Please do not post more than once at a time. Sucker punch is almost always better than shadow sneak, due to higher base power and larger super-effective coverage. On top of that, Kecleon is an attack target which means you will be able to comfortably fire off sucker-punches. Lum Berry > Leftovers on kecleon in order to beat the things it checks such as Roselia and Jynx, who might possibly try to sleep it. People may also try to toxic/burn to cripple it which nabs it the advantage. It is also a sub-par rocker, it almost always appreciates Thunder Wave or Toxic better to support it's team with status.
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XY NU Theorymon Discussion
- Thread starter DTC
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Shadow sneak for jynx so I can keep my lefties as well as a move to counter a combusken low on health. That is why I run shadow sneak. Also I can counter choice fighting types with shadow sneak.
I can see your point running Shadow Sneak over Sucker Punch, but Jynx is bad example because Jynx is usually running a Choice Scarf set, so Sucker Punch will be hitting harder in that situation. Shadow Sneak giving you the Ghost-type is nice as well, but I wouldn't say it counters Fighting-types all together. Kecleon still can't switch in to most Fighting attacks especially if they're choice banded. Shadow Sneak definitely serves as a good check if Kecleon can safely come in though.
Sucker punch does just as much as Shadow Sneak to fighting types everybody...80/2 is still 40 base power. Which makes it as a whole more useful. Sucker Punch guarantees the kill against Jynx, while shadow sneak requires rocks. You also nab the kill on gardevoir that you normally dont get.
In terms of Shadow Sneak, I wasn't concerned with power. I agree that Sucker Punch is the superior option, but against Choice locked Fighting-types locked into a Fighting move, you can Shadow Sneak and become a Ghost. Power isn't the concern in that situation. That's all I was pointing out. Sucker Punch is definitely better, I was just pointing out to Mandibuzz that Shadow Sneak only served as a check and not a counter to choice locked Fighting-types.
I've heard people say they really like Aurorus, and I've tried it. It honestly let me down too much. It sounds good in theory with 123/72/92 bulk and Refrigerate. But it's defensive typing just sucks too much. It also isn't as strong as you would think, it still hits hard, but not that hard. It's coverage isn't that good or has low BP and it's just freaking slow.
252 Atk Guts Swellow Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aurorus: 168-198 (37.3 - 44%)
With only a bit of prior damage Aurorus can't even come in on Swellow since it will get 2hko'd.
My biggest complaint is it's garbage speed+horrible defensive typing that will make Aurorus not do anything in 1/3rd of the matches.
252 Atk Guts Swellow Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aurorus: 168-198 (37.3 - 44%)
With only a bit of prior damage Aurorus can't even come in on Swellow since it will get 2hko'd.
My biggest complaint is it's garbage speed+horrible defensive typing that will make Aurorus not do anything in 1/3rd of the matches.
Actually only the defensive set doesn't ohko jynx with shadow sneak but I see your point in running sucker punch. Kecleon will be awesome in poke bank nu. Also its still very viable in regular nu with a set with sucker punch/ shadow sneak, return, power-up punch and recover, being able to nab a boost with power-up punch due to its respectable special bulk and from that point on abuse its priority moves and use return if necessary.
Does anyone else think Froadier will be good? It has usable SpA and Spe and it can hit pretty hard with Protean plus LO. It'll probably use surf ice beam u-turn and either grass knot or a HP. Too bad about its bulk though.
The point is, there is no way how Kecleon would get these moves with Protean even postBank; it's only a gen6 ability, and said crucial moves are only aviable in gen5.
What about patching up that silly low Speed with Rock Polish?
Diplodocus Dash
Aurourus @ Expert Belt/Leftovers
Ability: Refrigerate
Timid Nature
248HP/216SpA/48Speed
-Rock Polish
-Nature Power (Tri-Attack Ice)/Freeze-Dry
-Psychic
-Hidden Power Fire
Gets the bulk it needs to take a few NVE hits (read: Tackle from 0- Atk Magikarp). If you scare something out with Aurorus, that is, switch in on a Swellow or something, you can Rock Polish. With the spread I gave you won't outspeed everything but most things are outpaced by this glacier dino. E-Belt is a nice option because most things are hit for SE with those moves (I don't promise you'll KO anything without STAB Ice moves). Leftovers barely increases survivability.
...
Eventually someone will make this dino viable.
I much prefer physical Aurorus if I'm honest. Ice Return, Earthquake, Stone Edge? YES. It serves me well on WiFI despite Aurorus's Base 77 Attack (for reference, lower than Geodude).
Kecleon gets Shadow Sneak and Sucker Punch via level up, and all Egg moves (Recover) will be available to it via Smeargle. Most of its tutor moves, bar say Aqua Tail, don't help it tremendously as imo Kecleon would much prefer neutral coverage than super effective coverage if it wants to do any Power-up Punch sweeping.
What does Psychic hit? Ancientpower is better so you can do away with Fire-types, or Thunderbolt to hits Waters if Nature Power is used. Even though Aurorus has Rock Polish and its offensive typing is pretty damn fantastic, it seems more and more awkward each day I look at it.
- It's slow enough where that typing really becomes as much, if not more as a burden than a blessing.
- Its 99 Special Attack stat is (barely) decent and its movepool is colorful (yeah that's the word I'd use), but kinda 'meh' in terms of both power and coverage, Refrigerate Nature Power / Snow Warning Blizzard being your only true power move (Aurorus isn't strong enough to make Freeze Dry its main attack).
- Its physical movepool is stronger and more straight to the point, but 77 Attack is very average in terms of sweeping.
It could do okay in NU due to its STABs alone (they cover a lot I'll tell you that much), but difficulty in its need to set up hinders it greatly. Those stats are in all the wrong places.
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The problem I have with this set is that it's not really unique in terms of what it's doing. Why would I use Rock Polish Aurorus, when Rock Polish Regice exists and has a less crippling typing and better coverage? They both get Boltbeam coverage, but Regice gets Focus Blast as well making Rock Polish Aurorus seem less appealing to me. It's just a lot easier to set up and sweep with Regice than it is with Aurorus.
The pokemons they will not raise of the tier only because of defog.
The only pokemon that has been listed as moving up due to defog is Mandibuzz who almost undoubtedly will move up. Mandibuzz not only supports the team via hazard removal but it also has excellent bulk and offensive presence with STAB foul play without the need to invest in it's attacking stats. PO which has a slightly different meta game right now, has Mandibuzz falling in the OU range of usage, so there is no way in hell Mandibuzz is gonna drop all the way to NU on PS. Speaking of defog users, Skuntank seems like a boss defog user, as it can switch into t-spikes, absorb them, and defog the rest of the hazards away, while still picking of threats with sucker punch, or preventing set up with taunt.
Volbeat can be a really nice baton passer, with good special bulk (with investment) and access to priority encore, tail glow and baton pass. Just got an electabuzz sweep because of it. It also has plenty of opportunities to set up if sr aren't on the field.
I noticed in the minitour that Weakness Policy Golem was pretty damn great because of Sturdy and its common weaknesses, so I was thinking about doing something similar with standard Carracosta.
Carracosta @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Sturdy
Jolly / Adamant Nature
Evs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
-Shell Smash
-Waterfall
-Stone Edge
-Aqua Jet
The idea for this set is similar to Weakness Policy Golem in that it takes advantage of Costa's common weaknesses and Sturdy to gain the +2 from Weakness Policy. A lot of the mons that are used to deal with Shell Smash Costa, such as Rotom-S, Tangela, and Serperior, tend to aim at Costa's weaknesses to get past it. With Sturdy intact, you can take at least one hit from the things that normally threaten Costa, set up Shell Smash, and proceed to OHKO and 2HKO the majority of the tier at +4 Attack. A Jolly nature will probably be preferred because you don't really need the extra Attack from Adamant anymore so the extra speed from Jolly will be more important. With Jolly, Costa outspeeds base 113 mons and below, so basically Serperior and below, meaning once Costa's at +4 Attack and +2 Speed there's not many things that outspeed it and are safe from Aqua Jet. The only relevant thing that outspeeds +2 Costa and has priority to knock it out if Sturdy is activated is Swellow with Quick Attack. Once Costa's set up, even Alomomola and Tangela are 2HKO'd. The only thing I can think of that can effectively wall Costa at +4 is Max Def Seismitoad who is still a 64% chance to 2HKO with Stone Edge after rocks. Even most scarfers can't revenge Costa because of Aqua Jet, with the only relevant scarfer that can safely revenge it being Jynx. It will take some prediction to activate Weakness Policy and set up a Smash, but it seems feasible enough and has great surprise factor.
Carracosta @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Sturdy
Jolly / Adamant Nature
Evs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
-Shell Smash
-Waterfall
-Stone Edge
-Aqua Jet
The idea for this set is similar to Weakness Policy Golem in that it takes advantage of Costa's common weaknesses and Sturdy to gain the +2 from Weakness Policy. A lot of the mons that are used to deal with Shell Smash Costa, such as Rotom-S, Tangela, and Serperior, tend to aim at Costa's weaknesses to get past it. With Sturdy intact, you can take at least one hit from the things that normally threaten Costa, set up Shell Smash, and proceed to OHKO and 2HKO the majority of the tier at +4 Attack. A Jolly nature will probably be preferred because you don't really need the extra Attack from Adamant anymore so the extra speed from Jolly will be more important. With Jolly, Costa outspeeds base 113 mons and below, so basically Serperior and below, meaning once Costa's at +4 Attack and +2 Speed there's not many things that outspeed it and are safe from Aqua Jet. The only relevant thing that outspeeds +2 Costa and has priority to knock it out if Sturdy is activated is Swellow with Quick Attack. Once Costa's set up, even Alomomola and Tangela are 2HKO'd. The only thing I can think of that can effectively wall Costa at +4 is Max Def Seismitoad who is still a 64% chance to 2HKO with Stone Edge after rocks. Even most scarfers can't revenge Costa because of Aqua Jet, with the only relevant scarfer that can safely revenge it being Jynx. It will take some prediction to activate Weakness Policy and set up a Smash, but it seems feasible enough and has great surprise factor.
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Has anyone considered Assault Vest Regice?
Regice @ Assault Vest
Ability: Clear Body
Modest Nature
248HP/216SpA/44SpDef
-Charge Beam
-Ice Beam/Thunderbolt
-Flash Cannon
-Focus Blast
Charge Beam for discrete boosting but maybe T-Bolt is more your cup of tea. Hits anything not named Shedinja for at least neutral. Basically indestructible specially but likes Wish support (from Alomomola for a very nice defensive core!). After one Charge Beam boost, you're ending things left right and centre.
I think I'm Satan
Regice @ Assault Vest
Ability: Clear Body
Modest Nature
248HP/216SpA/44SpDef
-Charge Beam
-Ice Beam/Thunderbolt
-Flash Cannon
-Focus Blast
Charge Beam for discrete boosting but maybe T-Bolt is more your cup of tea. Hits anything not named Shedinja for at least neutral. Basically indestructible specially but likes Wish support (from Alomomola for a very nice defensive core!). After one Charge Beam boost, you're ending things left right and centre.
I don't like the idea of Assault Vest Regice. Regice's problem is not that it doesn't have the Special Defense to wall things, but the lack of recovery + huge vulnerability to hazards. Assault Vest just kind of makes that problem worse. Also, Flash Cannon is useless on that set, so Thunderbolt would be a better option.
That said, Regice is pretty cool this gen, just because of the Sleep mechanics change. I liked Rest / Sleep Talk / Ice Beam / Thunderbolt Regice in a few test battles I've had so far.
I could compare Aurourus to a certain Pokemon from the last NU, Stoutland. Both aren't really that terrible in stats, but are generally outclassed by everything in terms of what it's trying to do. Stoutland was facing very heavy competition with Kangaskhan and Miltank, but this time, Aurourus seems to be outclassed by Regice when it comes to Rock Polish sets (Maybe it could have a niche with Snow Warning Blizzspam, but who knows). However, Aurourus has a worse defensive type than Stoutland, but both have a Fighting-weakness.
Or maybe I'm comparing Aurourus to the wrong mon. Who knows? (And thinking about it, does Aurourus seem like a good Scarfer on paper? Also Stoutland got an attack stat boost.)
Or maybe I'm comparing Aurourus to the wrong mon. Who knows? (And thinking about it, does Aurourus seem like a good Scarfer on paper? Also Stoutland got an attack stat boost.)
perplexingpool
Banned deucer.
BlizzSpam Scarf Aurorus seems pretty good to me. It gets some nice coverage moves as well.
With Kangaskhan moving out, and with the attack boost I think Stoutland should be a fairly good poke.with a great offensive move pool, and with it no longer being out-classed by Kanghaskhan or miltank (its more powerful than miltank and has better coverage with crunch, and super power, with return and a fang move topping it off) and I can see it as a good choice scarf or band user as well as a good bulky life orb poke.
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Scarf Aurorus would be terrible in NU because it's weak to SR, can't even outspeed Serperior with max investment, and outside of Blizzard isn't all that strong. The only thing this thing would be useful for is setting up hail (assuming Snow Warning gets released) and pretty much dying because its low Speed and horrible defensive typing near ensures it won't be doing much else.
Aurorus @ Icy Rock
Trait: Snow Warning
EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Modest Nature
- Encore
- Thunder Wave
- Blizzard
- Thunderbolt
This is the only set I can see working because it can Encore stuff into useless moves like Stealth Rock or Protect, then get a free switch into something like Jynx or Rotom-F to abuse the hail while potentially paralyzing a few things with Thunder Wave. Aurorus has just enough Speed to make this work as it can outspeed almost all relevant SR setters in the meta bar Seismitoad and Encore them, and with max Speed it outspeeds pretty much all relevant walls.
Aurorus @ Icy Rock
Trait: Snow Warning
EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Modest Nature
- Encore
- Thunder Wave
- Blizzard
- Thunderbolt
This is the only set I can see working because it can Encore stuff into useless moves like Stealth Rock or Protect, then get a free switch into something like Jynx or Rotom-F to abuse the hail while potentially paralyzing a few things with Thunder Wave. Aurorus has just enough Speed to make this work as it can outspeed almost all relevant SR setters in the meta bar Seismitoad and Encore them, and with max Speed it outspeeds pretty much all relevant walls.
Kanga probably wont leave nu due to not gaining any noticeable buffs besides the banned kangaskanite
Kanga is still too good for nu in my opinion and stout land still hits harder
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