The power difference is definitely huge compared to Talonflame. Talonflame struggles to break through any physicall wall, while Honchkrow can often break through with some prior damage from SR.
252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 177-211 (43.8 - 52.2%) -- 71.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 141-166 (34.9 - 41%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Also, Honchkrow can still switch up moves. That is huge because you're not necessarily forced out after every hit you dish out. Saying that Talonflame doesn't have problems with Tyranitar "because it has U-turn and Will-o-wisp" is ridiculous. not every set runs U-turn, and definitely not every set runs W-o-W. Also, U-turn won't save you from Pursuit, and W-o-W won't stop T-tar from killing you with Stone Edge. Honchkrow on the other hands takes out every T-tar barring Scarf comfortably with Superpower.
Staraptor generally runs CB which means it can't switch up moves. Getting locked into Quick Attack is awful, and it's still laughably weak. The only reasons to run Staraptor over Honchkrow are the better speed, U-turn and Reckless Brave Bird. As a wallbreaker, no chance against Honch.
I don't know what you're on about with Bisharp, Adamant is definitely the preferred nature to give that extra punch to Sucker Punch as well as giving the most extra points in general due to Bisharps high base Attack. Running Jolly makes you comparatively less fast than it would increase your attack. On a more important note, there's no reason to run Jolly. At all. There's nothing between 232 (on the standard Adamant set) and 262 (Jolly max speed) that Bisharp has to outrun. That statement is complete bs and the only reason you tried to make it look true is because Honchkrow can easily tank Bisharps Sucker Punch, outspeeds it and takes it out with Superpower. Bisharp can't even OHKO back with anything, so I don't know what you even were on about.
And yes Keldeo can beat Honchkrow 1 vs 1. So what? It's never gonna be able to come in on Honchkrow because of Brave Bird. Tbh these arguments are pretty biased and almost entirely based on theorymon. Have you even used Honchkrow in OU may I ask? From the condescending note on the end of your post I would conclude you haven't.
First off can I say I wasn't trying to be condescending. I'm sorry if I came off as condescending to you, but I'm not trying to be. I truly believe there's no reason to use Honchkrow, that's all I'm trying to say. Please, tell me where I'm being condescending or something, because I sure as hell didn't try to be.
Now about this:
I don't know what you're on about with Bisharp, Adamant is definitely the preferred nature to give that extra punch to Sucker Punch as well as giving the most extra points in general due to Bisharps high base Attack. Running Jolly makes you comparatively less fast than it would increase your attack. On a more important note, there's no reason to run Jolly. At all. There's nothing between 232 (on the standard Adamant set) and 262 (Jolly max speed) that Bisharp has to outrun. That statement is complete bs and the only reason you tried to make it look true is because Honchkrow can easily tank Bisharps Sucker Punch, outspeeds it and takes it out with Superpower. Bisharp can't even OHKO back with anything, so I don't know what you even were on about.
Straight from February's usage stats:
Jolly:4/252/0/0/0/252 21.053% | | Adamant:4/252/0/0/0/252 17.648% | | Adamant:252/252/0/0/4/0 16.992% | | Adamant:32/252/0/0/0/224 3.522% | | Adamant:0/252/0/0/4/252 3.159% | | Adamant:0/252/4/0/0/252 2.767% | | Other 34.859%
That statement is complete bs and the only reason you tried to make it look true is because Honchkrow can easily tank Bisharps Sucker Punch, outspeeds it and takes it out with Superpower. Bisharp can't even OHKO back with anything, so I don't know what you even were on about.
First off, calm down. You're trying to make me look condescending and just getting angry yourself.
Second, when and if you do get the moxie boost, you take damage from Life Orb (you're at 90% health now)
Then you Sucker Punch Bisharp instead of superpower because you look at the usage statistics and know that Jolly is common.
So Life Orb recoil from 2 hits, you're at 80% now.
Keep in mind this isn't even factoring in rocks, or ANY prior damage.
So then, safely assuming that the bisharp is jolly, you have sucker punched, and you did this much:
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 136-160 (50.1 - 59%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Remember, you're at 80% after this
252 Atk Life Orb Bisharp Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Honchkrow: 278-329 (81.5 - 96.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
So it's a 100% chance to OHKO.
Also:
Bisharp can't even OHKO back with anything, so I don't know what you even were on about.
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Honchkrow: 305-360 (89.4 - 105.5%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
So I dunno what you're talking about.
Next:
Saying that Talonflame doesn't have problems with Tyranitar "because it has U-turn and Will-o-wisp" is ridiculous. not every set runs U-turn, and definitely not every set runs W-o-W. Also, U-turn won't save you from Pursuit, and W-o-W won't stop T-tar from killing you with Stone Edge.
From the Talonflame analysis:
U-turn does respectable damage to some of Talonflame's best switch-ins, such as Tyranitar and Rotom-W, and gives switch initiative.
Will-O-Wisp provides permanent chip damage to Talonflame's switch-ins and neuters its physically based checks, such as Tyranitar and Landorus-T, making them easier to wear down
but more importantly:
The only Tyranitar set that has any business switching into CB Talonflame repeatedly is support phys def, and that's only because it takes ~20% from U-turn when you factor in the turn of Leftovers upon switching in and the turn of Leftovers as a forced switch occurs. Also, standard support Tyranitar, which doesn't have Stone Edge, is shit on by BU Talonflame (well, every Tyranitar set is, as Talon hits it with the Wisp on the switch and you have a useless Tyranitar. Most Tyranitar are unreliable against CB (this is besides phys def), and all are shit on by BU because of WoW.
This was said by Jukain on page 3 in the talonflame analysis, if you want to check yourself. He/She sums up the argument much better than I can, but yeah. Every set that doesn't run U-turn (BU) gets burned, and CB runs both. SD is rare and doesn't function as well as the other sets anyway. U-turn doesn't save you from pursuit, and WoW doesn't save you from Stone Edge, yes, but Tyranitar usually tries to switch in on Talonflame, and that's when Talonflame beats it. I said Talonflame has "no problems" with Tyranitar, but I meant more on the switch, because that's when Talonflame can really cripple it.
I admit, my wording was confusing and stupid, I'll edit that post.
Next,
Honchkrow on the other hands takes out every T-tar barring Scarf comfortably with Superpower.
Slight nitpick, if Tyranitar is mega and a turn has passed, (and almost all mega tyranitar are DD) then you are outsped (because they run jolly so they can outspeed 115's after a DD) and killed with Ice Punch/Stone Edge. Obviously, if Mega Tyranitar is living Banded Bullet Punch from Scizor and Banded Aqua Jet from Azumarill with just 4 hp evs, it's easily taking a Sucker Punch from Honchkrow, no matter how much moxie boosts you have.
Staraptor generally runs CB which means it can't switch up moves. Getting locked into Quick Attack is awful, and it's still laughably weak. The only reasons to run Staraptor over Honchkrow are the better speed, U-turn and Reckless Brave Bird. As a wallbreaker, no chance against Honch.
So Defensive Rotom-W is deemed as a rather great check to Fly-Spam right? So let's say you use a core of Honchkrow and Talonflame in a Fly-Spam team, because you claim that Honchkrow is better than Banded Raptor as a wallbreaker.
So let's see you break past Rotom-W:
252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 94-110 (30.9 - 36.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 125-148 (41.1 - 48.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
(unreliable because it could WoW)
252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 125-148 (41.1 - 48.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
(You don't kill, usually die to Volt switch/get burned)
Now let's take a look at Raptor
252 Atk Choice Band Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 114-135 (37.5 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers
recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Staraptor Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 127-150 (41.7 - 49.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Staraptor U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 74-88 (24.3 - 28.9%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
but you're smart, and predict the Rotom-W switch in.
252 Atk Choice Band Reckless Staraptor Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 229-270 (75.3 - 88.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Keep in mind that these electric types are one of the best ways to check Fly-Spam, and none of those electric types can stomach a Double Edge from Raptor. Rotom-W is the biggest defensive enemy for fly spam, and Raptor just totally blows it out of the water.
Also keep in mind that Raptor's only use is on Fly-Spam teams, and according to you, it's Honchkrow's only real use as well.
and once again:
Staraptor generally runs CB which means it can't switch up moves. Getting locked into Quick Attack is awful, and it's still laughably weak. The only reasons to run Staraptor over Honchkrow are the better speed, U-turn and Reckless Brave Bird. As a wallbreaker, no chance against Honch.
If you wanted, you could run Life Orb raptor.
252 Atk Life Orb Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 99-117 (32.5 - 38.4%) -- 3.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 94-110 (30.9 - 36.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
Jolly Raptor is STILL stronger than honchkrow, at a MUCH better speed tier, with reliable albeit weaker priority, and a fighting type move with less drawbacks then Superpower. Sure, you miss moxie, but your speed tier is pretty bad with honchkrow and sucker punch is pretty unreliable. Not to mention you still lose to Priority T-wave and Banded Talonflame revenging you, which are the main methods of revenge killing atm.
So with that calc outta the way, we can safely conclude there are two reasons to use Honchkrow over Raptor: Moxie and Sucker Punch
Meanwhile, Raptor has more strength, the ability to PUMMEL electric types:
252 Atk Life Orb Reckless Staraptor Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 199-235 (65.4 - 77.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Has U-turn, has a more reliable priority, a better fighting type move (Close Combat>>>>>Superpower), and a MUCH better speed tier that doesn't make you overreliant on unreliable priority.
And yes Keldeo can beat Honchkrow 1 vs 1. So what? It's never gonna be able to come in on Honchkrow because of Brave Bird. Tbh these arguments are pretty biased and almost entirely based on theorymon. Have you even used Honchkrow in OU may I ask? From the condescending note on the end of your post I would conclude you haven't.
I started to mention Keldeo and Bisharp because those guys are the most common dark resists. I don't think you read carefully enough if you're saying "so what" to the fact that keldeo beats Honch.
And no, I haven't used honchkrow in OU (but I have in UU it's great there) because Staraptor does everything better.
I was replying to someone who suggested Honchkrow to be removed from the thread alltogether. It goes without explaining that Mega Pinsir, Talonflame and Staraptor all perform better than Honchkrow in certain aspects, hence why they're all ranked much higher than Honchkrow. But D rank is too low for something as threatening as Honchkrow.
I don't think I ever said it shoudn't be ranked. Because it definitely should, D is too low for such a powerful pokemon. I in fact suggested C-.
I also disagree with Staraptor "outclassing" Honchkrow. The power difference with Reckless is significant, but so is Staraptors lack of good priority (Quick Attack when you're running CB is not good priority). There's also the problem of being locked in due to CB (e.g. does he go out into Heatran and do I Close Combat, or is he going to Slowbro and do I Brave Bird?) Even if you predict right, sure you get the kill (as would Honchkrow) but you're probably going to be facing an appropriate resist or something faster afterwards, while Honchkrow can switch up moves to take out said resist or knock out the faster mon with Sucker Punch. Did I mention that Moxie makes it a lot easier for Honchkrow to stay in because it becomes so insanely powerful? As a revenge killer I'd rather have Honchkrows priority, and as a wallbreaker I'd rather have the ability to switch up moves. As a sweeper I'd definitely prefer Honch's ability to switch up moves, and Moxie allows it to be an effective sweeper. Staraptor can't really sweep that well because base 100 doesn't cut it and it lacks priority if you're locked into let's say Brave Bird or Double Edge. Also Honchkrow can go mixed, which is worth noting in scenarios vs pokemon like Skarmory or Forretress.
Again, if you so wished, Raptor can go LO too, and it destroys a lot of the arguments you're making about Honchkrow. Honchkrow meanwhile cannot go Banded because Banded Sucker Punch is blatant set-up fodder.
Honchkrow can indeed go mixed, but that means you lose to pokemon you beat with superpower, like Tyranitar and Heatran. Since Honchkrow is going to be on Fly-Spam teams, it's more valuable to beat the more common fly-spam resists instead of skarm, which is easy switch-ins to several other pokemon who can handle it. Raptor btw, also beats these guys.
As a revenge killer Honchkrow really sucks. Sucker Punch is super predictable and the pokemon which you're revenging can just set-up again. If you're slower than Honchkrow and Honchkrow can revenge you, there's no reason to be using him over some other bird. You're super frail, don't have prankster or anything, and Sucker Punch is not a reliable method to "sweep." In short, Sucker Punch will not be saving you from everything that outspeeds you, and most things that do will have the ability to kill you back. Honchkrow
cannot and will not sweep. Honchkrow sucks as a revenger and a sweeper, and should only be a wallbreaker. If you wish to argue otherwise, show us some replays against good players where Honchkrow "sweeps" or reliably "revenge kills," or even a replay where it wallbreaks where a Raptor, LO or Banded, could not have done it.
Raptor isn't trying to sweep or revenge either, like you claim it is. It's a wallbreaker (they both are), and it outperforms Honchkrow in this regard.
Also, as for superpower, do realize that the moxie boost you get from killing that tyranitar or heatran is neutralized from the attack drop you get from superpower? You're very reliant on superpower for coverage too. This means that a good amount of the time you're still left frail and slow.
Heat Wave is a cool tool for breaking past Skarmory (Forretress has no business in OU, not to mention it doesn't resist Flying) but it can ultimately be done easily by other pokemon.
So I'm looking for a flying-type wall breaker to aid talonflame in sweeping a team, because that's what flying spam teams do.
Honchkrow
Pros
Moxie-Situational ability with good reward
Sucker Punch- strong but unreliable priority
Heat Wave- Can easily use other pokemon to handle Skarmory.
Cons
Bad Speed tier
Overreliant on priority
Weaker than Raptor
Cannot dent Rotom-W
Staraptor
Pros:
Stronger than Honchkrow
Faster than Honchkrow
More reliable priority
More consistent ability
Massacres Rotom-W with Double Edge
Cons:
Doesn't have moxie or mixed potential
Weaker Priority.
That about sums it up in my eyes. Feel free to contribute to this too.
I'm getting sick of Srn writing stupidly long posts. He seems to think he is the Pokemon Guru, when in actual fact a lot of his posts are of a low standard. I've noticed that he gets away with it simply because he writes so much that people can not be bothered replying.
I try to be thorough, not much I can do if you don't want to read.