USUM UU Viability Ranking Thread V2

[robofiend]

First, you're right that I'm only talking about Scarf. I can't remember the last time I saw Ground-Z, frankly. Maybe it is great and there's a reason that no one else mentions it when talking about Krookodile or lists it on the Smogon page for Krook

Terrakion hasn't rose to A+ yet (and it shouldn't), so I'm not sure why you bring it up here. Of course Terrakion can come in if Krook pursuits one of its teammates, however it can't switch into Krook at all unless it predicts a Dark-type move. You can apply this to any locked mon whos STAB lets in another mon, so why hold this against Krookodile? Togekiss doesn't appreciate its item being removed (especially since its Rocks weak) unless its Fightinium and can't switch into Stone Edge either. I'm not sure why you'd even remotely consider Aerodactyl a Krookodile switch in at all. If anything, its vice versa. Knock Off does a solid 40% to any Aerodactyl switching in, not to mention Stealth Rock. It can't switch into the aforementioned Stone Edge. Hydreigon's most common set, Choice Scarf, is heavily reliant on its item as well, so switching it into Knock is a lost cause. Kommo-O can't switch into EQ, Klefki can't switch into EQ, Moltres can't switch into Stone Edge, Heracross hates getting its Flame Orb Knocked Off, and Sharpedo can't switch into EQ (in fact, Krookodile can soft check non-Liquidation and revenge +1 Adamant Shark). Yes, you mentioned this for Krookodile's Scarf set, but you talk like Scarf is the only set. Groundium Rocks is also a viable set that's criminally underrated and bops all of the mons that you just mentioned that could normally take advantage of a locked Krook.

First - yeah you're right that none of these mons counter Krook. That wasn't my point, I was commenting that they're good situational checks. You're taking prediction for granted here. Obviously, sending Terrakion or Klefki in on EQ is risky and if you mispredict it'll cost you - but spamming EQ lets a ton of other threats (mentioned here) into play as well. Krook spamming Knock Off grants your team a layer of spikes or Terrakion an attack boost. Same for Moltres vs. Stone Edge - obviously a KO, but if you send Fly-Z Moltres in on Knock Off you take 40% max and enjoy a 30% chance of burning Krook and crippling it for the rest of the match. If you predict Moltres and click Stone Edge, you're going to be disappointed when Rak, opposing Krook, Klef, Hippowdon, Swampert, etc. come in for free. Scarf is cool, but lock-in comes at a cost.

Overall, you're not being very charitable at all this section - it's important in a fair discussion to take peoples arguments in the best possible light. You're doing the opposite. The point of this section is that when not using Pursuit, Krook has some hard choices to make about what move to use because tons of common mons resist its 3 attacking types. My comment before was that almost all of the new mons that have started to see usage in UU lately resist one or more of Krook's attacks and can safely come in, depending on their set, on a correct prediction.

Some disembodied calcs:
252 Atk Krookodile Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Aerodactyl-Mega: 114-135 (37.8 - 44.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (obviously not ideal, but workable with Aqua Tail or on a Roost set)
252 Atk Krookodile Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Sharpedo: 99-117 (35.2 - 41.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (also obviously not ideal, but workable with Liquidation)
252 Atk Krookodile Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Moltres: 109-129 (33.9 - 40.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (this one is bad for Krook)

I'm not sure why Scarf Pursuiters have to "gamble" and "give up momentum". If anything, it provides more good than bad. Eliminating a single Pokemon with little risk and high reward is why so many high-level players consider it broken (not to mention how many mons it can invalidate in a game). All of the mons you mentioned that Krookodile "competes" with (Aerodactyl, Muk) have some of the same faults that you mentioned against Krookodile. Aerodactyl can't switch into any of the mons you mentioned and Reuniclus can even beat it if its not a niche set like Crunch. Muk gets chipped easily as well by hazards/repeated switch ins to mons it can't Pursuit (since Muk teams seem to rely on it to beat everything special), and loses to Dragonium Latias and Waterium Z Starmie on the switch. Absol is so bad that i'm astonished you even brought it up honestly and Krookodile is leaps and bounds better, Scarf or not. Signal Beam Mane is very niche as well.

Regarding your first sentence, I can only believe you're trying to be sarcastic or funny or something. Pursuit against healthy targets is a gamble. I'll outline an example with Dragon-Z Latias below, but it stands for things like Starmie or Reuinclus, who eat 40BP Pursuits as well:

Latias

Lets assume it's a 1v1, and you've safely gotten your Krookodile into play. If i click Pursuit on M-Latias, there are two scenarios:

252 Atk Krookodile Pursuit vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latias: 134-158 (44.3 - 52.3%) -- 17.2% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Krookodile Pursuit vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latias: 266-314 (88 - 103.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

The gamble the player makes is that they will switch out their Latias - if they stay in, however:

252 SpA Latias Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Krookodile: 253-298 (76.4 - 90%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Latias Devastating Drake (195 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Krookodile: 379-447 (114.5 - 135%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

So the Krook user really has to read their opponent and gamble that they've read right, otherwise it could cost them their Krook. If they instead use Knock Off, then M-Altaria or Terrakion or whatever comes in for free. Also, against Dragon-Z, Krook can't OHKO with Knock Off so in a pure 1v1 it always loses.

As for other points - I'm not saying these mons are 100% better than Krook or that they totally outclass it, I'm saying that they compete for the role of Pursuit trapper, and there are definitely good reasons to use them instead of Krook on some teams. I personally think A-Muk is amazing right now, particularly with Gliscor leaving the tier and with the recent influx of Psychic types.

To reiterate: considering mons that are weak to Pursuit: Latias/Starmie/Reuniclus/FB Gengar/Sub Chandy/etc

Krook dies to everything if it switches in on the wrong move. So does Aerodactyl. But all things the same, Aero enjoys a high speed tier, a higher attack stat, a wider movepool, a resistance to Knock Off, a nice ability, plus it can Pursuit all of them just as well as Krook. So Aero doesn't outclass Krook, but it does compete for that role.

Muk switches in on all of the above mons, including Starmie/Lati (contrary to your claim, see calcs below). Muk lives Reuniclus' Focus Blasts, Fight-Z or not, while doing the same amount of damage with Knock Off as Krook, Muk eats Fire Blast from Chandy, Muk eats Focus Blast from Gengar. So, to be blunt, you're just super wrong here. A-Muk is way more defensive against common Psychic types than Krook and can switch in on a ton of these sets with only the fear of getting cheesed (though I do think it dies to +1 Sub/Fire-Z Chandelure). Obviously it has flaws, but I'm pointing out that it has advantages over Krook as well and it competes with (not outclasses) Krook for a spot on teams that want a Pursuit user.

Absol's obviously shit, I pointed that out too.

Signal Beam Mane is more common than you claim.

My point, again, is that as a Pursuit user Krook relies on doubling or revenge killing much more than A-Muk does and that it's oversold in that department.

calcs

I'm not sure which Muk we're talking about, but because there are a few sets, but Muk eats attacks from Lati and can poison/cripple/kill it with Pursuit or Knock Off in a manner similar to Krook, minus the speed:
252 SpA Latias Devastating Drake (195 BP) vs. 248 HP / 92 SpD Assault Vest Muk-Alola: 172-204 (41.6 - 49.3%) -- 82.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 SpA Latias Devastating Drake (195 BP) vs. 248 HP / 92 SpD Assault Vest Muk-Alola: 258-304 (62.4 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Latias Devastating Drake (195 BP) vs. 0 HP / 180 SpD Assault Vest Muk-Alola: 160-189 (45.5 - 53.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 SpA Latias Devastating Drake (195 BP) vs. 0 HP / 180 SpD Assault Vest Muk-Alola: 237-280 (67.5 - 79.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

So Muk lives Latias in the 1v1 regardless of what Latias does when Muk switches in. Obviously with chip, things are different. As far as Water-Z Starmie goes, I don't see that as often as LO but I'll show you that you're wrong in both cases:

252 SpA Analytic Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 92 SpD Assault Vest Muk-Alola: 118-141 (28.5 - 34.1%) -- 99.1% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Analytic Starmie Hydro Vortex (185 BP) vs. 248 HP / 92 SpD Assault Vest Muk-Alola: 201-237 (48.6 - 57.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Analytic Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 92 SpD Assault Vest Muk-Alola: 153-183 (37 - 44.3%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Analytic Starmie Hydro Vortex (185 BP) vs. 0 HP / 180 SpD Assault Vest Muk-Alola: 184-217 (52.4 - 61.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Analytic Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 180 SpD Assault Vest Muk-Alola: 109-130 (31 - 37%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Analytic Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 180 SpD Assault Vest Muk-Alola: 142-169 (40.4 - 48.1%) -- 62.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Again, (scarf) Krook isn't bad in any way, but it is being overhyped/oversold in a way really similar to Terrakion. I just don't see it as being on the same level as M-Aero, Toge, or Sharpedo. I do see it on the same level as M-Altaria or Cobalion. Psychic/Flying types are already becoming less amazing with M-Venu leaving and mons like M-Aggron coming back. Dark types are becoming less useful as Fighting types and Fairy types come back from eternal fear of Sludge Bomb. I 100% agreed that Krook was A+ in the M-Venusaur meta, but the game is changing a lot right now. Even mons like Swampert or Hippowdon are suddenly a lot better and they check the hell out of Krook.

 

[Jade]

First, you're right that I'm only talking about Scarf. I can't remember the last time I saw Ground-Z, frankly. Maybe it is great and there's a reason that no one else mentions it when talking about Krookodile or lists it on the Smogon page for Krook



First - yeah you're right that none of these mons counter Krook. That wasn't my point, I was commenting that they're good situational checks. You're taking prediction for granted here. Obviously, sending Terrakion or Klefki in on EQ is risky and if you mispredict it'll cost you - but spamming EQ lets a ton of other threats (mentioned here) into play as well. Krook spamming Knock Off grants your team a layer of spikes or Terrakion an attack boost. Same for Moltres vs. Stone Edge - obviously a KO, but if you send Fly-Z Moltres in on Knock Off you take 40% max and enjoy a 30% chance of burning Krook and crippling it for the rest of the match. If you predict Moltres and click Stone Edge, you're going to be disappointed when Rak, opposing Krook, Klef, Hippowdon, Swampert, etc. come in for free. Scarf is cool, but lock-in comes at a cost.

Overall, you're not being very charitable at all this section - it's important in a fair discussion to take peoples arguments in the best possible light. You're doing the opposite. The point of this section is that when not using Pursuit, Krook has some hard choices to make about what move to use because tons of common mons resist its 3 attacking types. My comment before was that almost all of the new mons that have started to see usage in UU lately resist one or more of Krook's attacks and can safely come in, depending on their set, on a correct prediction.

Some disembodied calcs:
252 Atk Krookodile Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Aerodactyl-Mega: 114-135 (37.8 - 44.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (obviously not ideal, but workable with Aqua Tail or on a Roost set)
252 Atk Krookodile Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Sharpedo: 99-117 (35.2 - 41.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (also obviously not ideal, but workable with Liquidation)
252 Atk Krookodile Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Moltres: 109-129 (33.9 - 40.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (this one is bad for Krook)



Regarding your first sentence, I can only believe you're trying to be sarcastic or funny or something. Pursuit against healthy targets is a gamble. I'll outline an example with Dragon-Z Latias below, but it stands for things like Starmie or Reuinclus, who eat 40BP Pursuits as well:

Latias

Lets assume it's a 1v1, and you've safely gotten your Krookodile into play. If i click Pursuit on M-Latias, there are two scenarios:

252 Atk Krookodile Pursuit vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latias: 134-158 (44.3 - 52.3%) -- 17.2% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Krookodile Pursuit vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latias: 266-314 (88 - 103.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

The gamble the player makes is that they will switch out their Latias - if they stay in, however:

252 SpA Latias Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Krookodile: 253-298 (76.4 - 90%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Latias Devastating Drake (195 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Krookodile: 379-447 (114.5 - 135%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

So the Krook user really has to read their opponent and gamble that they've read right, otherwise it could cost them their Krook. If they instead use Knock Off, then M-Altaria or Terrakion or whatever comes in for free. Also, against Dragon-Z, Krook can't OHKO with Knock Off so in a pure 1v1 it always loses.

As for other points - I'm not saying these mons are 100% better than Krook or that they totally outclass it, I'm saying that they compete for the role of Pursuit trapper, and there are definitely good reasons to use them instead of Krook on some teams. I personally think A-Muk is amazing right now, particularly with Gliscor leaving the tier and with the recent influx of Psychic types.

To reiterate: considering mons that are weak to Pursuit: Latias/Starmie/Reuniclus/FB Gengar/Sub Chandy/etc

Krook dies to everything if it switches in on the wrong move. So does Aerodactyl. But all things the same, Aero enjoys a high speed tier, a higher attack stat, a wider movepool, a resistance to Knock Off, a nice ability, plus it can Pursuit all of them just as well as Krook. So Aero doesn't outclass Krook, but it does compete for that role.

Muk switches in on all of the above mons, including Starmie/Lati (contrary to your claim, see calcs below). Muk lives Reuniclus' Focus Blasts, Fight-Z or not, while doing the same amount of damage with Knock Off as Krook, Muk eats Fire Blast from Chandy, Muk eats Focus Blast from Gengar. So, to be blunt, you're just super wrong here. A-Muk is way more defensive against common Psychic types than Krook and can switch in on a ton of these sets with only the fear of getting cheesed (though I do think it dies to +1 Sub/Fire-Z Chandelure). Obviously it has flaws, but I'm pointing out that it has advantages over Krook as well and it competes with (not outclasses) Krook for a spot on teams that want a Pursuit user.

Absol's obviously shit, I pointed that out too.

Signal Beam Mane is more common than you claim.

My point, again, is that as a Pursuit user Krook relies on doubling or revenge killing much more than A-Muk does and that it's oversold in that department.

calcs

I'm not sure which Muk we're talking about, but because there are a few sets, but Muk eats attacks from Lati and can poison/cripple/kill it with Pursuit or Knock Off in a manner similar to Krook, minus the speed:
252 SpA Latias Devastating Drake (195 BP) vs. 248 HP / 92 SpD Assault Vest Muk-Alola: 172-204 (41.6 - 49.3%) -- 82.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 SpA Latias Devastating Drake (195 BP) vs. 248 HP / 92 SpD Assault Vest Muk-Alola: 258-304 (62.4 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Latias Devastating Drake (195 BP) vs. 0 HP / 180 SpD Assault Vest Muk-Alola: 160-189 (45.5 - 53.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 SpA Latias Devastating Drake (195 BP) vs. 0 HP / 180 SpD Assault Vest Muk-Alola: 237-280 (67.5 - 79.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

So Muk lives Latias in the 1v1 regardless of what Latias does when Muk switches in. Obviously with chip, things are different. As far as Water-Z Starmie goes, I don't see that as often as LO but I'll show you that you're wrong in both cases:

252 SpA Analytic Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 92 SpD Assault Vest Muk-Alola: 118-141 (28.5 - 34.1%) -- 99.1% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Analytic Starmie Hydro Vortex (185 BP) vs. 248 HP / 92 SpD Assault Vest Muk-Alola: 201-237 (48.6 - 57.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Analytic Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 92 SpD Assault Vest Muk-Alola: 153-183 (37 - 44.3%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Analytic Starmie Hydro Vortex (185 BP) vs. 0 HP / 180 SpD Assault Vest Muk-Alola: 184-217 (52.4 - 61.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Analytic Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 180 SpD Assault Vest Muk-Alola: 109-130 (31 - 37%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Analytic Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 180 SpD Assault Vest Muk-Alola: 142-169 (40.4 - 48.1%) -- 62.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Again, (scarf) Krook isn't bad in any way, but it is being overhyped/oversold in a way really similar to Terrakion. I just don't see it as being on the same level as M-Aero, Toge, or Sharpedo. I do see it on the same level as M-Altaria or Cobalion. Psychic/Flying types are already becoming less amazing with M-Venu leaving and mons like M-Aggron coming back. Dark types are becoming less useful as Fighting types and Fairy types come back from eternal fear of Sludge Bomb. I 100% agreed that Krook was A+ in the M-Venusaur meta, but the game is changing a lot right now. Even mons like Swampert or Hippowdon are suddenly a lot better and they check the hell out of Krook.

Can't be bothered to respond to EVERY point individually (or all the points for that matter), but I'm fairly certain 248 HP 92 spdef muk is not a set (either that, or its very rare). Dragonium Z Latias requires very little chip to beat Muk is the point I was trying to make (one Pursuit from Krook or a few switch-ins into Rocks is all it needs, in fact). And no, I'm not trying to be "sarcastic" or "funny". Those mons do live Pursuit, however they take a lot of damage and risk Krook staying in and clicking Knock Off, making them lose their mon instantly. And if they DO stay in on Pursuit, they take either major chip or are (more) easily revenged. Muk taking over 50% from Starmie Hydro Vortex is a lot more than you'd think, as it severely hurts Muk from doing its job. And once again, Muk is very easy to chip through repeated switch ins/doubles as well. Honestly, throughout my reqs run, I've seen exactly 0 Signal Beam Manes. Almost all of them were HP Grass or Toxic. Krook doesn't "always lose" in a Dragonium Lati 1v1 either since Crunch is decently common from what I've seen and that pretty much OHKOs Lati. Krookodile has a lot of things over Aero, too: not taking up a mega slot, being a Ground type, providing speed control, and is infinitely more splashable.

Anyway, if you want to reply to this then feel free to do so, but don't expect a reply back. If this was stale its because im tired from writing 2 VR posts in the same week and I'm kind of meh about it at this point.

 

[Hilomilo]

It's been a good while since I've provided my thoughts regarding the VR, and since I like sharing my thoughts on discussion points and some of my own noms with y'all, I thought it'd be fun posting after a while since I have a few things I'd like to talk about. Hope you guys enjoy!

Chandelure A- -> B+: Disagree
This topic honestly made some sense in the few days following the most recent update post, but I think that since then Chandelure has showcased its adaptability and versatility well enough to still pose the same threat that its A- ranking would suggest (and if not it's become even better). A lot of people have already voiced disagreement for this change so I'll try keeping this concise, but the falling out its Choice Scarf set has suffered in favor of its SubCM set has really allowed it to circumvent a lot of its weaknesses that have become more pronounced with recent metagame trends. It can much more easily punish teams that use Choice Scarf Krookodile as their answer to it, if running Ghostium Z it can take advantage of Kommo-o gaining a lot of recent traction and seeing usage on lots of teams as a Ghost-type switch-in, and it also excels against the ever-viable stall builds running around. It also appreciates the decreased use of Crobat post-Venusaur ban and the falling out of Alolan Muk. Overall, Chandy is still a really solid threat that worked around a lot of things that formerly made for compelling arguments in favor of a drop. I'll be pushing to keep it A-.

Crobat A- -> B+: Agree
Not really sure how I'd feel about dropping it to B just yet, but I for sure agree that A- doesn't suit Crobat anymore. Fighting-types are definitely great and they definitely appreciate the support Crobat can often provide them with, though a lot of other metagame trends disadvantage it and, in my opinion, offset this quality enough for a drop out of the A ranks to be fair. It of course lost some of its utility once Venusaur left, though Mega Manectric and Mega Aerodactyl are now stronger picks on account of their decreased opportunity cost, Rotom-H is continuing its rise in usage and viability, and Steel-types such as Klefki and Empoleon are seeing increased usage. I just don't think it loves what the metagame is currently throwing against it, and while I think Super Fang + Taunt is an option worth vouching for, it also has significant opportunity cost when U-turn, a huge perk of Crobat's, can't be fitted on the set. For me, Crobat's pros aren’t worth A- due to being as offset by its cons as they currently are, so I agree with dropping it at least a subrank.

Kommo-o B+ -> A-: Agree
I'm still totally feeling a Kommo rise. A- was at least a given in the Mega Venusaur meta, but I still think that its Dragon Dance set is viable enough to absolutely push it above B+. Bulletproof is such a useful tool given that Gengar and non-Ghostium Chandelure are enjoying a metagame with less Alolan Muk everywhere, but stopping Stakataka, another threat seeing some more recent usage, can also be pretty big for a lot of the offensive teams it's fitted on. Kommo-o threatens the vast majority of offensive and balanced builds alike after just one boost, enjoys Latias's recent decreased usage of Choice Scarf, and takes total advantage of Mega Manectric and Krookodile improving. It also helps that a lot of the more used Fighting-type checks at the moment, like Moltres and Amoonguss, easily fold to its Dragon-type STAB (Dragon/Fighting can be real hard to defensively combat). I think this guy definitely has enough going for him to rise despite not being as strong a pick as earlier, since in my book it's definitely still up there for one of the better physical boosters in the current meta.

As far as other nominations and discussion points go, I absolutely agree that Araquanid should rise to at least C (you're welcome viv) and that Krookodile should be in A+. I'm a little torn on what to do with Terrakion or Klefki (honestly Spikes is great rn but begin a hazard setter that loses to most common forms of removal really sucks), and I don't agree that Mega Sharpedo should rise, since while I think it's great, I wouldn't say it's as splashable or defining in teambuilding as what it would share a rank with in rising. Anyways, with that stuff out of the way, I'd like to make some of my own nominations. Hope y'all enjoy reading :)

Cobalion A -> A+: Cobalion is really really good right now and I'd definitely agree that it's as defining and centralizing as everything in A+. Mega Venusaur's ban gave it a lot of breathing room in that right now its item selection is so much simpler. If it wants to run a Z-Move, Fightinium Z generally lacks drawbacks given that the one thing most preventing it from covering most of the metagame with Z-CC just left. It also now has a lot more freedom to run Shuca Berry and even the occasional Occa Berry, which sounds niche at first but in my experiences can help you out a lot on teams that lack a strong Hydreigon matchup (if you're running Stone Edge it also alleviates the accuracy issue if you miss against a Moltres or something). Amoonguss and the occasional Slowbro can still prove troublesome, though generally Cobalion's STABs alongside Stone Edge, which I find to be the most preferable option in its fourth slot right now for luring in Moltres, cover plentiful amounts of the metagame and make it really easy to support and really difficult to combat. It also is very well supported by a lot of the tier's currently viable wallbreakers and has ways of powering through those particular Pokemon as well. At this point, I personally just find Cobalion to be a great pick that benefitted enough from Mega Venusaur's ban to return to top-tier status as a sweeper. It's definitely one of the more immediate threats for teams to currently prepare for in my opinion.

Rhyperior B+ -> B: It's really no secret that Rhyperior has taken some significant blows in recent weeks, and I definitely think that its drop in usage corresponds with its decreased usability, which for me justifies a ranking downgrade. Mega Manectric is now much more capable of punishing it with either one of Hidden Power Grass (mainly) or Toxic, while Rotom-C is appreciative of Mega Venusaur's departure and Rotom-H now has more freedom to run options like HP Grass or Will-o-Wisp. All of these hinder Rhyperior's ability to act as a reliable switch-in to Electric-types, which was formerly one of its most pivotal qualities in the meta. It also doesn't appreciate the metagame trending in favor of a few particular presences, which include Z-Fight Cobalion, Terrakion, Heracross, and to an extent Amoonguss, while there's also a decreased need to take on a few Pokemon it checked quite well previously, such as Crobat and Alolan Muk. You could argue that Moltres's recent surge in usage that has sort of been maintained after the Venusaur banned benefits Rhyperior, though its lack of recovery can allow Moltres to easily take advantage of it on the switch by firing off an attack (orb and specs sets cut into it fairly significantly) while HP Grass is still a fine option on it. Overall, I just don't think the meta favors Rhyperior enough for it to stay afloat in B+, especially since Hippowdon is continuously presenting itself as a great option as a defensive Ground-type and I wouldn't put those two only a subrank apart.

Rotom-H B -> B+ OR Rotom-C B+ -> B: This is a bit of a tricky one, since I think you could take a look at a lot of current metagame trends and point to Rotom-H as the one currently favored by more. However, I think that right now, both these guys have distinguishable traits in the metagame that make them about as good as each other, so I'd argue that instead of a ranks difference, they should either both sit at B or B+, though I'd prefer the latter option. Rotom-H is honestly a really strong pick right now and I think that despite just recently rising B+ is suitable for it at the moment. It's one of the more reliable offensive switch-ins to a lot of troubling Pokemon for offensive teams, like Moltres, Manectric, Mamoswine, and Mega Altaria, which is much better with Mega Venusaur gone. Checking Scizor is always a fantastic quality as well, while it also functions as a much stronger bird check than mowtom due to actually resisting Flying-type attacks. Rotom-C has worse matchups against all of the aforementioned threats, but I still think its typing is really strong in the metagame due to the fact that Ground-types are still really important in teambuildling. Its typing allows it to take advantage of the fact that Ground-types are used in almost every archetype to combat Electrics, and while Mamoswine complicates this to an extent it can't directly switch in to take advantage of the mower at all. More reliably pressuring most Water-types and lacking a Stealth Rock weakness as a defogger are also very useful tools that I think keep it on par with its Fire-type brother. Right now I'd say these two are on even ground, and if one's a little better it's probably Rotom-H but I wouldn't say it's enough for a subrank's difference. Both are solid options that in my eyes can definitely hang with the rest of B+. If not I'd definitely wanna see mow drop, though.

Mienshao C -> C+: I was really feeling Mienshao in the predictive shifts tours that were held in the UU room before the July shifts, but when Mega Venusaur dropped down the Gliscor rise all of a sudden kind of meant nothing for it. Now with both Mega Venusaur and Gliscor gone, it has a lot more breathing room as both a revenge killer and as a wallbreaker and I'd argue that it's now definitely better than what it's with in C. It absolutely lacks defensive utility, and it isn't a super reliable revenge killer to Mega Sharpedo due to relying on a crash damage move to kill a Pokemon that runs Protect, but I think these flaws are offset enough by its current niche over the main Pokemon it competes with. Reckless High Jump Kick can partially patch up its power issue that a lot of other scarfers struggle to circumvent, allowing it do some crazy things like 2HKOing Alomomola after rocks, OHKOing Mega Aerodactyl, and 2HKOing Hippowdon with just a little bit of chip. It also doesn't allow Latias and Primarina opportunities to come in like Infernape tends to do as a scarfer. These particular scenarios illustrate some of the meta-relevant situations where I think Mienshao can shine over its compeition despite its present flaws, and I also think that being able to fit pivoting and Knock Off on the same mon is really nice. Sorting out whether you want Poison Jab or Stone Edge in the fourth slot can be a bit tricky since Moltres and Mega Altaria are equal in how annoying they are for this guy to deal with, but I think that it punishes its switches nicely and limits said switches much more than any other Fighting-type revenge killer. I think it should definitely rise back up.

Hope this was a good read! Let me know what you guys think, and sorry that it was long I can't help it ;-; This coming Sunday should probably be when our next update is, since it's been a little wonky trying to get one going lately what with Mega Venusaur getting banned almost right after shifting the metagame a fair amount. Keep the solid activity going in the meantime, and thanks for reading!

 

[Surgeon]

drop to B+: Disagree

Most of the arguments supporting a Mega Slowbro drop seem to be focusing a lot on the Calm Mind set, highlighting that it has a hard time finding an opportunity to set up due to the presence of Pokemon like Mega Manectric and Hydreigon, which is fair but I wouldn't place Slowbro in A- solely because of its Calm Mind set. The biggest reason to use Slowbro in this meta right now is for its ability to reliably check Pokemon like Mega Aerodactyl, Cobalion, Mamoswine, Terrakion, Heracross, non mixed Kommo-O (which is incredibly underrated btw), etc, all in one slot, which is a great asset for balance and fat builds in general, since they have a pretty hard time finding some kind of reliable counterplay against most of these threats and they're all either already top threats or rising in popularity. Some posts also talk about how it faces competition from other bulky Water-types like Suicune and how other megas are often preferred, but I think that the niche it offers to balance by keeping all of the aforementioned threats in check in one slot (which no other viable mega or bulky Water is able to do) is good enough to keep it in the lower A rankings, next to stuff like Amoonguss. Slowbro just seems to be a very unexplored Pokemon right now, with the Calm Mind set being the main focus. Future Sight is a really nice tech that's been picking up lately and deserves more attention, as it can be brutal for bulkier teams to face when paired with VoltTurn or breakers like Terrakion and SD Heracross. The 3 attacks set is also still very hard to switch into with Empoleon being the only real common switch in and it's hindered by Scald burns, and Thunder Wave is also obviously a great asset for it to cripple Pokemon like Hydreigon and not be such a momentum drain. It's really not as "awkward" to fit onto teams as most people claim if you don't limit yourself to the Calm Mind set.

was also bullied by user: vivalospride into mentioning that Araq should rise

 

[revelations]

Thoughts on some noms.

Rotom Heat to B+ STRONGLY AGREE

It's unique ability to check Scizor and Mamoswine makes it a very good Mon right now and definitely should rise.

Empoleon to A+ Agree

Even after Venasaur left this Mon was an amazing rocker as well as defogger which allows role compression and definetley should rise.

Sorry for short post I'm p busy atm.

 

[Darksafadao]

Hey, I wanna share some opinions on the meta right now

B+ -> B First I wanna agree with Hilomilo saying Rhyperior should go to B, I wanna also add that Mega Aerodactyl being able to run Aqua Tail way more freely with Gliscor and Mega Venusaur gone hurts it somewhat too.

B+ -> A- I believe the meta has been making Nihilego a cooler option to be ran. The hazard sets don't need to run HP Ice to punish Defog Gliscor anymore, freeing it up in a slot. Also, with the decline of Rhyperior, it is the first option that pops into my mind when I wanna run a Rocker + Flying Resist. Not only that, with Mega Manectric becoming even more fearsome with now being able to swap between the HP it runs, a special sponge like Nihilego can be useful for teams that want something that can take a hit but doesn't want to give up on momentum: with a mon such as Nihilego Mega Manectric is forced to guess if you'll go to Nihilego or your ground-type, making it potentially lose momentum - which is vital for most Mega Manectric teams. Overall, it's just one of the best rockers in the tier, has other options in Scarf and Specs and I think it's worth of A-

C- -> C at least Nidoqueen may not be the best hazard setter ever, but I'm sure it has more of a niche than anything else at C-: It is a T-spiker that has nice bulk, useful typing that can punish a lot of defoggers. Also, with Special Defense investment, it's a great Mega Manectric answer. I've also been using Toxic on it to punish even more removers and be annoying in general, and it has been putting in work. I've made a more detailed post on Nidoqueen here if you are interested

A- -> B+ I love Gengar, but I don't feel like A- is the place for it for a couple of reasons:
- The tier has a lot of pursuiters right now which really cripples it, and it has become even more evident due to Krook getting a lot of popularity (mainly scarf Krook) in the last weeks.
- With Gliscor out of the tier, Alolan Muk becomes way more threatening. Now it can Knock even more freely and Poison common switch-ins, crippling them, make it pretty more appealing to me, as that's a nice complement for its main role as a pursuiter. As it's just the best answer to Gengar in the tier, I think it's fair to say Alolan Muk getting better makes Gengar worse.
- Sub sets suffer competition by Chandy, which has way more defensive utility and helps versus Scizor, which is the face of UU. Of course Chandy doesn't fully replace any Gengar set and is way more slow, but it's something to be taken into account.
- It's just not as splashable as others in A- and doesn't define a playstyle like Blissey and Alomomola do. It's just an odd spot for Gengar in the tier overall and I feel like B+ would represent better what how it is right now.

Those are my opinions right now, thanks for reading.

 

[vivalospride]

Hi, please rank Galvantula... idc where, just rank it. Thanks.

Imo the water spider's ability to set webs more freely throughout the game and abuse webs better with it's absurd power in Liquidation makes it the superior web setter. But honestly Galvantula pressures a lot of the tier's removal and wins 1v1. Moltres, Tentacruel, Empoleon, etc. all lose to Galvantula. Yes, the fact that Galvantula can't OHKO Tenta or Empo is kinda pathetic, and it does have a lack of general power because it's kinda forced to run sash > lo, but it still beats most removal 1v1 regardless of it. Switching into Bug + Electric + Grass coverage is pretty fuckin irritating and having Compound Eyes + Thunder is pretty fuckin cool to make up for it's lack of lo and mediocre SpA stat. Like I said in my previous vr post, serp rising, glisc rising, mamo dropping, etc etc has led to webs becoming a niche but viable team archetype in UU. So why not rank the best setters, imo being Araq and Galvantula, I haven't tried Smeargle out yet but I doubt it'd be too bad, also Ribombee wasn't have bad but it hard loses to like 99% of removal. S/o Amane Misa for encouraging me to use Galv more oWo.

Here's a team if you wanna fuck around with Galv.

Importable

Galvantula @ Focus Sash
Ability: Compound Eyes
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sticky Web
- Thunder
- Bug Buzz
- Energy Ball

Mamoswine @ Life Orb
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Ice Shard
- Icicle Crash
- Earthquake

Sharpedo @ Sharpedonite
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Protect
- Ice Fang
- Crunch
- Psychic Fangs

Chandelure @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Calm Mind
- Flamethrower
- Shadow Ball

Scizor @ Life Orb
Ability: Technician
EVs: 124 HP / 252 Atk / 132 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Bullet Punch
- Quick Attack
- Knock Off

Togekiss @ Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Air Slash
- Thunder Wave
- Roost

 

[Adaam]

Incoming wall of text to farm some likes, almost have a 4.0 ratio let's make it happen lads and lasses.

Rises

A -> A+ Agree. One of the most annoying Pokemon to face when using offense and it forces a Ground-type on nearly every team. It's resilient to priority, fast, has Intimidate, and has a flexible fourth moveslot now that Gliscor is gone. Providing teams with the ever-precious Flying resist is also big, especially since it outspeeds all relevant birds sans Aerial Ace Mega Aero.

A -> A+ Agree. A lot of people claim Mega Sharpedo is not as splashable as the other A+ mons, but I disagree. Sharpedo is probably the face of UU offense right now and is so easy to throw on this archetype due to how much it covers. You get a phenomenal cleaner that checks a lot of boxes that are pivotal for offense, including but not limited to Scizor, Latias, Mega Aerodactyl, Slowbro, Chandelure and many more. For real it's ridiculous how easily this thing cleans with just a bit of chip. Offense mirrors are often determined by who brings in their Sharpedo first because they get that crucial 2x speed boost and can fire off two Crunches lol. With Mega Venusaur's ban it also is able to forego Psychic Fangs (even with Amoonguss) and run EQ to kill Klefki, Mega Manectric, and Cobalion while retaining damage on Infernape and Terrakion. I think barring it from A+ due to lack of defensive flexibility is a bit unfair considering how good it does its job (plus Breloom was A+ before despite having less defensive utility).

A -> A+ Agree. Speaking of utility, Cobalion is the king of role compression. Losing both Gliscor and Mega Venu have been amazing for it for obvious reasons, and it serves as a decent Mamoswine check as it switches easily into Knock Off or Icicle Crash/Shard. Double Dance and SR are still great, but what makes Cobalion stand out is its ability to adapt to recent changes. Moltres is everywhere, so SD 3 attacks with Stone Edge is a simple change to beat a lot of teams relying on it as a Fighting check. Slowbro is not seen much, and neither is Doublade, so all of its main checks rely on sheer bulk to check it (mainly Grounds like Swampert and Hippo). This is easy to power through with +2 Fight-Z and just a bit of chip. Oh and it's one of the best offensive Sharpedo checks we have so that alone is a big boon.

A -> A+ Disagree. Robofiend eloquently explained its flaws. Specifically, it relies far too much on 50/50s to do its job effectively, and it is too exploitable after locking itself into a move to be considered A+ worthy. Even if you do get the Pursuit vs Knock prediction right, or win the "EQ the Cobalion or Knock off the Lati switch" game, you potentially give a free turn to something you don't want to. For example, Lucario, Cobalion, Infernape, Mega Altaria, Kommo-o, and Scizor can exploit Knock Off and Pursuit while any floaty mon does the same with EQ. Also, its SR set is good but definitely not standout enough to warrant an A+ placement.

A -> A+ Disagree. I don't see what changed for it to go even higher. It's great at killing everything in its sight, yes, but requires some support in coming in since it doesn't really switch in to much besides predicted Dark-type moves.

B+ -> A- Agree slightly. Annoying as shit, phenomenal Latias check, always gets at least one layer up, and Shark is broken right now. However, it is still helpless against the tier's most common removers in Empoleon, Tentacruel, and Starmie. That being said, I think the increased viability in Spikestack is enough to boost it a subrank.

B+ -> A- Agree. See my previous post, even with Mega Venusaur gone this thing is insane. I think it's A worthy personally, the mixed set with SR or Automize is my personal favorite.

B+ -> A Agree. What on earth is this beast doing so low. I cringe at team preview every time I see it since it's so good at Defogging and walls the hell out of Flying-types, although it has to be careful around Specs Moltres. A lot of wallbreakers can abuse it, but odds are there are multiple members on your team that it can freely come in and and Defog, which is what it's supposed to do.

B -> B+ Agree. Free Doomer.

B- -> B Agree. Words cannot describe how good Gliscor leaving was for Lucario. Venusaur was annoying too but to a lesser extent since you outspeed and can kill with a bit of chip after a boost. It's so versatile with its movepool and mixed stats, and it's arguably one of the best stallbreakers after a boost.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-780870901
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7uu-386479

Just some replays showing how potent it is after a boost. It's frail but it has such good typing it can find many Pokemon to set up on like Krookodile, Hydreigon, -2 Lati, Scizor, or on one of the many, many Pokemon it forces out.

C+ -> B- Disagree. No Venu no rise.

Drops

A- -> B+ Agree. Serperior and Mega Venusaur left, taking away Crobat's biggest niche. Most Fighting-types can plow through it and it lacks the offensive firepower after burning its Z-move to take advantage of free turns. The splashability of Empoleon, Mega Aero, and Mamoswine (on offense) makes it hard for Crobat to be effective in certain matchups.

A- -> B+ Disagree. Scarf sucks ass now but CM and Specs are great still. Like Hilomilo pointed out, it has the tools to circumvent recent trens with Ghost-Z to beat Kommo-o and Will-o-Wisp to fuck with Pursuit trappers. The Fighting immunity is also huge for dissuading CB Terrakion from spamming CC, and walling Cobalion/Infernape is real nice.

A- -> B+Disagree. See my previous post and 1Surgeon's.

B+ -> B or even B- Agree. Rhyp sucks lol. Manectric runs HP Grass now, Aero runs Aqua Tail, Mamo exists, Amoonguss exists, but it kinda checks birds so it's not complete ass.

Lastly, Araq is good I am glad to see people respect Webs as a playstyle now. Give it a boost.

 

[justdrew]

I’ve been meaning to slide my way back into VR posting and now that Mega Venusaur is gone I finally have the energy. We play in a tier where Mega Manectric uses HP Grass, where Suicune is literally disgusting, and Togekiss continues to flinch it’s way to victory. Stall is about as strong as it’s always been and innovation is at an all time low. I’m prepared for the backlash that will follow this post but here is my serious nomination for at least C tier.

Mega Ampharos is untapped powerhouse of the volt turn community. With 165 base special attack and commendable defensive stats it gets way less attention than it deserves. It is a solid check to my of the tiers prominent threats including Mega Manectric, Togekiss, Suicune, Moltres, and Mega Pidgeot. With Rest and Sleep Talk, Mega Ampharos can have more longevity in games. Dragon Pulse 2HKO’s Swampert, Seismitoad, and Hippowdons that aren't fully spdef. It also Volt Switches on Fairies which doesn’t make them an issue. It may be slow but it has enough speed to creep Mega Aggron, Swampert, and Hippowdon. Sure it’s not as useful as Mega Manectric, of course it’s speed is an issue, but there is no question that this mon has both viability and promise in this tier. A lot of people say Mega Ampharos is a “do nothing Pokémon” that “for its speed it’s bulk isn’t respectable” but try switching in on a max Modest Mega Ampharos and tell me it does nothing. See how much your lovely birds and fat waters do to this monster. That’s all I have to say, happy reading!

 

[smogsicle]

I absolutely adore Krookodile. It is by far my favorite scarfer in UU. But I have to agree with robofiend and Adaam that it's too exploitable to rise. You definitely do not want to give a free boost to any of the Justified mons by hitting them with Knock Off and almost every team has 1-3 Earthquake immunities, meaning clicking either STAB and getting it wrong poses a large risk. Nothing worse than a 1% Latias getting to Draco you again because you're locked into Earthquake, except for maybe having a Lucario at +3 because you hit it with Knock Off. I also find Knock Off to be a particularly weak move in general due to the high number of Megas and Z-Crystals. I think Krook's coverage options are pretty weak too, with only Stone Edge and to a lesser extent Superpower being even remotely viable.

Also please do not drop Mega Slowbro. That thing is deadly as a wincon, and is still valuable without megaing, especially since it's one of the few walls that doesn't mind Fighting STAB.

 

[Olliert]

/

- I don't think these two deserve to be two sub-ranks apart seeing as they do a very similar job and I don't think you can say sylveon really dominates florges in the meta, especially with most kommo running sound proof after the venusaur ban. They both have advantages over the other - florges gets defog for example, so I feel they should end up around the same rank, or at most one apart. I was originally of the opinion that sylveon should drop but I'm not sure since it's a fairy and wish is really good and it's one of the only mons that can do it with an offensive presence. (florges can wish too ftr and can run wish/synthesis)

Secondly I agree with pretty much all of Adaam's post but especially: SHARPEDO, KOMMO, LUCARIO, CROBAT, RHYPERIOR. Mane should probably rise too.

Thirdly, Gligar needs to be ranked now since gliscor is gone. I would say it should go in at B- but ranking it at all would be a start. It's a decent choice on stall teams as it's one of the only decent switch ins to cb terrakion and has a good support movepool. It's a bit passive to be used on other archetypes but is essentially just extremely tanky with great typing and can defog/sr, it also makes a good manectric and cobalion switch in.

 

[vivalospride]

I should probably make one big post with all my opinions and own personal noms instead of 3 different posts all with different mons as the main topic, but whatever.
Please raise the lad Mega Sceptile to B-

This mon has gotten significantly better in the past month or two, like seriously. I made a post a while back on this mon that didn't really pick up any traction, hopefully this one is different. Many good things have happened to this mon recently... Serperior (it's main competition as an offensive grass type in UU) has risen to OU, Mega Venusaur (it's other main competition as grass type in UU) was banned recently. Mega Manectrics are no longer running Hp Ice almost 100% of the time because of Gliscor rising, making it a much more reliable offensive answer to Mega Manectric, which has been one of it's main niches for a while. All of it's competition as an offensive grass type has left the tier other than Celebi, and Sceptile does much more immediate damage, is faster, can lure muk w/o z move, can lure Scizor, and is a volt switch in. I don't think this mon is like nuts or anything but C+ is a bit low and too many good things have happened to it recently for it not to raise.

Also, rank Gligar n_n, idc enough about that to write about it tho ahahhahahaha

 

[Hilomilo]

Ranking Update
Before we start, I'd like to announce that martha has recently been added to the ranking council! Be sure to congratulate her! These past couple weeks had some excellent discussion, so thanks guys! Hope you enjoy these coming changes as much as I've enjoyed reading your posts :) here's what changed:

Rises

A -> A+

A -> A+

B+ -> A-

B+ -> A-

B+ -> A-

B+ -> A-

C- -> C

C- -> C

UR -> C-

Drops

A- -> B+

A- -> B+

A- -> B+

B+ -> B

B- -> C+

B- -> C+

C+ -> C

C -> C-

Reasons for Rises

In a tier without Gliscor and Mega Venusaur, Cobalion has an easier time running Fightinium Z without drawbacks than ever before. The more frequent inclusion of Stone Edge on its Swords Dance set to hit Chandelure and Moltres speaks to its ability to work around challenging metagame trends, while two of its few reliable defensive answers in Mega Slowbro and Doublade are both at relatively low usage and are fairly exploitable. Cobalion is easy to support, is among the tier’s most centralizing forces, and is certainly adaptable, versatile, and influential enough to warrant rising to A+.

Mega Manectric has become capable of more heavily restricting its reliable defensive counterplay due to now being capable of comfortably running Hidden Power Grass, which powers through former hard checks Swampert and Rhyperior. This in tandem with the rise in offense’s viability, its ability to pivot out of any of its reliable switch-ins barring Hippowdon, and providing utility as a check to big presences like Mega Sharpedo and Togekiss has increased its effect on the metagame, allowing it to reclaim its status as one of the most centralizing and influential Pokemon in the tier.

Empoleon is rising on the basis of simply being an excellent current pick in the metagame due to how consistently it can get its job done as an entry hazard remover or setter. It has a really strong matchup against the tier’s common Fairy- and Flying-types, stands as one of the more reliable checks to offensive nuisances like Latias, Starmie, and Primarina, and makes great use of its several useful utility options and surprisingly powerful Scald to put in work in every match. Its rise is beyond justified when comparing it to the rest of B+ at this stage simply due to its consistency.

With Gliscor gone, Heracross has been able to reestablish its prowess as a wallbreaker and find more of a place for itself in the metagame than in weeks past. Taking advantage of a rising defensive threat in Amoonguss in addition to enjoying trends like Krookodile’s rise and Crobat’s decline has made it a significantly stronger pick as just a very threatening and consistent physical wallbreaker.

Kommo-o has a big enough current presence compared to the rest of B+ for a rise to be justified. Due to its excellent bulk for an offensive Pokemon and the perks of its typing and abilities, it’s an applicable threat on offensive teams that can easily threaten opposing offenses while providing solid overall utility. While it hasn’t directly benefitted from recent trends, its current presence is just more pronounced than the rest of B+, which is why rising is fair.

Nihilego is in a pretty great place right now. It’s less strapped for moveslots than ever before with Mega Venusaur and Gliscor both gone, Rhyperior’s decline has given it less competition as a Rock-type hazard setter, and it can comfortably come in on Mega Manectric thanks to its great uninvested special bulk. Its physical bulk and situational typing can still hold it back at times, though its consistency and splashability are currently both at an all-time high and rising best reflects this.

Araquanid rose to C to reflect the increased viability of webs offense, which appreciated Mamoswine’s introduction to the tier and Serperior’s rise to OU. Due to being able to provide for its team in several ways beyond just setting Sticky Web (i.e. punching holes in teams and checking presences like Infernape and Mamoswine), Araquanid is an extremely strong pick as a setter and could rise further in the future as webs potentially establishes itself more as a strong playstyle.

Nidoqueen has a lot of small unique tools that have accumulated nicely to give it some more recognizable recent worth than before. Its better bulk than Nidoking allows it to adequately make use of Toxic Spikes, it isn’t vulnerable to Pursuit like Nihilego, and it can also reliably combat Mega Manectric. While it’s less powerful than its male counterpart, it still has a decent offensive presence and with its typing and coverage it can easily punch holes in teams and discourage most hazard removal from coming in. Still not a great mon, but currently useful enough to reasonably sit above C-.

Palossand has a reasonable amount of niches that have recently been illustrated well enough to give it a spot in the ranks. Countering Terrakion is extremely valuable, though it can also more reliably check Cobalion than other Ground-types, it takes advantage of the tier’s main Ground-type switch-in in Latias with Shadow Ball, and it can also do some fun things like take advantage of Hippowdon’s sand to restore obscene amount of health with Shore Up. The Pursuit weakness and worse bulk can be troubling, though not enough to deny it placement lower in the ranks due to its proven usefulness.

Reasons for Drops

Crobat almost entirely rose on the basis of Mega Venusaur’s presence, meaning that it clearly lost some defensive utility after the latest suspect result. However, it also lacks appreciation for the rise of Electric-types, Empoleon and Klefki’s increased usage, and the continued prominence of several Pokemon that punish it, like Mega Aerodactyl and Mamoswine. It still has utility as a check to Mega Altaria and Grass-types, though this isn’t enough at this stage of the meta to keep it above B+.

Gengar is still a very solid offensive threat, though the distinction between it and Chandelure has now become evident enough to keep the two a subrank apart to reflect that, for now, Chandy is the slightly stronger pick. Chandelure can more easily circumvent its Pursuit weakness, has way more defensive utility, and is more splashable due to said defensive utility. Dropping is fair for now, though this isn’t to say that it can’t be a fearsome presence in the current metagame.

The general consensus behind dropping Mega Slowbro was that while it can truly be one of the hardest Pokemon to deal with once boosted and has a lot of utility and versatility between various sets, it lacks appreciation for the presences of several threats that currently receive high usage. Latias, Mega Manectric, Hydreigon, and Togekiss are all top threats it can struggle to combat, though the rises of Empoleon, Primarina following the Venusaur ban, and Mega Sharpedo are also quite burdensome for it, which in tandem with its opportunity cost and competition from other Water-types justifies dropping for now.

Rhyperior has lost a lot of utility as an Electric-type check, which was formerly one of its main uses, now that Rotom-C no longer struggles with Mega Venusaur’s presence and Mega Manectric and Rotom-H can both comfortably run moves to punish it. The high usage of about five different Fighting-types and Hippowdon and Nihilego often edging Rhyperior out on different archetypes is the nail in its coffin, justifying a drop to B to reflect its dislike of recent metagame occurrences.

Salazzle’s lack of defensive utility among other shortcomings has made it a suboptimal pick over its plentiful competition as a Fire-type Nasty Plot user. Infernape’s ability to use Vacuum Wave to combat Scarfed Krookodile and Hydreigon, actually avoid the 2HKO from Scizor’s Bullet Punch, and match up against stall more easily make it a more optimal pick, while Mega Houndoom also often outperforms Salazzle due to its more spammable secondary STAB attack, ability to check Latias, and its better customizability. It’s just hard to justify using Salazzle right now, which makes C+ perfectly fair for it.

Mega Steelix has been brought up for a ranking downgrade a few different times, though now seems a better time to drop it to C+ than ever before. It’s hard for it to act as a reliable Electric immunity beyond just forcing Volt Switch mind games considering every Electric-type in B or above can handily punish it. It also is beginning to face even more competition in the Steel-type slot than before, with Empoleon and Klefki’s surge in usage and Mega Aggron’s current value often leaving it in the dust. It has some very team specific niches that justify placement high in the C rankings, but for now not above them.

While not a lot has really recently changed for Venomoth, it simply just isn’t strong enough in its role to be considered as viable as the rest of C+. It’s easily revenge killed by both priority and the tier’s several viable Choice Scarf users, though it also struggles with its poor type coverage, lacking defensive utility, and competition from special sweepers with more power or defensive utility, like Celebi, Togekiss, and Infernape. It just doesn’t have a lot it can hang its hat on right now, making C+ too generous.

Seismitoad has continued to struggle for a niche, and while D is a little extreme given that it can combat Pokemon like Volcanion and Suicune, C- is currently the most accurate representation of its value to the metagame. Its main niches over Swampert are very very team specific and often only come down to an intense need for role compression, though since there are a few situations in which it can be the significantly more useful option, it has enough of a niche to stay away from the blacklist.

Rejected Nominations and Discussion Points

Togekiss A+ -> A
The metagame may favor some offensive builds that are more capable of powering through Togekiss. However, it’s proven its ability to adapt through the innovation of sets like Babiri Berry and its more frequent inclusion of Fire-type coverage on sets, which throws off a lot of its most relevant counterplay. It also appreciates Amoonguss’s fair usage and the continued viability of stall, which offsets the rises of threats like Terrakion and Mega Manectric enough to reasonably keep it at the top of the A ranks.

Mega Sharpedo A -> A+
Mega Sharpedo is a very strong pick right now, though it isn’t quite on the level of what sits in A+ and is, for now, being kept from rising. It’s an exceptional cleaner and arguably the best in the tier, though unlike a lot of A+, its checks tend to come more naturally in teambuilding while it struggles to fit itself on multiple different kinds of teams. It’s because of this that it lacks the exact centralization and influence that definesa lot of A+ Pokemon, such as Hydreigon, Mega Manectric, and Togekiss.

Starmie A- -> A
Starmie is still easy enough to punish to refrain from being necessarily defining enough to rise above where it’s currently at. If it runs offensive sets, it’s quite vulnerable to Pursuit and is easily overcome on account of its frailty, while bulkier sets lack the firepower necessary to take on a lot of the offensive metagame without over-relying on burning foes with Scald. Right now, it’s about as good as it’s always been, which is adequately reflected with its maintained A- ranking.

Klefki B+ -> A-
This received a lot of support in the thread, though in reality before spikes offense made its resurgence Klefki was sort of hanging onto its B+ ranking and recent trends have allowed it to more comfortably hang on instead of necessarily deserving to rise. It is indeed the lynchpin of a playstyle with recently increased viability, though it can struggle a lot in that as an entry hazard setter, it’s passive and lacks good matchups against several relevant entry hazard removers, despite its strong defensive utility. Overall, while good, Klefki still has enough keeping it in check to stay just below A-.

Rotom-C B+ -> B
Rotom-C has been making a bit of a resurgence since the Mega Venusaur metagame, largely due to losing a huge factor holding it back. While Rotom-H is giving it more competition than ever before, the perks of its typing, which include standing as one of the best answers to both Ground- and Water-types and lacking a Stealth Rock weakness, are strong enough for its B+ ranking to be justified. It’s also appreciative of a few current trends, including the strength of offensive builds it fits well on and defensive Pokemon like Hippowdon and Empoleon being strong picks.

As always, if you're curious as to why a change didn't go through, feel free to contact me on my wall to get an answer for why a specific change didn't go through. The ranking council's voting slate can be seen here, so keep in mind that some of these more recent posts will be included in the next slate and discussion on them is still encouraged. Now, without further ado, we have our discussion points! Enjoy!

Discussion Points

Krookodile A -> A+
Krookodile is an incredibly strong pick in the current metagame, combating trends such as the rises of Nihilego, Mega Manectric, and Empoleon very well while providing the teams it's fitted on with exceptional overall utility. Pursuit, a powerful Knock Off, revenge killing capabilities, an Electric-type immunity, and Intimidate have all always contributed to make it a fantastic support Pokmeon. However, with Gliscor gone, Krookodile is now harder to punish, while it also supports all of the tier's rising Fighting-types excellently. Working against it is the fact that these Fighting-types can punish it just as easily as they can benefit from its support, as well as its mediocre damage output and ability to occasionally give up free turns. Whether its pros outweigh its cons enough for a rise is certainly something worth talking about at this stage.

Terrakion A -> A+
Terrakion is something of a rising star right now, having quickly cemented itself as one of the tier's hardest Pokemon to defensively combat and something that always needs to be prepared for in teambuilding. The viability of both its Choice Band and Swords Dance sets speaks to its versatility and ability to threaten several popular archetypes in various ways due to its near lack of reliable defensive counterplay. In recent weeks it's warped the tier around it, influencing trends such as Palossand's mere usage. Whether or not its centralization and influence are enough to offset its main flaws is worth discussing, though said main flaws, which mostly stem from its typing being extremely exploitable due to the presence of Scizor among several other top threats that take advantage of it, undeniably hold it back in some respects.

Amoonguss A- -> A
Mega Venusaur's departure has provided Amoonguss with a lot more breathing room as a defensive pivot with significantly less opportunity cost to being run. Its increased ease of use in addition to taking on a few very important tier threats, which include Primarina, Mega Altaria, Cobalion, and Krookodile, brings a rise into question. However, its vulnerability to a few other large presences, like Infernape and Latias, in addition to its significant passiveness compared to Mega Venusaur could easily offset the perks of its typing and Regenerator enough to keep it in A-. It also doesn't receive particularly notable usage at the moment, which can make it harder to fully assess its viability in the metagame.

Azelf B+ -> B
Azelf is being brought up for a drop due to its lack of an established niche in comparison to the rest of what it's currently ranked with. While its most known use is as a suicide lead, and it can certainly be annoying to deal with as it pursues that role, it's also fairly exploitable due to its predictability and the presence of Choice Scarf users like Hydreigon and Krookodile. Utilizing a suicide lead can also often be suboptimal strategy, due to the high usage of several defoggers and the current viability of several other offensive hazard setters. Despite all of this, Azelf is indefinitely one of the more unexplored Pokemon in UU, with several powerful Z-Move options at its disposal and a very useful Speed tier. Whether or not it should drop is a bit of a mixed bag, and is worth talking about in depth as a result.

Sylveon B+ -> B
Sylveon is in a bit of an odd place right now due to a few different factors. It's really only a comfortable on a rather unremarkable playstyle in balance, which limits its splashability and consistency. It also is more easily overwhelmed due to the prominence of several Pokemon capable of overwhelming it that weren't as popular as earlier on, such as Terrakion, Cobalion, Chandelure, and Heracross, some of which being Pokemon that in theory it should be capable of checking. It also doesn't love the increased presences of Nihilego and Empoleon. While it still retains solid defensive utility and checks several relevant special threats, the arguments in favor of a drop are more reasonable than earlier on in the metagame.

Rotom-H B -> B+
Rotom-H has been an up-and-coming threat for a while now, though in the metagame's current state, it has been able to distinguish itself enough from its main competitor in Rotom-C to possibly warrant residing in the same rank as its lawn-mowing counterpart. Acting as a reliable offensive check to Flying-types is very valuable tool at the moment, though it also has utility as a solid answer to several Pokemon that can be quite burdensome to the archetypes it fits best on, like Mega Manectric, Mega Altaria, and Mamoswine. Its main problems are its Stealth Rock weakness limiting its defensive capabilities and occasionally overwhelming itself as it tries accomplishing everything it wants to in a match. Due to beginning to establish more of a place for itself in the metagame than ever before, whether or not it should rise is certainly worth looking into.

Tsareeena B- -> B
Tsareena has returned to a decent place as a wallbreaker and spinner in the metagame, largely due to Mega Venusaur's ban. Pressuring the tier's myriad of popular Water- and Ground-types is a huge boon to its viability, while it also appreciates Crobat's decreased presence, Mega Altaria being less dominant, and the majority of its switch-ins being much less reliable at tanking its hits after minor chip damage, often in the form of Stealth Rock. What's potentially preventing it from rising most right now is the fact that Amoonguss is now beginning to fill in for Mega Venusaur in some respects, limiting Tsareena's opportunities to break as consistently, which all in all warrants some discussion on the matter.

Gligar UR -> C-
Gligar is still a relatively unexplored Pokemon, though its ability to fulfill a role similar to Gliscor's on stall and balanced teams could reasonably allow it a place lower in the rankings. It provides some really valuable utility in the forms of a Toxic immunity, reliably countering Mega Manectric, and reliable entry hazard removal thanks to its bulk and ability to deal with several popular setters, like Nihilego, Cobalion, and Mega Aggron. Its defensive utility is currently the most notable it's ever been, and whether or not it has enough proven use in the tier to justify a ranking is worth talking about.

 

[KM]

Discussion Points

Krookodile A -> A+ Disagree

As good as Krook is, the predictions it has to make means that in practice, it's often a momentum suck. While it's versatile and can run a variety of sets and sub-sets, it still has several very reliable switch-ins that can capitalize on the momentum Krook gives them. EQing on an altaria or Knock Offing a drag-z hydra is hugely punishing, and ultimately the upside that Krook brings isn't enough to make it an A+ pick. Additionally, Krook's choiced sets are often locked into either EQ or Pursuit, leaving them ripe for set-up sweepers, healing resets, and more.

Terrakion A -> A+ Agree

This should have happened a long time ago. Band and SD are both stellar sets, with SR / Scarf also being really useful. SD can utilize either Z-move or optionally choose to run Life Orb instead, which makes it devastating against balance and stall teams. Terrak's weakness to Scizor is easily patched up, and the offensive pressure and resistance to bug it brings means that Scizor virtually -has- to click bullet punch, allowing the Terrak user to easily maintain momentum. Additionally, the opposite-of-4MSS that Terrakion has allows it to run a number of niche 3rd and 4th moveslots that can be tailored to team's needs -- Quick Attack, Toxic, RestTalk, EQ, SR, and Iron Head all have viability in their own right.

Amoonguss A- -> A Disagree

I have yet to really be impressed by Amoonguss. It seems fairly easily worn down, as the current meta doesn't have enough Pokemon it can freely pivot into without running synthesis. While it fares well against bulky waters and Hippo, the meta has shifted much more towards bulky offensive pokemon, and teams that have LO Krook as their rocker don't mind Amoonguss in the same way. While Spore is certainly annoying, there's still plenty of readymade counterplay in the tier without having to resort to safety goggles Crobat or whatever. Amoonguss requires the sort of team support indicative of a A- pokemon, and while it's easy to throw it on a team the slot it takes up often isn't worth it unless it's really filling in a niche.

Azelf B+ -> B Agree

Lead Azelf gets dumpstered by the popularity of scarf Krook and volt-turn, and while I've tried my best to make other Azelf sets work (NP z-buginium, NP z-future sight, other offensive sets), they're ultimately just far too frail and offer too little in return. Azelf feels very much like something you throw on teams if you have no better idea for a suicide lead, not an actual meta game threat that enables a play style or is necessary to any particular popular and viable team format.

Sylveon B+ -> B no onion

Rotom-H B -> B+ AGREE

I've been on this train for weeks now, and it really is past time that Rotom-H climb further. Not only is it a premier scizor counter / check, it also shits on mamoswine, half shits on krook, beats non-waterium / fightinium toge, benefits from the venu ban, loves gliscor not existing, enjoys the lack of rhyperiors and swamperts running around, and just matches up really well into the current meta game. Pain Split sets have had the most success for me, with defensive Rocky Helm being a good niche pick but Firium-Z / lefties offensive being the strongest option.

Tsareeena B- -> B no onion

Gligar UR -> C- Eh lets wait

I have a suspicion that about half the gligar teams running around right now are just old gliscor teams where they swapped the two, and I have yet to really be convinced that it has a viable role in the meta. Unlike Gliscor, gligar has very little offensive pressure and really can only run defensive sets, which are notably weak to the Knock Off spam in the tier and also don't appreciate meta drops like Mamoswine. While Gligar seems like a good measure against the hp-ice less volt turn wave, I think it's more of a reactionary gimmick than it is something with lasting value that's worth being ranked, but only time will tell.

 

[justdrew]

I don't usually do long posts on discussion points but there's a first time for everything. I will be brief.

Discussion Points

Krookodile A -> A+

Such a good Choice Scarfer. Intimidate is very useful. Pursuit trapping is very good on most teams in the current meta. I fully support its rise to A+.

Terrakion A -> A+

I've made at least one or two posts in support of Terrakion rising. You can go back and read my posts but to summarize it is the best stall breaker in the tier, pair it with Future Sight Slowbro and kiss stall goodbye. It is very good as a lead rocker, Choice Scarfer, breaker, and sweeper. This Pokémon is too threatening and has too few checks to be A tier, A+ no doubt.

Amoonguss A- -> A

Splashable, bulky, and Rock Helmet is very useful. Spore is an amazing move and Amoonguss is the only Pokémon who can abuse it, definitely A worthy.

Azelf B+ -> B

I agree with everything Hilomilo said. Most teams can deal with lead Azelf perfectly and I find Choice Band, Choice Scarf, and Nasty Plot sets to be underwhelming. Considering how easy this mon is to revenge kill, I think it's due for a drop.

If you want a lead rocker for hyper offense use Nihilego or Terrakion. Much better in my opinion.

Sylveon B+ -> B

I hate wish passers because they lose momentum and I think balance is a bad strategy in this meta. I have no opinion but if it dropped I wouldn't mind.

Rotom-H B -> B+

I have always advocated for the Rotom's. I think that they are some of the best Defoggers in the tier and they deserve more usage. With either papa berry or Pain Split, Heatom is able to keep itself alive during the match. It is extremely useful versus offense and nasty Pokémon like Mamoswine, Mega Altaria, Scizor, and Moltres. With HP Grass it can easily lure Swampert and the rare Seismitoad and it can nuke Hippowdon with a Z move. It is a very useful tool for balance and it should definitely rise.

Tsareeena B- -> B

I strongly dislike how Tsareena does very little to Scizor without Knock Off and without U-Turn it loses so much momentum. I also dislike the fact that the most evil Water-type in this tier, Suicune, is able to 1v1 it. With Pokémon like Togekiss, Kommo, Amoonguss, Heracross, and Mega Altaria increasing in viability, I am unsure if Tsareena should rise. I don't really have a solid opinion but I am leaning towards no.

Gligar UR -> C-

This one I can't be brief.

Apologies to those of you who love Gligar but honestly I find it useless. Gliscor was UU's catch all Pokémon filling the roles of Defogger, Stealth Rocks setter, Swords Dance and/or Rock Polish sweeper, stall breaker, and others I failed to mention. The main reason for it being so popular and strong was its access to Poison Heal and its immunity to Scald burns. It could fit on archetypes from hyper offense to stall. With a decent attack stat Gliscor could actually do damage to opposing Pokémon and even had opportunities to 1v1 bulky Scizor with Fire Fang and hit Dragon-Types with Facade or Ice Fang. Gligar enters the tier as a significantly worse doppelganger. It may have slightly better defenses but it is a do-nothing Pokémon by nature. To be slightly extreme it is the Forretress of Ground-types. It is set up on by sweepers like Scizor, Kommo, Suicune, Togekiss, Mega Altaria, Reuniclus, Celebi, Heracross who has increased in usage, Latias, etc. Notice the tiers most terrifying, viable, and well used Pokémon dominate Gligar. Being more susceptible to Knock Off and Scald burns, Gligar is 90% less useful than Gliscor ever was. I don't think VR has a place for this Pokémon.

Thanks for reading!

 

[Adaam]

itsjustdrew

Most of the Pokemon in C-/C are “garbage” but are still ranked for the small niche they present. Gligar is objectively worse than Gliscor. Much worse. Nobody will challenge this, but with Gliscor gone denying its niche is wrong. Gligar can check Terrakion, Cobalion, Infernape, Mega Manectric, and Nihilego while providing hazard support. We just ranked Pallossand for countering a handful of things so why can’t we do the same for Gligar? A lot of the Pokemon you mentioned it sets up on simply get slow U-Turned on, so it’s passivity not much of an issue as you say it is. Remember that the barrier for entering C- is really low, so even if the niche is small, it’s a niche nonetheless.

 

[Jade]

Hey, don't really have much of an opinion on these changes (that I care to or haven't shown at least) so I just wan't to talk about Terrakion for a moment. While it is certainly a threat that should be prepared for and can smash through a lot of builds, I still believe that it should definitely stay A, at least until further notice.

Let me just start by saying that Terrakion is a top-tier threat. I won't deny this in the slightest. It has 130 attack with a respectable 108 speed to boot that can also be boosted by Rock Polish, space to run a niche 4th moveslot on set up sets, and a decent ability in Justified, which allows it to take advantage of mons locked into Dark type moves. However I really think people have been overhyping it since shifts, and, imo, Terrakion's flaws are too great for it to rise.

To start, Terrakion's typing defensively is terrible. 7 weaknesses with 3 (or 4) of them being incredibly common doesn't help its case in the slightest. It lacks any defensive utility aside from functioning as a Knock absorber for locked mons. It certainly doesn't help with its splashability either. If Terrakion was more splashable, then maybe I'd agree on it rising.

Maybe this is just a personal problem, but since the Breloom ban, I've fit Terrakion on none of my about 100 teams. As a stallbreaker, I prefer Heracross as a Fighting type stallbreaker since Gliscor is gone (and I honestly wouldn't consider them 2 subranks apart). Although I haven't tried Terrakion + Future Sight, its probably a viable strategy but I still wouldn't consider it above Heracross as something to break stall (it doesn't help that you have to use Reuniclus or Slowbro, the former who is vulnerable to getting Pursuit trapped and also offers not much defensive utility, while Slowbro can be hard to build around).

One last note, it seems like people are overhyping Terrakion due to its answers (see: Doublade, Palossand, Slowbro and its mega), getting low usage. If Terrakion is super threatening and you lose to it, then why don't you use its answers? There's also the fact that it seems the meta isn't adapting to it hard enough. The mons I mentioned above seem to have very low usage, allowing Terrakion to roam free and wreck havoc upon Offensive teams and Defensive teams alike. Overrall, if you did read this post, thanks for sticking with me. Feel free to reply if you disagree or w/e.

edit: Terrakion will also usually only set up a maximum of twice per game unless your opponent is or plays bad. From what I've seen, if it has Rock Polish, it will also only set up one or the other (I've never seen a Terrak set up both boosts at the same time). CB sets, while good, can also often be pressured into playing a 50/50 on what STAB to use.

 

[Taptricity]

Time to go change my formatting again. I’ll go talk about the discussion points and then make some noms of my own.

Discussion Points:​

Krookodile to A+=Disagree

Reasoning

I was at one point agreeing with a Krook rise but now I think it has enough that’s holding it back from being A+. Don’t get me wrong, it is definitely the best Scarfer in the tier and packs a lot of versatility outside of a Choice Scarf (LO Rocks or even Steelium to bop incoming fairies), but its Scarf set heavily relies on 50/50s in order to get the job done. I’ve lost my Krook before from losing the 50/50 and that sucks. Keep Krook where it’s at.

Terrakion to A+=Agree

Reasoning

Why is Terrakion having too much trouble switching in an argument against it? Breloom had issues switching in because of its Grass/Fighting typing along with its poor speed and we all know how that went down. I’ll say it again and again, Terrakion has given me a massive constraint on teambuilding. When Terrakion finds a way to get in, you’re almost guaranteed to lose a mon a to it even when it’s unboosted. The fact that Palossand is a decent nichemon and not just a complete joke speaks to how threatening this mon is.

Amoongus to A=Disagree

Reasoning

I’m surprised that the sentient mushroom is being brought up as a discussion point because nothing has convinced me yet on why it should rise. Even with Regenerator, it’s easily exploitable and can only really function as a defensive pivot. The opponent can use a more passive mon on their team as sleep fodder. Amoongus also loses to every relevant stallbreaker in the tier which are back and better than ever with the return of Heracross and even loses to more niche ones like Decidueye (speaking of Decidueye, why am I even doing a vr post and not finishing that analysis lol).

Azelf to B=Ehhh drop it for now.

Reasoning

I don’t really have any experience with Azelf, but from what I’ve seen it’s a mediocre suicide lead. I agree with the notion that it’s one of the most unexplored Pokémon in the tier, but until someone makes a better Azelf set popular, it’s safe to say that Azelf should probably drop for the time being.

Rotom Heat to B+=HARD AGREE

This is not even reasoning anymore Heattom should just rise.

Just put it in the same rank with its lawnmower brother. What’s very telling about Heattom is that it would’ve rose this month if it was a legitimate tier shift. Heattom rising isn’t a discussion point, it’s a necessity. Great anti-meta mon and it needs to rise.

Sylveon to B=Agree

Reasoning

Sylveon is at a bit of an awkward spot. Balance is a decent playstyle in the tier the issue is that Sylveon is a mediocre pick for Balance. Sylveon has been forced to run Moonblast over Hyper Voice just so it can hit Kommo-o in case it’s Soundproof (Soundproof Kommo-o is memes at this point imo) and Hyper Voice really isn’t needed anymore with Serp gone, making Pixilate kinda useless. Also the mons that it should check can end up exploiting its defenses as long as it hits hard enough. Sylveon just seems too passive and a momentum drain and can only fit on Balance so I think a drop is needed.

Tsareena to B=Abstain
Tsareena has gotten better but nothing about it has caught my attention yet with it so I’m just not gonna discuss it.

Gligar to C-=Idgaf just rank it I guess.

Lol what’s up with Gligar’s gen 5 sprite

I’m not really convinced that Gligar should be ranked considering that the teams that I do see it on are just using it as a substitute for Gliscor which is something that it’s not but it should probably be ranked anyway. It does appreciate that Mega Mane isn’t using HP Ice anymore and it can be a decent Terrakion check but it’s no Gliscor and that’s why C- is probably a good place for it to start in the VR. Hell I’d use any other C- mon in the rankings over Gligar any day but rank it I guess.

My Noms​

Primarina to A+

Reasoning

Ah yes Prima, Prima, Prima. The RestTalk set is a monster on BO and it has punished the resurgance of Fighting types in the tier whether burning them or Moonblasting them to oblivion. I’ve found Primarina to be too threatening to be just A seeing that it can also run Specs with its near perfect coverage. I think it’s a threat that people seem to forget and I think that it should be A+.

Mega Houndoom to B+

Yup I’ve joined the bandwagon.

Free Mega Doom. It’s that plain and simple.

Lucario to B

Reasoning

This is the other mon that would’ve rose if August was a legitimate tier shift. Lucario to B is now kinda overdue with Mega Venu and Gliscor gone. It is a really solid late game cleaner after and SD boost and abuses the Dark spam in the tier. Tbh though every Fighting type has improved since Gliscor’s departure so this was bound to happen soon anyway.

Mega Sceptile to B-

Viv’s an idol

Yeah Mega Scept shouldn’t be among the C+ ranks. Mega Mane doesn’t use HP Ice anymore which lets Mega Sceptile abuse Lightning Rod and Mega Sceptile has a different set to plow through different checks. It has AoA, Physical SD, and Mixed as 3 different options allowing Mega Sceptile to have some versatility. It’s one of the fastest Pokémon in the unboosted metagame with some strength behind it and it feels out of place in the C ranks.

Mienshao to C+

Reasoning

I am a massive advocate for a Mienshao rise. Reckless High Jump Kick hits like a truck to anything that doesn’t resist it and common Mienshao switch ins being Mega Slowbro and Mantine have lacked usage. Are there better revenge killers in the tier? Yes. Does it face tons of competition from other Choice Scarf users? Double Yes. But Mienshao has been given a lot more breathing room and it has enough going for it to rise.

Thanks for going through this long post if you’ve read all of it. Time to go back into hibernation until the next update.

 

[vivalospride]

Aight uh here're some of my shitty thoughts:

Mienshaolin to C+ - Sure
Ye Gliscor left, why would it stay where it's at. This mon still makes me say "why not just use Infernape" most of the time, but it's got a niche in the fact that it does a shit ton of damage w/ Reckless HJK compared to Nape's mediocre Atk stat. I think C+ is a good spot for it.

Luke to B - Ye
Idk why this hasn't happened yet, I remember one time pif asked the uu chat what we all thought looked out of place on the vr. If Hilo had done something like that I would have immediately said this mon. Gliscor rose and that seriously helps SD Luke so fuckin much while NP Luke has been slept on for ages and is still an amazing mon to have vs fat and tr.

Mega Doom to B+ - Yuh
This mon has been slept on for ages now and I don't really understand why. Give it a boost please, it has an absurd SpA stat, has a good ghost matchup, has access to Taunt for fat matchup or even Sludge Bomb for Malt and Prima, etc. Dope mon.

Tsareena to B - Nah
Yes mvenu left but like, guss just gets better because of it, did Tsareena go down 2 ranks cuz of mvenu + guss coming into the tier? If so then ig I can agree on this raising... but I'm pretty sure it only went down one rank and even if mvenu never came to UU, i'd say guss is enough to make it drop a rank. I still like Tsareena as an offensive spinner tho, B- seems like a good fit for now.

Reminder to rank Galv and raise Mscept, oh and rise water spider about 2 more ranks n_n

 

[Smallsmallrose]

Back to B-
I may not be taken seriously since I'm proposing a rise on a mon that just got recently dropped, but I'm a little saddened this mon didn't get a proper discussion grounding it's drop because I would have been one of the biggest oppositions to it dropping into the C ranks. Hell, I would have proposed it for a RISE before Hilomilo's post came out. Mega Steelix really has been liking some of the meta trends. It appreciates that many ground types are struggling with Manectric-Mega as hard as it is, as it truly gives it more chance to size up the competition like Rhyperior and Swampert. I'd even argue it accels because of this in the sense that it's defensive synergy with our dragons like Hydreigon and especially Latias is solid, letting it take full advantage of the ground + dragon trend that many teams are using to beat Mega Manectric. Also while not horribly common, it's arguably a better Raikou check than a good chunk of it's competition in the face of HP grass, in addition to handling Raikou's Z-move sets like Z-hyper beam better than some of the ground-type competition. Steelix-Mega also finds solace in the fact that Electrium-Z Latias is asserting itself as a trend, perhaps partially because of Empoleon's performance, and the few electrium Nihilegos that I've seen reply to the same trend. Regardless, Steelix enjoys being the best steel for taking on Electrium Lati and other Empo lures, as any meta where Electrium Lati is decent, Steelix by extension is decent. Speaking of Latias and Electrics, Steelix is also lends itself for being a steel type that isn't nearly as weak to the dragmag cores that keep Magneton in the fray. It takes pitiful damage from Magneton's strongest attack against it (Only taking 40 or so from specs HP fire, a vast improvement over the 60 or more that most steels take from it's neutral or super effective thunderbolts and HP fires) Sure, Steelix may not be blowing anyone out of the water since it still isn't super fond of the Rotom Brothers or Manectric-Mega, but that argument can be made for ground types much higher ranked than Steelix right now, nearly making this point moot. It's typing, which is often seen as a double-edge sword, is arguably more of a boon in this meta, as it checks electrics reliant on the HP grass trend to blow past Steelix's ground type competition, and lends it to checking mons that try to that try to chew into into their checks such as Empoleon and it's steel-type buddies with gigavolt havoc. Steelix may not like it's weird typing and certain trends, but I think that typing is what it always has been: A double-edged sword. And I think the benefits of this double edged sword are more pronounced in this meta. I think being a generally lure-proof Lati check that synergizes well with dragons while being a volt immunity and still beating certain, admittedly less common electrics makes me think Steelix isn't being looked at hard enough right now. It's still kinda niche, sure, but I think it's a terribly underrated niche that is much more powerful than some of the mons in C+. I think Steelix could rise back to B- due to this.

 

[Taptricity]

PSYCHE! I’m back bitches! So for now I have two more noms that I’m here to bring up because something has stuck out to me in the vr and I’m going to expose it.

Swampert to B+

Empoleon to A

These two noms were kind of brought up on Discord. Swampert and Hippo sharing the same rank has always been rather off on the vr and so it was either us dropping Swampert or raising Hippo and since I already beat the shit out of Seismitoad like a stereotypical bully that wants your lunch money while making you scream Uncle, I might as well do the same to Swampert.

So for starters Swampert seems to be struggling for the same reasons that Rhyperior is struggling. Mega Mane and Heattom are now freely using Hp Grass more preventing Swampert from switching in. On account of that Mowtom is becoming a more defining pick again and Nihilego has been running Grass Knot more often than not to fuck over opposing setters. This puts Swamperts in the grounds for a drop. It simply has fallen out of favor.

As for Empoleon, a rise to A- was long overdue for it but why stop there? Empoleon has become a phenomenal pick because with each passing day, Primarina and Mega Shark are becoming more deadly. I already talked in my last post about how strong Prima is atm so raise the one mon that can wall it. Empoleon gets so many tools in its kit that it’s not even funny. RoarTect Emp is a very viable strategy where Empoleon can Roar out set up sweepers and Protect to maximize leftovers recovery. Overall, Empoleon is an amazing blanket check and I think a rise is in favor for it.

Gotta get through noms and noms and noms am I right?

 

[Bebo]

Here's a couple of my thoughts on the current nominations. Enjoy :D

Terrakion A--->A+ - Disagree

I disagree with this nomination because, Terrakion struggles to set up a Swords Dance or a Rock Polish due to Rock / Fighting being a trash defensive typing. In addition, it's really easy to revenge kill because, while 108 is a good Speed tier, it's still vulnerable to priority and faster attackers like Scizor, Mega Aerodactyl, Scarf Hydreigon, Scarf Infernape, and Latias. I also find it realy hard to fit Terrakion onto teams, as I never find myself saying "wow, this team really needs a Terrakion", while other A+ Pokemon like Togekiss and Hydreigon fill that criteria for me, which is what separates it from A and A+ in my opinion.

Azelf B+--->B - Agree

Azelf's main set is the suicide lead set, which is only viable on hyper offense. While it does have other sets such as Nasty Plot and Choice Band, they're unexplored and hard to fit onto teams. I find it very easy to revenge kill Azelf with Pokemon such as Krookodile, Choice Scarf Hydreigon, and Mega Aerodactyl because it's really frail and its typing sucks defensively. Off the merit of its suicide lead set alone, it's not worth rising to B+ and I think B is a fine rank for it as it currently stands.

Rotom-Heat B--->B+- Agree

I've been using Rotom-H a lot recently, and I've been really liking it as a Flying resist. Iapapa Berry really helps with Rotom-H's lack of recovery outside of Pain Split, making it way more reliable at checking Flying-types such as Mega Pidgeot, Togekiss, and Moltres. It checks a really high amount of common Pokemon such as Scizor, Moltres, and Mega Manectric, which is why I often find myself slapping Rotom-H onto teams, since it just covers so many Pokemon at once, easing building pressure. Its decent Speed stat allows it to get Volt Switches and Defogs off as well, which is just utility added to the top of the cake. Iapapa Berry isn't its only item option, either, as it can also run Choice Scarf, outspeeding big threats like Mega Aerodactyl, Mega Beedrill, and Mega Pidgeot, and with Choice Scarf it just spams Volt Switch more freely as well. Specifically, it's a really good Togekiss check, which is a huge threat right now. Swampert falling in usage also helps it a lot as a Defogger, which was one of its biggest problems before. Overall, it's a great pick right now and definitely deserves the rise.

Tsareena B- ---> B - Disagree

I disagree with Tsareena rising to B because, Nothing has changed recently for Tsareena to rise. If anything, these shifts made things worse for Tsareena, as threats like Mamoswine and Amoonguss dropping back into UU suck big time for it, especially Amoonguss, which it can't really break through. I don't really see what the current meta trends offer Tsareena to the point where it would rise to B, and I think it's currently placed fine in B-. Also, Gliscor leaving sucked for Tsareena too, as Tsareena pretty much switched into it for free. Swampert's usage dropping also sucks for it, as it's one less Pokemon that it can take advantage of.

Gligar UR--->C- - Agree

Clearly, Gligar is no Gliscor and is nowhere near as good as Gliscor was, but that's why it should be on the lower end of the VR near C- or C. It works well on stall, as it can check big threats such as Terrakion, deals with Mega Manectric (as no one runs Hidden Power Ice anymore) and is an amazing Defogger. It's also immune to Toxic, which is really nice for a defensive wall, as it can't get worn down as easily and has reliable recovery in Roost to keep it healthy throughout the entire match. It also gets really helpful utility moves like U-turn, Stealth Rock, and Knock Off, and all of this combined makes me think that Gligar easily deserves a rank potentially even higher than C-, such as in C or C+.

Swampert A- ---> B+ - Agree

With Amoonguss recently dropping in the most recent shift, Swampert has lost a lot of its viability. Gliscor rising means that every Manectric is running Hidden Power Grass, which makes Swampert lose one of its best uses in being a great check to Manectric, but now it gets easily 2HKOed and can't really switch in in fear of Hidden Power Grass. It doesn't have reliable recovery like other Stealth Rock setters do, with examples being Hippowdon and Blissey. I especially think that Hippowdon is significantly better right now, as it checks Manectric more reliably and has better physical bulk, making it much better right now, in my opinion.

Empoleon A- --->A - Agree

Empoleon is a very solid pick right now. It's an amazing Flying check; honestly, I could even argue that Empoleon is possibly A+ material. Every time I'm building a standard bulky build I'll always fit an Empoleon on the team, as it gives me a solid Flying check and an amazing Defogger in one slot, and it's really bulky, which helps it check Pokemon like Latias without Z-Thunder, Speca Primarina, and non-All-Out-Pummeling Togekiss. I really like Toxic / Protect as well, as even if it's low it can get a lot of its health back with smart doubles and Protect giving you a free 6% back anyways; Protect also allows you to absorb Z-Moves, which is also really good. You also have the choice of using Stealth Rock Empoleon and also Knock Off.


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Here's my thoughts on a couple nominations I don't really care for:

Amoonguss A- --->A - Disagree

Sylveon B+--->B - Disagree

M-Lix C+--->B- - Agree

Lucario B- ---> B - Agree

Mega-Houndoom B---> B+ - Agree

 

[QY_CS]

Discussion:

Krookodile A -> A+: Abstain
The utility of Krookodile is kinda in the middle. It sits fine on either tier.

Terrakion A -> A+: Hell yes
Terrakion is an extremely threatening pokemon in the current meta, being able to either set up or attack with band better than ever. Close Combat can be spammed with Gliscor gone, since the other dominant pokemons Latias and Scizor struggles to take it safely.

Amoonguss A- -> A: WTF
If anything should happen to Amoonguss it would be a drop, not a rise. Serperior was a major reason why people pivoted with Amoonguss, and its gone. There are many better choices as a pivot. Spore might be worthy, but there are many counterplays.

Azelf B+ -> B: Disagree
Azelf is one of the most reliable lead right now, giving offensive team a great advantage to hazards most of the time. It's Nasty Plot set, while not as common, are also very threatening and dismantles teams that are surprised by it. There's no reason for such a mon to drop.

Sylveon B+ -> B: Agree
Sylveon, while still being a great pokemon, suffers from competitions with other Fairy types such as Togekiss and Primarina. I personally haven't used Sylveon but its not a big deal facing it.

Rotom-H B -> B+: Agree
Gliscor's gone, for sure its gonna rise.

Tsareena B- -> B: Abstain
Didn't know that was a thing in UU meta, whatever.

Gligar UR -> C-: Disagree
Gligar is NOT a Gliscor substitute. It's useless and there straight on not worth using. Or at least not until UU starts shifting even more towards fighting meta. If any, throw it into D rank so no one talks about it anymore.

Noms:

Primarina A -> A+
When a UU roommod first brought up the rest talk set to me I wasn't convinced at all. But when I tried it I figured out that it's a nightmare for teams to face, effectively stopping many top tier threats and being a top tier threat itself. The specs set is way too overpowered as always. With this diversity, it definietly should rise.

Empoleon A- -> A
Too many reasonings above, not even gonna bother saying stuff bout it. It's reliable, solid, and unique, and benifits from the tier shift.

Gengar B+ -> A/A-
Gengar is an extremely versatile pokemon in the current UU meta. The only pokemon that can reliably switch in to Gengar in the S and A tiers is Blissey, whom barely runs a move that can hit Gengar anyways. While Gengar is weak to Pursuit, it can utilize Destiny Bond to bring down a slower Pursuit trapper out of surprise or run Colbur Berry, making Pursuit a mindgame rather than a straight on flaw, providing Gengar is not running Choice Specs.

Starmie A- -> B/B+
This pokemon gives way too many opportunities for opposing teams. With Gliscor gone, Starmie struggles to fit in most teams.

Alomomola A- -> A
Alomomola is a solid pokemon that can effectively block many of the more relevant physical attackers with Gliscor gone. The Serperior rise also gave Alomomola more breathing space. Alomomola is capable of keeping the whole team healthy, and can support teammates to repeatedly switch into threats that Alomomola cannot take by herself.

 

[Taptricity]

Discussion:

Krookodile A -> A+: Abstain
The utility of Krookodile is kinda in the middle. It sits fine on either tier.

Terrakion A -> A+: Hell yes
Terrakion is an extremely threatening pokemon in the current meta, being able to either set up or attack with band better than ever. Close Combat can be spammed with Gliscor gone, since the other dominant pokemons Latias and Scizor struggles to take it safely.

Amoonguss A- -> A: WTF
If anything should happen to Amoonguss it would be a drop, not a rise. Serperior was a major reason why people pivoted with Amoonguss, and its gone. There are many better choices as a pivot. Spore might be worthy, but there are many counterplays.

Azelf B+ -> B: Disagree
Azelf is one of the most reliable lead right now, giving offensive team a great advantage to hazards most of the time. It's Nasty Plot set, while not as common, are also very threatening and dismantles teams that are surprised by it. There's no reason for such a mon to drop.

Sylveon B+ -> B: Agree
Sylveon, while still being a great pokemon, suffers from competitions with other Fairy types such as Togekiss and Primarina. I personally haven't used Sylveon but its not a big deal facing it.

Rotom-H B -> B+: Agree
Gliscor's gone, for sure its gonna rise.

Tsareena B- -> B: Abstain
Didn't know that was a thing in UU meta, whatever.

Gligar UR -> C-: Disagree
Gligar is NOT a Gliscor substitute. It's useless and there straight on not worth using. Or at least not until UU starts shifting even more towards fighting meta. If any, throw it into D rank so no one talks about it anymore.

Noms:

Primarina A -> A+
When a UU roommod first brought up the rest talk set to me I wasn't convinced at all. But when I tried it I figured out that it's a nightmare for teams to face, effectively stopping many top tier threats and being a top tier threat itself. The specs set is way too overpowered as always. With this diversity, it definietly should rise.

Empoleon A- -> A
Too many reasonings above, not even gonna bother saying stuff bout it. It's reliable, solid, and unique, and benifits from the tier shift.

Gengar B+ -> A/A-
Gengar is an extremely versatile pokemon in the current UU meta. The only pokemon that can reliably switch in to Gengar in the S and A tiers is Blissey, whom barely runs a move that can hit Gengar anyways. While Gengar is weak to Pursuit, it can utilize Destiny Bond to bring down a slower Pursuit trapper out of surprise or run Colbur Berry, making Pursuit a mindgame rather than a straight on flaw, providing Gengar is not running Choice Specs.

Starmie A- -> B/B+
This pokemon gives way too many opportunities for opposing teams. With Gliscor gone, Starmie struggles to fit in most teams.

Alomomola A- -> A
Alomomola is a solid pokemon that can effectively block many of the more relevant physical attackers with Gliscor gone. The Serperior rise also gave Alomomola more breathing space. Alomomola is capable of keeping the whole team healthy, and can support teammates to repeatedly switch into threats that Alomomola cannot take by herself.

I’m sorry, but no, no, no, no, NO, NO! I strongly disagree with a Starmie drop. Starmie by its very nature is supposed to force mons to switch out and it punishes mons brought in that are faster than it. If anything, Starmie should rise because it will put your opponent into deadly 50/50s where if they guess wrong, they will most likely lose a mon. Also in what way did Gliscor leaving make Starmie worse? Starmie has always had an issue with fitting onto teams. I personally prefer its AoA set over Rapid Spin but that’s just my personal preference. Life Orb combined with Analytic makes Starmie terrifying to face especially if you guess wrong.

Now regarding Gengar, Gengar dropped on the basis that Chandelure is simply the better pick in the current meta. Chandelure’s Sub CM set is its best set and it finds tons of opportunities to set up while dealing massive chip to Krookodile and Hydreigon. Chandelure also has a much better time mitigating its Pursuit weakness with Will-o-wisp and Sub. And while Blissey really can’t touch Gengar or Chandelure, Chandelure makes Blissey complete set up fodder with Sub CM while Gengar is just at a stalemate as it can’t really touch Blissey.

Finally, I’ll discuss Gligar. Of course Gligar is never going to be as good as Gliscor, but there are at least a few benefits to using it like not outright losing to Heracross with stall. C- exists for mons like Gligar. Mediocre at best, but they succeed with the niche they are supposed to have and while Gligar is no Gliscor, in a meta without the flying scorpion, Gligar has a purpose.

tldr: Don’t drop Starmie, keep Gengar where it’s at, and rank Gligar.

 

[mashonem]

New nom time

Drop

to B-

Yeah, two sub ranks is a harsh drop, but this thing got way worse since the MVenu ban. Sure, it can work as a Flying/Lati/Drei check, and teams that lack a fat Water or Ground or the rare Vacuum Wave/Mach Punch priority lose to it with one setup turn, but how many teams lack any of that? Flying type usage has dropped since the ban, some combination of Hippo/Pert/Quag/Cune exists on every team, and Fighting type mons have only gotten better in the past few weeks. The fact that this mon is somehow ranked above a mon that lowkey counters Mamoswine of all things is an absolute travesty.

Speaking of:

Rise

to B+

Now that Mamo has dropped and Serp has left, this thing should at the very least be the same rank as Rotom-C. Checking Mamo, Toge, Moltres, and MBird, this mon should at the very least share rank with it's grass brethren.

Also:

Keep

A

I don't understand the hype here. The Scarf set is too much of a momentum sink in order to support a rise to A+, and its speed becomes a serious liability without it. You can say that it has other sets, but let's be real, we're all talking about Scarf. While Scarf can scare out a lot of mons and trap Lati, it allows your opponent to set up for free with their Coba/Terrak/Luke/Dark Resist.