Bisharp (Analysis)

DetroitLolcat

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Do you think a gimmicky Metal Burst lead set might work? Something like
Kirikizan @ Focus Sash, Inner Focus
Brave, 252 HP, 4 Def, 252 Attack, 0 Speed IV
-Taunt
-Metal Burst
-Sucker Punch
-Iron Head

You Taunt non-attacking leads and force them to attack you, and Metal Burst regular attackers. With 130 Speed and 334 HP, you'll OHKO most things that activate your Sash and you can Sucker Punch the rest off of 383 Attack. Iron Head's filler, but it has use against Tyranitar or something. This thing lures in Fighting types, so maybe you can surprise their Roobushin.
 
Keep Flygon in, just in case someone DOES use it. If a counter exists hypothetically, mention it, because somebody, somewhere will probably have a FLygon in their team!
Flygon isn't a counter to sets with Sucker Punch, and sets without Sucker Punch lose to..., well, pretty much anything faster that isn't choice-locked into a resisted move. If we were going to list all of those, the analysis would be nothing but counters.

Plus, nobody uses Flygon.

Both will make setting up much easier, and Kirikizan can use Iron Head alongside Chople to survive Mach Punch and KO Roobushin with some previous damage (+2 does 76.4% - 90%) as well as survive some other fighting attacks.
I've run this, after someone was raving about it in an RMT. It just doesn't work very well.

Bisharp goes for the SD, and Conk comes in. Bad players will Mach Punch right there to go for the OHKO, hit the Chople Berry, and...Bisharp gets a +2 Iron Head in but it still doesn't OHKO. So they cripple each other and Conkeldurr has to switch out, best-case. However, most people expect a switch out and Drain Punch aiming for the switch, so their Conk takes a +2 Iron Head and wrecks Bisharp in reply, healing out of Sucker Punch range. This play was the most common one even before people knew I was running Chople; if Chople were published on a Smogon analysis, even fewer people would Mach Punch. It's surprising and unexpected when it works to KO a damaged Conkeldurr, so it feels powerful. It just isn't winning many games, and it's quietly losing you many others because Bisharp is doing so much less damage to everyone else.

Besides Conkeldurr's Mach Punch, Chople Berry is pretty marginal. CS TTar Superpower does 80.2% - 94.6%; Superpower from mixed TTar would certainly be less, but mixed attackers can OHKO with Fire Blast (or Focus Punch) but can't take a boosted Iron Head anyway. CB Scizor OHKOs with Superpower straight through the Chople Berry. Even CS Scizor does 77.8% - 92.2%. Every Reuniclus EV spread from the analysis at least usually OHKOs with Focus Blast, and every Gengar certainly will. Every non-gimmick Focus Punch will OHKO through Chople; a Focus Punch from max attack adamant Blissey would do 53.3% - 62.9%. Even goofy nonsense like CS Staraptor's Close Combat is doing 81.4% - 95.8% through Chople.

As for fighting types, forget it. CB Conkeldurr, Infernape, Blaziken, all three Musketeer legendaries, Mienshao, Sawk, Lucario, Toxicroak, and DD Scrafty take a boosted Sucker Punch or outspeed any other attack and OHKO even through Chople Berry. LO Bisharp is better at beating slower fighters, like Machamp, Throh, and Bulk Up Scrafty, because LO makes OHKOs with +2 Iron Head possible.

It's important to remember that Conkeldurr's Mach Punch is an anomaly. It's rare to see an unboosted 40 base power attack in this metagame, of any attack type. The only reason it's a threat to Bisharp unboosted is because Bisharp has a quad weakness and merely middling physical defense overall. Using an item which protects you from only one of two fighting attacks on one single Pokemon in a metagame full of threats to Bisharp is pure gimmick material.

tl;dr: It's an Electivire-tier noob trap that wins big against a misplay but doesn't work very well most of the time.

You Taunt non-attacking leads and force them to attack you, and Metal Burst regular attackers. With 130 Speed and 334 HP
I see a glaring issue right here. Taunting isn't going to do much good if Bisharp doesn't outspeed. Also, Conkeldurr (and Throh) will be slower despite the 0 speed IV, so Metal Burst would be ineffective except against Mach Punch.

Plus, on its best day, all it does is get one KO then get revenged by anything in the game.
 

panamaxis

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Don't even slash inner focus, Competitive Spirit is a much better ability, Bisharps stats are gonna be lowered a lot more often than it's going to get flinched. But yeah this looks good otherwise. QC Approved 2/2
 
Plus, on its best day, all it does is get one KO then get revenged by anything in the game.
Assuming you're talking about Lolcat's set, in which case I agree. However, if you mean Bisharp in his entirety, I'd disagree; with a boosted Sucker Punch, he absolutely rips teams apart.

Don't even slash inner focus, Competitive Spirit is a much better ability, Bisharps stats are gonna be lowered a lot more often than it's going to get flinched. But yeah this looks good otherwise. QC Approved 2/2
Point taken, IF removed. Thanks so much!

So, question: does this mean I can go on to Copyediting, or do I still need a third QC check?
 
Mention Substitute in additional comments in place on Stone Edge / Iron Head in the SD set. Sure, you lose against ghosts with Substitute, but it allows you to set up on a much wider variety of pokemon, and allows you to beat threats you would otherwise lose against like Terakion, Roobushin, Doryuuzu, Ghost Types with Will-O-Wisp etc. It also works well with Sucker Punch as it requires the use of an attacking move at the risk of you setting up more while behind the sub. I would even go as far as to say that it deserves a slash, but that's just my opinion.
 

Bologo

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Mention Substitute in additional comments in place on Stone Edge / Iron Head in the SD set. Sure, you lose against ghosts with Substitute, but it allows you to set up on a much wider variety of pokemon, and allows you to beat threats you would otherwise lose against like Terakion, Roobushin, Doryuuzu, Ghost Types with Will-O-Wisp etc. It also works well with Sucker Punch as it requires the use of an attacking move at the risk of you setting up more while behind the sub. I would even go as far as to say that it deserves a slash, but that's just my opinion.
It absolutely deserves a slash, I'd even say the first slash. Aside from being able to dodge Will-O-Wisps and set up on resistances, as well as getting a lot of Swords Dances much easier, it lets you set up on what is arguably the #1 used pokemon in the metagame - Ferrothorn. Ferrothorn can't break Bisharp's Subs, and it can use Leech Seed through the Sub either. It also eases Sucker Punch's prediction so much it's not even funny.

With Sub on the set, Bisharp is easily able to compete in OU, and I'm not kidding here, because I've tested him for well over 100 battles, and half the time it was him doing the sweeping.

The set I use is

Bisharp @Dread Plate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe
Competitive Spirit
Adamant Nature

- Substitute
- Swords Dance
- Sucker Punch
- Brick Break

Yes, you do lose to stuff like Sub Gengar, but you absolutely decimate a lot of other things with this combination of moves. At the very least Substitute needs a slash.
 
ahh good ol' competitive spirit. there is power in numbers i guess haha. decent analysis good 'mon
Thanks, good to know you approve.

/sarcasm

Mention Substitute in additional comments in place on Stone Edge / Iron Head in the SD set. Sure, you lose against ghosts with Substitute, but it allows you to set up on a much wider variety of pokemon, and allows you to beat threats you would otherwise lose against like Terakion, Roobushin, Doryuuzu, Ghost Types with Will-O-Wisp etc. It also works well with Sucker Punch as it requires the use of an attacking move at the risk of you setting up more while behind the sub. I would even go as far as to say that it deserves a slash, but that's just my opinion.
I'll test it and see how it goes.
 
once again with the thunder wave toxic rebuttal you had. lets say you flipped it the other way around. would your comments be this. "toxic to slowly kill your opponents, or thunder wave for steels and poisions." that's just totally irrelevant. once again expert belt in any and all cases makes for less damage output than life orb. i dont know if you're just in denial about that or what but "in most cases" is misleading and false. oh hey look you removed the bad lead set and removed flygon as a counter. good job. only a few more of my original pieces of advice you need to take and you'll be golden =D
 
A comment about the EV's but Bisharp really benefits more from some split investment into SDef/HP EV's over full HP. Most of the things it will be coming into tend to be special based and having some investment softens the blow, I've experimented with Careful HP-132, SDef-124 Bisharp for a short while and I found that regardless of +atk or neutral atk it'll still be OHKO'ing the stuff it needs to after Swords Dance.

Realistically speaking I can think of very little physical attackers it'll ever be coming on with that typing.
 
A comment about the EV's but Bisharp really benefits more from some split investment into SDef/HP EV's over full HP. Most of the things it will be coming into tend to be special based and having some investment softens the blow, I've experimented with Careful HP-132, SDef-124 Bisharp for a short while and I found that regardless of +atk or neutral atk it'll still be OHKO'ing the stuff it needs to after Swords Dance.

Realistically speaking I can think of very little physical attackers it'll ever be coming on with that typing.
Perhaps you're right, I'll test it and see.
 

Bloo

Banned deucer.
Starting with the 'Status Sweeper' set: why do you need 252 Speed EVs? Bisharp isn't that fast in the first place, and you're going to be using Thunder Wave to slow down your opponents anyway. Additionally, your main attacking move, Sucker Punch, offers priority, making the Speed EVs even more unnecessary. I would much rather shift those Speed EVs into HP. This makes Bisharp a great switch into Latios' Draco Meteors. After you take the Draco Meteor, you can then Pursuit it to dispose of the dragon. So yeah, 252 HP > 252 Speed IMO. If you do make this change, remove Jolly as a nature choice for obvious reasons and put the four remaining EVs in Special Defense to help with Draco Meteor's.

Continuing off the 'Status Sweeper' set, I'd like to see Leftovers slashed alongside Life Orb. Leftovers is great on nearly every Pokemon, especially if they're investing in bulk. Bisharp is no exception. Leftover's a great item to slightly increase his longevity / help him take Draco Meteor's and whatnot more effectively. I'd then move Balloon into Additional Comments, since I think Leftovers is more important here. Speaking of Additional Comments, why is Toxic slashed with Thunder Wave. Thunder Wave seems like the crux of this set, since it's the move that's slowing your opponent's 'mons down, allowing Bisharp to do his thing. Toxic is only really useful for Landlos and other Ground-types, so I'd say move it down to AC. Plus, less necessary slashes makes the set look a lot cleaner!

Moving onto the 'Swords Dance' set: I don't see why Expert Belt is slashed next to Life Orb. Bisharp doesn't really have good coverage. You'll also be KOing most things that are weak to Sucker Punch without the Expert belt boost anyways, so it seems unnecessary to run Expert Belt. If you're looking for alternative items to slash Life Orb with, make it Leftovers. Balloon can be mentioned in Additional Comments since it makes it easier for Bisharp to set up. Expert Belt can also be mentioned there as well.

And lastly, mention Rock Polish in Optional Changes. While it's not as effective as Bisharp's Swords Dance set, it still has some use, and as such, deserves a mention.

In the end, the sets should look like this:

[SET]
Name: Swords Dance
move 1: Swords Dance
move 2: Sucker Punch / Night Slash
move 3: Brick Break
move 4: Stone Edge / Iron Head
item: Life Orb / Leftovers
ability: Competitive Spirit
nature: Adamant
evs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def

<Mention of Balloon and Expert Belt in Additional Comments>


[SET]
name: Status Sweeper
move 1: Thunder Wave
move 2: Sucker Punch
move 3: Pursuit
move 4: Brick Break / Iron Head
item: Life Orb / Leftovers
ability: Competitive Spirit
nature: Adamant
evs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD

<Mention of Toxic and Balloon in Additional Comments>


That's all I have to say. I'll approve this later.

EDIT: Oh, as Bologo AND iDUNNO stated in his post, definitely mention Substitute somewhere. It's an excellent move on Bisharp since it makes it easier for him to set up a Swords Dance, especially against things like Ferrothorn.
 
EDIT: Oh, as Bologo stated in his post, definitely mention Substitute somewhere. It's an excellent move on Bisharp since it makes it easier for him to set up a Swords Dance, especially against things like Ferrothorn.
That was my post, first :(. But yeah, I would go as far to say that Kirikizan is far superior with Substitute than without, partly due to the fact that its speed sucks balls and it is easily revenged without it.

Edit: Thank you Bloo, my life has been completed.
 
EDIT: Oh, as Bologo stated in his post, definitely mention Substitute somewhere. It's an excellent move on Bisharp since it makes it easier for him to set up a Swords Dance, especially against things like Ferrothorn.
My playtesting receives similar results. Major analysis edit.
 
I would much rather shift those Speed EVs into HP. This makes Bisharp a great switch into Latios' Draco Meteors. After you take the Draco Meteor, you can then Pursuit it to dispose of the dragon. After you take the Draco Meteor, you can then Pursuit it to dispose of the dragon.
Just like to make a small nitpick about something kinda important in that statement. For this I assume you're talking about the 'Status Sweeper' set since I doubt SD Sweeper would have room for both Sucker Punch and Pursuit.

Specs Timid 252SAtk Latios Draco Meteor vs Neutral 252HP, 0SDef Bisharp = 68.6% - 80.8%.

It becomes a pure guessing game after the switch in, if he decides to call your bluff and you Pursuit or T-Wave he KO's with a 2nd Meteor, if you Sucker Punch you win. If you Sucker Punch and he runs than he resets the situation and all you get is a cripple. In short you'd have to do a revenge kill switching in after something else is gone to make it reliable which I simply would never feel comfortable suggesting in any situation.

If for the status sweeper you switched to the proposed spread of Careful 132HP, 124SDef you instead get.

Specs Timid 252SAtk Latios Draco Meteor vs Careful 132HP, 124SDef Bisharp = 58.6% - 69.1%

Which is far more reliable instead of hoping for your opponent to make a move in your favour or sacrificing something for a revenge kill whilst still allowing Bisharp to still run 252Atk. A few more relevant calcs which shows some other uses for it too.

LO Timid 252SAtk Starmie Ice Beam vs Careful 132HP, 124SDef Bisharp = 19.4% - 22.7%
LO Timid 252SAtk Starmie Surf vs Careful 132HP, 124SDef Bisharp = 58.2% - 68.4%

LO Starmie is another situation where the investment pays off and forces it into a corner as even if it follows up with a Surf its going to come short of a kill. So in summary its probably worth it to ammend at least the Status Sweeper set to something like the following instead of a pure 252/252 spread. Lets face it Bisharp is going to still overkill its main targets with a Neutral 252Atk.

[SET]
name: Status Sweeper
move 1: Thunder Wave
move 2: Sucker Punch
move 3: Pursuit
move 4: Brick Break / Iron Head
item: Life Orb / Leftovers
ability: Competitive Spirit
nature: Careful
evs: HP132 / 252 Atk / 124 SpD
 

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Bloo covered nearly everything. My only qualm is that Night Slash needs to be removed from the Swords Dance set. The whole point of using Bisharp is that +2 LO Sucker Punch wrecks everything. It's too slow to not have a priority move, really.

Make the change and this is approved, 3/3.
 

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