Why play BW if we keep taking out the additions to the metagame?
First Swift Swim, then Blaziken, and now, Drizzle. New threats made Pokemon like Latios, Garchomp and Salamence OU, but they're only Pokemon, not strategies/playstyles.
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Why complex bans are a waste. + My proposal (friendly discussion)
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First Swift Swim, then Blaziken, and now, Drizzle. New threats made Pokemon like Latios, Garchomp and Salamence OU, but they're only Pokemon, not strategies/playstyles.
Strategies and playstyles can be broken just the same as pokemon.
If a strategy/playstyle is broken we should get rid of it. That doesn't need complex bans to do, either.
B/W has been out for over a year now. The po smogon server has been out sense november. Weather has been through 4 suspect tests. It's not new.
i dont understand why everyone is saying rain should be nerfed...
and i can't understand even more bullshit like:with rain around you can freely spam thunders,hurricanes and high powered water moves...
how is it freely when you must devote one of your 6 teamslots???
there is a reason that poiltoed and ninetales were nu before...these 2 pokes are more often than not more of a liability than anything else...of 'course the benefits of rain are great but the downfall is obvious and big!you must use their sucky inducers and babyshit them fro the whole match...
also when you play in an other weather thunder and hurricane spamming suddenly doesn't sound so easy and overpowered(i think that both have an accuracy of 50% in sand)...if you can't manage to keep your weather up and you have a drizzle team then you are at a big disadvantage 'cause the team that you made wanting to abuse rain now gets fucked up by the lack of it...
and finally rain offense(i am talking about them 'cause only these kind of rain teams are accused of being broken) teams have very poor defensive synergy...why?'cause you must use politoed...that is already 1 water poke...which is weak to what?grass and electric...and let's see the most common rain abusers:tornadus,starmie,thundurus,gyarados,rotom-w and even swampert with its notorious cb set...
so almost all of the abusers are weak to grass and electric except from thundurus...and also usually every rain offense relies too much on ferrothorn to handel everything...so after this bitch is gone rain teams fall apart so easily...
on the other hand sand teams are so much more reliable and all around good.ah and something important:you play with 6 potent pokes.you don't play with 5 potent and 1 garbage poke...
also sand teams have so much better type synergy and don't fall aprt quite as easily..
and finally and most importantly the can play well even outside of their respective weather...they can do so in a degree that rain teams cannot even imagine...
So,to close this,before anyone says again that drizzle powers up so many pokes penalty free,pls guys think twice...!
and i can't understand even more bullshit like:with rain around you can freely spam thunders,hurricanes and high powered water moves...
how is it freely when you must devote one of your 6 teamslots???
there is a reason that poiltoed and ninetales were nu before...these 2 pokes are more often than not more of a liability than anything else...of 'course the benefits of rain are great but the downfall is obvious and big!you must use their sucky inducers and babyshit them fro the whole match...
also when you play in an other weather thunder and hurricane spamming suddenly doesn't sound so easy and overpowered(i think that both have an accuracy of 50% in sand)...if you can't manage to keep your weather up and you have a drizzle team then you are at a big disadvantage 'cause the team that you made wanting to abuse rain now gets fucked up by the lack of it...
and finally rain offense(i am talking about them 'cause only these kind of rain teams are accused of being broken) teams have very poor defensive synergy...why?'cause you must use politoed...that is already 1 water poke...which is weak to what?grass and electric...and let's see the most common rain abusers:tornadus,starmie,thundurus,gyarados,rotom-w and even swampert with its notorious cb set...
so almost all of the abusers are weak to grass and electric except from thundurus...and also usually every rain offense relies too much on ferrothorn to handel everything...so after this bitch is gone rain teams fall apart so easily...
on the other hand sand teams are so much more reliable and all around good.ah and something important:you play with 6 potent pokes.you don't play with 5 potent and 1 garbage poke...
also sand teams have so much better type synergy and don't fall aprt quite as easily..
and finally and most importantly the can play well even outside of their respective weather...they can do so in a degree that rain teams cannot even imagine...
So,to close this,before anyone says again that drizzle powers up so many pokes penalty free,pls guys think twice...!
It's new in the sense that DW abilities are being released gradually, while we've used to sand for eight long years.
lmitchell0012
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Why do I have to give a reason?? If it has a hard counter, then it's clearly not broken. What more is there to say??
Me neither, Rain is nerfed. Remember the Aldaron Proposal?
That's not bs, it's true. Thunder/Hurricanes are coming from either one of the Genies(Base 111 speed means they can spam whatever they wany under Rain) or Dragonite(bulky enough to get a few off) and under Rain most if not all water moves become high powered.
The teamslot you give is well worth it. Getting rid of a water/fire weakness, giving a free STAB to anything with a water/fire move, (for Rain) giving Dragonite and the genies reliable thunders/hurricanes, and activating abilities like Chlorophyll or dry skin(which gives Toxicroak essentially free subs) is well worth a team slot. Besides, Specs Politoed isn't exactly dead weight, it's moves are powerful as hell under Rain too. Btw, lol babysh*t. I think you meant babysit right?
That's why you preserve the weather starter and try to KO the other one. The spamming isn't the overpowered part, it's part of an overpowered strategy. Also, don't forget that Rain teams are typically>Sun teams and if you knock out Tyranitar(not that hard with Rain abusers) then you're golden.
Excuse me? Weak to grass and electric. First off, grass. You were just complaining about how spamming Hurricane was unreliable and but ironically this is the best example of why to do it. It fixes some of the defensive gaps in Rain teams by taking out those grass types. Electric? I don't know what uses Electric besides Rain abusers but Dragonite and Ferrathorn do take electric hits well, j/s.
Politoed isn't garbage. If it was, then why would it be 10% of OU? Ninetails might suck but outside of beneficial weather, Sand's most notorious sweeper kinda blows too.
Lol what? They all fail miserably to fighting, water, and especially ice, which Rain Teams almost always have.
This I concede, except in the case of Excadrill but you have a point here. This is why Sand is the most used in OU, it can go toe to toe with weather without being overspecialized to the point of irrelevance against the rest of the meta.
I never said penalty free, but there aren't any real penalties you mentioned that aren't remedied by sober teambuilding...
The problem with complex bans is not the effect they have on the metagame itself, but the precedent that they set. If we can ban x+y, why not ban w+z or q+r. It will turn from a system of banning things to a system of nerfing things until we can use the things we like without them being over powered. I have said it many times, but our job should be to take the metagame and place bans to make it a good competitive game, not to manipulate things to make it exactly what a few people want/are used to.
It is for this reason that I believe all bans should be Pokemon only unless there are extenuating circumstances (if an ability broke all Pokemon with it i.e. Moody, then we can ban the ability). If things like SwSw + Drizzle make Pokemon broken, then ban the SwSw users that are made broken by it, not the combo. Sure people might think Kingdra being Uber is stupid, but it doesn't have to make logical sense to an outside viewer, as long as it makes competitive sense.
It is for this reason that I believe all bans should be Pokemon only unless there are extenuating circumstances (if an ability broke all Pokemon with it i.e. Moody, then we can ban the ability). If things like SwSw + Drizzle make Pokemon broken, then ban the SwSw users that are made broken by it, not the combo. Sure people might think Kingdra being Uber is stupid, but it doesn't have to make logical sense to an outside viewer, as long as it makes competitive sense.
I mirror Miscellaneous's sentiments here. Outright ban of Pokemon or Ability disrupts the metagame drastically. Banning Drizzle / Politoed in Round 2 would have been a very rash decision. By banning Drizzle you are not simply banning an Ability, but an entire playstyle. Aldaron's Proposal provided a logical, rational, and even scientific way of dealing with the problem - remove the broken variable (not any additional variables associated with it), observe the impact on the metagame, and then act accordingly.
Seems people are going against the idea of complex ban for philosophical reasons (ie "nerf"ing strategies are NOT allowed!) or because of its novelty (we've never done this before!). In fact, history of Pokemon has been full of these nerfs and novelties. Latias / Latios without Soul Dew under Soul Dew clause (effectively nerfing Latias / Latios) during Gen III and the No Sleep Perish Trapping clause (Mean Look + Perish Song + Sleep Move) during Gen II.
This is a new gen, guys, with new problems. With new problems, we must not be afraid of adjusting our ways of dealing with these unprecedented threats. Weather had never really been an issue in OU, but this gen it was brought down from Ubers to OU. Weather is a complex issue, influencing the playing field the match takes place, and thus providing certain teams advantages and others disadvantages. It involves an interaction between Abilities. Simply banning the Weather Summoner or the Weather Abuser can be the simpler and correct decision, but may very well be a rash and crude decision (for the sake of "simplicity / consistency"). Weather especially deserves a more careful inspection, and sometimes a combination ban is the best route in eradicating the problem.
Some players have in fact concluded that this current metagame is balanced. Others have concluded that Drizzle itself is indeed overpowered (not simply Drizzle + Swift Swim). If voters with reqs vote that Drizzle is not broken this round (although that remains uncertain), Aldaron's Combination ban will exist indefinitely for the good of the metagame.
Never was it agreed upon that Aldaron Proposal was to be "temporary." Such a statement is merely a rumor spread in the Suspect Discussion thread. There is no need to lift the ban if it effectively solves the issue at hand.
Rather than focusing on the odd nature of a particular combination ban, pay closer attention to the problem at hand and how to deal with it. And of course the impact on the metagame.
Garchomp vs Sand Veil + Sandstream
As for Garchomp vs Sand Veil vs Sand Veil + Sandstream ban, it is arguably a more isolated case than Drizzle + Swift Swim issue. Only Garchomp effectively abuse Sand Veil to intolerable levels. I am relatively indifferent about this case (meaning I can see both sides). I can understand people wanting a ban on Sand Veil or Sand Veil + Sandstream due to the 100% activation of this retarded ability, because of the pairing of Ttar and Garchomp. However many find such ability bans as absurd, since Garchomp is the sole abuser in OU.
Personally, I prefer to ban Sand Veil + Sand Stream because it would have a lesser impact on the metagame (greater impact - loss of a very distinct OU Pokemon), and we can observe the influence of Garchomp on the metagame with less Sand Veil activation. Not only would Ttar's usage fall with 1 of the top Sand Abusers prohibited in tandem, but also the usage of a particular set, Subchomp, and its blatant exploitation of Ttar's Sandstream would also drastically decrease.
Why not simply blanket ban Sand Veil? This is simpler, but leads to absurd consequences, such as the loss of access to Gen IV TMs and Tutor Moves, as well as a ban of Cacturne from OU.
Now a valid argument would be that Sand Veil + Sandstream Combination ban has a larger impact than a loss of Garchomp, because it would affect other Pokemon. However, if you think practically, I believe we all can agree that loss of Garchomp would be a much greater impact than the inability of Sand Veil usage in Sandstream for Sandslash (which has Sand Rush), Gliscor (which has Poison Heal), Dugtrio (which has Arena Trap) or Cacturne. IMO, the influence of the combination ban on the metagame is minimal, and we are simply eliminating the prominent luck out of the game.
Smashpassing
I feel it is early to render this particular strategy as suspect, since it seems like a relatively new, manageable, and unpopular strategy. However, if it does become an intolerable issue next round, I wouldn't call out on people who nominate this combination of moves to be banned. I wouldn't ban Gorebyss, Smeargle, or Espeon due to its association, since they have so many viable uses. Gorebyss is still a nasty Sweeper with Shell Smash, and Espeon has extreme utility in Magic Bounce. If Smash + Passing is a problem, ban Smash Pass. Don't Ban Shell Smash / Gorebyss / Espeon for the sake of "simplicity / avoid setting precedents." If you haven't noticed the req voters are not stupid. They wont nominate Level 65 Mewtwo into OU. Relax.
Speed Boost Blaziken
This is a very special case, the most isolated case of all the examples. It doesn't involve weather and Speed Boost isn't inherently retarded. Whatever decision we choose (banning Blaziken as a whole or only SPeed Boost Blaziken) may most likely not disrupt the metagame significantly (as opposed to banning Garchomp / Drizzle). I personally would support the release of Blaze Blaziken, since it probably will be viable in OU with access to Drought, Flame Charge, and / or HJK. However, I can perfectly understand here where the complications from adding this specification to our OU banlist would outweigh the potential viability of Blaze Blaziken in OU.
Although this is a done issue this round (since Ability + Pokemon ban is not allowed), I would not hesitate to nominate Blaze Blaziken whenever it is aloud, since I believe "complexity" should be a non-issue if it makes the metagame more diverse and balanced.
IN SHORT: Opposing Combination Bans due to its "complexity (what complexity?)," "setting precedent," "nerfing (lol, nothing new, blasphemous, or avoidable - you are already nefing some playstyle by banning Pokemon)," and not for its influence on the metagame is ridiculous. Aldaron's Proposal has been an excellent attempt at balancing the metagame while keeping a playstyle viable. Ban Playstyle if it is broken in its entirety. Be open to Combination Bans that offers flexibility and potentially better impact to the metagame.
What we have done in the past is irrelevant though. The complex thing in Gen2 might be absurd, but that has no effect on what we should do now. And Soul Dew was not complex at all. We banned an item. Not Item + Pokemon. Sure it only affected 2 Pokemon, but it was a simple ban.
The thing is, once you start nerfing things with complex bans, where do you stop. People act like, well it's only in this case that it is necessary, but if I can prove a current Uber isn't Uber with a complex ban on its moves or abilities, how can you say that is wrong if you support other complex bans. People are just using them to try to get their favorite things to stay OU when they may be broken.
If Sand Veil breaks Garchomp when it is in sand, ban Garchomp. If it breaks all users, ban Sand Veil. Trying nerf Garchomp or Sand Veil to keep them OU is stupid and shows favoritism bias. If you can keep a broken Pokemon or ability OU by nerfing it, why can't I nerf my favorite Uber to keep it OU. I like Moody, why not unban it and ban Moody + Substitute. Or unban Shaymin-S but prevent it from having both Air Slash and Seed Flare together. All using complex bans does is show that we are biased to certain Pokemon or playstyles, and that we don't want to change.
Disclamer: I do not necessarily think any of the aforementioned things are broken (or not broken as it were). I was merely using them as examples.
This is not favoritism - this is identifying the ACTUAL problem and dealing with it. Please stop using favoritism as your argument, since it is lame and can go both ways. People may simply nominating manageable Pokemon to be banned, simply because they are sick of facing it.
And again, we are not dumb. Majority of the voters intrinsically know what is wrong. Moody + Substitute is not the problem, Moody is intolerable by nature. Shaymin-S with Serene Grace tipped it over the edge. Shaymin-S was therefore banned, since Shaymin-S without Serene Grace does not exist.
And again, we are not dumb. Majority of the voters intrinsically know what is wrong. Moody + Substitute is not the problem, Moody is intolerable by nature. Shaymin-S with Serene Grace tipped it over the edge. Shaymin-S was therefore banned, since Shaymin-S without Serene Grace does not exist.
But it is favoritism. If Chomp is broken in anyway, but San Veil is not inherently broken, why are we not banning it? Because people don't want Garchomp to be Uber. That's all complex bans ever really are. The same problem can always be solved with simple bans, but that requires banning things that people just instinctively don't want to be Uber, despite competitive evidence. Seriously, name one existing or proposed complex ban that can't be solved with a simple ban, and give a reason why it can't other then "Pokemon X shouldn't be Uber." If something is broken then it is Uber; just because we have a predetermined notion of what is and is not Uber does not mean we should alter our policies around such a foolish and unsupported idea.
And for the record, if you think any Moody Pokemon is broken without Sub, you are mistaken.
And for the record, if you think any Moody Pokemon is broken without Sub, you are mistaken.
If you happen to notice, the argument for banning Garchomp is its abuse of Sand Veil.
Competitive evidence shows that Sand Veil has pushed Garchomp over the top. You make it sound as if banning thing is the natural way of Pokemon. Why are we so eager to ban an entire Pokemon, when the issue at hand is a Sand Veil miss?
Aldaron's Proposal. It dealt with the Drizzle + Swift Swim issue during Round 2. Many people were rash and proposed the outright ban of Drizzle Politoed, because they were sick of the omnipresent and brainless Drizzle Teams. However, when we looked at most of the complaints on the Suspect Discussion thread, the main issue was Swift Swim in conjuction with Drizzle. So Aldaron's Proposal was suggested and effectively passed, and no body complained about Drizzle + Swift Swim anymore.
It has also helped isolate the formerly abused Drizzle + Swift Swim strategy from the equation and has allowed to observe whether the direct effects of Drizzle (Rain-boosted Water moves, Rain-weakened Fire moves, and perfect accuracy Thunder / Hurricane) were enough to make Perma-Rain overwhelming. Without Aldaron's Proposal, we were not able to justify the brokenness (or the non-brokenness) of Perma-Rain as a strategy.
Like I've said before, the problem is not whether or not Moody with or without a Sub is broken or not. The problem was that the strategy involving Moody has become problematic. Whether Substitute or Protect has facilitated the use of Moody is irrelevant. The root of the problem is apparently the ability that introduced enormous luck variables into a match.
Do you seriously not see the objective and careful intent of our combination (and simple) bans?
Why are we not solving the problem and instead disrupting the metagame more than necessary?
Shell Smash + Baton Pass can be managed by Priority moves and Focus Sashes, or better, countered entirely by Imposter Ditto in DW. As far as I'm aware, Focus Sashes and Priority moves are quite common, so it wouldn't be THAT overcentralising would it?
I'd say Aldaron's Proposal is like the opening of Pandora's Box. It led the way to all these arguments on complex bans. I would have preferred if Smogon sticked with the simpler "Pokemon ban" and "Item Ban". When Moody came, I agree that we had no other choice but to enforce an "Ability ban". The Drizzle+Swift Swim is our first complex ban, but this "Ability+Ability ban" is more acceptable than the outrageous bans people have been clamoring for for the past weeks.
For example:
Aldaron's Proposal has been done. Nothing can be done about it anymore. Even if it's lifted it had opened the way for complex bans. But I'm hoping we will all not be carried away and get a grip.
For example:
- "Pokemon+Ability ban" eg. Blaze Blaziken allowed
- "Move+Move ban" eg. Shell Smash+Baton Pass not allowed
- "Pokemon+Move ban" eg. Salamence+Draco Meteor not allowed
- "Pokemon+Item ban" eg. Latios+Choice Specs not allowed (Soud Dew falls under Item Ban
- "Move+Item ban" eg. Trick/Switcheroo+ Swimming Goggles (which doesn't exist by the way, only for purpose of example)
Aldaron's Proposal has been done. Nothing can be done about it anymore. Even if it's lifted it had opened the way for complex bans. But I'm hoping we will all not be carried away and get a grip.
That is the argument. But if SV makes it broken, then it should go. Unless SV is just inherently broken in which case SV should go. All you are saying is that Garchomp is broken but should not go. Isn't that exactly what favoritism is. Why are you saying that it is broken but then say it should not be banned?
And specifically to
That's called Pokemon nerfing, and as I said, that is fine, if I can nerf my favorite Ubers to make them OU. You can't have it both ways.
Actually I can easily think of a way to solve the SwSw problem without Alderon's proposal. It's called Suspect Testing Swift Swimmers. Or did everyone forget how Smogon works. Sure it might have been a huge problem at the time, but if we had actually taken the time to do the proper testing, maybe we wouldn't have ended up with a system that prevents non broken Pokemon like Seaking from competing. Maybe with the top SwSwers gone we would end up with a rain dominated metagame, but as long as there are no broken Pokemon, who cares. 4th gen was sand dominated, why can't 5th gen be rain?
Using luck as reasoning is never a good idea. I like luck. It is opinion. Moody may have been the root of the problem, but without Substitute, it would not have been broken. That is no different than SVless Garchomp. But you are saying that nerfing Moody should not be allowed, where as nerfing Garchomp should. Your argument is completely self contradictory.
I see the intent, but I also see that there is not a single complex ban that could not be better served with a simple ban.
I'd like to ask you the exact same question
What makes you think that Sand Veil is the only factor for Garchomp. If that were the case it would be broken on everything. However, it's not which means a blanket Sand Veil ban and a Sand Veil + Sandstream ban makes no sense. Your getting rid of Sand Veil for everything just to get rid of Sand Veil for Garchomp. Sand Veil itself isn't a problem. It's like Paralysis in that it's haxy but it's not bad.
To ban Sand Veil + Garchomp doesn't make any sense either. Your basing that ban around the fact that it's dream world will be released but you don't know if it ever will be. Besides if this were to happen, you may as well unban Blaze Blaziken. It's the exact same thing
Therefore the most obvious choice is to ban Garchomp. It's a combination of Sand Veil and other things with Sand Veil that breaks Garchomp. Therefore Garchomp is the problem, not Sand Veil.
Because, as I stated above, Garchomp is the problem not Sand Veil. It's a combination of Garchomp and Sand Veil and other things that make Sand Veil broken. If you wanna say Sand Veil is the problem, you may as well say Substitute is the problem. Without Substitute, Garchomp couldn't properly abuse Sand Veil. Or how about Swords Dance. That allows it to set up. Without Swords Dance it couldn't properly abuse Sand Veil.
Garchomp uses Sand Veil to set up. Nothing else can do that successfully. Garchomp can sweep through entire teams by setting up Using Substitute until Sand veil makes a miss and uses Swords Dance to sweep. If you get rid of any one of those factors, you wont be able to sweep with Garchomp. Therefore I can just as easily say that Substitute or Swords Dance is the problem. But I wont because it's not Swords Dance, Substitute, or Sand Veil that break Garchomp. It's the entire combination that breaks Garchomp. Therefore Garchomp itself is broken.
That was 2 Suspect tests ago. We did the complex ban and people still complained about Drizzle's brokenness. Drizzle is still broken even without Swift Swim. Therefore the problem is Drizzle.
It's no irrelevant in the slightest. Without Substitute Moody couldn't be properly abused. Without protect Moody couldn't be properly abused. It's the combination of these things that make moody broken but Moody is broken on everything that has Substitute and protect.
All I see is nerfing something to keep it in a tier. Whether it's because you don't want it banned or some other reason is irrelevant. Your intentionally nerfing something to keep it in a tier. Period. The complex bans set the precedence for other complex bans. As soon as the Aldaron Proposal happened everyone got more ban happy. Somewhere in the back of peoples minds their tying the Aldaron Proposal with the Sand Veil + Sand Stream, Sand Veil + Garchomp, Sand Rush + Sandstream, Blaziken + Speed Boost, and other complex bans that I haven't even seen.
Complex bans are a joke. They directly nerf a pokemon to keep it in nerf a pokemon to keep it in a tier. I read someone (I think it was you) say that even simple bans nerf stuff but that's always gonna happen when something is banned. At least with Simple Bans, your getting rid of something that's harmful to the metagame. Complex bans don't get rid of the problem, they just hide it.
Drizzle is disrupting the metagame. Garchomp is disrupting the metagame. Whether or not you believe me is irrelevant. These are may views just as your speaking your views. What it comes down to is how will people be influenced by our posts. Would they turn to a simple ban or a complex ban?
In Gen4, Salamence got countered by Cresselia. It couldn't KO Cresselia, even with a +1 LO Outrage. Even with SR support. Cresselia could switch in, and Ice Beam Mence to death.
In Gen4, Quagsire countered Kyogre. It could absorb Water Spout and Thunder for free, and had the bulk to get Ice Beamed a few times. In response, it could Yawn or Encore or Toxic the Kyogre, thus crippling it or forcing it out.
Does that mean those Pokemon weren't broken back in Gen4? Hell no.
Having a single hard counter does not mean that a Pokemon isn't broken!
I think Drizzle + Swift Swim is a threat but if it's banned (which it is) you also need to ban Drought + Chlorophyl. It's exactly the same as Swift Swim but with sun. Also it doesn't ban Rain Dance + Swift Swim which is also weird. So I think have no weatherlimitations because it's just to much hassle and anti-weather teams can also be used to prevent weather teams being too dominant.
Chlorophyll + Drought is not the same, because Chlorophyll Pokemon don't get a free +1 boost on their STAB moves, which is what broke Swift Swimmers in tandem with doubled Speed.
Rain Dance + Swift Swim is not banned because it requires the opponent to use a turn to set it up, and it can be stalled out, which prevents it from being over-powered.
If everyone had to use anti-weather or weather, the metagame would get pretty stale. As it is now, non-weather is viable, but you have to be really careful with teambuilding to cover all your bases. Trust me, in a metagame like Round 2, this is not the case; Swift Swim was completely broken.
I've heard people say Smogon's trying to make Gen 5 competitive play too much like that of Gen 4.