Venusaur (QC 0/3)

[PK Gaming]

• To start, I don't think there's any point in mentioning Venusaur's effectiveness as a sun sweeping, as its not pertinent to how Venusaur is used in XY (Mega Venusaur is almost exclusively used and sun teams are extremely niche in XY OU). I'd keep the sun set though.
  
• I wouldn't call Venusaur's STABs poor; they get the job done covering the Pokemon Venusaur is supposed to counter. (Sludge Bomb single-handily kills the viability of a lot Grass-types, for instance, and it helps with Fairy-types). The fact that it has 4MSS is a valid concern though.
  
• The fact that Mega Venusaur uses a mega slot shouldn't be mentioned, since it's intrinsic to all Mega Pokemon. Not mention, Mega Venusaur is by far and away one of the best Mega Pokemon in the game.
  
• I'd also point out that lack of black sludge makes it more prone to succumbing to residual damage (U-turn / Volt Switch / Burn)

There needs to be a stronger emphasis on Mega Venusaur arguably being the best tank in the game. It's truly amazing how it can counter a significant portion of the metagame by itself.

EDIT: I don't think Synthesis and Leech Seed should be slashed together, since they're not interchangeable. They should really have their own slots.

 

[Super Mario Bro]

I guess I'll opine on what the slashes for the defensive set should be, as my thoughts contrast with those of my fellow QC members, alex and Jukain:

move 1: Synthesis
move 2: Leech Seed
move 3: Giga Drain
move 4: Sludge Bomb / Roar

Then, EQ and HP Fire would be in set details. Neither of the moves are bad by any means, but Venusaur's 4MSS problem is far too large for it to focus on specific threats, especially on a defensive set. The set Synthesis, Leech Seed, Giga Drain, and Sludge Bomb (interchangeable with Roar) allows it to beat the most Pokemon and generally be as useful as possible.

 

[jc104]

I am, right at this moment, very busy, so you guys should have plenty of time to discuss what the sets should be before I get a chance to write this up.

I feel like the main concern for venusaur is being able to do at least some damage to all the pokemon on the opponent's team. Venusaur is, as PK Gaming said, the best tank in the game, and it's extremely easy to switch in and get attacking. But if the opponent has a ferrothorn and you don't have HP Fire, for instance, Venusaur is just not contributing at all. It becomes far more of a sitting duck than the majority of outright walls, like chansey for instance. While Giga drain is nice against some things that are weak to it, it is often just a luxury, helping you more easily beat the stuff you do already. It doesn't hit anything like ferrothorn, heatran, or even scizor that can just switch in over and over again without even the slightest concern. I feel that moves like leech seed and roar do a good job of at least doing something to almost everything, while sludge bomb hits flying types, and EQ and HP Fire pick out the most frustrating opponents.

I would also like everyone to remember that there are occasions when it is acceptable to have many slashes on a set. It would be wrong to misrepresent what is and isn't viable. Venusaur clearly can't hit everything, and relies very heavily on the fact that the opponent doesn't know which moves it has. To nail down a standard moveset as the most effective is nigh-on impossible, because as soon as it became expected, it could be easily countered.

I also thought I would address PK Gaming's comments, since they don't relate directly to the moveset:

- I agree that the first sentence in the analysis should not be about sun, and that it's probably not even worth mentioning in the overview at all
- Venusaur's STABs are poor, and I'll stand by this. A defensive pokemon like venusaur would normally only run one of its STABs if it were actually good, and possibly no other attacking moves at all, but venusaur is forced to run both of them and at least one coverage move even to have a chance of hitting the entire opposing team decently. Grass is resisted by too much, and poison has one critical immunity that requires covering. To be honest, I could barely think of a worse pair of STABs to have.
-Venusaur's mega slot is significant. Yes, this is true of every mega, but I actually find venusaur to be surprisingly replaceable by non-mega pokemon, while this is not true of many others. I would sooner replace venusaur with an AV tangrowth or amoonguss than replace a mega lucario with an ordinary one.

 

[alexwolf]

My main gripe without EQ being on the main slot is that you fail to deal with Mega Lucario anymore, one of the biggest offensive threats in the metagame. EQ also helps vs Heatran, Mega Char X, Excadrill, Aegislash, and Mega Mawile, some other very threatening offensive Pokemon that Mega Venusaur checks.

 

[Jaroda]

Giga Drain only makes sense on Modest offensive spreads if you're going to have at minimum three attacks, like Sludge Bomb and EQ for instance. On pure defensive spreads, Leech Seed and Synthesis are obviously superior and I believe that's when they should be used.

Megasaur might have the worst 4MSS I've ever seen. It has a ton of great viable options and the balanced stats to utilize them but just not enough at once to cover its bases. While being a hard wall to lots of top threats, he is hard walled by a seemingly equal number when using him yourself. Awesome poke though.

 

[Jukain]

like jc104, i find giga drain a luxury. you really need the utility in that last slot; giga drain doesn't cover that imo. no way to hit ferro, no way to hit mega luc...doesn't appeal to me at all.

 

[Chou Toshio]

I also agree about the value of all of Venu's utility/coverage moves. There is one problem in ditching Grass STAB, and that is that you become completely non-threatening to the majority of Ground-types in the metagame. Heck, you're set-up bait for DONPHAN. Talking about more realistic threats though, Giga Drain lets Venu come out on top versus enemies like Landorus-T and Garchomp, while also not being a free switch-in and setup opportunity for Landorus-I and Gliscor. Being able to easily bring down Rotom-W and even ensuring the edge against Mega Blastoise isn't worthless either.

Overall I wouldn't say Giga Drain's performance outclasses any of its coverage moves, but there are some enemies it is very convenient against.

edit: Also, EQ for the win every time!

 

[Punchshroom]

One of Giga Drain's best uses would be for Gliscor, which Mega Venusaur cannot otherwise defeat or even touch. Other Grounds do not like Poison or Leech Seed. Giga Drain turns the Gliscor matchup from an auto-loss to an auto-win.

 

[Fuzznip]

Replacing Giga Drain for another move is absurd. It's necessary for numerous reasons; without it, Mega Venusaur loses significant defensive and offensive potential.

 

[Punchshroom]

Replacing Giga Drain for another move is absurd. It's necessary for numerous reasons; without it, Mega Venusaur loses significant defensive and offensive potential.

I'm not sure if Giga Drain is as necessary as you point it out to be: Giga Drain is nice for the extra healing (especially on a mon without Leftovers) and beats Tyranitar & Ground-type with recovery moves (Gliscor, Hippowdon, and Gastrodon), but Sludge Bomb would be the move with greater offensive potential due to its damage plus its ability to poison, which incurs more damage on most checks and prevents them from checking Venusaur reliably.

 

[Photofluid]

I'm not sure if Giga Drain is as necessary as you point it out to be: Giga Drain is nice for the extra healing (especially on a mon without Leftovers) and beats Tyranitar & Ground-type with recovery moves (Gliscor, Hippowdon, and Gastrodon), but Sludge Bomb would be the move with greater offensive potential due to its damage plus its ability to poison, which incurs more damage on most checks and prevents them from checking Venusaur reliably.

I think what Megasaur values about giga drain is its ability to provide some healing which could be desperately needed, and leech seed as another option is almost outright inferior when you have something like 123 Base SpA. It comes down to whether or not you need that little extra healing to keep up your momentum, which, in my personal opinion and observation, due to the lack of leftover, is a yes. In this sense giga drain may happen to be mandatory.

The more I think of it, the heavier 4mss I observed, sigh.

Anyway, are there any kind of helpful team support that is easily accessible? Really got pissed off by the 4mss. Or perhaps anyone have given a try to sets without a synthesis?That will alleviate the pressue so much even though I am not very optimistic about the result.

 

[jc104]

Actually, gliscor is neither an auto win with giga drain nor an auto loss without it. If Gliscor is running Taunt, then you need Giga Drain to kill it, but if it's running SubToxic, it's actually a PP stall situation regardless of your moves. Venusaur doesn't have enough giga drain PP to break gliscor's subs, and Gliscor doesn't have enough EQ PP to break venusaur's synthesis recovery.

And in my experience, synthesis is the worst move of them all to go without.

 

[alexwolf]

Giga Drain is a must. Not being able to do anything significant back against one of the most common utility Pokemon (Rotom-W), and one of the most threatening offensive Pokemon (Manaphy) is unacceptable. So, with Giga Drain, Sludge Bomb, and Synthesis as musts, let's reach a consensus about the last slot. I already stated why i think that EQ is the best option there, but Leech Seed and HP Fire are also great options that can go there.

 

[Jaroda]

Giga Drain is a must. Not being able to do anything significant back against one of the most common utility Pokemon (Rotom-W), and one of the most threatening offensive Pokemon (Manaphy) is unacceptable. So, with Giga Drain, Sludge Bomb, and Synthesis as musts, let's reach a consensus about the last slot. I already stated why i think that EQ is the best option there, but Leech Seed and HP Fire are also great option that can go there.

I think EQ is more valuable than Sludge Bomb because Steel types are simply so common and being able to threaten Aegislash and Lucario is a huge deal. While HP Fire is handy for getting rid of the Bug/Steel types and Ferrothorn immediately, none of them really outright threaten Venusaur either, outside of boosting variants of Scizor and Genesect. Meanwhile I still advocate HP Rock since Charizard and Talonflame are very frequent switch ins and it's handy getting rid of them early, and it has good coverage with EQ. It can also ease prediction with Heatran since it can alleviate ones with Balloon. It also hits Dragonite, Volcarona and Gyarados. Venusaur has enough potential checks he's better off with the extra counter measures than neutral coverage with Sludge Bomb, although it's his best bet against other Venusaur ironically. Like we said, 4 MSN hard.

 

[Fuzznip]

Leech Seed is really, really good, so I'd like to see that be the main slash. It basically eases prediction, as you can literally just spam Leech Seed assuming the opponent doesn't have an immunity to it and you'll mostly always be in a win-win situation. It also forces switches to rack up residual damage, prevents setups, restores much-needed health, and wears down the opposition all in one. I think Earthquake is the worst option out of all of them, as it's solely used for Heatran, is it not? Hidden Power Fire at least covers Bisharp, Aegislash, Lucario, Scizor, Genesect, and Ferrothorn, among others. You also don't need to run a Speed-reducing nature if you opt for Hidden Power Fire, which is a good bonus. So I'm looking at:

Synthesis
Giga Drain
Sludge Bomb
Leech Seed / Hidden Power Fire

Earthquake mentioned in the comments to target Heatran.

 

[Jukain]

HP Fire fails to 2HKO Mega Lucario, 3HKO Aegislash (and isn't guaranteed to 2HKO Aegislash in Blade stance), and has a much smaller chance to 2HKO Bisharp (~20% vs. ~66%).

I think Earthquake is almost always better.

 

[Fuzznip]

HP Fire fails to 2HKO Mega Lucario, 3HKO Aegislash (and isn't guaranteed to 2HKO Aegislash in Blade stance), and has a much smaller chance to 2HKO Bisharp (~20% vs. ~66%).

I think Earthquake is almost always better.

I just calculated it and Mega Lucario and Bisharp are 2HKOed and guaranteed to be 2HKOed with SR in play. Aegislash loses to Mega Venusaur either way, really, through Hidden Power Fire and Synthesis on the King's Shield.

 

[Jukain]

i still want to see eq slashed because heatran is really, really annoying, but i concede on what you said. i didn't account for stealth rock.

 

[PizzaDelivery]

My preferred Megasaur set is:

move 1: Synthesis
move 2: Sludge Bomb
move 3: Leech Seed
move 4: Earthquake / Hidden Power Fire

Basically the same as Jukain. I'm a bit surprised at the strength of opinion from some people about the importance of Giga Drain - hitting Manaphy is good, but that feels like virtually the only dangerous threat you're hitting with it. Having a better matchup against Gliscor is nice, but as pointed out even without Giga Drain you're not guaranteed to lose to it. Hitting Rotom-Wash harder is nice, but again feels like more of a luxury than necessity - Sludge Bomb on average 3HKOs it (weighing in leftovers recovery but also the decent chance to poison), compared to the clean 2HKO from Giga Drain. I've played alot of Megasaur without Giga drain, and Rotom gets worn down pretty quickly if it tries messing around with you. I don't think Giga Drain is a bad move by any means, but I find it less important than everything else on the set.

*Sludge Bomb imo is the more useful STAB, hitting harder and providing neutral coverage against things like Dragonite, Latios twins, Talonflame on the switch, and hitting Fairies hard. The 30% chance to poison often gives you that extra bit of wear and tear that you need to break through a core.
*Synthesis fairly obviously a must.
*Leech seed is amazing. Such a great move to spam when you don't know what your opponent will switch in, and your other moves often deter grass types from coming in to absorb it. Excellent way of compensating for your poor STAB coverage.
*Earthquake/hp fire is basically your slot for doing direct damage to steels. hp fire gives coverage against more things, at the cost of lower base power, while Earthquake punishes Heatran.

If slashing Giga Drain in somewhere, I'd probably put it instead of Sludge Bomb or leech seed. Dropping Sludge bomb leaves you at the mercy of a variety of flying types and dragons, but I think I'd prefer that over dropping my steel coverage move and being unable to check Luke, Bisharp, Aegislash etc. I guess dropping leech seed gives you the best possible coverage against a variety of threats, since Leech seed isn't actually required to beat most things, but it's just so good.

 

[PK Gaming]

- Venusaur's STABs are poor, and I'll stand by this. A defensive pokemon like venusaur would normally only run one of its STABs if it were actually good, and possibly no other attacking moves at all, but venusaur is forced to run both of them and at least one coverage move even to have a chance of hitting the entire opposing team decently. Grass is resisted by too much, and poison has one critical immunity that requires covering. To be honest, I could barely think of a worse pair of STABs to have.

Venusaur's dual STABs are a point in its favor, not a negative. It runs both of its STABs because they compliment each other (Venusaur has the distinction of actually being able to damage Dragon-, Grass- and Fire-types, unlike most Grass-types). It's pointless to deride Venusaur for having poor STABs on paper, because it gets by with them in practice. Grass is a shitty offensive typing, but its intrinsic to all Grass-types, and I don't see a point dump on every defensive Grass-type as a result of it)

-Venusaur's mega slot is significant. Yes, this is true of every mega, but I actually find venusaur to be surprisingly replaceable by non-mega pokemon, while this is not true of many others. I would sooner replace venusaur with an AV tangrowth or amoonguss than replace a mega lucario with an ordinary one.

Fair enough. You should definitely emphasis that it's worth the investment. I actually have trouble justifying using most Mega Pokemon over Mega Venusaur.

Throwing my support behind Fuzznip's moveset.

 

[Super Mario Bro]

Yeah, Fuzzy's moveset is fine with me as well. I would prefer Leech Seed to be slashed on its own, though, as I've found it to be a key move, because it lets Venusaur punish many of its switch-ins, and gain momentum and health. As a result, I think it would be better to slash EQ (and perhaps HP Fire) with Giga Drain.

 

[Jukain]

What SMB said works for me as well: Giga Drain / Hidden Power Fire / Earthquake

 

[Shroomisaur]

I absolutely agree with SMB. Personally I wouldn't slash anything with Leech Seed, it's just too useful. The ability to scout and rack up residual damage on the opponent while cushioning your own switch-ins is irreplaceable. I would probably keep Giga Drain alone as well though, it's key for dealing with Rotom-W, Manaphy, Lando, Gliscor, Hippo, etc. Earthquake would be my favorite option in the last slot for Heatran and Tentacruel. My set looks like:

Synthesis
Leech Seed
Giga Drain
Earthquake / Sludge Bomb / HP Fire

 

[Fuzznip]

After a relatively lengthy discussion on #xyqc, we've finally decided that the defensive set should use the following moveset:

Synthesis
Giga Drain
Sludge Bomb
Leech Seed / Earthquake

With Knock Off, Sleep Powder, Hidden Power Fire, and Roar all mentioned in the comments.

This gives us the best of both worlds, basically. STAB Giga Drain and Sludge Bomb are simply way, way too important to have and really can't be dropped. They provide excellent coverage in tandem with each other and hit things really hard. The healing provided by Giga Drain and the poison chance provided by Sludge Bomb are just added benefits. The last slot is where it's up to personal preference. Megasaur makes excellent use of Leech Seed for numerous reasons, as it can increase momentum, restore health, hinder setup sweepers, and more; however, Earthquake can be used instead in order to land super effective hits against those that resist Megasaur's STAB moves, such as Heatran, Lucario, Bisharp, and Aegislash, as well as netting neutral coverage against Scizor and Genesect.

 

[jc104]

OK, changed the set to that. I think you are exaggerating when you say giga drain can't be dropped; clearly a number of us have had at least some success without giga drain. I'll try my best to summarize the discussion we've had here in the comments, that venusaur really has a lot of options and is probably going to have to sacrifice coverage against something (mainly ferrothorn, in the case of the given set), but it's best that the main set looks simple.