XY UU Viability Ranking Thread V2

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YABO

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While I agree that Crobat is certainly an issue for Mienshao's S Rank candidacy, it is worth noting that each S Rank pokemon has a set of checks and counters of its own in the metagame. For Lucario, we see the Nido's, Chandelure, and Gligar as the 3 premier checks. Jirachi generally has problems with Swampert and other bulky waters. MegaZam has trouble muscling its way through the bulkier walls in the tier. Hydreigon faces the same problem as MZam. Crobats position as a check to Mienshao is shakier than those I just listed because of Stone Edge and Pursuit.

252 Atk Life Orb Mienshao Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Crobat: 333-393 (89.2 - 105.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Krookodile Pursuit vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Crobat: 220-259 (58.9 - 69.4%)
252 Atk Choice Band Krookodile Pursuit vs. 72 HP / 0 Def Crobat: 220-259 (66.8 - 78.7%)

CB Krook is a very common and capable companion for Mienshao as we saw in the success of Dudeman's most recent team. It is not the most difficult thing for either Mienshao set to find a way around Crobat. Life Orb sets can OHKO after rocks with Stone Edge whereas Choice Scarf sets can rely on its teammates to remove pretty much the one common thing that always stands in your way. This is compounded with the fact that since Crobat is the one defogging hazards that so long as you keep it pressured with Krookodile then it has to either choose between removing entry hazards or roosting on the switch.
 

Sam

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Me and dingbat had some discussion, and we think Zygarde deserves some serious consideration for S. After tinkering around with the DD set some more, it can perform against balance/bulky offense exceptionally well, as well as standard offense. While it is definitely weak without boosts, it can afford to run a decent amount of HP which makes setting up multiple DDs easier.
 
I would lke zygarde for S, it's bulky af, and can set-up on a surprising amount of stuff, and it's movepool is pretty neat.

Also: durant for B-, this thing has honestly worked surprisingly for me lately, ad I kinda think it's undérrated. It's choice band set is honestly pretty awesome, with hustle amd CB giving it an instant +2. It can also be tailored pretty easily to fit the needs of your team, with niece stuff like thunder fang and crunch fuqing over regular switch-in's.

It's speed is also really trollish, as it can outspeed base 108's like cobalion and virizion, along with most things not crobat, starmie, espeon, and alakazam

252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Durant Thunder Fang vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 204-240 (50.4 - 59.4%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery. kinda impressive IMO.

252 Atk Hustle Durant X-Scissor vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Alakazam: 492-582 (195.2 - 230.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO assuming you use it to beat mega zam, you should use jolly choice scarf.

252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Durant Superpower vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Rotom-H: 245-289 (101.6 - 119.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Durant Superpower vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Lucario: 690-814 (245.5 - 289.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

In return:

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Durant: 100-118 (38.9 - 45.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO



it has massive issues with priority, scarfers, and faster stuff in general, but it's only B- we are going for, right?
 
I think the largest issue with moving Durant up is that Hustle only does so much for it. Yes, you're hitting a hell of a lot harder, but unless you run Hone Claws, Durant is going to miss attacks. The drop in accuracy and having to rely on Thunder Fang to get past most bulky Water-types, coupled with its issues with priority and most scarfers/things faster than it, leave Durant where it currently resides - C-Rank. Also, this thing just dies to any special attack.

If this was based solely on a Pokemon's ability to demolish things, Exploud would be significantly higher than it currently is. Because of the aforementioned flaws though, I think Durant is fine where it is.
 
Way late to this one, but Mienshao should stay in A+ for sure. It's definitely an amazing Pokemon and my favorite Scarfer but the fact that it'll basically never get past things like Aromatisse and Granbull and even Hippowdon, combined with the fact that it's extremely frail but still not mind-blowingly fast or strong are the things that keep it from S. It's great against offense but it won't really be doing all too much to more defensive teams and especially full stall because of this. Life Orb High Jump Kicks are actually only marginally stronger than Scarf High Jump Kicks since Life Orb sets will really want to run Regenerator. It's a great 'mon and every team absolutely needs one or more answers for it, but not quite S material.

I'm all for Zygarde in S. Sam went over most of the reasons already. The most important one is its bulk which makes its DD set more effective than Haxorus's DD set to me. It's actually plausible for Zygarde to set up two Dragon Dances, especially against people that fear a SubCoil set and try to play around that. This makes up for its slightly underwhelming initial power.
 

Kink

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Just letting you guys know that the viability council is having a preliminary discussion on new ORAS Viability Rankings. I encourage you all to make relevant discussion points here and the ORAS Discussion Thread.
 
Just gonna throw out that I think Whimsicott is gonna be even better in ORAS UU than it is now. Whimsi already does very well, with the possibility of Mega Sceptile coming to UU, Megagross shooting to OU, and Mega Absol looking to become more relevant Whimsicott will probably jump into UU usage soon enough since its a great check to Mega Sceptile and Mega Absol.
 
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I guess I'll start a discussion on the topic of Mega Sharpedo:

As most of us know, the shark got a pretty disappointing buff of a mega. With only a +20 increase in attack, a +10 increase in Speed, and the rest in defenses/SpAtt, it's a pretty wonky spread for a mon so frail. The attack is about the same as its LO counterpart, and his defenses are still nothing to be proud of. At first glance, the mega shark looks pretty bad.

However, the mega can still find a home in UU, with a role similar to Mega Alakazam: clean up worn-down teams. However, it's easy to wonder why one would pick Mega Sharpedo over his (stronger) Life Orb normal form? The answer is Strong Jaw, which boosts up the shark's Crunch very high, nothing a weakened mon wants to take. Also thanks to Strong Jaw, Ice Fang gets a respectible boost, letting the shark hit Grass types extremely hard, along with Dragons.


Normal Sharpedo's base ability Speed Boost also helps Mega Sharpedo, as with one boost, it outspeeds all relevant scarfers, making it basically impossible to outpace without priority. This is where Mega Sharpedo's boosted defenses come in handy, allowing Sharpedo to take most priority outside of Mach Punch. He resists important priority like Sucker Punch and Ice Shard, while being able to tank things like LO Lucario's Extremespeed (on phone, trust me with this one), which is helpful since its sweep can't easily end.

However, there are downsides to Mega Shark. He can't ko everything, which is bad since most mons with a nuetral move will ko back. It's also much harder to sweep if he's forced to switch in mega form, as he'll never be able to Speed Boost again, leaving him bait for scarfers. Finally, he takes up the mega slot, which is a big damper to his viability.

With this speculation, I personally believe that Mega Shark will find a home in UU, and I would rank him around A due to his superb cleaning skills. His lack of usefulness outside of late game and other flaws makes A- also understandable. I think, overall, he'll be a welcome edition to UU :]
 
Mega Sableye to S.

That shit is crazy as hell. It's the backbone of OU Stall and is certainly no different down here. It hands down walls a good portion of the metagame and functions as the best spinblocker in the tier. Magic Bounce allows it to simply stop oiffense and defense teams alike.
 
Mega Shark (preeetty sure that was a SyFy Original) doesn't outspeed all relevant scarfers. He only ties Mienshao at +1 and he fails to OHKO with Waterfall while Mienshao (obviously) OHKOs with HJK. He no longer OHKOs with U-turn, though.
 
Kind of hard to talk about viability when there hasn't been a showdown UU, so I may be speaking from PO experience more here.

Let us start with Mega Lop:
I'm not too sure about her placement but A or A+ seems like a good start for her with her ability and perfect coverage in her two STABs she is a nightmare to deal with for offensive oriented teams. She will struggle a bit more with defensive teams I find as Granbull/Alo/Jirachi/Aroma are a nuisance for her to deal with it as like Meinshao she doesn't have boosting capabilities, aside from Work up/PuP, to really muscle past these walls. Along with the cons of HJK being more dangerous to use against such teams, often they have Wish+Protect passers, makes spamming HJK against defensive teams more difficult. She also has the ever popular MAero to check her. That said she does provide a unique niche as not only being a fast hard hitter but also capable of providing support with her wide array of support moves, Heal bell and Healing Wish stand out. Overall she is a very solid mon although with notable flaws, still I want to say more but it is tough to comment not seeing her perform in the actual UU environment (even with ORAS UU available on PO I still rarely get to play said game).

MDiancie:
I dare say A+ to be safe but S is a very good possibility.
I am more inclined to comment what I did in OU viability thread already but frankly... She already fares very well in OU and is likely to do even better in UU simply because many of the omnipresent threats she so abhors are by and large absent in the tier without an equivalent, Scizor/Lando-T/Craw/Azu/Skarmory/Excadrill/etc, the environment is overall more favorable to her. If anything one thing I am particularly wary about her in UU is that her boosting sets, CM/RP, are far more viable in UU because things don't hit her quite as hard and far less priority to worry about that I can see these sets being more successful in UU as she pull it off with more ease giving her more versatility and keeping you guessing.
 
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Sam

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There was a bit of a misunderstanding, we aren't making ORAS rankings yet. Rather, we're going to be solidifying the final XYUU ranks as the meta comes to a close. You're welcome to make any final suggestions, though the viability council will also be making some changes.

As for ORAS, we intend to wait about a week or so after the meta starts to make viability rankings.
 
There was a bit of a misunderstanding, we aren't making ORAS rankings yet. Rather, we're going to be solidifying the final XYUU ranks as the meta comes to a close. You're welcome to make any final suggestions, though the viability council will also be making some changes.

As for ORAS, we intend to wait about a week or so after the meta starts to make viability rankings.
Is it safe to assume that viability rankings will take effect after potential suspects have been weeded out? Since that would drastically change the metagame quite a bit.
 

Sam

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No. Right now, the ORAS meta will go 3 weeks before there's any quickbanning or suspecting. We plan to start the ORAS viability thread after 1 week. If any bannings affect the rankings, that is fine and something we can deal with.
 
Alright so the lot of us in charge of these rankings, as well as a few members from the council, got together over IRC tonight to finalize the XYUU Viability Rankings. As the undisputed king of good TL;DR I have the honors of posting what we changed and updating the OP. Keep in mind I really didn't go nuts with the descriptions.

(-) S-Rank to A+-Rank
Lucario finds itself in a bulkier metagame right now than it did when it first rose to S-Rank. The recent rise in Gligar and the general lack of usability in Ice Punch has shafted its viability as a Swords Dance sweeper. The Nasty Plot set is still a very Potent Pokemon, probably why it is still able to maintain A+ status.

(-) A+ Rank to A Rank
Another rise in bulky Water-types is really starting to hamper Mega-Aerodactyl's effectiveness in the tier, as teams are becoming increasingly prepared for other strong threats (ie; Zygarde, Machamp). While Mega-Aerodactyl is insanely fast, Choice Scarf users still get the best of it, and Mega-Alakazam's arrival has prompted an increase in general Choice Scarf usage, which equally hurts Mega-Aerodactyl.

(-) A+ Rank to A Rank
Alakazam has seen a similar fate to Lucario, as the upward trend of bulk in the XY Underused metagame has made Alakazam less threatening than it used to be. Faces competition from its mega forme for dominance as a Special Attacker too.

(-) A+ Rank to A Rank
With Victini having been banished into BL, Krookodile has seen a decline in viability as there's less things to Pursuit trap. It sits at a really awkward Speed tier too, which prevents it from being truly threatening.

(+) A+ Rank to S Rank
This one is fairly obvious. Zygarde, fresh off its suspect test, is already threatening the metagame. Thanks to its insane bulk, it's capable of setting up on a lot of the defensive Pokemon in the tier with either Dragon Dance or Coil, then proceed to break or beat opposing teams.

(-) A Rank to A- Rank
Mega-Ampharos is extremely slow and it's beginning to show. The rise in Gligar's usage is also keeping it from aimlessly spamming Volt Switch.

(+) A Rank to A+ Rank
Machamp has proven to be a really good walbreaker in this metagame. It has an excellent balance of bulk, two solid abilities (Guts or No Guard), and has lots of versatility when equipped with an Assault Vest or Choice Band. It's only real flaws are its terrible Speed and the drawbacks of its STAB (low PP, Close Combat defense drops).

(-) A Rank to A- Rank
Here's a debate that refuses to quit. The final verdict on Nidoking is that it is generally outclassed by Nidoqueen. I think this thing only hits harder than its bulkier counterpart by a few percentages at most, which isn't enough of a trade-off to give Nidoking an edge over Nidoqueen. It's faster too, but Nidoqueen is a much more viable Pokemon in today's metagame thanks to its bulk and equal power.

(-) A- Rank to B Rank
Most of the tier uses Blissey as setup bait, or as utility bait. Putting one onto your team almost forces you into running stall or mediocre balance.

(+) A- Rank to A Rank
Celebi's increase in viability is due to a few things. The rise in Whimsicott and Water-types has made it as useful as ever, and it has an excellent Weakness Policy Pass set that just does work on the tier since there's so many great recipients. It's a generally good Pokemon too.

(+) A- Rank to A Rank
Sacred Fire. SubCM Suicune fears having to take a burn and Crocune is pressured by Zygarde, making this thing significantly better.

(-) A- Rank to C Rank
The biggest movement on the final revision, Espeon has lost whatever viability it used to have. Between the Baton Pass nerf and Mega-Alakazam outclassing it, it's only real niche is maybe subpassing and maybe some unexplored gimmicks. Nobody has ever made a good team with this thing either. It's basically a liability.

(-) A- Rank to B Rank
Forretress really doesn't have any offensive or defensive merit anymore. It does provide decent support, but it has a huge issue with 4MSS and overlap with bulky Water-types that do its job better. Must take a hit in order to use Volt Switch, which sucks.

(+) B+ Rank to A- Rank
This thing should have never dropped in the first place. Fast Stealth Rock, Explosion, and some decent offensive sets. Cornerstone for modern HO teams.

(+) B+ Rank to A- Rank
Yanmega finds itself in a position where it is extremely anti-meta right now. The new sound move mechanics means it can bypass Substitutes and Speed Boost makes it very hard to keep pace with after a couple turns. Stealth Rock still bugs it see what I did there? and it needs teams to be weakened before it can really take hold of a match.

(+) B- Rank to B Rank
A minor adjustment here, but Fletchinder is another Pokemon that performs excellently when paired with something capable of keeping Stealth Rock off your side of the field. Access to Will-O-Wisp helps teams break down Water- and Steel-types, and priority birdspam helps cleans teams in the later stages of a match.

and
(x) Removed from rankings
Both Chatot and Cinccino have been removed from the XYUU Viability Rankings. Neither Pokemon is effective in the current metagame nor are they equipped to compete in it.

These were the major changes that were discussed tonight. Everything else was seen as okay where it was, or simply not worth discussing. Feel free to bicker about our decisions, don't expect them to change. If you think we've missed anything, speak up. I'll edit the OP tomorrow, I'm dead tired right now.
 
Major qualms:

Fletchinder: Arguably, because the meta is getting bulkier, Fletchinder's viability shouldn't be going up. Its trademark Priority Acro functions very well in Offensive iterations of the metagame, and thus I don't really see the merit in raising its viability, especially with Bulky waters becoming better. I mean, it does wonders against Yanmega, but that in of itself is an upward trend and we'll have to wait and see where it truly caps off.

Espeon: IMO this is too drastic. Although it doesn't see much playtime, imo Dual Screens HO is good for beating the dominant playstyles in this metagame right now. Magic Bounce allows for 100% setting with no threats from Taunt, Encore, etc. Definitely should be B- for that quality.

Tentacruel: imo it should get a raise. The rise in Gligar usage and its almost perfect meshing with Gligar transitively makes Tentacruel that much better (especially since the reasoning for Entei raise is partly because of how good Zygarde is rn). Gligar + Tentacruel is one of the best Hazard control cores in the metagame right now, not to also mention Toxic Spikes is godlike in this meta.
 
I would like to dispute both the Krookodile and Blissey drops.

Krookodile: IMO Krook's great deal of viability never came down too much to its ability to Pursuit trap, but the fact that it is one of the best spammers of both Knock Off and Earthquake in the tier. Personally, I find it to be around just as good at Machamp at wallbreaking. The Choice Band set with those 2 strong STABs make it very threatening, with nothing in the tier really wanting to switch in to both of those other than Chesnaught and Hydreigon, both of which are still crippled by Knock Off. Intimidate gives a great deal of utility and Pursuit still does a great job in dealing lots of damage to Pokemon which it forces out, making them easy to clean up. And then it has the ability to run other sets effectively, including Choice Scarf, Bulky SR or BU setup sweeper. And its speed tier combined with reasonable bulk still make it a great Pokemon. Definitely deserving of A+.

Blissey: We all know how many Special Attackers this thing walls with 0 support needed, and even a lot of uninvested or weaker Physical Attackers. It can be a bit of setup bait, though the utility it provides is also amazing, and this flaw is somewhat subsidised by the fact that it can Wish on the opponents switch-in and as long as the receiver survives one hit, it gets back up to full and can threaten out the answer to Blissey. And lets not forget how bloody good those wishes are, fully healing Pokemon whereas other wishes generally only achieve half. The plethora of mons that it walls, access to Natural Cure, being one of the few Specially defensive SR setters in the tier and the largest Wishes in the game make it a general staple for stall. And I don't see how "Putting one onto your team almost forces you into running stall" is that much of a drawback in terms of viability if you were planning on running stall in the first place. I could quite easily say that Froslass is and should be B rank because it forces you to run Hyper Offence. Like what? The great addition of Blissey to stall teams warrants it at least A- rank (and don't start bullshitting about how "stall is unviable in the current metagame").
 

dingbat

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Mazz I'm p sure we also moved up vap, umb, mower, and kyurem...unless I missed smth last night.


Will edit this post later on why pretty much everyone agreed on why bliss moved down on irc and other stuff
I think meru made some of those changes earlier. umby and vappy are both a rank

Kyurem hasn't been changed though
 
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ScraftyIsTheBest

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I've always been of the opinion that Espeon is pretty bad personally. I guess it's still in C Rank because it can function as a solo Passer, but otherwise, I just really think it's not worth using at all in most cases. It is severely outclassed by Mega Alakazam as a fast special Psychic-type who hits harder and has Trace (plus it's faster). Even normal Alakazam is better. Its only redeeming quality right now is probably Baton Pass, so it can function as a solo Passer without being phazed or the like, but outside of that, I would never use Espeon over Alakazam or any special attacker in general. Beyond that, there is pretty much nothing Espeon is good at. Dual Screens might be okayish, but I'd much often prefer Azelf as it can stop setup or removal with its fast Taunt anyways and has Rocks, plus is faster. Magic Bounce is not even that good of an ability since everyone sees it coming. Everything except for like Alomomola has some way to hit Espeon really hard because its typing is terrible defensively and it's not very bulky. Even being a decent special attacker does not save Espeon because it's severely outclassed as a special attacker. Magic Bounce just isn't good enough to save Espeon from being horribly outclassed. I guess it can still run some Baton Pass shenanigans, but really I rarely (if ever) actually needed what it does. Keep it in C Rank imo. (also the thread still needs to be updated lol).

Also Fletchinder is quite good as a win condition because +1 Acrobatics after a boost wrecks and all of Fletch's counters are inescapable to Will-O-Wisp and it makes a boss sweeper+revenge killer so yeah.
 

Sam

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OK, I'm locking this thread since XY UU is now over and we have left the final ranks open for discussion for long enough. We plan on opening the ORAS Viability thread soon. However, we are planning on waiting about a week to give the metagame some time to settle. So go and enjoy the new ORAS UU, and be ready for some more discussion when the next viability thread is up!
 
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