CAP 11 CAP 11 - Secondary Typing Discussion

[firecape]

Ok people going for Fighting/Dragon stop. Fighting and Dragon is worse then Dragon/Ground on the broken scale. Im pretty sure no one wants this to be the CAP that failed so please stop suggesting this. If it became part Dragon, Dragon/Fighting is only resisted by Kitsunoh, so why the hell do you need Togekiss when it would destroy everything by itself?

 

[GraffnTrix]

Electric just attracts Ground, which is what we have a Togekiss for. Does it do anything else? Not really.

Dark and Steel attract Fighting, and we don't need both CAP and Togekiss to share a weakness.

Psychic laughs at this, and though it is weak to Ghost, we switch our lovable flying white blob into any Shadow Balls.

That is why I vote for Psychic.

 

[jumpluff]

Sigh, lost my post. Anyways, after contemplating it a bit and reading through the thread, I've decided to back Rising_Dusk with Dark-type. The problem with a lot of suggestions here is that they're defensively minded, which contradicts what we decided in Concept Assessment -- that, for this to work, it needs to be an offensive core, just like Dusk said. This is why STAB is paramount to success. We can patch up defensive issues with moves, abilities, and stats. It's key, however, that we have a good STAB, because STAB is often what pushes a Pokémon past OU's defensive behemoths. Zapdos and Rotom-A, I think we agree, are the biggest problems. They also plague Fighting-types. A Dark-type STAB would help here. A STAB Pursuit, should we go the physical route, would keep Rotom-A down. Dark also hits most walls (that Togekiss can't get past easily) neutrally. (For those worried that the offensive potency of this type combination would make the synergistic relationship between the two imbalanced, we don't have to make it so it can sweep by itself.)

Rock is okay, too. It's more dependent on Togekiss, which is a good thing, but it suffices, hitting Rotom and Zapdos hard. Rising_Dusk illustrated why it's inferior, though.

 

[Bughouse]

Psychic laughs at this, and though it is weak to Ghost, we switch our lovable flying white blob into any Shadow Balls.

That is why I vote for Psychic.

And once you have switched into a Gengar or Rotom form that isn't choiced, what are you going to do to it? Togekiss can't touch them. CAP 11 can't just switch out of Ghosts, it has to be able to at least dent them, preferably check them or hard counter them.

 

[Innocent Criminal]

Ok people going for Fighting/Dragon stop. Fighting and Dragon is worse then Dragon/Ground on the broken scale. Im pretty sure no one wants this to be the CAP that failed so please stop suggesting this. If it became part Dragon, Dragon/Fighting is only resisted by Kitsunoh, so why the hell do you need Togekiss when it would destroy everything by itself?

Water/Dragon is even more broken, with virtually no weakness, plenty of resistances and perfect STAB coverage, resisted by only one pokemon. Would you say that Kingdra is broken ? Definitely not.

We could give it low Speed, unusable Atk and only decent SpA and it wo'nt sweep anything. I would still have its useful resistances, we could still give it every option to support Toegkiss and it would love paralysis support and nasty passing to actually hurt something with its great STABs.

Psychic laughs at this, and though it is weak to Ghost, we switch our lovable flying white blob into any Shadow Balls.

Before saying that, have you actually used Togekiss ? Have you actually tried switching it into Shadow Ball, only to realize it can't do anything against the only users of this move : Rotom-A, Gengar and Jolteon.

 

[firecape]

Water/Dragon is even more broken, with virtually no weakness, plenty of resistances and perfect STAB coverage, resisted by only one pokemon. Would you say that Kingdra is broken ? Definitely not.

We could give it low Speed, unusable Atk and only decent SpA and it wo'nt sweep anything. I would still have its useful resistances, we could still give it every option to support Toegkiss and it would love paralysis support and nasty passing to actually hurt something with its great STABs.

But Waterfall is a relatively weak move even with STAB, it has the same power as an unSTAB Close Combat, meaning it has a harder time beating steels. How, in any way, does Dragon typing help Togekiss.

 

[Jebus McAzn]

I'm throwing my support out for three secondary typings.

Fighting/Dark
While this does give a weakness to Fighting, this can be covered in part by our other 4 teammates. A Rotom or a Zapdos can work just as well for us, which some people seem to be forgetting. We can use those as counters to enemy Fighting types that try to switch in on CAP 11.
Pros: Unresisted type coverage (AFAIK), only one significant weakness (Fighting), stomps on Rotom and Blissey.
Cons: Weakness to one of the most common types in the game; a weakness that Togekiss isn't exactly strong against.

Fighting/Ground
An Electric resist/immunity is important, and Fighting/Ground gives it to us. While Ground didn't make the cut (I think largely because of an Ice weakness) the poll was extremely close, so I think people would be happy with a hybrid. In addition, Fighting can take out the Ice-types that try to come in on it, while things like Starmie can probably be taken out with Payback.
Pros: Electric immunity, powerful dual STAB, has few problems with Ice types
Cons: Struggles against Pokemon using non-STAB Ice Beam, cannot answer Rotom, Gengar, or Zapdos, compounds upon Kiss's Ice weakness in addition to being weak to Rotom-W and Rotom-M.

Fighting/Electric
This would act as a buffer for Electric moves. An ability like Motor Drive could turn CAP 11 into an extremely deadly sweeper, while Volt Absorb would keep it alive longer. Its only significant weakness is Ground really, and Togekiss loves that.
Pros: Ground weakness nullified by Togekiss and her Flying type, buffer for Electric moves, potential for a helpful ability
Cons: Limited dual STAB renders CAP 11 useless against Rotom and Zapdos, two of Kiss's counters. In addition, an ability like Motor Drive would help out Gyarados far more than it would Togekiss.

After all that, I'd have to vote Fighting/Dark, simply because it has the most going for it, and the fewest drawbacks.


My personal problem with Fighting/Psychic is that it makes us far too weak to Rotom (unless we can carry Crunch, but wouldn't Dark STAB be better?). Fighting/Grass still has an Ice weakness and has absolutely abysmal coverage. Fighting/Dragon has the potential to be incredibly broken. As someone else said before (can't remember who), "Give a Dragon-type the ability to hit Steels super-effectively? Great fucking idea." Paraphrased, of course.

 

[Lokon]

I,come up with a list of favourites:

FIGHTING/DRAGON
Very strong offensive typing. However is weak to ice, which is a huge draw back as arguments that ice is not one of togekiss's major worries seemed to have no effect in the main typing poll.

FIGHTING/GHOST
Personally, icant see why anyone would choose this. Ghost gives the CAP aweakness to rotom, which is the counter which, along with zapdos, everyone is talking about. This also does nothing to help the CAP take thunder hits and so it is also a poor counter for zapdos.

FIGHTING/DARK
Of all the choises, I think this has the best type coverage. It has very few weaknesses and counters rotom, which seems to be the focus of attention. Even zapdos may be taken down by a couple of dark STABS.

FIGHTING/THUNDER
Probably the best defensive synergy with togekiss, esp. if given volt absorb ability.However this typing will have major problems with rotom. Another pro is that it lures in earthquakes, which togekiss has full immunity to.

FIGHTING/PHSYCHIC
I really hate this. It covers none of togekisses offensive problems, and gets massacred by rotom. I cannot really see any pros and there is no originality here.

These are JUST my views and i am happy for any of them to be proved wrong :D!

 

[Nopie]

While I will admit that defensively those resists are almost perfect for the job, this Cap getting Fire moves like you suggested is exactly what I'm afraid of.

Perhaps, then, the solution is just that - don't give any good Fire moves to CAP11 if it is decided to be Fighting/Dragon. If we cap its Fire-type attacking potential at BP70 Hidden Power Fire, that should probably suffice, especially if it isn't given much aptitude in Special Attack.

I don't see why so many people think that Fighting/Dragon will be immensely powerful just because of its typing. I think a lot are forgetting that this is CAP, and we can make this Pokemon anything we want it to be. Typing isn't everything, and once we get further down the production line we can make sure everything stays under control as far as movepool, stats, etc. As long as we are diligent, this doesn't have to turn out to be the monstrosity that many believe it will be.

I feel like a there are a lot who refuse to consider Dragon as a secondary type solely because they are afraid that it will turn out to be too good. I, for one, think that's a right shame. If we are too scared to have a try at something that is completely within our own control, what are we doing?

Ok people going for Fighting/Dragon stop. Fighting and Dragon is worse then Dragon/Ground on the broken scale. Im pretty sure no one wants this to be the CAP that failed so please stop suggesting this. If it became part Dragon, Dragon/Fighting is only resisted by Kitsunoh, so why the hell do you need Togekiss when it would destroy everything by itself?

If it became Fighting/Dark its dual-STAB would only be resisted by Toxicroak. What's your point?

 

[GraffnTrix]

And once you have switched into a Gengar or Rotom form that isn't choiced, what are you going to do to it? Togekiss can't touch them. CAP 11 can't just switch out of Ghosts, it has to be able to at least dent them, preferably check them or hard counter them.

Though this is true, it doesn't mean CAP will be at the ghost's mercy just because it is Psychic.

 

[Bughouse]

Though this is true, it doesn't mean CAP will be at the ghost's mercy just because it is Psychic.

You were the one who said to switch out of CAP 11 into Togekiss... :/

 

[McNUTTY]

Dragon/Fighting has the least drawbacks and gives good STAB. every one that bitches on how it will be broken because of the neutral coverage + fire move, the simple solution is not to give it access to these moves! this is CAP we make the choices! looking in to movepool now is a bit to far into the future but, without access to Draco Meteor and Outrage it will be more easily handled or no fire type moves! even stat wise we could limit the STABs power! as far as im concerned this CAP is meant to be helping Togekiss and removing its weakness's/counters. it is meant to be there to support Tokekiss in what it does bets Flinching! Fighting/Electric doesnt help Tokekiss at all, Zapdos and Rotom will walk all over you!

 

[kd24]

fighting/rock is an ok typing, it still gives sr resist/rock resist but more important, boosts its spd enough in ss to help beat rotom/zapdos. the stab stone edge/close combat is basically as good as it gets and deals with blissey, zapdos, rotom (stab stone edge will really hurt), etc.

if i had to choose a secondary typing, it would be rock or dark, but in this case i think the postitives of rock is too much to ignore.

 

[The_Third_Try]

Dragon type stab doesn't add anything useful for supporting 'Kiss. Since Dragon/Fighting has perfect neutral coverage and very good SE hits in the OU Cap 11 would therefor have to have lower offensive stats so as to not become too strong for the OU. Now assuming that it had low offensive stats we would run into a problem.

There is a large amount of suport, including from the TL, for this to be an offensive pair. We cannot make this pokemon strong offensivly without giving it good offensive stats and, therefor, making it too strong.

 

[Mektar]

Dusk is right, a Fighting/Dark type is the best option we have due to its potential of working great offensively with Togekiss. I still like Ground, but that would create more of a defensive partnership. The way I see it, our only other option would be to go overboard and create a new type.

 

[NARFNra]

Fighting/Dragon depends on it's neutral coverage, correct? If so, then that means it requires good attack stats in order to do it's job at all. But if it has good attack stats, then it will very likely be used by itself. If we make it so that it HAS to be used with Togekiss, presumably due to Nasty Plot, then it might have too low Special attack to be standard OU. If we make it so it can sweep without it, a Fighting/Dragon is sure to make a dent without help from Togekiss. Even worse, Fighting/Dragon has an Ice weakness, which many have stated is a reason why Ground lost, so why ignore the Ice weakness now?

 

[firecape]

Ok im going to attempt to talk some sense into all of this "OMG DRAGON OWNZ" conversation. First of all why? How, in any way, does Dragon tailor to Togekiss. The point of this CAP is to be a "perfect mate" how the hell is it a perfect mate to specifically Togekiss when Dragon STAB rips through all of the Metagame but a sole type, which its secondary STAB handles! I don't care "Oh we can tailor it to be not broken". How!? If we have these STABs we will obviously have to give him Dragon moves (because they are TMs its a requirement!), meaning it will be broken. The main thing is, if it was tailored to Togekiss it would be an option, but it helps the myriad Pokemon that enjoy Steels/<insert type Dragon destroys> here.

 

[KingEmpoleon]

Seriously, why no love for Steel?

It has the potential to the closest thing to a synergetic mate with Togekiss. It can take in all of it's weaknesses, either resisting them or being neutral to it, then potentially striking back hard.

Dragon/Fighting = Oh dear God..no, just no. Sure, it resists Rotom-A and pals' Thunderbolt, but I see it end up not fulfilliing it's intended role.

Electric/Fighting = Basically everything Fuzznip addressed

Dark/Fighting = The only reasons I see supporting this is to hit Rotom-A SE. Not very helpful seeing how Fighting moves are common enough to trash this.

Ghost/Fighting = Rotom-A weak..Which is Togekiss' biggest counter.

Psychic/Fighting = No. Just no. Similar situation as Ghost/Fighting.

 

[NARFNra]

Ok im going to attempt to talk some sense into all of this "OMG DRAGON OWNZ" conversation. First of all why? How, in any way, does Dragon tailor to Togekiss. The point of this CAP is to be a "perfect mate" how the hell is it a perfect mate to specifically Togekiss when Dragon STAB rips through all of the Metagame but a sole type, which its secondary STAB handles! I don't care "Oh we can tailor it to be not broken". How!? If we have these STABs we will obviously have to give him Dragon moves (because they are TMs its a requirement!), meaning it will be broken. The main thing is, if it was tailored to Togekiss it would be an option, but it helps the myriad Pokemon that enjoy Steels/<insert type Dragon destroys> here.

Firecape, you're approaching this the wrong way. Instead of saying "it's broken no matter how you look at it", I suggest you say something like "In order to balance it, we'd have to give it such a weakness that it might end up unusable anyway.

You are correct, however, that giving it a Fighting/Dragon type is going to be about as useful for Togekiss as it is for, oh, Gyarados, or really anything that needs a partner to resist a Water/Grass/Electric/Fire weakness.

Seriously, why no love for Steel?

It has the potential to the closest thing to a synergetic mate with Togekiss. It can take in all of it's weaknesses, either resisting them or being neutral to it, then potentially striking back hard.

Steel/Fighting... weakness to Fighting increases the chance of Fighters breaking the group. Steel gives it no resistance to Electric, which is pretty much Togekisses most major weakness. Steel is also weak to Fire hits, which Togekiss isn't actually that good at taking in our current metagame. Add to that that Steel has redundant SE STAB with Fighting, even it's priority is the same, and you've got a meh type at best.

 

[familyguyman]

So we go Fighting...oh well, moving on...

Hell no to Electric. Wasn't a big argument against Ground: "It will be a better Gyarados partner!". So we want to make Fighting/Electric, something that resists all TWO of Gyarados weaknesses AND beats his biggest nemeses, Bulky Waters. It doesn't even stop Thunder Wave. Whoever says Electric gives that resistance the Ground supporters wanted is way off and doesn't even understand the point of absorbing Thunder Wave. I repeat, hell no to Electric.


One I want to bring back to the table is Fire. Yeah, we have Fire/Fighting but not in a bulky fashion which I imagine we'll end up with here. So why Fire? Well for one, it loses to Bulky Waters so it won't be Gyarados' homeboy which we are afraid of. Second, it's weak to Ground, something we all want and I agree with, a Ground weakness is nice, especially if we give it Glare or something to paralyze said Ground types, something Togekiss can't do very easily. Thirdly, Fire is great offensively, hitting many of Togekiss' foes hard. Fourth, it resists Scizor well, something Togekiss appreciates, but no more than, say, Heatran so it's not metagame breaking. Fifth, it resists Fire AND Ice (very good for Togekiss) and does not open up any big weaknesses like Steel and Rock do to Fighting. Rock neutrality is not a big deal, neither is Stealth Rock neutrality.

 

[NARFNra]

One I want to bring back to the table is Fire. Yeah, we have Fire/Fighting but not in a bulky fashion which I imagine we'll end up with here. So why Fire? Well for one, it loses to Bulky Waters so it won't be Gyarados' homeboy which we are afraid of. Second, it's weak to Ground, something we all want and I agree with, a Ground weakness is nice, especially if we give it Glare or something to paralyze said Ground types, something Togekiss can't do very easily. Thirdly, Fire is great offensively, hitting many of Togekiss' foes hard. Fourth, it resists Scizor well, something Togekiss appreciates, but no more than, say, Heatran so it's not metagame breaking. Fifth, it resists Fire AND Ice (very good for Togekiss) and does not open up any big weaknesses like Steel and Rock do to Fighting. Rock neutrality is not a big deal, neither is Stealth Rock neutrality.

The problem with Fire is that offensively it hits Bronzong and Scizor, and that's basically it. If I'm correct, everyone wants a type that hits counters for the secondary, but Fire removes the SR and rock resist and doesn't do much to Rotom/Zapdos.

Personally, I think there's no way to get a good typing here without exposing a horrible weakness somewhere, and that's annoying me :/.

 

[capefeather]

OK I gave this a lot of thought (more than I needed initially) and I've decided that I'll support only the following four types: Dragon, Ghost, Rock and Dark. The first three give CAP 11 perfect neutral coverage in OU with two STABs, while Dark means Heracross walls CAP 11's STABs, but that can be covered by a Flying move I guess. I think that perfect coverage is important because if we let CAP 11 get walled by something (say, Tentacruel), we risk creating a rival partnership that beats the partnership that we're trying to make. Remember, we're trying to make Togekiss's Perfect Mate, not Rotom-A's Perfect Mate or something like that. Since many of Togekiss's biggest foes are very popular, this WILL happen. So good luck convincing me to back a different type, lol.

Remember that there are ways to combat Electric and Ice moves other than the secondary type. The stat spread, especially Speed, can help against these; if CAP 11 outspeeds Zapdos, for example, it will need to take only one Thunderbolt. There are also the abilities Thick Fat and Volt Absorb (even Motor Drive if we think that it's necessary). There's also priority.

I'm kind of leaning towards Dragon because the Electric resistance will ease the pressure on future discussions to check Jolteon. However, I do understand the concerns over it possibly being overpowered. We have made a Dragon CAP before, though. We'll see what happens.

(EDIT: After hearing a lot of good arguments against Dragon, including but not limited to the recent ones from reachzero, Rock has become the frontrunner in my eyes. It would be nice to have more freedom against Dragonite, and with the sizable offenses CAP 11 will need against Zapdos, Dragon probably would be overpowered. The sandstorm boost helped to put Rock over Ghost. Now, remember that Togekiss can't control whether or not Sandstorm is up. This means that if CAP 11 benefits from Sandstorm, that can only be a good thing.)

I envision the following happening:

Togekiss switches in. The opponent switches in a counter to wall Togekiss, forcing it out. In comes CAP 11. CAP 11 has perfect-coverage STABs, so it can compel the Togekiss counter to stay in to minimize the damage done, or protect the counter to let CAP 11 wreck for a while. After that, Togekiss cleans up.

Now, of course I'm not saying that these two Pokémon should sweep the entire metagame. Every Pokémon gets worn down if it has to face more than one opponent. That's for the other four Pokémon to address.

 

[jynx KB]

I'm still a supporter of Electric, as I was in the initial typing.

Yes, it may be walled by Rotom and Zapdos, but think of it another way, what are either of them going to do in return?

Thunderbolt is going to be resisted, as is Hidden Power Ice (or Blizzard on Rotom F) Flying attacks are covered, Shadow Ball is covered, there's no Super Effective offense from either Pokemon, making the situation more of a stalemate.

Plus it gives an electric resistance, and lures Ground attacks.

Plus, I think what's being missed is the versatility of a Fighting-Type when we finally get around to movepools.

Thinking ahead, Fighters usually get Payback to deal with Rotom, and Ice Punch and Stone Edge for Zapdos.

There are some perfectly fine reasons for an Electric secondary type.

Keep in mind that any type we come up with is either going to have a flaw in the partnership (as is natural, no strategy is perfect) or break the Pokemon in a way that it functions too well on its own, which I think would be far worse decision.

Edit: After double checking the typing, Fighting doesn't resist Ice My mistake. In that regard, I'm kind of warming up to Mono Fighting myself

 

[The_Third_Try]

What about Mono Fighting? It shares no weaknesses with 'Kiss and, while it is not an ideal STAB to stop all of 'Kiss' counters, it can at least stop some of them. If we chose something like this we would stop Zapdos and Rotom with unSTABed Rock, Ghost, Dark, or Ice moves, but, since all those types give weaknesses that people want to avoid, I think it would be worth it.

Edit: I'm not specifically suporting Mono Fighting. I'm just saying that since coverage is not limited to STAB, we don't need to give CAP 11 a great offensive type. We don't even need to use the second STAB if we use a horrible offensive typing like Poison or Steel.

 

[NARFNra]

I'm still a supporter of Electric, as I was in the initial typing.

Yes, it may be walled by Rotom and Zapdos, but think of it another way, what are either of them going to do in return?

Thunderbolt is going to be resisted, as is Hidden Power Ice (or Blizzard on Rotom F) Flying attacks are covered, Shadow Ball is covered, there's no Super Effective offense from either Pokemon, making the situation more of a stalemate.

Plus it gives an electric resistance, and lures Ground attacks.

Plus, I think what's being missed is the versatility of a Fighting-Type when we finally get around to movepools.

Thinking ahead, Fighters usually get Payback to deal with Rotom, and Ice Punch and Stone Edge for Zapdos.

There are some perfectly fine reasons for an Electric secondary type.

Keep in mind that any type we come up with is either going to have a flaw in the partnership (as is natural, no strategy is perfect) or break the Pokemon in a way that it functions too well on its own, which I think would be far worse decision.

1) Shadow Ball isn't covered, cause you're going to either take a hit or switch to Togekiss, who can't do anything to Rotom.
2) Blizzard and HP Ice are covered? How? Neutral damage isn't THAT weak, especially since that's Fighting/Electrics only option about damaging those two anyway.
3) Other than required type moves, typing has little to no effect on movepools.


EDIT: Ooh, I like Mono Fighting! Since everyone was saying how important resistance to Electric would be I could see a Mono Fighting with Volt Absorb. I support that. Ice neutrality could be worked around with below average SpDef and decent HP.