Yanmega (Full Revamp + Update) +

[Heysup]

Sorry I dodn't have time to update; been busy lately. As jrrrrr said, there's no need for a full-blown debate here. I finally did some calcs to compare LO and SubPetaya, and here they are.

These calcs deal with the Pokemon that might want to switch into Yanmega (barring Chansey, who cannot be dealt with without Reversal):

SubPetaya HP Ground vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Registeel - 37.36% - 43.96% (clean 3HKO)
LO HP Ground vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Registeel - 32.69% - 38.46% (negligible difference)
SubPetaya HP Ground vs. 252 HP / 220 SpD Regirock - 47.80% - 56.32% (high 2HKO chance)
LO HP Ground vs. 252 HP / 220 SpD Regirock - 41.76% - 49.18% (falls just short of a 2HKO)
SubPetaya HP Ground vs. max HP / max SpD Steelix - 62.43% - 73.45% (easy win)
LO HP Ground vs. max HP / max SpD Steelix - 54.52% - 64.12% (no real difference)


SubPetaya Air Slash vs. 168 HP Crobat - 64.02% - 75.35% (slight chance of OHKO w/ Stealth Rock damage)
LO Air Slash vs. 168 HP Crobat - 55.81% - 65.72% (significant difference)
SubPetaya Air Slash vs. 4 HP Crobat - 72.44% - 85.26% (very high chance of OHKO w/ Stealth Rock damage)
LO Air Slash vs. 4 HP Crobat - 63.14% - 74.36% (just misses the OHKO mark)

Both sets have their merit. SubPetaya edges out LO when it comes to Crobat, and manages to beat out Regirock as well. However, this is at the price of multiple turns of setup. The LO set can come in and hit hard right off the bat; while missing out on a few KOs. However, their playstyle is very different and, thus, they both deserve their own sets.

I'll probably change the name to Substitute, but write the other items in a different paragraph, not slash them in.

I agree with all of your post, except the merit of LO Air Slash is not applicable, as the primary set uses Psychic, which is:

LO Psychic vs Crobat: 97.33% - 114.54%

So the LO Yanmega has an advantage over the SubPetaya one pertaining to Crobat, not vice versa as you suggest.

However, the LO variant cannot 2HKO Registeel most of the time with HP Ground after Spikes + SR, among other things. You should have mentioned that ^_^. The SubPetaya set still has various advantages damage wise.


And I agree with your plan as well.

EDIT:

LO should have Psychic, which OHKOs Crobat with Modest LO no matter what. Slash them in because they're viable and arguably better.

I just did the Modest LO Psychic vs 104 HP Crobat. Its 97.33% - 114.54%, so not "no matter what", but most of the time.

And, "them" could mean alot of things...can you clarify please before I argue the wrong thing lol?

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

LO should have Psychic, which OHKOs Crobat with Modest LO no matter what.

Slash Expert Belt and Leftovers in because they're viable and arguably better.

EDIT: If Substitute is such a big deal for Yanmega, why use a Petaya Berry on it when all that does is limit Yanmega's sweeping options? Substitute eases prediction a fuckton, letting you get SE hits a whole lot against stuff that comes in against you. As such, you want items that either increase damage without decreasing sturdiness (Expert Belt), or increase the number of Substitutes you can make (Leftovers).

 

[Heysup]

LO should have Psychic, which OHKOs Crobat with Modest LO no matter what.

Slash Expert Belt and Leftovers in because they're viable and arguably better.

EDIT: If Substitute is such a big deal for Yanmega, why use a Petaya Berry on it when all that does is limit Yanmega's sweeping options? Substitute eases prediction a fuckton, letting you get SE hits a whole lot against stuff that comes in against you. As such, you want items that either increase damage without decreasing sturdiness (Expert Belt), or increase the number of Substitutes you can make (Leftovers).

They are definitely worth mentioning, but I don't believe they are slash-worthy. They do not make Yanmega as dangerous of a late-game sweeper like Petaya does, especially with only 3 coverage moves (for Expert Belt at least). Leftovers makes it not-as-good at sweeping, even though it can Substitute more, I really dont think its worth the power loss. I have not personally used these sets in UU, but without the boost, Yanmega isnt that impressive attack-wise. I have used Yanmega without an Item before (being forced out after Petaya activates, or simply getting knock off'd), and its a lot more dificult to KO anything...obviously.

 

[twash]

Is this finished? If not, finish it up soon please.

 

[kd24]

in the counters section, add soundproof electrode, anything that is immune to bug buzz and resists air slash while ohkoing back with thunderbolt is a good counter in my book

(i totally forgot that it was immune to bug buzz until i finished my own analysis)

 

[Draco Zephyr]

KD24, I'll add that in, thanks. Yeah, this is finished.

 

[jrrrrrrr]

This analysis looks great, except for the Team Options paragraphs.

The only thing that works well with Yanmega is Rapid Spin Hitmontop and Claydol? Really? The Choice+Tinted Lens is the only set that has passable comments for team options. One sentence isn't really going to cut it. You should mention Fighting-types like Hitmontop, Blaziken, Limber Hitmonlee, as well as Steel-killers like Nidoking, etc. You could also mention strong Pursuit users to clear Chansey out of the way.

You should also mention Stealth Rock support, and how much that extra damage helps Yanmega against the likes of Moltres, Articuno, Crobat, and Altaria....all pokemon who have the SpDef to take a hit from Yanmega and OHKO back.

This analysis is close to being done, you just really need to add Team Options....that's the whole point of these Updates.

edit- damn you twash you stole my thunder.

 

[franky]

I always found Claydol and Hitmontop to die easily without a recovery move. I think mentioning a Wish-user with these Rapid Spinners can further prolong Yanmega's existance in the field.

 

[Draco Zephyr]

All queries updated. I did my best to bulk up Team Options as much as possible. I'm still working on the last set; after that, it should be done.

EDIT: The analysis is finished.

 

[franky]

I think Mantine deserves a mention on the counters section. It has a titanic base 140 SpD, can resist Reversal sets, resist its STAB Bug Buzz and is immune to HP Ground which is common on Yanmega. It is only hitting it by Air Slash and Psychic. Why use it as a counter? Well Yanmega packs 104 Def which Registeel has a hard time penetrating with Iron Head. Mantine can hit it harder on the special side where Yanmega is pretty exposed too Special attacks peaking at 54 Base SpD. You can OHKO back with HP Flying which is common for Mantine.

Modest Yanmega 252 SpA + Life Orb + Air Slash vs 252 HP / 252 SpD Mantine = 27.84% - 33.23%

Modest Yanmega 252 SpA + Choice Specs + Linted Lens + Bug Buzz vs 252 HP / 252 SpD = 38.32% - 45.21%


I can say it takes hits like a champ. Defenitley deserves a mention.

 

[Draco Zephyr]

Yanmega is the only usable Tinted Lens Pokemon? Really? Venomoth is very good, unless you are referring only to the UU metagame.

By competitively viable, I mean usable in the OU or UU tiers. Yanmega is superior in almost every way to Venomoth - much better Sp. Atk and Speed.

I think Mantine deserves a mention on the counters section. It has a titanic base 140 SpD, can resist Reversal sets, resist its STAB Bug Buzz and is immune to HP Ground which is common on Yanmega. It is only hitting it by Air Slash and Psychic. Why use it as a counter? Well Yanmega packs 104 Def which Registeel has a hard time penetrating with Iron Head. Mantine can hit it harder on the special side where Yanmega is pretty exposed too Special attacks peaking at 54 Base SpD. You can OHKO back with HP Flying which is common for Mantine.

Modest Yanmega 252 SpA + Life Orb + Air Slash vs 252 HP / 252 SpD Mantine = 27.84% - 33.23%

Modest Yanmega 252 SpA + Choice Specs + Linted Lens + Bug Buzz vs 252 HP / 252 SpD = 38.32% - 45.21%


I can say it takes hits like a champ. Defenitley deserves a mention.

I'll add this in.

Any more changes?

 

[franky]

Looks good (really good) just a food for thought though, Chansey is a real real bane to Absol. I never had huge success with Yanmega because of Chansey in play. I think a paragraph or even a couple sentences to remove Chansey should be added. Mean Look Umreon is decent but capturing it with CB Pursuit from Absol is amazing. I used Yanmega succesful with CB Absol with me or even Life Orb Absol if I don't want to get trapped.

CB Absol 394 Atk vs fleeing 0 HP / 252 Def Chansey = 72.70% - 85.65%

No one in the right mind would stay on Absol anyone I'm sure you can snag yourself a Chansey per game with this (well it worked for me). You can add it if you like, its just a strategy for team options section to remove it.

 

[Garganator]

About counters section - Maybe it's a bit too niche, but Noctowl is another good counter against Yanmega. Standard Max HP/Max SpD Calm Noctowl takes maximum 35% HP from Max SpA Life Orb Modest Air Slash. In other words he can switch even on SR, Roost of damage (unlike Mantine) and finish it of with STAB flying attack or just continue to attack with Night Shade and heal back any damage with mentioned earlier Roost. Noctowl survives Max Powered Reversal from Yanmega, but it needs Max Health and no SR on field for it when you mispredict. Or you just need to switch in and heal off damage from SR when Yanmega uses substitute.

 

[franky]

It struggles from Choice + Tinted Lens.
It deals 43.32% - 51.24% which is not safe to switch in considering SR is in play. Roost is good though. It would be a pretty good check, but that's it.

 

[Draco Zephyr]

Noctowl isn't a plumb counter, but I'll give it a mention.

Unless there are any more comments, this is done.

 

[jrrrrrrr]

Is there any chance this could get an OU section as well, similar to how Latias has both OU and Ubers sections? As we all know, Yanmega fares very well in both tiers and it would be a shame if we completely ignored it in OU just because it is UU now...

 

[JabbaTheGriffin]

Yeah I'd say all Pokemon that are on the cusp of OU and are likely to fluctuate back and forth should probably have sections for both tiers. So things like Donphan, Yanmega, Umbreon, etc should probably have two full analyses.

 

[Caelum]

Yeah I'd say all Pokemon that are on the cusp of OU and are likely to fluctuate back and forth should probably have sections for both tiers. So things like Donphan, Yanmega, Umbreon, etc should probably have two full analyses.

I don't think entirely new OU ones are necessary. We can always just switch back and forth using the SCMS once the tiering changes to revert back to the old OU ones. Although, I guess a Team Options section would need to be done.

Anyway, yeah some small OU stuff for Yanmega is needed in this.

 

[Draco Zephyr]

I've pretty much stopped playing OU recently, so I'm not sure if I'll do a good job on it. But I'll give it a shot anyways. The thing I want to know is, how large-scale does it need to be? Like, do I add a separate Team Options paragraph on each set pertaining to OU (because pretty much all the sets are viable in OU also) or just a paragraph in the main Team Options section?

 

[Draco Zephyr]

removed all references to shaymin and crobat.

I still haven't got any responses to the above post, so I don't know what to write for the OU section. Could someone please help?

 

[Xia]

If I were you, I would jut add on a sentence or two describing the counters to Yanmega in OU and the teammates to check these counters.

It'd probably be best to include defensive and offensive in the Team Options paragraphs, and references in the counters section as well.

 

[twash]

Yeah, just a small paragraph for each set or so explaining how (if) it works in OU and explaining what Pokemon pair well with it in OU. If any other moves should be considered, add that in too. Nothing too big, but enough so the reader has an firm idea.

 

[capefeather]

When used in UU, the Defense EVs become less useful, so one can shift 80 EVs into Speed [152 + 80 = 232], which allows it to outspeed lead Electrode after a Speed Boost. This boost is influential, as Electrode is one of the very few leads that can combat Yanmega and come out on top.

Don't you only need 208 Spe to outspeed 252 Spe Electrode after a Speed Boost?

 

[jrrrrrrr]

I uploaded this to the site, because Yanmega is still UU for the time being and he is kind of an important mon in the tier...If the time comes where Yanmega's tiering changes, we can always just fix it up appropriately. This edit turned out really well, gj