Kyurem-B gets Earth Power / Ice Beam and has Teravolt to bypass Bronzong and Rotom-W's Levitate. It doesn't get STAB on Earth Power but it's probably the best user of the combo that I can think of.
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Data Attack Pair Analysis
- Thread starter Dragontamer
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Why Kyu-B over Kyu-W? Were you excluding Ubers? Because both of those are special moves, which Kyu-W does much better with than Kyu-B.
Well, the first Psychic/Steel type I thought of was Jirachi. Just answering a question, not a big deal.
Is there a gen 2-5 version of this?
Interesting to see Poison/Ground so high up. The newly-buffed Gunk Shot as actually a pretty decent move with 80% accuracy and the ability to demolish fairies - if I recall it had a tutor in BW2, I wonder if anything notable gets to throw it out. At first glance the only thing I can really see making use of Poison/Ground is Druddigon, who can use Gunk Shot to obliterate any fairy foolish enough to try and wall it. I'm not sure if it has anything over the 180bp Sludge Bomb of Dragalge as far as dragons go, though.
...how 180?
Because people want to believe that Adaptability Draglage is a real thing even though we don't have proof yet.
Rotom-Wash, Rotom-Oven with Levitate of course.
And the fridge. Can't forget the fridge.
Hey, Ice defensive typing actually becomes useful for something!
Finding those pokemon that are good against Ghost / Fighting are pretty hard. Fortunately, a number of pokemon hit Ghost / Fighting neutral, especially all of the fairies. Unfortunately, the premier user of Ghost / Fighting is Gengar, who has easy access to STAB Sludge Bomb to own all Fairies. Without Sludge Bomb, I'm inclinded to think that Togekiss does well against the Ghost / Fighting type. 4x Resist Fighting, and it can be fairly bulky to resist Ghost. With perfect type coverage, it is impossible to expect anything better than that.
Ground Ice is only resisted by Water/Bug, and Ice/Bug, and Bronzong (thanks to Levitate).
Rock Ground is resisted by Earth/Grass and Fighting/Grass. Breloom and Torterra are the `mons to go.
Flying Ground is resisted by Electric/Flying, Steel/Flying, and Rock/Flying. (and of course, Levitate Bronzong / Levitate Rotom-W).
Fairy Ground is resisted by Poison/Flying, Steel/Flying, and Fire/Flying. (And once again, Levitate Bronzong)
Fairy Dark starts getting interesting. Poison / Fairy, Steel/Fairy, and Fire/Fairy are the only resists. IE: Mawile is the only pokemon to resist Fairy/Dark. This is the one to watch out for, if you can find it on any of the new fairies, it definitely needs to be an offensive core.
Fairy Ghost is resisted by Normal / Poison, Normal / Fire, and Normal / Steel. Unless Pyroar (Normal / Fire) becomes popular, this attack combo is also pretty much unresisted by the metagame.
Ground Ice is only resisted by Water/Bug, and Ice/Bug, and Bronzong (thanks to Levitate).
Rock Ground is resisted by Earth/Grass and Fighting/Grass. Breloom and Torterra are the `mons to go.
Flying Ground is resisted by Electric/Flying, Steel/Flying, and Rock/Flying. (and of course, Levitate Bronzong / Levitate Rotom-W).
Fairy Ground is resisted by Poison/Flying, Steel/Flying, and Fire/Flying. (And once again, Levitate Bronzong)
Fairy Dark starts getting interesting. Poison / Fairy, Steel/Fairy, and Fire/Fairy are the only resists. IE: Mawile is the only pokemon to resist Fairy/Dark. This is the one to watch out for, if you can find it on any of the new fairies, it definitely needs to be an offensive core.
Fairy Ghost is resisted by Normal / Poison, Normal / Fire, and Normal / Steel. Unless Pyroar (Normal / Fire) becomes popular, this attack combo is also pretty much unresisted by the metagame.
Something interesting I noticed is that Snorlax has almost perfect coverage now with Return/Body Slam & Crunch, making it's Curse set all the more useful (you really need to remove Terrakion though), something to watch out in UU at the very least
PS: Your forgot Virizon & Chesnaught for Grass/Fighting (And Bronzong)
PS: Your forgot Virizon & Chesnaught for Grass/Fighting (And Bronzong)
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For the Game of Thrones references, duh!
Man, you can't believe how many people you have helped with this. Thank you so much!
Klefki is another Steel/Fairy with a shot at OU, although it doesn't have the stats to tangle in combat.
That said, Fairy offensive coverage doesn't seem to be easy, given the lack of offensive presence of most Fairies and the lack of availability of the moves as good coverage. Dark Pulse doesn't seem to be available to Fairies at all, although Gardevoir can get Shadow Ball and is rising up in importance.
That said, Fairy offensive coverage doesn't seem to be easy, given the lack of offensive presence of most Fairies and the lack of availability of the moves as good coverage. Dark Pulse doesn't seem to be available to Fairies at all, although Gardevoir can get Shadow Ball and is rising up in importance.
Shroomisaur
Smogon's fantastical fun-guy.
I just wanted to give you a big "Thank you!" for compiling this list. I love data like this. It really helps show things that we already knew (Ghost/Fighting is amazing neutral coverage, EdgeQuake is still great, Mamoswine would be a terror with his STABs if he was faster, etc). It's also an interesting view on how the type chart has changed coverage.
The only suggestion I have would be to eliminate the defensive type combinations that don't exist (like Fire/Fairy) or aren't pratical competitively (Bug/Water is only Surskit). By removing these we can have a clearer picture as to which combos are truly the most effective.
(Mega) Mawile gets Play Rough / Sucker Punch for the nearly perfect Fairy / Dark attack pair.
Sylveon also gets Moonblast / Shadow Ball and can make a serviceable CM set with just those attacking moves.
Also, Dragon/Fire might indeed be less effective if the most prominent fairies are popular enough in OU. Besides Azumarill (who actually looks legitimately threatening now), Togekiss and Sylveon are bulky enough to take non-STAB Fire attacks on both sides while being 3HKO'd at worst. Steel/Ground is surprisingly high on the list, on the other hand, and Dragons may start using that as the second coverage move besides Earthquake.
Also, Dragon/Fire might indeed be less effective if the most prominent fairies are popular enough in OU. Besides Azumarill (who actually looks legitimately threatening now), Togekiss and Sylveon are bulky enough to take non-STAB Fire attacks on both sides while being 3HKO'd at worst. Steel/Ground is surprisingly high on the list, on the other hand, and Dragons may start using that as the second coverage move besides Earthquake.
On the subject of the nearly perfect Fairy / Shadow ball (resisted by lol Pyrorar)...
Togekiss has Dazzling Gleam / Shadow Ball / Nasty Plot. I don't think Togekiss is fast enough to sweep with Nasty Plot... but a Sticky Web might change that. (Togekiss outspeeds -1 Weavile and -1 Alakazam and OHKO with Dazzling Gleam / Shadow Ball respectively). Togekiss probably has to run Aura Sphere and hope to get to +6 vs Blissey or Chansey though, so it isn't going to be a clean sweep. Nasty Plotted Air Slash hax with Sticky Web support seems like a good idea however...
Flying/Ground seems good on paper, but it looks like practice will be different. Walled by Rock / Flying, Steel / Flying (Ugggh. Skarm), and Electric / Flying, as well as Levitators like Bronzong and Rotom-W. Nonetheless, it seems like a potent threat by Swords Dance Gliscor. Anyone have experience running Acrobat / Earthquake ?
Togekiss has Dazzling Gleam / Shadow Ball / Nasty Plot. I don't think Togekiss is fast enough to sweep with Nasty Plot... but a Sticky Web might change that. (Togekiss outspeeds -1 Weavile and -1 Alakazam and OHKO with Dazzling Gleam / Shadow Ball respectively). Togekiss probably has to run Aura Sphere and hope to get to +6 vs Blissey or Chansey though, so it isn't going to be a clean sweep. Nasty Plotted Air Slash hax with Sticky Web support seems like a good idea however...
Flying/Ground seems good on paper, but it looks like practice will be different. Walled by Rock / Flying, Steel / Flying (Ugggh. Skarm), and Electric / Flying, as well as Levitators like Bronzong and Rotom-W. Nonetheless, it seems like a potent threat by Swords Dance Gliscor. Anyone have experience running Acrobat / Earthquake ?
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For the Flying/Ground thing, you could pair that with a Gravity user (Landorus-T used it quite well, Mew, Jirachi and Magnezone could also setup Gravity then U-turn/Volt Switch out if needed to), unfortunately, that leaves you with two Pokemon with identical typings.. and only 4 turns (switching out), 3 turns if you plan to set up an SD, maybe 2 if you use a Sub or Roost for attacks.. but tbh, you don't really need that against Thundurus or Aerodactyl..
(w/ Gravity on)
+2 252+ Atk Flying Gem Gliscor Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 128 HP / 0 Def Thundurus-T: 96.07 - 113.29%
+2 252+ Atk Flying Gem Gliscor Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus-T: 106.02 - 124.74%
+2 252+ Atk Gliscor Earthquake vs. 128 HP / 0 Def Thundurus-T: 233.83 - 275.52%
+2 252+ Atk Gliscor Earthquake vs. 224 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 100.91 - 119.26%
+2 252+ Atk Gliscor Earthquake vs. 224 HP / 32 Def Skarmory: 129.05 - 152.29%
+2 252+ Atk Flying Gem Gliscor Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Aerodactyl: 124.91 - 147.17%
+2 252+ Atk Gliscor Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Aerodactyl: 303.65 - 357.47%
What's more important to keep in mind is ensuring rocks are up, if Dragonite's Multiscale is broken, you can OHKO after an SD + Flying Gem with Acrobatics. As long as Gravity is up, it should be okay, Thundurus can outspeed you though, so you have to watch out for that..
Hmm.. with Fairy/Ghost being nearly unresisted.. Specs/LO Sylveon could tear some holes through some teams @.@
Now that the metagame is beginning to shape up, lets look at some of the combinations that are coming out in practice, instead of theory.
Talonflame Brave Bird / Flare Blitz has been wreaking teams, despite being all the way down at 54 Super Effectives / 141 Non-resists. As soon as people realize they need a Rock pokemon to tank those powerful hits, perhaps Rock Pokemon will begin to make a comeback.
Other choices seem to be more or less standard as far as the list goes. Anyone else have experience with various attack combinations in actual practice?
Talonflame Brave Bird / Flare Blitz has been wreaking teams, despite being all the way down at 54 Super Effectives / 141 Non-resists. As soon as people realize they need a Rock pokemon to tank those powerful hits, perhaps Rock Pokemon will begin to make a comeback.
Other choices seem to be more or less standard as far as the list goes. Anyone else have experience with various attack combinations in actual practice?
First off, big fan of this, made a letter for RU that I never got around to finishing that was sort of based off this. Did some cursory research into this topic, but instead of one of each theoretical type I used the typing of "common" Pokemon (~2.5% or higher in Pokebank 1850 cuz i'm lazy) in the current metagame. I also listed Megas as separate only if their type changed (so 1 for Mega Charizard X and 1 for Mega Gyarados in this case). It turned out to be an even 60 type/ability combinations, which is good enough for me.
Four combos hit half the Pokes I checked super-effectively, and all four have Ice as one of the types. That Ice-Fire combo that was brought up earlier actually has decent super effective coverage, but being resisted by 10 Pokes is quite underwhelming. The others are the decent Ice-Fighting, and the continuously acclaimed Ice-Ground and BoltBeam.
I find it interesting that four type combos currently hit all the common Pokemon in OU neutrally, and all of them contain the Ghost type.
Regarding Talonflame, you do have the common options of Rotom-W, Heatran, (Mega) Tyranitar, and Tyrantrum that resist both STABs. Even just in Gen VI OU, only Heatran is lost as a resist.
Code:
Type 1 Type 2 Super Neutral
Ice Ground 32 59
Ice Fighting 31 55
Electric Ice 30 59
Fire Ice 30 50
Water Fairy 29 57
Ground Fairy 29 57
Fire Fairy 28 56
Electric Ground 28 54
Fighting Rock 27 59
Electric Fairy 27 57
Electric Fighting 27 55
Fire Electric 27 53
Fighting Fairy 27 53
Water Ice 27 52
Grass Ice 27 49
Fire Water 27 45
Ground Rock 26 59
Ice Rock 26 56
Water Electric 26 52
Fire Fighting 26 49
Fire Grass 26 48
Grass Ground 26 47
Ice Bug 26 47
Fire Rock 25 58
Water Fighting 25 49
Fighting Ground 25 47
Grass Fairy 25 46
Fighting Flying 24 59
Fire Dragon 24 58
Water Dragon 24 58
Electric Dragon 24 58
Fighting Dragon 24 55
Rock Fairy 24 55
Water Ground 24 50
Ground Bug 24 48
Fighting Ghost 23 60
Water Rock 23 58
Ice Ghost 23 58
Ground Dragon 23 58
Ice Flying 23 55
Fighting Psychic 23 55
Fighting Dark 23 55
Grass Rock 23 54
Water Bug 23 53
Ice Dark 23 52
Ice Fairy 23 51
Fire Ground 23 50
Ice Psychic 23 50
Fire Bug 23 47
Ghost Fairy 22 60
Dark Fairy 22 58
Grass Dragon 22 49
Grass Fighting 22 47
Ice Steel 22 45
Fighting Bug 22 42
Ground Flying 21 58
Water Ghost 21 56
Electric Flying 21 56
Electric Bug 21 56
Water Dark 21 55
Fighting Poison 21 55
Bug Rock 21 55
Flying Fairy 21 54
Water Grass 21 50
Ice Poison 21 50
Psychic Fairy 21 50
Electric Dark 20 58
Ground Ghost 20 58
Electric Ghost 20 57
Poison Ground 20 57
Grass Flying 20 55
Ground Dark 20 55
Fire Psychic 20 53
Electric Grass 20 52
Electric Rock 20 52
Poison Fairy 20 48
Steel Fairy 20 48
Fire Steel 20 46
Rock Ghost 19 59
Water Poison 19 58
Water Flying 19 58
Fire Flying 19 56
Fire Ghost 19 56
Electric Psychic 19 56
Rock Dark 19 56
Electric Steel 19 55
Psychic Rock 19 55
Water Psychic 19 54
Ground Steel 19 54
Fire Dark 19 53
Fighting Steel 19 52
Ice Dragon 19 51
Grass Psychic 19 48
Bug Fairy 19 46
Grass Ghost 18 58
Ground Psychic 18 56
Flying Rock 18 56
Fire Poison 18 54
Flying Dragon 18 54
Rock Dragon 18 54
Normal Ice 18 52
Water Steel 18 50
Grass Dark 18 50
Bug Dragon 18 46
Ice Ice 18 40
Grass Bug 18 39
Rock Steel 17 56
Flying Bug 17 54
Psychic Bug 17 51
Psychic Dragon 17 50
Dragon Fairy 17 50
Electric Poison 17 49
Ghost Dragon 16 60
Normal Fighting 16 57
Dragon Dark 16 53
Normal Fairy 16 49
Grass Poison 16 49
Poison Rock 16 49
Grass Steel 16 46
Fairy Fairy 16 44
Fighting Fighting 16 36
Normal Ground 15 58
Dragon Steel 15 51
Poison Dragon 15 49
Poison Bug 15 46
Bug Steel 15 43
Ground Ground 15 42
Normal Water 14 58
Flying Ghost 14 58
Normal Fire 14 57
Flying Dark 14 57
Normal Electric 14 56
Flying Steel 14 53
Electric Electric 14 40
Water Water 14 39
Fire Fire 14 35
Bug Ghost 13 60
Ghost Steel 13 57
Psychic Ghost 13 55
Steel Dark 13 55
Psychic Dark 13 53
Bug Dark 13 50
Psychic Steel 13 49
Poison Ghost 12 58
Poison Dark 12 56
Normal Rock 12 54
Poison Flying 12 52
Normal Grass 12 48
Rock Rock 12 48
Grass Grass 12 31
Poison Psychic 11 49
Flying Psychic 10 53
Normal Bug 10 49
Normal Dragon 10 49
Dragon Dragon 10 45
Bug Bug 10 30
Normal Flying 8 52
Poison Steel 8 50
Flying Flying 8 49
Normal Ghost 7 59
Normal Dark 7 56
Ghost Dark 7 55
Ghost Ghost 7 50
Normal Psychic 7 49
Dark Dark 7 44
Psychic Psychic 7 40
Normal Steel 6 51
Steel Steel 6 35
Normal Poison 5 46
Poison Poison 5 37
Normal Normal 0 45
Code:
Type 1 Type 2 Super Neutral
Fighting Ghost 23 60
Ghost Fairy 21 60
Ghost Dragon 16 60
Bug Ghost 12 60
Ice Ground 32 59
Electric Ice 30 59
Fighting Rock 27 59
Ground Rock 26 59
Fighting Flying 23 59
Ground Ghost 20 59
Rock Ghost 19 59
Grass Ghost 18 59
Normal Ghost 7 59
Fire Rock 25 58
Fire Dragon 24 58
Water Dragon 24 58
Electric Dragon 24 58
Water Rock 23 58
Ice Ghost 23 58
Ground Dragon 23 58
Dark Fairy 21 58
Electric Dark 20 58
Ground Flying 20 58
Water Poison 19 58
Water Flying 18 58
Normal Ground 15 58
Normal Water 14 58
Flying Ghost 13 58
Poison Ghost 12 58
Water Fairy 28 57
Ground Fairy 28 57
Electric Fairy 26 57
Electric Ghost 20 57
Poison Ground 20 57
Ground Psychic 18 57
Normal Fighting 16 57
Normal Fire 14 57
Flying Dark 13 57
Ghost Steel 13 57
Fire Fairy 28 56
Ice Rock 26 56
Water Ghost 21 56
Electric Flying 20 56
Electric Bug 20 56
Ground Dark 20 56
Fire Flying 19 56
Fire Ghost 19 56
Electric Psychic 19 56
Rock Dark 19 56
Flying Rock 18 56
Rock Steel 17 56
Normal Electric 14 56
Psychic Ghost 13 56
Poison Dark 12 56
Normal Dark 7 56
Ghost Dark 7 56
Ice Fighting 31 55
Fighting Dragon 24 55
Rock Fairy 24 55
Fighting Psychic 23 55
Fighting Dark 23 55
Ice Flying 22 55
Water Dark 21 55
Fighting Poison 21 55
Bug Rock 21 55
Grass Flying 19 55
Psychic Rock 19 55
Steel Dark 13 55
Electric Ground 28 54
Electric Fighting 27 54
Grass Rock 23 54
Flying Fairy 20 54
Water Psychic 19 54
Electric Steel 19 54
Ground Steel 19 54
Fire Poison 18 54
Rock Dragon 18 54
Flying Dragon 17 54
Flying Bug 16 54
Psychic Dark 13 54
Normal Rock 12 54
Fire Electric 27 53
Fighting Fairy 26 53
Water Bug 22 53
Fire Psychic 20 53
Fire Dark 19 53
Dragon Dark 16 53
Flying Steel 13 53
Flying Psychic 9 53
Water Ice 27 52
Water Electric 26 52
Ice Dark 23 52
Electric Rock 20 52
Normal Ice 18 52
Poison Flying 11 52
Normal Flying 7 52
Ice Fairy 22 51
Electric Grass 20 51
Ice Dragon 19 51
Fighting Steel 19 51
Grass Dark 18 51
Psychic Bug 16 51
Dragon Steel 15 51
Ghost Ghost 7 51
Normal Steel 6 51
Fire Ice 30 50
Water Ground 24 50
Fire Ground 23 50
Ice Psychic 23 50
Water Grass 21 50
Ice Poison 21 50
Psychic Fairy 20 50
Water Steel 18 50
Psychic Dragon 17 50
Dragon Fairy 16 50
Bug Dark 12 50
Poison Steel 8 50
Grass Ice 27 49
Fire Fighting 26 49
Water Fighting 25 49
Grass Dragon 22 49
Grass Psychic 19 49
Electric Poison 17 49
Grass Poison 16 49
Poison Rock 16 49
Normal Fairy 15 49
Poison Dragon 15 49
Psychic Steel 13 49
Poison Psychic 11 49
Normal Dragon 10 49
Normal Bug 9 49
Normal Psychic 7 49
Flying Flying 7 49
Fire Grass 26 48
Grass Ground 26 48
Ground Bug 23 48
Poison Fairy 19 48
Steel Fairy 19 48
Normal Grass 12 48
Rock Rock 12 48
Ice Bug 25 47
Fighting Ground 25 47
Fire Bug 23 47
Grass Fairy 24 46
Grass Fighting 22 46
Fire Steel 20 46
Bug Fairy 18 46
Bug Dragon 17 46
Poison Bug 14 46
Normal Poison 5 46
Fire Water 27 45
Ice Steel 22 45
Grass Steel 16 45
Dragon Dragon 10 45
Dark Dark 7 45
Normal Normal 0 45
Fairy Fairy 15 44
Ground Ground 15 43
Bug Steel 14 43
Fighting Bug 21 42
Psychic Psychic 7 41
Ice Ice 18 40
Grass Bug 17 39
Water Water 14 39
Electric Electric 14 39
Poison Poison 5 37
Fighting Fighting 16 35
Fire Fire 14 35
Steel Steel 6 34
Grass Grass 12 31
Bug Bug 9 30- Fighting-Ghost: The traditional one only walled by the non-existent Normal-Ghost.
- Ghost-Fairy: Resisted by only Pyroar I think.
- Ghost-Dragon: Wigglytuff is immune to both, while Bisharp resists both.
- Bug-Ghost: Despite horrible SE coverage (only 13), nothing common really resists both. Options include Pyroar, Wigglytuff, and any Normal-Flying bird.
Regarding Talonflame, you do have the common options of Rotom-W, Heatran, (Mega) Tyranitar, and Tyrantrum that resist both STABs. Even just in Gen VI OU, only Heatran is lost as a resist.
what does ice and ground not hit?
Rotom-W, Rotom-H. Off the top of my head.
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