Haha, I noticed that too, hoped somebody would fix it ;P
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Bisharp (Analysis)
- Thread starter Galladiator
- Start date
Bumping YET AGAIN...
a) Completely agree with Foresty
b) I already approved this....
c) Change the status set to Foresty's and then we're done
EDIT: change the spread to 132 HP / 172 Atk / 204 SDef Adamant - same defenses, but with like 15 more attack. Also, mention how you can max out HP or just add some more bulk if desired, since his attack is still massive.
b) I already approved this....
c) Change the status set to Foresty's and then we're done
EDIT: change the spread to 132 HP / 172 Atk / 204 SDef Adamant - same defenses, but with like 15 more attack. Also, mention how you can max out HP or just add some more bulk if desired, since his attack is still massive.
Sorry, didn't see the little "3/3" at the bottom of your post...making the changes, and I'll edit this post when I'm ready for GP.
EDIT: As promised, prose is up and ready for GP checks.
EDIT: As promised, prose is up and ready for GP checks.
You say that this is written, but you really need to expand the Additional Comments for each set. For one thing, you need to explain the EVs and nature for each set, what they do, etc, why Competitive Spirit is chosen over Inner Focus, in what situations Iron Head or Brick Break would be better, explain the item choices fully, and also giving specific Team Options for both sets. The format needs changing too, but that isn't really important right now and can be done later.
Oh, and it's only ready for grammar checks once it's put on the GP queue (in the main 5th Gen section). Once you've bulked up the analysis a bit more, you should post there to advertise that it is ready.
Oh and also Alakazam and Gengar aren't exactly "counters" to Bisharp in any sense of the word, surely there must be some better examples than that?
Oh, and it's only ready for grammar checks once it's put on the GP queue (in the main 5th Gen section). Once you've bulked up the analysis a bit more, you should post there to advertise that it is ready.
Oh and also Alakazam and Gengar aren't exactly "counters" to Bisharp in any sense of the word, surely there must be some better examples than that?
Edited in all of bmb's changes, and PMed Rising_Dusk to add analysis to the queue.
I was just glancing at the analysis when I saw this. Standard Whimsicott does not use attacking moves.
Also, under the Counters section, you may as well just say Ground-Type moves, considering the existence of Earth Power, Hidden Power Ground, etc. Could also mention that Sucker Punch is PP stalled by smart players, ruining Bisharp's ability to offend. Any Psychic-, Ghost-, Bug-, or Flying- type with Taunt and/or Substitute/Recovery can also give Bisharp a hard time, if it lacks Iron Head. Not to mention, Toxicroak can come in on anything but Iron Head and use Vacuum Wave, preventing STAB in Sucker Punch and requiring a weak, unSTABed, ineffective Brick Break of Bisharp. Now that I think of it, anything with priority and resistance (with decent defenses)/immunity to Bisharp's other move can stop it.
-Zane
P.S. Upon proofreading my post, I realized that maybe Magnezone is a good partner for Bisharp, as it can reliably remove Steel types that force Bisharp to use Brick Break in order to lessen its counters list. It's unfortunate, though, that they share the exact same weaknesses.
Thanks for the help!
For Whimsicott, I was simply stating that Sucker Punch could theoretically OHKO Whimsicott, assuming its user was stupid enough to try to attack, but yeah, I wasn't thinking. I'll change that ASAP.
As far as Earth Power and Co., they aren't as common in the current metagame as Earthquake, as a lot of Pokemon that were viable with it in Gen 4 have new moves/abilities, and a lot of Gen 5 Pokemon that would benefit greatly from having it don't. I'll mention Earth Power, but HP Ground simply isn't all that viable.
Taunters aren't that problematic, as most Bisharp will carry Iron Head, but Toxicroak is, like all Fighting-types, a HUGE problem, although Bisharp should be able to kill it easily with Iron Head (provided it isn't raining).
Finally, Magnezone was considered in the Team Options section, as it provides a nice Steel-trapping, special-based counterpoint to Bisharp's Sucker Punch sweeping. Unfortunately, I ultimately decided against including it because, as you mentioned, they share the same weaknesses to Ground, Fighting, and Fire, and as such could very rarely, if ever, switch with each other against a strong opponent who's been known to carry Earthquake/Close Combat/whatever.
Again, thanks for your comments!
Yeah, I was reflecting on it, and thought that maybe Choice Specs/Scarf Moltres would be a good partner. They compliment each other pretty well, as Moltres can utilize its good Speed, awesome Special Attack, above average bulk, and Flying- and Fire-type STABs to destroy enemy Fighting- and Steel-types that plague poor Bisharp. Unfortunately, I don't believe Moltres can handle Excadrill, but not many things can, anyways.
However, I would emphasize the use of Iron Head with a team mate to handle opposing Steel-types. It helps deal with a lot of the problems Bisharp has.
And my point was to just switch it to "Ground-". Being too specific is kind of awkward for an analysis, in my opinion. Like, "Bisharp has a glaring Mach Punch, Drain Punch, Close Combat, Fire Blast, Sacred Sword, and Hidden Power type choice weakness". Obviously, that's a hyperbole, but I would personally be more general in an analysis. d:
This guy is awesome... I just wish it were a bit faster, and I wish a stronger Dark-type STAB existed. ):
-Zane
Actually, Moltres might at least force Excadrill out, as it can switch in on Earthquake and--unless Dory has Rock Slide--should at least do a number on it with Fire Blast.
Ironically enough, your example isn't hyperbole at all, lol. Bisharp gets completely owned by any Fighting move over 60 Base Power before STAB. I take your point about Ground-type moves, though. I'll change that.
Dory almost always carries rock slide...
E before l in Conkeldurr.
Could Psycho Cut be mentioned in optional changes, given Bisharp is perfect Conkeldurr bait? Just curious.
No, Conkeldurr takes physical attacks quite well so it's best if you switch to a ghost or psychic type and go from there.
Well, excuse me...
night slash
iron head
low sweep
rock polish
works fine for me so far. you just need to find out what u want ur bisharp's purpose to be. I have this one to switch in on anything that it most likely will force a switch in. Sometimes I even make it a lead just to see if they're going to assume i switch. low sweep over brick break to lower the speed of whatever walls you or that you just can't kill so someone can avenge. Regardless, this set has helped me through quite a few battles. No set guarantees 100% victory anyways.
iron head
low sweep
rock polish
works fine for me so far. you just need to find out what u want ur bisharp's purpose to be. I have this one to switch in on anything that it most likely will force a switch in. Sometimes I even make it a lead just to see if they're going to assume i switch. low sweep over brick break to lower the speed of whatever walls you or that you just can't kill so someone can avenge. Regardless, this set has helped me through quite a few battles. No set guarantees 100% victory anyways.
Bisharp does have respectable attack, it has lousy STAB attacks to use it. Night Slash and Iron Head aren't anything special for coverage or base power, especially when Terrakion has similar weaknesses, better defenses, better base speed (enough to outspeed EVERYTHING after a boost), and better coverage and boosting options. Similarly, Agiligross has the same speed, better power, better coverage, better defenses, and better defensive typing... and nobody uses it.
Unlike gen3/gen4 Agiligross, though, the top end for speed is crowded. It's not a case of just removing CS Flygon any more. The revenge killers to beat are 95-or-more-base-speed scarfers, like Garchomp, Mienshao, Terrakion, Haxorus, Hydreigon, the various fairies, and everyone's running one (if not multiples). To outrun these revenge killers, you'll need to sacrifice bulk and possibly even run Jolly instead of Adamant. It's not a matter of just outrunning scarf TTar and scarf Rotom-A any more. Plus, priority of all sorts, offensive Deo-S, and weather sweepers will just clean your clock, nothing you can do about it.
SD Bisharp already does the job of breaking down offensive teams more effectively, because they are less likely to have the tools to deal with an extremely hard-hitting Sucker Puncher late-game, if it gets set up. Rock Polish Bisharp only threatens offensive teams, but the SD set does a better job of that, while also threatening other sorts of teams more effectively as well.
Again, this is the eyeball test, not a playtest, but I don't think this is a practical set, based on experience with similar Pokemon.
tl;dr: Based on eyeballing it, I'd say Rock Polish Bisharp is outclassed by other Bisharp sets, as well as similar sets on Pokemon better suited to such movesets.
Seconding AMIB. I playtested Rock Polish, but it didn't hit hard enough without a Swords Dance to justify running it over SD. So yeah, no. It works in theory, but in practice it flops.
Would also like to point out that Sucker Punch is a plenty good STAB option--Bisharp's best option, in fact--which is why it's listed instead of Night Slash; it also functions as priority, something the black bishop badly needs with his terrible Speed.
Would also like to point out that Sucker Punch is a plenty good STAB option--Bisharp's best option, in fact--which is why it's listed instead of Night Slash; it also functions as priority, something the black bishop badly needs with his terrible Speed.
whoever wants a bisharp lvl 69 EV'd but has exp. then tell me
Proofread
Red=Deletion
Bold=Correction
Will finish the rest in a sec.
Red=Deletion
Bold=Correction
[Overview]
<p>The first thing that sticks out when one looks at Bisharp is his odd type combination. Dark-/Steel-typing gives him two key resistances to both Dragon- and Ghost-type attacks, but at the same time opens him up to super-effective Ground- and Fighting-type moves, two common move types in the metagame. Fortunately, Bisharp makes up for his weak defensive typing with his excellent base 125 Attack, leaving at least a large dent in many of his opponents. Bisharp does have a decidedly middle-of-the-road base Speed of 70, meaning he gets outsped and sometimes KOed by two-thirds of the metagame. At least, he would Luckily he has access to the powerful Sucker Punch through breeding, nullifying his Speed issues and 2HKOing--or sometimes even OHKOing--most opponents that don't resist the move. Outside of this, Bisharp's movepool does give him a slight amount of maneuverability, allowing him to avoid being completely predictable.</p>
[SET]
Name: Swords Dance
move 1: Swords Dance
move 2: Substitute
move 2: Sucker Punch
move 4: Brick Break / Iron Head
item: Life Orb / Leftovers
ability: Defiant
nature: Adamant
evs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
[SET COMMENTS]
<p>This is essentially the best set Bisharp can run. After a Swords Dance, Bisharp's Attack jumps to a massive 766, enough to OHKO just about anything in the metagame, bar Ferrothorn Lucario or Conkledurr, with a STABed Sucker Punch. Alternatively, you could run Night Slash, which saves face against the newly viable SubDisable Gengar set, but it's not quite as powerful and doesn't have priority, so it's not recommended. Substitute helps Bisharp set up on an opponent's switch to Conkledurr or Ferrothorn, then KO with Iron Head or Brick Break, respectively. The item choice is according to preference: in the end, it's a question of the power of Life Orb versus the survivability of Leftovers. Life Orb is recommended, but either one works.</p>
[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
<p>The set deals nicely with common threats such as like Reuniclus and Salamence, OHKOing both with Sucker Punch. If you find the recoil damage from Life Orb to be somewhat off-putting, Leftovers can be held to make life slightly easier after Substituting, but beware that Bisharp's moves will lose a great deal of power. The choice between Iron Head and Brick Break is purely subjective, as it all depends on who you want to hit. Iron Head can be used against Fighting-resistant, bulky Pokemon, like Dragonite or Cosmic Power Sigilyph, while Brick Break allows for perfect type coverage to fill the hole left by Sucker Punch (which is ineffective against Dark-, Fighting-, and Steel-types, two of which Brick Break hits super effectively). Conkledurr and Excadrill have little to no trouble weathering a reststed resisted Sucker Punch and OHKOing with Drain Punch and Earthquake, respectively. This can be rectified by using Gengar to absorb the incoming attack and responding with the appropriate move (Shadow Ball in Conkledurr's case, or Focus Blast for Excadrill). Max EVs in Attack allow for the aforementioned jump to 766 after Swords Dance; the HP EVs are mainly for sponging hits, but these can be shifted into defenses if you prefer. Inner Focus should only be used in place of Competitive Spirit if you plan on switching Bisharp to the front in the Team Preview, in case you run into the now-relatively rare Fake Out lead; this, however, is obviously not practical, and you're better off using Competitive Spirit since you get a free Attack boost on top of your (hopefully) already accumulated Swords Dance when Intimidators like Gyarados try to switch in.</p>
[SET]
name: Thunder Wave
move 1: Thunder Wave
move 2: Pursuit
move 3: Sucker Punch
move 4: Brick Break / Iron Head
item: Life Orb / Balloon
ability: Defiant
nature: Adamant
evs: 132 HP / 172 Atk / 204 SpD Sp. Def
[SET COMMENTS]
<p>Bisharp can also play the part of bulky status inducer. Thunder Wave is vital to this set, as is greatly slows down faster set-up sweepers that would otherwise kill Bisharp off the bat and proceed to sweep. Sucker Punch, again, provides strong STABed priority, and is Bisharp's attack of choice. Pursuit is the second key element of the set, since it can take statused opponents who try to switch out by surprise. Once again, the last slot is up to preference: Iron Head for secondary STAB, or Brick Break to achieve perfect type coverage alongside Sucker Punch.</p>
[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
<p>As with the Swords Dance set, Fighting-types--above all Conkledurr--are the bane of Bisharp's existence. In these instances, Bisharp's best hope is to try and use Thunder Wave and switch out the next turn. Life Orb, as usual, buffs Bisharp's Attack greatly at the cost of survivability; if you have trouble against Excadrill, try using Balloon to at least buy a turn to dent it with Brick Break. Better yet, you could run a fast Water-type like Gyarados to counter Excadrill by switching in on an Earthquake and countering with Waterfall. Toxic can replace Thunder Wave, but it only really makes a difference against Grounds (although Excadrill is immune to both anyway). As for the EVs, even with only 172 EVs in Attack, Bisharp reaches a not-too-shabby 330, while the Special Defense EVs defend against common special moves it can switch into, like Hydro Pump or Draco Meteor. As an alternative, you can max out HP to help sponge some hits, or the HP EVs listed can be spent on Defense to help Bisharp survive more physical hits. Again, running Inner Focus on this set is not a good idea; in fact, it's actually a worse idea here, as Bisharp has no way to add to his Attack bar Competitive Spirit boosts.</p>
[Other Options]
<p>As stated previously, Bisharp's movepool depth is slightly above average, giving a fair few options outside of those listed. Ankle Sweep deals about the same damage as Brick Break, plus lowers the opponent's Speed, which is always welcome. Bisharp also has access to Stealth Rock, which can be used to great effect alongside Taunt and Thunder Wave in a makeshift lead set; it should be noted, however, that Stealth Rock is illegal with Sucker Punch. Rock Polish can replace Swords Dance on the first set to fix Bisharp's low Speed, but its use is redundant with Sucker Punch, and the set greatly misses the power boost afforded by Swords Dance.</p>
[Checks and Counters]
<p>Conkledurr tends to have a field day with Bisharp, switching in on a failed Sucker Punch and 2HKOing--sometimes OHKOing--with Mach Punch. Excadrill resists all of Bisharp's common moves bar Brick Break, and easily kill variants not holding Balloon. In fact, anything with a strong Fighting-, Fire-, or Ground-type move (assuming Bisharp doesn't have a Balloon) can kill Bisharp, as long as it resists, or at least takes neutral damage from, Sucker Punch, and has over base 70 Speed. Even non-Choice Scarf Heatran can outspeed and kill with Fire Blast.</p>
[Dream World]
<p>Bisharp gets the ability Pressure in the Dream World. In practice, this ability is fairly worthless; if you run a lead set, it <i>might</i> be worth consideration there, but everywhere else, it forfeits a great Attack boost from Defiant when Intimidators switch in.</p>
<p>The first thing that sticks out when one looks at Bisharp is his odd type combination. Dark-/Steel-typing gives him two key resistances to both Dragon- and Ghost-type attacks, but at the same time opens him up to super-effective Ground- and Fighting-type moves, two common move types in the metagame. Fortunately, Bisharp makes up for his weak defensive typing with his excellent base 125 Attack, leaving at least a large dent in many of his opponents. Bisharp does have a decidedly middle-of-the-road base Speed of 70, meaning he gets outsped and sometimes KOed by two-thirds of the metagame. At least, he would Luckily he has access to the powerful Sucker Punch through breeding, nullifying his Speed issues and 2HKOing--or sometimes even OHKOing--most opponents that don't resist the move. Outside of this, Bisharp's movepool does give him a slight amount of maneuverability, allowing him to avoid being completely predictable.</p>
[SET]
Name: Swords Dance
move 1: Swords Dance
move 2: Substitute
move 2: Sucker Punch
move 4: Brick Break / Iron Head
item: Life Orb / Leftovers
ability: Defiant
nature: Adamant
evs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
[SET COMMENTS]
<p>This is essentially the best set Bisharp can run. After a Swords Dance, Bisharp's Attack jumps to a massive 766, enough to OHKO just about anything in the metagame, bar Ferrothorn Lucario or Conkledurr, with a STABed Sucker Punch. Alternatively, you could run Night Slash, which saves face against the newly viable SubDisable Gengar set, but it's not quite as powerful and doesn't have priority, so it's not recommended. Substitute helps Bisharp set up on an opponent's switch to Conkledurr or Ferrothorn, then KO with Iron Head or Brick Break, respectively. The item choice is according to preference: in the end, it's a question of the power of Life Orb versus the survivability of Leftovers. Life Orb is recommended, but either one works.</p>
[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
<p>The set deals nicely with common threats such as like Reuniclus and Salamence, OHKOing both with Sucker Punch. If you find the recoil damage from Life Orb to be somewhat off-putting, Leftovers can be held to make life slightly easier after Substituting, but beware that Bisharp's moves will lose a great deal of power. The choice between Iron Head and Brick Break is purely subjective, as it all depends on who you want to hit. Iron Head can be used against Fighting-resistant, bulky Pokemon, like Dragonite or Cosmic Power Sigilyph, while Brick Break allows for perfect type coverage to fill the hole left by Sucker Punch (which is ineffective against Dark-, Fighting-, and Steel-types, two of which Brick Break hits super effectively). Conkledurr and Excadrill have little to no trouble weathering a reststed resisted Sucker Punch and OHKOing with Drain Punch and Earthquake, respectively. This can be rectified by using Gengar to absorb the incoming attack and responding with the appropriate move (Shadow Ball in Conkledurr's case, or Focus Blast for Excadrill). Max EVs in Attack allow for the aforementioned jump to 766 after Swords Dance; the HP EVs are mainly for sponging hits, but these can be shifted into defenses if you prefer. Inner Focus should only be used in place of Competitive Spirit if you plan on switching Bisharp to the front in the Team Preview, in case you run into the now-relatively rare Fake Out lead; this, however, is obviously not practical, and you're better off using Competitive Spirit since you get a free Attack boost on top of your (hopefully) already accumulated Swords Dance when Intimidators like Gyarados try to switch in.</p>
[SET]
name: Thunder Wave
move 1: Thunder Wave
move 2: Pursuit
move 3: Sucker Punch
move 4: Brick Break / Iron Head
item: Life Orb / Balloon
ability: Defiant
nature: Adamant
evs: 132 HP / 172 Atk / 204 SpD Sp. Def
[SET COMMENTS]
<p>Bisharp can also play the part of bulky status inducer. Thunder Wave is vital to this set, as is greatly slows down faster set-up sweepers that would otherwise kill Bisharp off the bat and proceed to sweep. Sucker Punch, again, provides strong STABed priority, and is Bisharp's attack of choice. Pursuit is the second key element of the set, since it can take statused opponents who try to switch out by surprise. Once again, the last slot is up to preference: Iron Head for secondary STAB, or Brick Break to achieve perfect type coverage alongside Sucker Punch.</p>
[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
<p>As with the Swords Dance set, Fighting-types--above all Conkledurr--are the bane of Bisharp's existence. In these instances, Bisharp's best hope is to try and use Thunder Wave and switch out the next turn. Life Orb, as usual, buffs Bisharp's Attack greatly at the cost of survivability; if you have trouble against Excadrill, try using Balloon to at least buy a turn to dent it with Brick Break. Better yet, you could run a fast Water-type like Gyarados to counter Excadrill by switching in on an Earthquake and countering with Waterfall. Toxic can replace Thunder Wave, but it only really makes a difference against Grounds (although Excadrill is immune to both anyway). As for the EVs, even with only 172 EVs in Attack, Bisharp reaches a not-too-shabby 330, while the Special Defense EVs defend against common special moves it can switch into, like Hydro Pump or Draco Meteor. As an alternative, you can max out HP to help sponge some hits, or the HP EVs listed can be spent on Defense to help Bisharp survive more physical hits. Again, running Inner Focus on this set is not a good idea; in fact, it's actually a worse idea here, as Bisharp has no way to add to his Attack bar Competitive Spirit boosts.</p>
[Other Options]
<p>As stated previously, Bisharp's movepool depth is slightly above average, giving a fair few options outside of those listed. Ankle Sweep deals about the same damage as Brick Break, plus lowers the opponent's Speed, which is always welcome. Bisharp also has access to Stealth Rock, which can be used to great effect alongside Taunt and Thunder Wave in a makeshift lead set; it should be noted, however, that Stealth Rock is illegal with Sucker Punch. Rock Polish can replace Swords Dance on the first set to fix Bisharp's low Speed, but its use is redundant with Sucker Punch, and the set greatly misses the power boost afforded by Swords Dance.</p>
[Checks and Counters]
<p>Conkledurr tends to have a field day with Bisharp, switching in on a failed Sucker Punch and 2HKOing--sometimes OHKOing--with Mach Punch. Excadrill resists all of Bisharp's common moves bar Brick Break, and easily kill variants not holding Balloon. In fact, anything with a strong Fighting-, Fire-, or Ground-type move (assuming Bisharp doesn't have a Balloon) can kill Bisharp, as long as it resists, or at least takes neutral damage from, Sucker Punch, and has over base 70 Speed. Even non-Choice Scarf Heatran can outspeed and kill with Fire Blast.</p>
[Dream World]
<p>Bisharp gets the ability Pressure in the Dream World. In practice, this ability is fairly worthless; if you run a lead set, it <i>might</i> be worth consideration there, but everywhere else, it forfeits a great Attack boost from Defiant when Intimidators switch in.</p>
Will finish the rest in a sec.
I have a new set to be posted on here. It is an anti lead that deserves a mention. For starters i have put the set on this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebRWI43UvTY
Okay, so here is the set:
Bisharp @ Focus Sash
Brave/ Adamant: 252 HP 252 attk 4 def
Metal Burst
Suckerpunch
Protect
Pursuit
This set aims at eliminating a pokemon immedietly. It can be used as an anti lead or can be used later game (with rapid spin support.) First off, protect is used on fakeout users, to keep your sash. Then, you can use metal burst to take out any antilead that can deal damage. Bisharp's poor typing helps with this. Also, Suckerpunch can be used to finish off focus sash antileads, or can be used latergame. Pursuit is mainly used latergame, if you choose to save it. However, it can be usefull against the likes of psychic type leads that fear bisharp. As i have stated, the main reason for protect is to block fakeout, butit can also be used for scouting. The evs given provide for maximum power in both suckpunch/pursuit and metalburst. This set is great for utilizing Bisharp's slow speed to its own advantage. Therefore, i believe this set should have a serious mention. I created this set and i find it effective
Okay, so here is the set:
Bisharp @ Focus Sash
Brave/ Adamant: 252 HP 252 attk 4 def
Metal Burst
Suckerpunch
Protect
Pursuit
This set aims at eliminating a pokemon immedietly. It can be used as an anti lead or can be used later game (with rapid spin support.) First off, protect is used on fakeout users, to keep your sash. Then, you can use metal burst to take out any antilead that can deal damage. Bisharp's poor typing helps with this. Also, Suckerpunch can be used to finish off focus sash antileads, or can be used latergame. Pursuit is mainly used latergame, if you choose to save it. However, it can be usefull against the likes of psychic type leads that fear bisharp. As i have stated, the main reason for protect is to block fakeout, butit can also be used for scouting. The evs given provide for maximum power in both suckpunch/pursuit and metalburst. This set is great for utilizing Bisharp's slow speed to its own advantage. Therefore, i believe this set should have a serious mention. I created this set and i find it effective
It's interesting, but one major problem with it is that it's majorly walled by Ferrothorn (or any Steel-type, really). There's also the fact that dedicated leads (and, by extension, anti-leads) are pretty much extinct in the new metagame. Besides, Metal Burst isn't very competitive to begin with, since so few Pokemon get it and the ones that do are either almost worthless competitively (Aggron) or have better moves to run (Dialga).