Personally, I think in both of your arguments (the Blissey one and the Kyogre one) you're ignoring pretty big 101% counters to both 'mons in your nom: Primal Groudon and Mega Gengar. Regular Kyogre and all it's other sets provide a huge loss of momentum and a potential sweeping opportunity to every Primal Groudon ever and blablabla there isn't more to say.Nomming (regular) Kyogre from C to B.
Regular kyogre. It has potential to run lum, specs or some other niche set I suppose but it's real niche is scarf. Scarf Ogre is a powerful force in this meta, and definitely deserving of a rise to B imo.
First, let's compare it to the mons in the ranks. C rank consists of Electriceus, Deo-s, Drifblim, Forretress, Liepard, Mega Luke, Palkia, Mega Bro and Tyranitar. B rank consists of Aegi, Dialga, Espeon, Gliscor, Greninja, Regular Don (reg ogre and reg don together at last kek), 'tran, Mega Kanga, Lando-t and Mega-Mence.
Breaking that down, you can see clearly P-ogre is leagues above the other C mons. Electriceus and Mega Luke are literally trash and I can't think of 1 team I'd put any of them on viably. The others have minute uses such as drifblim on baton pass or mega bro on stall, but in general they are just pretty bad.
Looking at the B mons, they're all somewhat useful in their own ways, for example espeon as the ideal baton pass team finale, regular don as a rock lead that isnt weak to ground and can hold an item unlike pdon, etc. Non primal ogre fits in great here, because it does have a great niche. It is an incredibly fast and powerful special attacker.
Scarf Ogre can do a lot of things primal ogre can't. I'll start by saying what I think is the most viable set for it.
Pop (Kyogre) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Water Spout
- Thunder
- Ice Beam
- Origin Pulse/Sheer Cold/Scald/Surf
It looks pretty standard. Modest because there is nothing +spe outspeeds that matters. Water Spout, Thunder and Ice Beam are staples of it and can't really be replaced. Origin pulse is my preferred move, but if you don't have the balls for the miss then you can go for scald or surf. Another option is sheer cold, and while I don't like to gamble with hax it can be an all-or-nothing late game saving grace if you're backed up into a wall and losing. Up to you.
Some benefits scarf ogre has over primal: Outspeeds and OHKO's Xern, Mega Gengar, and a whole lot of other things. 50/50's with Ditto, which is quite useful but more importantly than that you can use it to gain momentum with ditto because you force them to thunder which in turn can be a free switch and you can gain momentum. Based 90 really isn't great, so a scarf patches that up. Allows Ice Beam to hit ray, although it doesn't ohko even after rocks it does put them at around 10% which is easy kill range. Opp also can't know it's scarf from team preview rather than primal, so they won't save their scarf checks and that can fuck them over.
I could write this post for another hour but tbh I think I covered everything. In general scarf ogre is on par with B mons and is quite useful in AG.
I'd argue eviolite chansey is C+/C and sashed blissey is D in AG actually. HunterStorm can tell you about that time I was facing an annoying as balls stall team in AG and had a +3/+3 megaray, and a sashed blissey with counter fed me my lunch. In general though it does have a niche in AG albeit a poor one. Eviolite chansey still walls a ton of special attackers, it's definitely C+/C material. It compliments gira-o and ferro quite well on stall.
Unless I'm missing something, I'm pretty sure Kyogre doesn't get Focus Blast.Ive seen blissey being used before and I dont really see what it does although its a special wall its just set-up bait for a ton of mons. blissey cant touch alot of viable mons in this metagame and because this metagame has so much offense blissey is somewhat passive in AG. Chansey is just better, it always has been it walls better, its still set up bait for alot of mons mind you but it does the job overall better because of the increased bulk its that simple.
Seconding Kyogre to B
As for Kyogre I agree with him on the promotion most of the C-ranked mons are there just because they can be effective with a huge amount of support or work on one style and I don't see that in Kyogre he is sorta over shadowed (people dont give ogre too much of a chance because the advantage to an extra 100 BST provides some opportunity) by his primal form but they do different things. Not only that but it takes people really offguard. If Pdon is gone or not present on the team scarf kyogre gets a nice opportunity to sweep later in the game (assuming klefki is also weakened/gone) its really hard to stop after those two conditions have been met because scarfers are somewhat rare and Kyogre hits a really nice speed tier with scarf allowing it to outspeed most everything in the AG tier (exluding other scarfers and Deo-S).
252 Atk Life Orb Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kyogre: 175-208 (51.1 - 60.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Kyogre Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Arceus: 272-322 (71.3 - 84.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
It has a small amount of trouble dealing with arceus as it is a roll to kill plus focus blast is sort of a forced on move that isnt reliable but for the most part it has much more advantages than flaws and deserves a spot in B range.
Just wanted to point out that Origin Pulse actually does more (2.25x from STAB+Rain compared to 2x from SE):Ive seen blissey being used before and I dont really see what it does although its a special wall its just set-up bait for a ton of mons. blissey cant touch alot of viable mons in this metagame and because this metagame has so much offense blissey is somewhat passive in AG. Chansey is just better, it always has been it walls better, its still set up bait for alot of mons mind you but it does the job overall better because of the increased bulk its that simple.
Seconding Kyogre to B
As for Kyogre I agree with him on the promotion most of the C-ranked mons are there just because they can be effective with a huge amount of support or work on one style and I don't see that in Kyogre he is sorta over shadowed (people dont give ogre too much of a chance because the advantage to an extra 100 BST provides some opportunity) by his primal form but they do different things. Not only that but it takes people really offguard. If Pdon is gone or not present on the team scarf kyogre gets a nice opportunity to sweep later in the game (assuming klefki is also weakened/gone) its really hard to stop after those two conditions have been met because scarfers are somewhat rare and Kyogre hits a really nice speed tier with scarf allowing it to outspeed most everything in the AG tier (exluding other scarfers and Deo-S).
252 Atk Life Orb Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kyogre: 175-208 (51.1 - 60.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
It has a small amount of trouble dealing with arceus as it is a roll to kill plus focus blast is sort of a forced on move that isnt reliable but for the most part it has much more advantages than flaws and deserves a spot in B range.
EDIT:Thanks Trickster for catching my mistake lol idk how I got that ogre got focus blast. I stayed up too long studying for precalc test ;-;
I understand that Chansey has more bulk, but Blissey is made COMPLETELY dead weight if the opponent has a Mega Gengar. Granted, Mega Gengar is uncommon, but it's still a big risk. You also ignore the fact that Blissey can use Ice Beam and Flamethrower to damage some Pokemon that would otherwise wall it, while Chansey cannot due to its unusable special attack.Ive seen blissey being used before and I dont really see what it does although its a special wall its just set-up bait for a ton of mons. blissey cant touch alot of viable mons in this metagame and because this metagame has so much offense blissey is somewhat passive in AG. Chansey is just better, it always has been it walls better, its still set up bait for alot of mons mind you but it does the job overall better because of the increased bulk its that simple.
Seconding Kyogre to B
As for Kyogre I agree with him on the promotion most of the C-ranked mons are there just because they can be effective with a huge amount of support or work on one style and I don't see that in Kyogre he is sorta over shadowed (people dont give ogre too much of a chance because the advantage to an extra 100 BST provides some opportunity) by his primal form but they do different things. Not only that but it takes people really offguard. If Pdon is gone or not present on the team scarf kyogre gets a nice opportunity to sweep later in the game (assuming klefki is also weakened/gone) its really hard to stop after those two conditions have been met because scarfers are somewhat rare and Kyogre hits a really nice speed tier with scarf allowing it to outspeed most everything in the AG tier (exluding other scarfers and Deo-S).
252 Atk Life Orb Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kyogre: 175-208 (51.1 - 60.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
It has a small amount of trouble dealing with arceus as it is a roll to kill plus focus blast is sort of a forced on move that isnt reliable but for the most part it has much more advantages than flaws and deserves a spot in B range.
EDIT:Thanks Trickster for catching my mistake lol idk how I got that ogre got focus blast. I stayed up too long studying for precalc test ;-;
do it anyways, you cant do any worseomfg if zekrom gets promoted im going to attack the meta with a team of six of those sexy, handsome, beasts.
Mega Gengar is almost unseen nowadays in high ladder AG, and it actually does lose to scarf ogre so I'm not sure what you're talking about. I mentioned primal groudon in my nomination as well. And yes, I am nominating it on the basis of ONE set. Just one. A mon does NOT need to be well-versed to get a spot in B, that's the dumbest thing I've heard in a while. Smeargle and the latis are in A- and they only have 1 viable set really. Like kyogre scarfed, they can change up some moves but they really only can run 1 set. What multiple sets do gliscor, kangashkan-mega, lando-t or espeon run? They're all in B.Personally, I think in both of your arguments (the Blissey one and the Kyogre one) you're ignoring pretty big 101% counters to both 'mons in your nom: Primal Groudon and Mega Gengar. Regular Kyogre and all it's other sets provide a huge loss of momentum and a potential sweeping opportunity to every Primal Groudon ever and blablabla there isn't more to say.
Also, you're nominating it on the basis of ONE set. Just one? Doesn't a mon need to be, say, well-versed, to get a spot in B?
I don't understand why you would drop blissey and rise chansey; in an outright special walling case, blissey would probably win; losing entirely to one semi-common mon in the meta is not really good. In addition, you think blissey would be ranked in D on the basis of a very niche set (and ignoring it's main set). Said niche set provides a setup opportunity for all subbing mons and is nigh-useless if you are facing a support mon or a stall team.
edit: Yeah, I suppose Arceus is a hard check to Kyogre.
Yeah lol, focus blast is a no-no on ogre.Ive seen blissey being used before and I dont really see what it does although its a special wall its just set-up bait for a ton of mons. blissey cant touch alot of viable mons in this metagame and because this metagame has so much offense blissey is somewhat passive in AG. Chansey is just better, it always has been it walls better, its still set up bait for alot of mons mind you but it does the job overall better because of the increased bulk its that simple.
Seconding Kyogre to B
As for Kyogre I agree with him on the promotion most of the C-ranked mons are there just because they can be effective with a huge amount of support or work on one style and I don't see that in Kyogre he is sorta over shadowed (people dont give ogre too much of a chance because the advantage to an extra 100 BST provides some opportunity) by his primal form but they do different things. Not only that but it takes people really offguard. If Pdon is gone or not present on the team scarf kyogre gets a nice opportunity to sweep later in the game (assuming klefki is also weakened/gone) its really hard to stop after those two conditions have been met because scarfers are somewhat rare and Kyogre hits a really nice speed tier with scarf allowing it to outspeed most everything in the AG tier (exluding other scarfers and Deo-S).
252 Atk Life Orb Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kyogre: 175-208 (51.1 - 60.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
It has a small amount of trouble dealing with arceus as it is a roll to kill plus focus blast is sort of a forced on move that isnt reliable but for the most part it has much more advantages than flaws and deserves a spot in B range.
EDIT:Thanks Trickster for catching my mistake lol idk how I got that ogre got focus blast. I stayed up too long studying for precalc test ;-;
^ this is what I was going to say anyways.Just wanted to point out that Origin Pulse actually does more (2.25x from STAB+Rain compared to 2x from SE):
252+ SpA Kyogre Origin Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Arceus in Rain: 282-333 (74 - 87.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I do agree with the rest of the post however and think Kyogre fits well in B Rank.
Blissey will do almost nothing with ice beam or flamethrower to anything at all, they're almost irrelvant. I have no idea why you would even use them. Blissey has 75 Spa, that isn't going to hit anything at all that walls it uninvested or even invested, not that blissey can invest into it anyways. Link a single good team in any meta that has a blissey with flamethrower or ice beam please.I understand that Chansey has more bulk, but Blissey is made COMPLETELY dead weight if the opponent has a Mega Gengar. Granted, Mega Gengar is uncommon, but it's still a big risk. You also ignore the fact that Blissey can use Ice Beam and Flamethrower to damage some Pokemon that would otherwise wall it, while Chansey cannot due to its unusable special attack.
??? I mentioned Blissey and Chansey for Mega Gengar, not Kyogre?do it anyways, you cant do any worse
Mega Gengar is almost unseen nowadays in high ladder AG, and it actually does lose to scarf ogre so I'm not sure what you're talking about. I mentioned primal groudon in my nomination as well. And yes, I am nominating it on the basis of ONE set. Just one. A mon does NOT need to be well-versed to get a spot in B, that's the dumbest thing I've heard in a while. Smeargle and the latis are in A- and they only have 1 viable set really. Like kyogre scarfed, they can change up some moves but they really only can run 1 set. What multiple sets do gliscor, kangashkan-mega, lando-t or espeon run? They're all in B.
Blissey would not win in an "outright special walling case", chansey has higher special defenses as well with eviolity, flat out. That argument doesn't even make sense, the numbers are literally out in the open. In what way is blissey not almost directly outclassed by chansey?
Yeah lol, focus blast is a no-no on ogre.
^ this is what I was going to say anyways.
Blissey will do almost nothing with ice beam or flamethrower to anything at all, they're almost irrelvant. I have no idea why you would even use them. Blissey has 75 Spa, that isn't going to hit anything at all that walls it uninvested or even invested, not that blissey can invest into it anyways. Link a single good team in any meta that has a blissey with flamethrower or ice beam please.
Mega Gengar is more than uncommon; I've maybe matched it once high ladder since the ladder reset, once. I'm sure other good AG players can back this up.
Tl;dr: Chansey has more bulk, is walled by the same things, and has more utility in general. There is no reason to run blissey short of a super niche focus sash countercoat set or something.
I agree with you, but I don't like how you blatantly assume I said that Flamethrower and Ice Beam Blisseys can beat Mega Gengar or whatever crap. I never said that, I just said that Blissey is NOT made a liability by Mega Gengar.I'm reading all of these posts and I'm thinking,
"What the hell does Blissey have over Chansey to be 2 subranks higher?"
Some people say that it can actually beat the things that it is countered by, like Mega Gengar. No, that's bs. Who the hell puts Flamethrower and/or Ice beam on Blissey. No one. I've played over 500 games of AG, I make multiple accounts. xP And I haven't seen one Blissey or remember one Blissey which has an attacking move other than Seismic Toss.
Blissey and Chansey can't beat Mega Gengar. But vice versa! (Unless of course it brings Perish Song, but that's not as common)
Now I'm thinking, OH! Blissey can carry Shed Shell to escape MegaG. BUT IS THAT SERIOUSLY THE ONLY NICHE BLISSEY HAS OVER CHANSEY?
Chansey is so much more flipping bulkier.
When the team preview is on, and I see Chansey, I'm like Crap, that's a problem.
When I see Blissey, I laugh and don't even prepare for it.
Like honestly, Mega Gengar isn't common anymore. Like not at all, it's Perish Song set is even less common now.... Chansey should be higher or the same rank as Blissey.
Also um, Kyogre should still raise to B-/B. There's nothing making it not lmao. PrimalG is a counter but compared to the crappy rank it's in right now, what's holding it back?
Can we just end this silly argument and not rank both of them?I agree with you, but I don't like how you blatantly assume I said that Flamethrower and Ice Beam Blisseys can beat Mega Gengar or whatever crap. I never said that, I just said that Blissey is NOT made a liability by Mega Gengar.
Neither do I think that you should laugh off Blissey, as everyone in this thread basically agrees that Blissey and Chansey do the same things, it's just a case of which one is BETTER.
not hard walled, HARD COUNTERED; one of the main reasons why this "silly argument" started in the first place.Can we just end this silly argument and not rank both of them?
I mean Chansey is a great special wall, but the fact of the matter is there are better special walls out there that don't get hard walled by Mega Gengar (such as Lugia and Ho-Oh). Although, they are not as bulky, they offer a much more diverse array of attacks and abilities that prevent most special attacking threats.
In fact, if I were to run Shed Shell, I would run it on a Chansey to confuse the opponent. This would involve them sending out their Mega Gengar on the Chansey expecting to trap it. I find people doing the same thing in the Balanced Hackmons metagame, using different items on Imposter Chansey just to confuse the opponent.
If we rank one of them, it should be Chansey.Any disagreements, feel free to reply.
EDIT:
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Chansey: 266-316 (41.4 - 49.2%) -- 82.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
I state again, let's not rank them both.
Did you, or didn't you, actually read the post? In case you don't realise, "end this silly argument" means "end this silly argument". There are better, more versatle walls out there-Chansey just doesn't cut the cheese.not hard walled, HARD COUNTERED; one of the main reasons why this "silly argument" started in the first place.
252+ SpA Primal Kyogre Origin Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Zekrom in Heavy Rain: 210-248 (61.5 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKOMy thoughts
Yveltal should go up. Yes it's walled by Fairy-types, but it checks so much of the physical meta, including offensive Arceus variants (such as Normal, Ghost, Ground, Poison, Steel), Primal Groudon, Ho-Oh, and Mega Rayquaza, all of which are prevalent, especially higher ladder. It can also drop a Toxic on most mons, such as Giratina, Lati@s, Lugia, or Kyogre if you predict a switch, before going to your counter.
Deoxys-Attack I can see moving up also. It has excellent speed (outspeeding speedsters like Darkrai, Mewtwo and both of its Megas, Arceus, and Mega Rayquaza) and awesome dual attacking stats. One of the best checks to ScarfOgre (needs Sash though) and can outspeed the Extreme Speeds of Arceus and Mega Rayquaza (unboosted). I've used it, and it's great.
Kyogre yes this is literally S+++ rank material, cteams all of my teams... In all seriousness it's a great mon, and Scarf is really handy for outspeeding stuff like non-ESpeed Arceus formes, unboosted Xerneas, it's Primal forme, Darkrai, Mega Mewtwo Y, etc. and then bopping them with a powerful Water Spout. Has good coverage, and can even fish for a Sheer Cold hit on Primal Groudon (my PDon has fallen to that many times ;~;)
MegaKhan Agree, not really that good, especially compared to the other viable Megas in the tier. Also walled by Yveltal.
Zekrom haven't seen this very often, but its a good Kyogre counter and pretty powerful wallbreaker. It can move up to B
Rayquza Not really sure about this, it's Mega just seems a lot better :/ I suppose it lets you run Mega Diancie or Mega Mewtwo Y as well, but I'm not sure that's good enough for a raise. C is still pretty low though so I'm alright with this.
Lol, I'm sorry for treating you like an idiot, I didn't mean it like that, I was just in a bad mood.252+ SpA Primal Kyogre Origin Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Zekrom in Heavy Rain: 210-248 (61.5 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Primal Kyogre Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Zekrom: 306-362 (89.7 - 106.1%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
Zekrom is a good check still though!
As for Deoxys-A, it's really no biggie that you can hit them with E-Speed first, considering that both of them are bulky enough to take any attack (in the case of Mega Ray it's OHKO'd more than half the time) and both can setup on an predicted E-Speed.
Im sorry for wasting ppl's time on the Kyogre thing. also PLEASE STOP TREATING ME LIKE AN IDIOT, I GET IT >_< TheHungrySage, I was just CORRECTING Zangooser.
OK, I am going to make a nom. This seems a little bit radical, but I think Mega Salamence should move up a notch. I know it's severely outclassed by Mega Ray and has gigantic opportunity cost considering all the great Megas, but the defensive and defensive setup sets are really bulky with Intimidate and can setup on many things that it checks e.g. P-don and Arceus (for reference it takes 40% max from offensive P-don's Stone Edge!). In addition, one more reason is that Mega Salamence is a better 'mon compared to a similarly ranked mon, Landorus-T. It has better physical bulk with Intimidate, has recovery, and can abuse its setup abilities.
HP water to check Numel? Lol, why run a move to counter one mon that is completely worthless?Numel is bad dont use it. Its niche is really tiny. There are very few numels high/mid ladder.
It is a ground type that klefki cant really touch (Hp water is really unviable and a waste of a moveslot)
sorry that this is short but eh there isnt too much to say about numel.
HP water is often used by full Klefki teams to stop Numel, otherwise it's definitely a waste of a moveslot. I can see why one would use HP water on a Klefki, because they'll be seeing a lot of Numels at where they are on the ladder.Numel runs Own Tempo in AG, not Oblivious. It's basically the ultimate klefki check (immune to swagger & t wave), but has no other niche in AG.
HP water to check Numel? Lol, why run a move to counter one mon that is completely worthless?
Numel's niche isn't Oblivious... it's Simple. With StockPile, after 3 Stockpiles it reaches 4x on both defenses and combined with Eviolite, it's super bulky.Forgive me if I'm late, but what benefit does Numel have over other oblivious pokemon? Like Wailord?