NP) and Surf + Hydro Pump >>> Aura Sphere + Focus Blast.


EDIT : I forgot Mono-Fighting, and I think its a viable option : as Fighting's better special move only has 80BP, STAB would only matter on a mixed set (to beat special walls), so we could compensate its poor special STAB by a higher SpA, letting it use stronger coverage moves without making it broken.

 

[dxiyczk]

Mono fighting is mono-electric without a bullet punch resistance, and less of an incentive for an opponent to use EQ. It also opens up the door for strong stab thunderbolts from rotom. Inferior to fighting/electric in every way.

EDIT: Yes, EdgeQuake is common because of its fantastic coverage. So as long as Togekiss is being used, it doesn't matter what type CaP11 is unless it gets levitate (or is flying, lol), this combo will be a problem. Unless you're in the fighting/grass camp which I think is pretty clear that it's inferior.

 

[capefeather]

To the people wanting Electric: EdgeQuake is a pretty common combo. Consider that when pushing Electric.

 

[Colonel Darren]

I lean more toward Fighting/Dark. If it garners a decent amount of Special Defense, it could come in and immediately threaten Rotom A with a nice STAB and get a neutral hit on Zapdos, the two Poke that this CAP should be focused on neutralizing.

I'm not much for making a typing that is resistant to everything Togekiss is weak to. I don't care much for the Fighting weakness either. There's four other teammates you can pick from when designing a team to solve that, Cap 11 should be mostly devoted toward stopping Kiss's counters and supporting her, perhaps vice versa.

Also, I would think that Dark/Fighting would allow an excellent choice of Physical or Special STAB as well, since both have a respectable move in Dark Pulse/Aura Sphere and Close Combat/Crunch. But if we make the Cap 11 Poke special based, it can use the boosts of Nasty Plot from Kiss to shoot down Zapdos and Rotom on a retaliation strike, so long as it's bulky to take a Thunderbolt or two.

 

[Griffin Rich]

That's true, but maybe it should be put another way: "The Electric secondary typing gives a resistance to electric type moves!" That's better.

Boom. Back in the primary typing I said I would stand behind Fighting/Electric the entire way. Granted, the discussion that's been going on has swayed me to a different side every once and awhile, I believe it is going to be the most preferable option.
When I think "synergy" I think of two things that feed off of each other in some way, ultimately hoping to benefit both of them. Obviously we don't want to make something that is unable to function without Togekiss, but I believe Fighting/Electric is a good combo in it's own right.

Resistant to: (and possibly better w/ motor drive or volt absorb) Electric
Bug
(Stealth) Rock
Dark
Steel

Weak to: Ground
Psychic

That's it. The ground weakness is honestly an advantage for reasons that have been discussed already, leaving it weak to psychic, and that's all. CAP11's main typing was a blessing for Kiss, as it no longer would have to carry Aura Sphere. Everyone has their panties in a wad about Rotom-A and Zapdos. The only thing suggested as an absolute counter to Rotom-A would be Fighting/Dark. This leaves us grossly fighting weak, and does nothing but stare at the bulky waters as it gets beaten down or out stalled. Meanwhile, there's the fallacy that Dark STAB would be better than an Electric STAB against Zapdos. Where was I whenever Zapdos gained a resistance or weakness to one or the other? Lets all stop pretending there is more than one justification to Dark.
The stark realization that we all have to accept is that there isn't a sure fire way to counter Rotom-A, Zapdos, and all the other threats such as bulky waters.
A Fighting/Electric type CAP11 would leave the door open to gain boosts from switching into electric moves, give Kiss free switch ins from EQ and others, as well as have the potential to find it's own ways to take out Zapdos and the like, whether it be from spreading status, to anything else.
Let me also just point out that Zapdos/Rotom-A won't be able to dent a somewhat bulky fighting/electric anyway. The ability to have some kind of tricks for them, have great typing overall, and actually be stand alone good CAP all clearly outweigh the fact that it may not be an absolute counter to everyone of Kiss' weaknesses. Remember, having an absolute counter to everything just isn't possible, vote electric to have more than just a utility CAP.

 

[firecape]

Fighting/Dark bring only a crippling Fighting weakness defensively and would only help offensively against Gengar, Rotom and Starmie, and if we make it a physical Pursuiter then Togekiss' nasty passing would be useless. Also, Fighting/Dark is only resisted by Toxicroak (and Heracross)

Fighting/Rock is in the same boat, but even worse defensively (with both Fighting, Water and Grass to be nailed by Starmie, Zapdos and bulky waters that Togekiss can beat one-on-one but not switch into... Steel weakness is obviously bad for a Togekiss partner). Offensively, it only helps against Zapdos . Also, Fighting/Rock is only Resisted by Gallade and Medicham. (And Claydol, Nidoqueen, Nidoking, Toxicroak...)

Let's see Fighting/Ice, then... Defensively, it combines Dark and Rocks disadvantadges, and adds to them Fire Weakness (Nape says hi) and loses Rock resistance. Offensively, it only helps against Zapdos. Also, Fighting/Ice is only resisted by Moltres. (it isn't resisted by Moltress, but its resisted by Starmie, Slowbro/King,and Tentacruel)

Fighting + Pretty-much-anything gives near-perfect coverage, so, why exactly would Dragon be broken and not Dark or Rock ? We are making this CAP, and we can give it the stats we want. If we make it slow, bulky, with crappy Atk and only decent SpA, it won't sweep anything. Outrage would be obviously useless, and Draco Meteor only works with Hit and Run or mixed sets, what my example can't do. However, it can still greatly support Togekiss, using its bulk and resistances to support it, and become an offensive threat with paralysis support (Aura Sphere + Dragon Pulse) or nasty passing (Vacuum Wave + Dragon Pulse).

So ya you kinda forgot some Pokemon so all of this is pretty much false, and how the hell will it support Togekiss by taking out its counters if it has terrible attack/SPA? Togekiss doesn't need to support something it needs something to support it, without the whole OU tier getting help too!

Dragon does bring an Ice weakness, but if it's such a big deal, we can just give it Thick Fat, problem solved. (Poll jump....)

Just look at Kingdra : its typing is better both offensively and defensively, and it can even use both its Atk and SpA and Outrage and Draco Meteor, but it's still far from being broken. Don't tell me Close Combat > Waterfall, because CAP11 is likely to be specially offensive (to use Togekiss' NP) and Surf + Hydro Pump >>> Aura Sphere + Focus Blast.

Ok, the reason Kingdra sucks for the most part is Water Stab is cool and all, and then a bulky water comes in and your fucked, and have to lock yourself into Outrage, then a steel comes in. Purely special will be a shit ton more broken then physical because Draco Meteor> Outrage. Also, don't just say Blissey because even if it is specially based it will have physical moves which it can use with STAB to wreck Blissey (Hell Focus Punch Gengar is viable because of Blissey).

EDIT : I forgot Mono-Fighting, and I think its a viable option : as Fighting's better special move only has 80BP, STAB would only matter on a mixed set (to beat special walls), so we could compensate its poor special STAB by a higher SpA, letting it use stronger coverage moves without making it broken.

NO.

 

[NARFNra]

A Fighting/Electric type CAP11 would leave the door open to gain boosts from switching into electric moves, give Kiss free switch ins from EQ and others, as well as have the potential to find it's own ways to take out Zapdos and the like, whether it be from spreading status, to anything else.
Let me also just point out that Zapdos/Rotom-A won't be able to dent a somewhat bulky fighting/electric anyway. The ability to have some kind of tricks for them, have great typing overall, and actually be stand alone good CAP all clearly outweigh the fact that it may not be an absolute counter to everyone of Kiss' weaknesses. Remember, having an absolute counter to everything just isn't possible, vote electric to have more than just a utility CAP.

Well, the thing is it doesn't actually have to be electric type to have Volt Absorb or Motor Drive. Saying they can't hit you is like saying you can't hit them, if you're a neutral opponent with good defenses, and so are they, then saying you can beat them would suggest you can hit them with neutrals, but last time I checked Rotom and Zapdos do well offensively.

Also, the better a CAP does standalone, the more it's failed our concept. If it does too well, then people will ignore Togekiss for it.

EDIT: Yo, firecape, italicize your comments on his post if you're going to quote it and list the pokemon he forgot.(e.g., please add Italics so I can tell what you said apart from what he did)

 

[capefeather]

I do not believe that merely mentioning Thick Fat is poll-jumping. It's an option that's there if the shared Ice weakness is so terrible.

 

[HD]

BITCHES HERE COME THE CALCS

Standard Wish Support Vaporeon (0 SpAtt EVs, Bold Nature) Ice Beam VS NP Togekiss (252 HP / 0 SpDef, Modest Nature):
35.3% - 41.7%

MixPert Lead Swampert (0 SpAtt EVs, Relaxed Nature) Ice Beam VS NP Togekiss (252 HP / 0 SpDef, Modest Nature):
28.3% - 33.7%

CroCune Suicune (0 SpAtt EVs, Bold Nature) Ice Beam VS NP Togekiss (252 HP / 0 SpDef, Modest Nature):
29.9% - 35.3%

Offensive Suicune (252 SpAtt EVs, Timid Nature) Ice Beam VS NP Togekiss (252 HP / 0 SpDef, Modest Nature):
49.7% - 58.8%

Toxic Spiker Tentacruel (0 SpAtt EVs, Calm Nature) Ice Beam VS NP Togekiss (252 HP / 0 SpDef, Modest Nature):
27.3% - 32.1%

For all of you that support the idea that Togekiss has trouble with Bulky Waters, I'm here to prove you wrong. None of the Bulky Waters even dent the Standard Togekiss, other than Offensive Suicune, whose damage can be roosted off. O yeah, this proves Electric and Grass subtypes are not needed due to the fact that Togekiss has nothing to fear from Bulky Waters, and those two subtypes do nothing to help against the major threats: Rotom-A and Zapdos.

 

[Master of the Six Kings]

While Electric was the first type i thought of to go with this, I realize now why that was. Simply due to the fact that I don't understand what exactly Togekiss really does. What does it bring to the table in an offensive core that its partner is supposed to feed off of?

The Nasty Plot set isn't going to ever want to switch out with its partner and lose its +2 bonus. It requires a rather specific team with pokemon like Magnezone and ScarfTar to carefully eliminate threatening Steels and Ghosts, but also a way to deal with phazers and the ability to actually get off a Nasty Plot without being faling to Sandstorm/SR residual damage and whatever stab attack the opposing pokemon has. If its resistances weren't limited to Bug and Grass that might not even be so bad, thoguh Ghost and Ground immunities are nice.

The most common Togekiss thought of course is the classic Flinchkiss. Jirachi does this nicely as well, but Togekiss provides the Special side of the Flinch spectrum. So how should a partner support this set? I'm not an expert, but things I see that this set would like to do:

1. Touch Bronzong/Blissey/Zapdos/Rotom-A/Jolteon/Dragonite
Hitting Blissey/Zapdos/Rotom/Nite on a switch with Thunder Wave is really all Kiss can even hope to have accomplished against these threats. Likely it will have done nothing worth mentioning. Its partner needs to be able to switch in and deal with these Pokemon. Doing so is no easy feat as with the exception of Jolteon, Spike support does nothing so forcing constant switches won't even give much residual assitance, while the SR damage that is done will be Roosted off when Togekiss retakes the field and is unable to do anythign to the threat. Perhaps a Pokemon that can actually make use of Gravity would work here, which would allow Earthquake to deal with Zapdos/Bronzong/Rotom, though costs Togekiss a very useful immunity when its up. Having Pursuit would be very nice for Blissey and Rotom, and great in general if you can hit Dnite or Zapdos with Thunder Wave before going to 11.

2. Deal with Stealth Rocks
Togekiss can leave its friends beind if they don't Spin, because having to switch at all in order to allow its partner to deal with a threat will cost Kiss 25% of its health if Rock remain up. If this is Kiss' true mate then it'll need to be able to ahndle it. This also brings Dark up as a good typing choice, allowing it to dispatch ghosts that try adn Spin block with STAB Dark attacks.

3. Deal with Thunder Wave/Toxic, or at least their common users
If by type or ability the partner Pokemon can't handle these attacks, it needs to at least be able to deal effectively with their users if lum berry is assumed as an item. This means access to Taunt/Heal Bell, without. any glarring weakness to a common user. Blissey, Togekiss, Jirachi, Celebi, Dragonite being some of the more common. Powerful fighting Stab with ice Punch access should in its own clear that up with Celebi not dancing over to Togekiss as is.

Dark, Steel and Ground all show merit in most regards, with Ground being best used only if Gravity or something like it, is applied which I realize is more move set so i'll ignore from here on.

What else can Kiss brign to the table? Being a semi bulky Special attacker with poor offensive typing, not enough resistances to stay afloat, dissapointing speed and neither half of BoltBeam hurts. With Flamethrower, Aura Sphere, Shadow Ball, Air Slash and Grass Knot it can try for all out offensive sets, but overall misses out without solid speed/answers to threats like Blissey/Zapdos. Past a Scarf set, I don't see that as in anyway viable.

But where its movepool lacks in outright type coverage, it gets some exceptional support based moves. Encore, Thunder Wave, Wish, Baton pass, Charm, Psycho Shift, Tail Wind, Role play, Heal Bell, Trick, Dual Screens and Safeguard. Some of these like Safe Guard, Heal Bell, Charm, Tail Wind and Psycho Shift solve problems Togekiss has on its own without a partner needed, while obviously being outclassed on most sets Kiss currently runs.

So really, to create an offesnive core, i'm still unsure of whats needed in its partner. Rapid Spin and Pursuit are good options, while I can see Gravity putting extensive pressure on Zapdos/Rotom and Dragonite. Togekiss just seems like a pokemon that can't function correctly with only 4 move slots, so its partner needs to be able to give it a hand. I just don't see much potential in Kiss when Air Slash/Aura Sphere is the obivous option, but still leaves a lot of Pokemon shrugging it off and coming back for more. Maybe instead of tryign to make a perfect partner for Kiss, we really need to make a Pokemon that Togekiss perfectly partners?

 

[Innocent Criminal]

So ya you kinda forgot some Pokemon so all of this is pretty much false

Oops, i wrote that too fast, but Fighting/Rock still isn't resisted by any OU pokemon, and Fighting/dark by only one relevant pokemon. Fighting/Ice only by Two OU and 1 UU. Point still valid.

and how the hell will it support Togekiss by taking out its counters if it has terrible attack/SPA?

I said "decent" SpA, not terrible. It shouldn't have too much trouble with them considering it resists their STAB but not the other way around. Rotom and Gengar can still use Shadow Ball, but then again, the point of Fighting is to let Togekiss run Shadow Ball instead of Aura Sphere.

Togekiss doesn't need to support something it needs something to support it, without the whole OU tier getting help too!

That's not what we agreed on Concept Assessment. Togekiss has great supportive capabilities (paralysis spreading, Wish passing, Cleric and unique Nasty Plot passing) which shouldn't go to waste. Everyone is focusing on supporting Togekiss but I think the other way around should be at least as important, and it's also definitely easier. A Fighting/Dragon tank with poor speed and only decent SpA would love paralysis, wish support or nasty passing.

Ok, the reason Kingdra sucks for the most part is Water Stab is cool and all, and then a bulky water comes in and your fucked, and have to lock yourself into Outrage, then a steel comes in.

Kingdra has equal SpA and Atk, and often run mixed sets with Draco Meteor.

Purely special will be a shit ton more broken then physical because Draco Meteor> Outrage.

So, you interpret my "decent SpA" as "terrible" in the first half my post but then as "higher than Kingdra's" in the second half ? Kingdra has 95 SpA, which is pretty much what I would call decent. I also explained why CAP11 wouldn't be a good Draco Meteor user.

 

[Griffin Rich]

Well, the thing is it doesn't actually have to be electric type to have Volt Absorb or Motor Drive. Saying they can't hit you is like saying you can't hit them, if you're a neutral opponent with good defenses, and so are they, then saying you can beat them would suggest you can hit them with neutrals, but last time I checked Rotom and Zapdos do well offensively.

Also, the better a CAP does standalone, the more it's failed our concept. If it does too well, then people will ignore Togekiss for it.

I get the fact that electric type isn't a prerequisite to the two abilities... But that just doesn't seem right. What justification would you give to giving a Fighting/Dark volt absorb or motor drive? It almost seems broken, and makes it seem ok to slap abilities that don't mesh onto anything. How would everything change if Gyarados had either of them, or if... Magnezone had levitate without have to use magnet rise or something?
I also get what you're trying to say about the Zapdos/Rotom debate, but none of this can really be discussed in detail because we don't know if we're making CAP11 more on the bulky side or not. All I'm saying is, the typing would allow CAP11 to take anything they dish out for neutral (if not resisted) damage. Who knows? We would have something to outstall, or be even better than those two offensively.

And finally, I guess I wasn't articulating my point well enough. Electric would allow CAP11 to synergize with Kiss the best, or as well as you can with a Normal/Flying type... Gaining some electric boosts, drawing some eqs, resisting SR still, possibly spreading paralysis to free up another potential move slot in Kiss's pool and making it even more annoying as a flinch haxer.

 

[firecape]

Ok your first post contradicted itself, you say give it crappy Special attack and then later on you say you think it will be primarily special, don't blame me for adressing all the points in your post, even the conflicting ones.

You misunderstand the point of this cap so I will tell you:

Name: Perfect Mate

General Description: Pick a good-but-not-great OU pokemon, and design the perfect teammate for it, similar to the way Celebi & Heatran, or Blissey & Skarmory complement each other so well on competitive teams.

So in other words they need to support each other, not one be a third wheel (Togekiss) in the back while the CAP rapes the entire tier with Dragon/Fighting.

The thing about your entire arguement being valid because fighting + ____ hits most things is wrong because its not that it can hit neutral. Its that Dragon can hit all but one type for a neutral 140 BASE POWER attack, and then have an attack that hits the other types SE.

 

[dxiyczk]

BITCHES HERE COME THE CALCS

Standard Wish Support Vaporeon (0 SpAtt EVs, Bold Nature) Ice Beam VS NP Togekiss (252 HP / 0 SpDef, Modest Nature):
35.3% - 41.7%

toxic

MixPert Lead Swampert (0 SpAtt EVs, Relaxed Nature) Ice Beam VS NP Togekiss (252 HP / 0 SpDef, Modest Nature):
28.3% - 33.7%

kiss is not very threatened by lead swampert, but boosting sets (curse) can potentially cause problems. swampert is the exception to the bulky water rule because he is ground typed, so the people saying kiss can't handle bulky waters aren't proposing a swampert counter. mostly because, yes, kiss can deal with this one.

CroCune Suicune (0 SpAtt EVs, Bold Nature) Ice Beam VS NP Togekiss (252 HP / 0 SpDef, Modest Nature):
29.9% - 35.3%

can set up, and probably has as kiss is switching in. can outstall with rest and sleeptalk depending on flinch chance

Offensive Suicune (252 SpAtt EVs, Timid Nature) Ice Beam VS NP Togekiss (252 HP / 0 SpDef, Modest Nature):
49.7% - 58.8%

this cannot be roosted off

Toxic Spiker Tentacruel (0 SpAtt EVs, Calm Nature) Ice Beam VS NP Togekiss (252 HP / 0 SpDef, Modest Nature):
27.3% - 32.1%

the point of tentacruel is to support, and is not much feared offensively. anything takes negligible damage from it

For all of you that support the idea that Togekiss has trouble with Bulky Waters, I'm here to prove you wrong. None of the Bulky Waters even dent the Standard Togekiss, other than Offensive Suicune, who's damage can be roosted off.

so yes, bulky waters (meaning vappy and suicune) do indeed cause problems.

EDIT: HD- offensive suicune can use that roosting turn to set up. Also, considering SR, these numbers add up very quickly.

house- sorry for the syntax issue. replace bulky waters with suicune and vaporeon. also, a core suggests some sort of defensive synergy, even if they are mainly offensive pokemon. otherwise, a 'core' would be any two offensive pokemon. jirachi/salamence is a good example of an offensive core (depending on their movesets i suppose), and they both have defensive synergy.

EDIT2: cape- yes, two pokemon can have good offensive synergy without having anything else in common. however, a core requires defensive synergy as well. a core suggest that these pokemon are the center of your team that you fall back on, and if both pokemon fall to the same moves, it's a huge detriment. ttar+luc may work on the same team because they are versatile with stats and typing to back them up. we're dealing with half our core being a mostly defensive, supporting normal/flying type, which is part of the problem.

 

[Chateau]

I've yet to form an opinion on what the secondary type should be, but I'm sure it should not be Dark. One very important disadvantage is the fighting weakness. Without a huge amount of Defense/HP, neither CAP11 not Togekiss would be able to switch into any Fighting type in OU. That's 5 Pokemon right there that can prevent you from initiating the KissCAP11 combo.

Also, Fighting as a primary type helps Togekiss, but Togekiss does not help FightingCAP11. We need a type that has serious flaws that are made up for by Togekiss. Dark as a secondary type doesn't attract any counters that Togekiss can handle. (Correct me if I'm missing something.

CAP11 needs a characteristic that makes it less compatible with Gyarados. Almost a detriment. I'm not saying this characteristic has to be the typing, but secondary Dark flawlessly counters Celebi. It also counters Rotom and Starmie, so at the cost of taking care of two Kiss counters, we make an enemy to one of Gyarados' biggest counters.

The idea of avoiding a Gyarados partner also discourages Electric and Ground.

 

[HD]

@dxiyczk:

Vaporeon: Your first point is somewhat valid, however Vaporeon takes 27.7% - 32.8% from Air Slash (with the potential to be doubled by Nasty Plot), and Air Slash's chance for you to be flinched is 60%.

Crocune: While you're right about it being able to set up, you're forgetting that NP Togekiss can ALSO set up, and much faster than CroCune I might add.

Offensive Suicune: It can be Roosted off because Roost takes off the Flying-type for one turn, causing Ice Beam to be neutral.

Tentacruel: Fair enough, however all bulky waters, with the exception of Suicune, is to support.

 

[HouseFantastic]

the point of tentacruel is to support, and is not much feared offensively. anything takes negligible damage from it

As HD said, all bulky waters are support-ish types, and that's the entire point. Togekiss doesn't take that much damage from bulky waters who aren't very strong, and are not even abusing STAB with their ice beam. Because of this, we can focus on making CAP11 contribute more offensively, rather than worrying about resisting bulky waters which would head us further in the direction of making CAP11/Togekiss an offensive core.

 

[Innocent Criminal]

Ok your first post contradicted itself, you say give it crappy Special attack and then later on you say you think it will be primarily special, don't blame me for adressing all the points in your post, even the conflicting ones.

I'm just gonna quote myself :

If we make it slow, bulky, with crappy Atk and only decent SpA, it won't sweep anything.

--------------------------------

You misunderstand the point of this cap so I will tell you:

So in other words they need to support each other, not one be a third wheel (Togekiss) in the back while the CAP rapes the entire tier with Dragon/Fighting.

Just read what follows my previous quote :

If we make it slow, bulky, with crappy Atk and only decent SpA, it won't sweep anything. Outrage would be obviously useless, and Draco Meteor only works with Hit and Run or mixed sets, what my example can't do. However, it can still greatly support Togekiss, using its bulk and resistances to support it, and become an offensive threat with paralysis support (Aura Sphere + Dragon Pulse) or nasty passing (Vacuum Wave + Dragon Pulse).

Please, let's keep this discussion healthy and constructive.

-------------------------------

The thing about your entire arguement being valid because fighting + ____ hits most things is wrong because its not that it can hit neutral. Its that Dragon can hit all but one type for a neutral 140 BASE POWER attack, and then have an attack that hits the other types SE.

Again, quoting myself :

Outrage would be obviously useless, and Draco Meteor only works with Hit and Run or mixed sets, what my example can't do.

If Draco Meteor would be a problem, this is CAP, we can arbitrarily decide that it doesn't learn it, can't we ?

 

[Nopie]

The thing about your entire arguement being valid because fighting + ____ hits most things is wrong because its not that it can hit neutral. Its that Dragon can hit all but one type for a neutral 140 BASE POWER attack, and then have an attack that hits the other types SE.

Then don't give it Draco Meteor. Problem solved?

 

[firecape]

No if it is a Dragon type it has to learn Draco Meteor because its a move tutor move, and she teaches it to every Dragon type. If we give it "decent" SPA (ok your original post is major poll jumping because we aren't really supposed to discuss stats) then it can hit and run with Draco Meteor, aided by the fact it has an SR resistance. Dragon typing is an awsome offensive type no matter how you slice it, meaning it wont need Togekiss to break through teams with Draco Meteor/ CC/ Aura SPhere.

 

[capefeather]

house- sorry for the syntax issue. replace bulky waters with suicune and vaporeon. also, a core suggests some sort of defensive synergy, even if they are mainly offensive pokemon. otherwise, a 'core' would be any two offensive pokemon. jirachi/salamence is a good example of an offensive core (depending on their movesets i suppose), and they both have defensive synergy.

There are several counterexamples to this. Tyranitar+Lucario is one, and some others were said ITT. Hell, you can have great offensive synergy with two very similar Pokémon.

Also people please address Kingdra and Cyclohm before saying Dragon is automatically broken.

 

[NARFNra]

Then don't give it Draco Meteor. Problem solved?

http://www.smogon.com/cap/process/events/movepool_submissions
Ahem. Dragon types are required to learn those two moves.

I don't really care anymore about the Dragon/Fighting typing. It's basically our only option left other than Electric.

 

[Nopie]

No if it is a Dragon type it has to learn Draco Meteor because its a move tutor move, and she teaches it to every Dragon type. If we give it "decent" SPA (ok your original post is major poll jumping because we aren't really supposed to discuss stats) then it can hit and run with Draco Meteor, aided by the fact it has an SR resistance. Dragon typing is an awsome offensive type no matter how you slice it, meaning it wont need Togekiss to break through teams with Draco Meteor/ CC/ Aura SPhere.

No, this is CAP, we don't have to give it anything we don't want to.

What you're saying is that if it's a Dragon, then it has to be broken. This is incorrect. We know that Dragon is an amazing offensive type, and we will have to deal with that fact accordingly.

If Dragon Claw/Dragon Pulse was the best it can muster, would it still seem as broken to you?

Also people please address Kingdra and Cyclohm before saying Dragon is automatically broken.

Don't forget Altaria.

http://www.smogon.com/cap/process/events/movepool_submissions
Ahem. Dragon types are required to learn those two moves.

Perhaps that needs revising, then?

 

[Chateau]

No if it is a Dragon type it has to learn Draco Meteor because its a move tutor move, and she teaches it to every Dragon type.

We don't HAVE to give it anything. If Draco Meteor didn't build toward the concept (it doesn't, by any means), then it wouldn't get it. If our concept required us to make a Flying/Fire type with no STAB moves, and Surf, then that's what would happen.

Either way it's a moot point as I've yet to hear an advantage of pairing Togekiss with Fighting/Dragon that isn't a variant of "Dragons can pwn everthing, but only the stuff we want it to" It has BAD synergy in being weak to Ice and not making up for it with. . . anything. Besides, y'know, neutral coverage on everything, which is totally irrelevant to being Kiss' perfect mate.

 

[firecape]

No, this is CAP, we don't have to give it anything we don't want to.

What you're saying is that if it's a Dragon, then it has to be broken. This is incorrect. We know that Dragon is an amazing offensive type, and we will have to deal with that fact accordingly.

If Dragon Claw/Dragon Pulse was the best it can muster, would it still seem as broken to you?

OK please lurk more. It is required for a Dragon type to learn Draco Meteor by the CAP rules.