Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)

[Zibbity]

So many problems with TRC's comment, I can't come up with a good reply.

I'm not seeing Metagross on the list. It that an oversight or is it just that bad this gen?

Metagross got nerfed with every generation. Metagross' steel typing no long resists dark and ghost, so being psychic typed is considered bad. Metagross has been one of my favorites from gen 3, but I don't take him into consideration in OU because of Aegislash which generally outclasses Metagross except as a Duel Screens lead, but even Klefki is more suited for that.

 

[Kel9901]

So many problems with TRC's comment, I can't come up with a good reply.

might as well mention some of them

 

[ItoI6]

idk crobat feels kind of outclassed in its role by stall breaker talon with the clutch bb priority, being able to get past steels, and ability to fake other sets. It has niche stuff like hypnosis and haze but i dont really see how those can make it viable when its worse than a ton of other stuff in the role of stall breaker. And it cant even do that well really. Also crobat kind of sucks against offensive teams, whereas even defensive talonflame can pull its weight with a relatively strong priority move.

 

[kabbes]

I agree that Excadrill belongs to stay A+

I'm always surprised that choice band is never seen as an option though. Its damage is immense, with virtually nothing being a safe switch-in. And people see no balloon and no recoil and assume the scarf, which can catch them out. Switch it in to something it resists or is immune to and create murder on their switch. And at Jolly 252, it still outspeeds a neutral base 100s.

I find that a band Excadrill can generally even 2HKO a Ferrothorn, which comes as a very nasty surprise to a lot of opponents.

 

[procrastinat]

I agree that Excadrill belongs to stay A+

I'm always surprised that choice band is never seen as an option though. Its damage is immense, with virtually nothing being a safe switch-in. And people see no balloon and no recoil and assume the scarf, which can catch them out. Switch it in to something it resists or is immune to and create murder on their switch. And at Jolly 252, it still outspeeds a neutral base 100s.

I find that a band Excadrill can generally even 2HKO a Ferrothorn, which comes as a very nasty surprise to a lot of opponents.

I've actually been using a Band Rush Excadrill on the ladder and the thing never let me down. It's off-the-bat power shocks many switch-ins like ferro, including gliscor, hippo, conkeldurr, quagsire, and megasaur. As well as being able to outspeed the entire unboosted metagame. I haven't used it in the way you described, preferring Adamant and sand rush, but I do agree that Band excadrill is a threat to be aware of.

 

[kabbes]

I've actually been using a Band Rush Excadrill on the ladder and the thing never let me down. It's off-the-bat power shocks many switch-ins like ferro, including gliscor, hippo, conkeldurr, quagsire, and megasaur. As well as being able to outspeed the entire unboosted metagame. I haven't used it in the way you described, preferring Adamant and sand rush, but I do agree that Band excadrill is a threat to be aware of.

Yeah, I've also considered going that route too, but I do so enjoy spamming that mold breaker earthquake!

Either way, the thing has clobbering power and no mistake.

 

[theV8man]

idk crobat feels kind of outclassed in its role by stall breaker talon with the clutch bb priority, being able to get past steels, and ability to fake other sets. It has niche stuff like hypnosis and haze but i dont really see how those can make it viable when its worse than a ton of other stuff in the role of stall breaker. And it cant even do that well really. Also crobat kind of sucks against offensive teams, whereas even defensive talonflame can pull its weight with a relatively strong priority move.

Crobat is actually surprisingly good when I've used it. It gets great utility in the form of u-turn, taunt, defog, roost, and hypnosis(kinda). It's stabs are also pretty great against the current metagame, you don't need to invest much in attack to threaten all kinds of fairies, fightings and mega-venu's. It's typing actually gives it some sweet resistances to common attacking types, and with HP investment Crobat is pretty bulky. This is not to mention it's blazingly fast speed, which lets it outsepeed/revenge a ton of the meta. I think it's ok around the C to C+ area.

 

[Halcyon.]

Crobat seems to me to be complete ass in every way possible. Let's look at some of the reasons people think it's usable.

Crobat is very useful. High speed stat, Infiltrator Brave Bird checks many Pokemon, Taunt, Haze, Defog, Roost, 1/4 resistance to U-turn and fighting moves, immunity to Toxic, also a hard counter to almost every Gliscor I face in OU.

Ah Infiltrator Brave Bird. That seems useful. Except that realistically what is using sub at the moment? Gengar? Ok good one thing Crobat can check...well unless it gets burned by WoW. Fast Taunt is useful, but not more useful against stall than any other Pokemon with Taunt, especially things like Stall Breaker Mew, which has, you know, actual defenses. HAze is a terrible move lol, it's not fast enough to haze away boosts on sweepers, so the only thing it does it like...Calm Mind users? Ok so it beats Sub Gengar and Suicune unless it gets burned. Nice. Defog, yeah and so do a bunch of other Pokemon with either good attacking stats or good defensive stats, of which Crobat has neither. Roost is great and all but it doesn't change the fact that it has shitty defenses which can't even be invested in because you need to take advantage of its Speed if you want it to be useful. It resists U-turn. Ok and the Pokemon that use U-turn are...Landorus, Mega Scizor, and Landorus-T? Which of those can it beat? Cause it seems like all three can beat it pretty easily. Fighting resist lets it beat Keldeo, Terrakion, Breloom, and Conkeldurr as long as they only run mono-attacking sets and we pretend Specs Scald, LO Stone Edge, Rock Tomb, and Ice Punch don't exist. It's immune to Toxic. Nice, now it's shitty defense can't be put on a timer! And it counters Gliscor. Alright so add that to the list and we get Gengar unless it gets burned, Suicune unless you get burned, and Gliscor. Yep, that seems like a C+ Pokemon to me.

Alright I get that this post was probably overly hostile, but I just woke up and I'm not a morning person. Also I can't stand when people advocate for a Pokemon when it's been refuted so many times. This is one of those times. Crobat is just outclassed. There's nothing it does that can't be done better by other Pokemon including Mandibuzz, Mew, Skarmory, and most importantly, Talonflame. It just doesn't have the ability to max out its defenses and its speed at the same time, which makes it pretty mediocre in all regards.

Also you went after my nigga Gary2346 >:c

 

[theV8man]

Crobat seems to me to be complete ass in every way possible. Let's look at some of the reasons people think it's usable.



Ah Infiltrator Brave Bird. That seems useful. Except that realistically what is using sub at the moment? Gengar? Ok good one thing Crobat can check...well unless it gets burned by WoW. Fast Taunt is useful, but not more useful against stall than any other Pokemon with Taunt, especially things like Stall Breaker Mew, which has, you know, actual defenses. HAze is a terrible move lol, it's not fast enough to haze away boosts on sweepers, so the only thing it does it like...Calm Mind users? Ok so it beats Sub Gengar and Suicune unless it gets burned. Nice. Defog, yeah and so do a bunch of other Pokemon with either good attacking stats or good defensive stats, of which Crobat has neither. Roost is great and all but it doesn't change the fact that it has shitty defenses which can't even be invested in because you need to take advantage of its Speed if you want it to be useful. It resists U-turn. Ok and the Pokemon that use U-turn are...Landorus, Mega Scizor, and Landorus-T? Which of those can it beat? Cause it seems like all three can beat it pretty easily. Fighting resist lets it beat Keldeo, Terrakion, Breloom, and Conkeldurr as long as they only run mono-attacking sets and we pretend Specs Scald, LO Stone Edge, Rock Tomb, and Ice Punch don't exist. It's immune to Toxic. Nice, now it's shitty defense can't be put on a timer! And it counters Gliscor. Alright so add that to the list and we get Gengar unless it gets burned, Suicune unless you get burned, and Gliscor. Yep, that seems like a C+ Pokemon to me.

Alright I get that this post was probably overly hostile, but I just woke up and I'm not a morning person. Also I can't stand when people advocate for a Pokemon when it's been refuted so many times. This is one of those times. Crobat is just outclassed. There's nothing it does that can't be done better by other Pokemon including Mandibuzz, Mew, Skarmory, and most importantly, Talonflame. It just doesn't have the ability to max out its defenses and its speed at the same time, which makes it pretty mediocre in all regards.

Also you went after my nigga Gary2346 >:c

I think you're being a bit too harsh on Crobat bro. Infiltrator Brave Bird takes out sub Breloom, sub Medicham, and a slightly weakened sub Kyurem. Pretty damn useful. Taunt is taunt. Haze isn't for stopping setup-sweepers, I agree it's a waste of a moveslot, but if you're using it you're using to stop clefable of BP. 85/80/80 defensive stats is not bad, and comes into use when taking resisted hits. But yeah its defense is nothing to brag about. Sure, it can't switch into Keldeo, or Terrakion, but who would switch Crobat or any other Pokemon on potentially devastating attacks... it checks and doesn't counter. It counters more than Gliscor. It counters Mega-Venu, Amoongus, and with Super Fang it can cripple many other stall mons. It's a good Pokemon to have on balance because of its ability to annoy stall and hit fast Pokes, making it a nice lead. I don't think it has what it takes to move out of the C ranks though.

 

[Swamp-Rocket]

idk about Crobat's viability in general (it probably doesn't deserve to be ranked or is a D) but you are being a little harsh on it.

Ah Infiltrator Brave Bird. That seems useful. Except that realistically what is using sub at the moment? Gengar? Ok good one thing Crobat can check...well unless it gets burned by WoW.

With Stealth Rock and a Substitute 28 HP (is that the standard spread? idr) Gengar is OHKOed by Brave Bird 100% of the time with... not very much investment in attack required. To outspeed Timid Gengar, Crobat doesn't even have to resort to using a Jolly Nature either.

EDIT: Sub Medicham too

HAze is a terrible move lol, it's not fast enough to haze away boosts on sweepers, so the only thing it does it like...Calm Mind users?

Baton Pass, which for now is relevant enough. Considering it can get through Subs with Brave Bird and Taunt the subs, you actually have something that can take them down while still providing other support.

Fighting resist lets it beat Keldeo, Terrakion, Breloom, and Conkeldurr as long as they only run mono-attacking sets and we pretend Specs Scald, LO Stone Edge, Rock Tomb, and Ice Punch don't exist.

Not arguing with Terrakion since its a Rock type, but you could switch in on the Specs Secret Sword, any of Breloom's other moves, or one of Conkeldurr's other moves and OHKO them with Brave Bird. The same could be said about a lot of the other Pokemon that check these Pokemon - you need to have prediction to beat Crobat just like you need prediction to send in your Latios to check them, otherwise it could get Knock Off/Ice Punched, Specs Icy Winded, or Rock Tomb + high roll Bullet Seeded and be a terrible check, right?

It's immune to Toxic. Nice, now it's shitty defense can't be put on a timer!

Defog, yeah and so do a bunch of other Pokemon with either good attacking stats or good defensive stats, of which Crobat has neither. Roost is great and all but it doesn't change the fact that it has shitty defenses which can't even be invested in because you need to take advantage of its Speed if you want it to be useful.

At least it is immune to Toxic, has Defog, gets Roost, has a fast Taunt, gets U-turn, and has a decent STAB. Even if its stats are subpar, its options help it out. Whereas Mandibuzz is destroyed by Toxic, Crobat won't have to deal with this. Skarmory is the only other one to be immune to Toxic, but it doesn't have speed or U-turn like Crobat. While Crobat may not have a good attack stat, LO Latios's Psyshock (yes I know its not Draco Meteor but Draco Meteor has those side effects that prevent it from being used repeatedly) doesn't do that much more than a max attack Brave Bird from Crobat (with Black Sludge). While Crobat isn't a Pokemon with that high of defensive stats, its resistances and immunity to Toxic coupled with a recovery move makes it last longer than you might expect.

Again its still a D or C- mon at best, considering it isn't as good as Mandibuzz, Skarmory, or Mew most of the time, but it def. isn't as bad as you make it out to be. It's supposed to be more of a stall breaker, anyway (the non Defog variants, that is), and a lot of these traits help it perform a lot better against Stall as the guy above me said.

 

[ShadesOfSolomon]

Breloom almost always loses its Sash immediately and all it takes for Aegislash to shut it down is to let it put something else to sleep. The reason I brought up Sash in the first place is because that's what Breloom relies on the most when checking offensive Pokemon that outspeed it, which it cannot do if entry hazards are up.

Sub + Poison Heal has to choose between coverage and Spore, since both STABs are mandatory. You're also either choosing between Mach Punch without Technician (with a notable power loss) or Focus Punch (meaning you cannot use your best STAB if your sub is broken).

All Stall needs to do to fuck Breloom over is switch to Mega Venusaur, Mandibuzz (who also is immune to Spore thanks to Overcoat), or Skarmory if you already put something to sleep.

My experience with PH Breloom, actually, is that it's far more effective without grass STAB. Its primary role isn't to outright attack, it's to come in on status or resisted hits (and there are a fair few of those), and then set up a substitute and Seed the incoming Pokemon. Spore is always expected, and as a consequence is much better saved until later in the match when the opponent's first recourse isn't to send in a sleep absorber. It gets hard countered by Mega Venusaur, but that's a common problem with every Breloom set. Unlike Sashloom, it actually walls Mandibuzz (seeds then just throws subs up in its face), and has a much easier time with Skarmory because it isn't as reliant on putting things to sleep and can save the Spore for when it counts.

... or latias, or chesnaught or or aegislash or poison heal gliscor...

Breloom's best set is definitely that sash lead. Poison heal is more or less garbage given you lose to pokemon you'd check otherwise, such as Talonflame, Pinsir-m, CharizardY.

Latias can only come in on Mach Punch or Bullet Seed, as it finds its speed dropped sufficiently by RT to allow Breloom to Spore it. It does scare out PH Breloom, but only if Spore has been used up, and then only after getting Seeded. Aegislash deals with Sashloom, but only if something has been put to sleep, and can't switch in against PH variants. PH Gliscor forces PH Breloom out, but at the cost of being seeded, which effectively neuters it as a wall and forces it to switch as well. Chesnaught can hard counter most Brelooms, but can't switch in against PH variants with Focus Punch and can't really do anything to Breloom in return.

Zard Y, Pinsir and Talon can all check the PH set, but only if something has been put to sleep, and even then only after getting seeded. If Breloom wishes, it can also stall out Zard Y's sun to provide team mates with easier switch ins.

 

[Gary]

http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...thread-re-ranking.3502268/page-7#post-5485647

Just a few new updates. Also guys keep in mind that pretty much every single rank change is caused by your guys' support. Very rarely have alexwolf and I had to step in and make an executive decision about a certain ranking, even if a majority of the community doesn't agree with it, hell I can't even remember the last time that happened. If you don't agree with a way a certain Pokemon is ranked, then please write up a post about it and explain why. Don't just sit there and blatantly insult alexwolf and I by saying that you question our metagame knowledge simply because you don't agree with a community driven decision. I've had to change the rankings of many Pokemon despite how much I disagreed with them, but I did it anyway because the community wanted me to do it.

Just keep that in mind the next time you attempt to disagree with a ranking. When I see posts like this "By now I've lost faith in the people behind this viability list, it was more accurate back in April" I laugh, because every decision that is made in this thread, is pretty much all derived from the discussion I see in this thread, not "the people behind this thread". I don't dictate the rankings, I just change them according to what the majority of you guys want. Crobat was seen as subpar by most of the community and I saw a lot of arguments for just dropping it off completely. It no longer has an analysis as well. If I see enough compelling evidence that Crobat isn't a useless Pokemon in the metagame, I will gladly bump it up to D or C-.

Feel free to PM or VM if you just really want to rip me a new one because of how badly something is ranked. Don't bother posting it in here, because it's not helping anything.

 

[skies]

Thanks Gary2346! What are your thoughts on Gengar and Krookodile moving ranks?

 

[Gary]

Thanks Gary2346! What are your thoughts on Gengar and Krookodile moving ranks?

To be honest I completely forgot about Krook, in the next update I'll be sure to bump it to B-, because there were good arguments for it. Gengar on the other hand is iffy. I'll delve more into later.

 

[Baharoth]

Just a few new updates. Also guys keep in mind that pretty much every single rank change is caused by your guys' support. Very rarely have alexwolf and I had to step in and make an executive decision about a certain ranking, even if a majority of the community doesn't agree with it, hell I can't even remember the last time that happened. If you don't agree with a way a certain Pokemon is ranked, then please write up a post about it and explain why. Don't just sit there and blatantly insult alexwolf and I by saying that you question our metagame knowledge simply because you don't agree with a community driven decision. I've had to change the rankings of many Pokemon despite how much I disagreed with them, but I did it anyway because the community wanted me to do it.

Realy? Then i would like to know where the community decision was reached to demote Zapdos, Conk and Raikou. Regarding Zapdos there were 3 posts on the last 15 pages or so, Subject 18 wanted some discussion about it and the only 2 people who answered thought it should stay in A-. Conk and Raikou werent discussed at all as far as i know. Hell the last 10 pages were almost completely filled with the discussions about C ranks, Sylveon, Blissey and Mega Ampharos. So where exactly did that decision happen? Is there another thread beside this one and the VR thread?

I kinda agree with you though, Zapdos isnt on the same level as Chansey and Skarm. The thing is that those 2 dont belong in A- so we should promote them instead of demoting Zapdos. They can easily compare with Ferro or Hippo in the A ranks, id say they are even better.

 

[Ajwf]

As a stall player. Zapdos is an ugly "Last choice" bird pokemon. Remember that stall birds take one of two pokemon: Pinsir mega or Landorus. Zapdos can kinda do both, but excels at neither. It isn't great at anything it SHOULD do (see: Pinsir-mega countering). Rather, it can easily be warn down and destroyed vs most pokemon it should counter. Skarmory and Chansey are in a completely different league. What they "Counter", they counter so damn hard new sets have to be created to get around them.

Pinsir's standard set is breaking Zapdos 25% of the time above 1760. I was checking the usage stats on Pinsir-mega the other day for 1760 to see what counter/checks it had. Zap had roughly 25% switch outs, 50% KOs and then 25% not talked about. Which signifies Zapdos got beat. 25% of the time above 1760. This is a "good player" standard we've been using and Zap can't perform against the pokemon it should counter.

tl;dr, It wasn't good enough a wall to warrant A-.

 

[Baharoth]

Zapdos isnt suited for stall teams to begin with, he is better for balanced teams, stall is better of using Skarm most of the time.

Also i am pretty sure that your interpretation of the usage stats is flawed. Here are Pinsirs stats for last month

Thundurus 62.004 (75.01±3.25) | | (34.9% KOed / 40.1% switched out)| | Skarmory 57.367 (71.59±3.56) | | (24.4% KOed / 47.2% switched out)| | Zapdos 54.188 (72.70±4.63) | | (19.6% KOed / 53.1% switched out)| | Talonflame 54.131 (73.25±4.78) | | (39.0% KOed / 34.3% switched out)

It never sums up to 100%, if the remaining percent mean it got killed that would mean that skarm loses to Pinsir 29% of the time. Somewhat doubt that.

 

[Ajwf]

I believe the way it is interpreted is on the very next turn, it records the action, whether KO or Switch Out. For example, if my Skarmory comes in, the next turn I taunt and pinsir goes for a SD (counter/taunt skarm being my fav variant), the recording of that is in the extra part. However, this is common with skarmory because he can't KO off brave bird. In theory, Zapdos can with Tbolt. Which means Pinsir can sit on Skarm, but can't with Zapdos.

However, also to note is Whirlwind is ignored on that stat, which is a move only skarm would run between the two.

That's my interpretation of it. Could be wrong but I believe it is the first turn the counter/check is in.

 

[Halcyon.]

Realy? Then i would like to know where the community decision was reached to demote Zapdos, Conk and Raikou. Regarding Zapdos there were 3 posts on the last 15 pages or so, Subject 18 wanted some discussion about it and the only 2 people who answered thought it should stay in A-. Conk and Raikou werent discussed at all as far as i know. Hell the last 10 pages were almost completely filled with the discussions about C ranks, Sylveon, Blissey and Mega Ampharos. So where exactly did that decision happen? Is there another thread beside this one and the VR thread?

I kinda agree with you though, Zapdos isnt on the same level as Chansey and Skarm. The thing is that those 2 dont belong in A- so we should promote them instead of demoting Zapdos. They can easily compare with Ferro or Hippo in the A ranks, id say they are even better.

Keep in mind that Gary constantly PMs people and discusses with them on skype, PS, IRC, etc., to ask their opinions on certain ranks that are being discussed. So just because there might be only 3 posts about a Pokemon doesn't mean that there isn't significant support, just that it might now show itself here.

As for bumping Skarm and Chansey up, Skarm I could see going to A, but I just don't think Chansey has what it takes to move up. Chansey just sits there. That's honestly all it does, and in this metagame, sitting there is not the best strategy. So many things have ways of beating Chansey. It is the epitome of "prepared for" right now, which just isn't a good thing on a defensive Pokemon. Skarm is sort of in the same boat, but at the very least it's better (in my opinion) on balanced teams than Chansey is, so I COULD see it moving up but idk. I'd say that's what makes Hippo and Ferrothorn better too, because they're better assets on balance as well as stall, and Chansey seems way too "one trick pony" for me. Usable on stall but not much else. Regardless, I agree with Zapdos moving down simply because it's, as AJ said, not particularly great at doing any of the jobs it's supposed to be doing.

 

[alexwolf]

Updated the OP with the new changes, namely Conkeldurr and Raikou dropping to B, and Zapdos dropping to B+. Pokemon i would like you guys to focus on discussing for the next few days are Krookodile, Breloom, Gengar, and Politoed.

 

[114]

IMO, it's time for Gengar to move to A+ rank.

Last generation was kind of boring for gengar. It was good, as it always was, but only really ran one set: sub + painsplit/disable + Shadow Ball/Focus Shit (sub+3 attacks also existed, using either giga drain/tbolt). This was mostly due to how centralizing the meta was.

This generation gengar is actually much more unpredictable, versatile, and stronger. His life orb shadow balls can be spammed very easily thanks to its amazing neutral coverage now including steels, and he gained a useful and stronger stab attack in sludge bomb. The biggest change is how the meta is realizing how amazing taunt and destiny bond are. On hyper offense teams gengar can take out 2 pokes per game semi-reliably, due to how strong it is and then how it can sack itself with DB with its 110 speed. It will save your team time and time again from Bisharp at +2. You can destiny bond as it sucker punches, then attack it freely because you are faster, or if he sucker punches again he'll kill himself. Chansey has been on the rise, so gengar has also responded with taunt. Taunt + DB also will also be a great asset against Baton Pass teams, since the taunt-bouncer espeon is fucking weak against LO shadow balls. The worst tyranitar can do against gengar is trade; it's no longer a counter. Same goes for heatran if you utilize taunt+DB; it wont be setting up SR and wisping in your face anymore. Seriously this thing is an incredible HO pokemon, taking down a wall guaranteed, and often netting 2+ kills a game easily if played decently, thanks to how almost broken destiny bond can be.

In many ways taunt/db gengar is similar to stall breaker thundy (similar special attacking powers, both have good coverage, both can use taunt to stall break, and both have a "suicide" option DB for gengar and priority t-wave for thundy). Note how Thundy is S-rank.

Gengar's premiere set this gen imo:
Taunt/DB/Shadow Ball/Sludge bomb @ LO, 252/252+ Timid (Some may opt for focus shitstorm instead of one of the support moves/sludgebomb)

And as always, the old sets still work fine, and trick-specs/scarf is still viable.

• 4 Attacks LO (Shadow ball, Tbolt, Giga, Dazzling, Focus asshole, Sludgebomb/wave)
• Sub + 3 Attacks
• Taunt+WoW+Painsplit+Shadow ball
• DB+3 Attacks
• Taunt + 3 attacks
• DB+Taunt+ 2 Attacks
• Subsplit + 2 attacks
• Subtaunt + 2 attacks
• Trick (scaf) + 3 attacks
• Trick (specs) + 3 attacks
• Sash-lead

 

[Gary]

Realy? Then i would like to know where the community decision was reached to demote Zapdos, Conk and Raikou. Regarding Zapdos there were 3 posts on the last 15 pages or so, Subject 18 wanted some discussion about it and the only 2 people who answered thought it should stay in A-. Conk and Raikou werent discussed at all as far as i know. Hell the last 10 pages were almost completely filled with the discussions about C ranks, Sylveon, Blissey and Mega Ampharos. So where exactly did that decision happen? Is there another thread beside this one and the VR thread?

I kinda agree with you though, Zapdos isnt on the same level as Chansey and Skarm. The thing is that those 2 dont belong in A- so we should promote them instead of demoting Zapdos. They can easily compare with Ferro or Hippo in the A ranks, id say they are even better.

Yeah pretty much what Halcyon said. Conk was actually brought up to be lowered by alexwolf in the VR thread yesterday, and I discussed the matter with a few other people on IRC and skype to which they all agreed that Conk should be lowered. Zapdos has actually been brought up several times about whether or not it should be lowered, and it was always kind of back and forth between people not wanting to drop it and others wanting to drop it. I just decided to drop it after talking with alexwolf and Subject, because we agreed that it didn't really fit well at all in A- rank with the rest of them, and knowing a decent sized portion of the community would be happy with it anyway. Alexwolf also brought up Raikou to me and although it hasn't really been discussed in a while, I highly doubt anyone would really mind the drop, simply because there is no denying that Raikou matches up poorly with the rest of the B+ Pokemon, which are far less niche.

So yeah sometimes not all discussion goes on in here, it happens everywhere. Just because it doesn't happen in here, doesn't mean it wasn't discussed at all. Discussion in here doesn't always end up being as organized, so sometimes I have to branch out and get opinions from other people.

 

[I AM THE JAMAICAN BOBSLED TEAM]

Politoed should stay where kabutops is imo, because their viability is linked. they are ALWAYS run on the same team, and politoed needs to be helping kabutops sweep teams. Yes there is kingdra, but kingdra doesn't sweep as well as kabutops does. kabutops goes where politoed goes, politoed goes where kabutops goes, because simply put, they depend on each other(and kingdra).

 

[Peef Rimgar]

Politoed should stay where kabutops is imo, because their viability is linked. they are ALWAYS run on the same team, and politoed needs to be helping kabutops sweep teams. Yes there is kingdra, but kingdra doesn't sweep as well as kabutops does. kabutops goes where politoed goes, politoed goes where kabutops goes, because simply put, they depend on each other(and kingdra).

That's kinda like saying a Chlorophyll user should be A+ because them main setter of Sun is.

I mean, I agree with B+ for Toed, but your reasoning is really flawed

 

[I AM THE JAMAICAN BOBSLED TEAM]

That's kinda like saying a Chlorophyll user should be A+ because them main setter of Sun is.

I mean, I agree with B+ for Toed, but your reasoning is really flawed

What I meant by that, is that Kabutops is REALLY good, but it relies on Politoed. And without Kabutops(or Kingdra), it doesn't have anything to support. Also, Politoed can make rain last 8 turns, and zard y doesn't have chlorophyll users to support because it doesn't need them to be viable.