Zero Sum Meta

[MZ]

Approved by Eevee General, waiting on art from a guy

Welcome to the Zero Sum Metagame! This is simply OU with a twist: all damage you take your opponent also recovers and all health your opponent recovers you take. Put simply, I lose 50% you heal 50%, I heal 50% you lose 50%.

Banlist:
Ubers
Nothing else yet

More details:
Damage includes basic attacks, entry hazards, status, Leech Seed, and trapping moves like Infestation.
The health is calculated by percentages rather than individual hit points
Recovery moves can damage the opponent
You cannot get over 100% Health
The health always goes to the Pokemon that's currently out, if my Skarmory set up Stealth Rock but Talonflame is on the field, the health from Stealth Rock goes to Talonflame
In the case of healing moves like Giga Drain or Draining Kiss, health recovered is 50/75% of the damage as normal plus the same HP as you dealt
Recoil from moves like Flare Blitz, as well as Life Orb, is healed back by your opponent
Heal Block does prevent the extra recovery
Regenerator will not damage the opponent

Possible new strats:

+2 priority+recovery+setup sounds great

Even more recovery from healing moves and Leech Seed

Entry hazards got a lot better and weaknesses got hit hard, we'll see if that's enough to nerf priority recovering Brave Birds

This meta is coded and waiting to be implemented

 

[MZ]

reserved

 

[MZ]

reserved just in case I need another, you can now do the do

 

[Alicer]

Just a quick question when using recoil moves,life orb, ect. Would you heal before or after recoil?

Also Garchomp and Ferro heal 28% of their hp back when hit by a physical move if they have rocky helmet
Might see alot of special attackers because of this

Actually mabye not, I see alot of setup in this meta since you want to ohko everything or eles it will heal it back

 

[MZ]

Just a quick question when using recoil moves,life orb, ect. Would you heal before or after recoil?

Also Garchomp and Ferro heal 28% of their hp back when hit by a physical move if they have rocky helmet
Might see alot of special attackers because of this

Actually mabye not, I see alot of setup in this meta since you want to ohko everything or eles it will heal it back

Any damage you take from recoil/LO/etc is healed back by your opponent, forgot to add that to the OP. Didn't think about the second part, but I think healing goes after recoil from stuff since recoil generally goes before things.

 

[Asumi]

I'm so confused at the description and example.


So, basically, every damage you deal heals you for the same HP percentage you dealt to your target?
Will using Recovery moves damage the opponent for 50%? (I know it shouldn't, but clarify this point.)
Does recoil (Life Orb and recoil moves) heal your opponent? Will crashing HJK heal your opponent for 50%? Postjacked.



This meta looks great for Sturdy mons.
Put everything in offense. As long as you deal enough damage to top you off, it's never gonna die.

Also, Archeops.

 

[MZ]

So, basically, every damage you deal heals you for the same HP percentage you dealt to your target?
Will using Recovery moves damage the opponent for 50%? (I know it shouldn't, but clarify this point.)

Yes and no. Another thing I had in the draft and forgot in the OP because I'm stupid. That would be really unbalanced if Soft-boiled and Super Fang merged into one so not doing that.
edit @ below: yes, theoretically they would. But that'd be stupid, and it's more of an "I'm drawing the line because damaging Roost is dumb". The meta is still in theorymon stage, but I don't want to leave in a major mechanic that's broken on paper to screw it up later (STABmons says hi)

 

[Kit Kasai]

I'm so confused at the description and example.


So, basically, every damage you deal heals you for the same HP percentage you dealt to your target?
Will using Recovery moves damage the opponent for 50%? (I know it shouldn't, but clarify this point.)
Does recoil (Life Orb and recoil moves) heal your opponent? Will crashing HJK heal your opponent for 50%? Postjacked.



This meta looks great for Sturdy mons.
Put everything in offense. As long as you deal enough damage to top you off, it's never gonna die.

Also, Archeops.

From what I read, using recovery WILL damage opponents, but only by percentage gained. If you're at full hp and you use recover, the opponent is unaffected.

Edit nvm

 

[Asumi]

More things:

1. Liquid Ooze. How does it work here?

2. Will Heal Block prevent the extra recovery in this meta?

 

[MZ]

More things:

1. Liquid Ooze. How does it work here?

2. Will Heal Block prevent the extra recovery in this meta?

For Liquid Ooze, let's say it's Venusaur Giga Drain on Tentacruel. Venu does damage then takes liquid ooze damage then heals off based on the damage it did to tentacruel then tentacruel heals based on the damage liquid ooze does to venusar.
Heal Block I actually did not think about prior to this. I'm thinking yes, it should prevent the extra healing. It's still a passive and somewhat rare move and generally fits in with the mechanic. Plus Klefki has to be stupid somehow.

 

[zezleijon]

Sawk @ Choice Scarf
Sturdy
EVs: 252 atk/ 252 spe
- Close Combat
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Knock Off/Poison Jab

I think this is a pretty sweet set, as it has the incredible STAB of Close Combat, EdgeQuake coverage, and either Knock Off for utility or Poison Jab to handle any Fairy type.

 

[Asumi]

I was thinking if Liquid Ooze changed the healing mechanic into damage, but then I realized it would be broken as hell. XD

• Dragonite — your Multiscale is pretty much always up
• Hippowdon/Tyranitar — you get a pseudo-Leftovers in the form of Sandstorm damaging the opponent (and healing you)
• Abomasnow/Aurorus — Hail version
  
• Partial-trapping moves like Infestation are now the bread-and-butter of stall, letting you deal damage and get massive recovery.
• Endeavor is going to be lovely. :P
• Pain Split heals you for double the amount.

 

[Akumeoy]

Welp, time to run Unaware and Prankster status moves, because fuckall else is going to stop setup sweepers in this meta. Except it's just Unaware, because sweepers can afford to run Substitute a lot more easily now. And I guess phazing, but that doesn't help with them coming back in later.

Stall will still probably be the best thing in the meta, for a few reasons.
1) They can run Unaware, as described already.
2) It's the best playstyle to use Mega Sableye, which bounces back hazards (which are a lot better here).
3) Status + Protect is pretty great, and stall can afford to run it on multiple mons. Likewise, other forms of passive damage used by stall get huge buffs too.
4) Stall can afford to attack more often, because it doesn't entail giving up as much recovery as it might otherwise.
5) Life Orb, a popular item for offense, is only a boon when 30% of the damage dealt by an attack is greater than 10% of the opponent's HP -- that is, it has to do >33% to the opponent. Probably doable against offense, not as guaranteed against stall.

On the flip side, recoil moves are a bit easier to justify running now. If you have higher max HP than your opponent, you should be outdamaging what you'd expect from the best non-recoil move of that type. I think. Regardless, if the opponent faints, they can't heal off your recoil, so it's moot. And volt-turn is even better, because slow pivoting doesn't mean losing an opportunity to recover. And lastly, it gets Mega Diancie, the other good Magic Bounce user; it's a lot better against stall now, because they can't just wear it down with damage.

 

[lepton]

Hazards seem really op in this meta

 

[I like donkeys]

How does dragon rage/sonic boom work in this meta?

 

[hausdog]

I would imagine where it says the percent of HP they lost, the game would try to convert that to an integer and give you back that many HP. So if my Gyarados uses dragon rage against your Chansey, which loses, like, 7.5% of her HP or whatever, the game would give me back 7.5% of like 300 or something which would work out to 22.5 which is 22?

 

[MZ]

ok so after talking with tehy, I realized it's pretty stupid to just ban healing moves to start. There's clear drawbacks like being stuck at doing a set amount of health and only working if you're taking over 50%, and limiting them takes away from a viable strategy before this meta even gets going. This shouldn't really make a difference to the meta anyway as that won't exist until this is coded anyway. If it gets out of hand later, then it can be dealt with. Tagging AWailOfATail as well since he said he was coding it, and I'll update the OP.

 

[EV]

Megazard I'm confused. Are you saying healing moves will deal damage to the opponent while you heal?

 

[MZ]

Megazard I'm confused. Are you saying healing moves will deal damage to the opponent while you heal?

Yes, just the reciprocal of attacking moves doing damage. I had originally planned to not include that but a lot of people asked why and I realized there wasn't sufficient reason.
edit: updated the OP, hopefully it's now less confusing/contradictory

 

[EV]

The premise of the meta states
"This is simply OU with a twist: all damage you take your opponent also recovers and vice versa, similar to a real zero sum game where what's good for you is inversely bad for your opponent and vice versa."

And

"Damage includes basic attacks, entry hazards, status, Leech Seed, and trapping moves like Infestation."

So are you changing the premise now?

 

[MZ]

The premise of the meta states
"This is simply OU with a twist: all damage you take your opponent also recovers and vice versa, similar to a real zero sum game where what's good for you is inversely bad for your opponent and vice versa."

And

"Damage includes basic attacks, entry hazards, status, Leech Seed, and trapping moves like Infestation."

So are you changing the premise now?

If you'd like me to avoid it then I can switch it back, but the original premise was just supposed to be what I edited into the OP now, that hit points have the opposite effect on your opponent. I only simplified it to damage because without actually play testing or anything I theorymonned healing recovery moves as more OP than, say, recovering high jump kick from a mega medicham. That was when I got a lot of people telling me it was dumb and they'd prefer healing recovery moves, which I couldn't find sufficient reason not to include.
edit: Because I still think I was making it too complicated, this is what I wanted: I lose 50% you heal 50%, I heal 50% you lose 50%. Then I somehow figured that the second half of that would be unfair, thus confusing everybody, including myself, about what the meta was supposed to be

 

[Kit Kasai]

The premise of the meta states
"This is simply OU with a twist: all damage you take your opponent also recovers and vice versa, similar to a real zero sum game where what's good for you is inversely bad for your opponent and vice versa."

And

"Damage includes basic attacks, entry hazards, status, Leech Seed, and trapping moves like Infestation."

So are you changing the premise now?

Personally I interpreted the "vice versa" to mean healing deals damage, I thought that's what was intended all along. That's what the spirit of the meta is anyways, "zero sum"

 

[Asumi]

If you turn Heal into Damage, there's a major problem: infinite loops.


If you damage the opponent, you get healed. If you get healed, the opponent takes damage. If the opponent takes damage, you get healed. Ad infinitum until the opponent dies.
And after you exclude the triggered healing from being converted to damage, there are still the draining moves to take into account (they do the same loop).
Pain Split would do this as well.


Clarifying this takes top priority, because it would make the metagame unplayable.

Probably something like this (just a sample, you can add/remove as you wish) —

Damage on opponent → healing for you:

• Direct damage (damage from attacks)
• Damage from volatile status (seeding, self-damage from confusion, Nightmare, Ghost Curse, partial-trapping)
• Damage from non-volatile status (Poison, Burn)
  
• Recoil taken by opponent
  
• Weather damage (Sandstorm, Hail)
• Opponent setting up a Substitute (25% heal for you)
• Self-damaging moves (Ghost Curse, Belly Drum)

Healing for you → damage on opponent:

• Basic recovery (Recover, Soft-boiled, Wish, etc)
• Healing Wish and Lunar Dance damages the opponent for the % HP it healed the Pokemon sent out
• Lingering recovery (Leftovers, Rain Dish, Aqua Ring, Ingrain)
• Ability recovery (Water Absorb, Volt Absorb)
• Rest
• Berries

What this list means:

• Heal from draining moves will NOT damage the opponent.
• Leech Seed will heal you for more, but will NOT deal extra damage to the opponent.
• The triggered healing of the metagame will NOT damage the opponent.
• The damage you deal from healing moves/items will NOT heal you.

------

My other thoughts:
Recovery doing damage to the opponent will be a total balance disaster. Leftovers, Rest and Poison Heal to name a few. Stall already has the great advantage of having higher HP, which means damaging the opponent a little will heal for a huge amount. If recovery does damage, the only offensive team worth using is Setup sweeping — because stall will destroy anything that can't 2HKO them just by spamming recovery moves.

As much as I'd like to propose halved healing→damage conversion, it would overcomplicate things. I think you should just ditch the whole idea of healing→damage and avoid both the infinite loop and balance issues with stall.

 

[Kit Kasai]

If you turn Heal into Damage, there's a major problem: infinite loops.


If you damage the opponent, you get healed. If you get healed, the opponent takes damage. If the opponent takes damage, you get healed. Ad infinitum until the opponent dies.
And after you exclude the triggered healing from being converted to damage, there are still the draining moves to take into account (they do the same loop).
Pain Split would do this as well.


Clarifying this takes top priority, because it would make the metagame unplayable.

Probably something like this (just a sample, you can add/remove as you wish) —

Damage on opponent → healing for you:

• Direct damage (damage from attacks)
• Damage from volatile status (seeding, self-damage from confusion, Nightmare, Ghost Curse, partial-trapping)
• Damage from non-volatile status (Poison, Burn)
  
• Recoil taken by opponent
  
• Weather damage (Sandstorm, Hail)
• Opponent setting up a Substitute (25% heal for you)
• Self-damaging moves (Ghost Curse, Belly Drum)

Healing for you → damage on opponent:

• Basic recovery (Recover, Soft-boiled, Wish, etc)
• Healing Wish and Lunar Dance damages the opponent for the % HP it healed the Pokemon sent out
• Lingering recovery (Leftovers, Rain Dish, Aqua Ring, Ingrain)
• Ability recovery (Water Absorb, Volt Absorb)
• Rest
• Berries

What this list means:

• Heal from draining moves will NOT damage the opponent.
• Leech Seed will heal you for more, but will NOT deal extra damage to the opponent.
• The triggered healing of the metagame will NOT damage the opponent.
• The damage you deal from healing moves/items will NOT heal you.

------

My other thoughts:
Recovery doing damage to the opponent will be a total balance disaster. Leftovers, Rest and Poison Heal to name a few. Stall already has the great advantage of having higher HP, which means damaging the opponent a little will heal for a huge amount. If recovery does damage, the only offensive team worth using is Setup sweeping — because stall will destroy anything that can't 2HKO them just by spamming recovery moves.

As much as I'd like to propose halved healing→damage conversion, it would overcomplicate things. I think you should just ditch the whole idea of healing→damage and avoid both the infinite loop and balance issues with stall.

That's not an infinite loop. It's not actually possible to get an infinite loop in battle (any method is banned).

You can just exclude the recoil from struggle to prevent any form of infinite loop in this meta.

 

[MZ]

If you turn Heal into Damage, there's a major problem: infinite loops.


If you damage the opponent, you get healed. If you get healed, the opponent takes damage. If the opponent takes damage, you get healed. Ad infinitum until the opponent dies.
And after you exclude the triggered healing from being converted to damage, there are still the draining moves to take into account (they do the same loop).
Pain Split would do this as well.


Clarifying this takes top priority, because it would make the metagame unplayable.

Probably something like this (just a sample, you can add/remove as you wish) —

Damage on opponent → healing for you:

• Direct damage (damage from attacks)
• Damage from volatile status (seeding, self-damage from confusion, Nightmare, Ghost Curse, partial-trapping)
• Damage from non-volatile status (Poison, Burn)
  
• Recoil taken by opponent
  
• Weather damage (Sandstorm, Hail)
• Opponent setting up a Substitute (25% heal for you)
• Self-damaging moves (Ghost Curse, Belly Drum)

Healing for you → damage on opponent:

• Basic recovery (Recover, Soft-boiled, Wish, etc)
• Healing Wish and Lunar Dance damages the opponent for the % HP it healed the Pokemon sent out
• Lingering recovery (Leftovers, Rain Dish, Aqua Ring, Ingrain)
• Ability recovery (Water Absorb, Volt Absorb)
• Rest
• Berries

What this list means:

• Heal from draining moves will NOT damage the opponent.
• Leech Seed will heal you for more, but will NOT deal extra damage to the opponent.
• The triggered healing of the metagame will NOT damage the opponent.
• The damage you deal from healing moves/items will NOT heal you.

------

My other thoughts:
Recovery doing damage to the opponent will be a total balance disaster. Leftovers, Rest and Poison Heal to name a few. Stall already has the great advantage of having higher HP, which means damaging the opponent a little will heal for a huge amount. If recovery does damage, the only offensive team worth using is Setup sweeping — because stall will destroy anything that can't 2HKO them just by spamming recovery moves.

As much as I'd like to propose halved healing→damage conversion, it would overcomplicate things. I think you should just ditch the whole idea of healing→damage and avoid both the infinite loop and balance issues with stall.

Ye, I just don't see it turning into infinite loops thanks to a few factors. Spamming recovery leaves you open to being set up on as it's passive and abusable as long as you're not really low. Since the health is just taken as damage, it wouldn't even break a sub which could leave you open in the long run. You could just get set up on like always with stall if you're too passive. Not to mention some of the bulkiest things (mega venu/bro/sable, chansey) that would be prime offenders with reliable recovery don't have lefties to stack. What you're proposing was the initial concept, but I'm not sure that it's broken on paper.