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Drampa is a really undiscovered gem the current metagame has. Here are some sets I have been playing around with. The massive special attack stat paired with great abilities such as Beserk and Sap Sipper while having the access to reliable recovery in Roost makes it a terrifying pokemon to deal with. Drampa can counter really threatening wallbreakers like Decidueye and Dhelmise, Pressure Rotom builds, switch into Slowbro and Slowking for free (if they aren't running Ice Beam) and fire off massive hits. It can also work as a soft check to Incineroar while breaking common defensive cores, such as BroLix, Rhydon+Slowbro, Diancie+Incineroar and others. Waterium Z paired with Surf lets Drampa assure the OHKO on Diancie while also destroying Steelix and Rhydon in one slot. Chople Berry can be pretty fun to lure in Passimian and OHKO it back with Draco Meteor or Hyper Voice. Drampa is a pretty fun mon to use and has almost no switch ins, however it speed tier sucks so Pokemon such as Vanilluxe, Medicham and Comfey can make it a bit hard to use.
252 SpA Slowbro Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Drampa: 133-157 (36.9 - 43.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
160+ SpA Drampa Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Slowbro: 126-148 (31.9 - 37.5%) -- 92.7% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Incineroar Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 96 Def Drampa: 150-177 (41.6 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
160+ SpA Drampa Hydro Vortex (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 132+ SpD Incineroar: 350-412 (88.8 - 104.5%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
160+ SpA Drampa Hydro Vortex (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Diancie: 284-336 (93.4 - 110.5%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Diancie Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Drampa: 308-366 (85.5 - 101.6%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
160+ SpA Drampa Hydro Vortex (175 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Steelix: 566-668 (160.3 - 189.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Steelix Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 96 Def Drampa: 138-163 (38.3 - 45.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
160+ SpA Drampa Hydro Vortex (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 240 SpD Eviolite Rhydon: 684-808 (165.2 - 195.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
16+ Atk Rhydon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 96 Def Drampa: 154-183 (42.7 - 50.8%) -- 3.1% chance to 2HKO
160+ SpA Drampa Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom: 280-330 (92.1 - 108.5%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Passimian Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 96 Def Chople Berry Drampa: 190-225 (52.7 - 62.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
160+ SpA Drampa Draco Meteor vs. -1 0 HP / 4 SpD Passimian: 510-601 (149.5 - 176.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
160+ SpA Drampa Hyper Voice vs. -1 0 HP / 4 SpD Passimian: 354-417 (103.8 - 122.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Steelworker Dhelmise Heavy Slam (40 BP) vs. 252 HP / 96 Def Drampa: 111-132 (30.8 - 36.6%) -- 63.5% chance to 3HKO
+2 252 Atk Decidueye All-Out Pummeling (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 96 Def Chople Berry Drampa: 311-367 (86.3 - 101.9%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
Personally, I’m fine with Drampa being ranked as it has a slight niche thanks to its typing, abilities, and especially the dropping of Decidueye and Dhelmise; I have seen a number of Drampas and it’s not something to totally write-off. However, it still largely lives in the shadow of Alolan Exeggutor and Guzzlord, especially on the offensive front. Both of these two are now largely established offensive presences that threaten a vast majority of the, if not the entire, metagame. I think Drampa would be fine in C- or maybe C, but no higher for the time being.
On this note, Alolan Exeggutor should rise to at least B+ from C+. The specs set with speed investment outruns a large portion of balance teams/cores and it has no hard counters. It’s one of the best special hole punchers and I’ve seen it as one since Sand metagame ended. Overall, I’ve used it in Open to great success and while it has only seen one usage in Snake, the level of threat it posed was clear there and I’m positive it will pick up with time. Use fast specs with Draco, Leaf Storm, Flame, and Giga — you’ll see how threatening it is and easy to get in safely given current metagame conditions and trends. It’s amazing and very underrated rn.
Finally, Druddigon’s and Taunt set is great to control the hazard game and chip things while outright managing the tempo in the early game better than just about any other individual Pokemon. I think Druddigon should go from B to B+ or A-. Additionally, Torterra is probably the second most common SRer in Snake, behind Steelix who is clearly top tier, and the SDef SD set is also picking up over time, as it should. It counters Heliolisk’s normal set to the point where people like Kushalos are adapting and using HP Ice > Dark Pulse to still hit the Ghost/Dark types, but also do a ton to Torterra. Overall, Torterra is a great metagame pick even if Xatu is fantastic right now and the metagame is feeling the effects of its usage and even adapting, so it should probably move up to A. And last, but not least, Piloswine has fallen off the face of the earth with other Stealth Rockers dominating usage it normally can take up and alternative counterplay to Vanilluxe popping up (Incineroar, Hariyama, Silvally-Steelix, Alolan-Sandslash, etc) and should drop from B+ to B or B-.
-> C-/C
Alright guys, it's about that damn time. If you've been on Pokemon Showdown or Discord at all, then you'd know that I've fallen in love with this Pokemon. I don't think it's super outstanding for the record, which is why I am only nomming it to C-/C, just so there isn't any confusion (in case people claim I think it's the best Utility Tank lol). Anyway, this nomination is kind of going to be a bit in depth, so I'm going to split it into parts to make it easier to read for people on different knowledge levels of Stunfisk. For those who just wanna read the actual nomination stuff skip to Part II.
Part I: What The Hell is a Stunfisk?
So I'm fairly certain at least 15% of you have never heard of a Stunfisk before, but basically it's a Ground- / Electric-type which was introduced in generation 5. With that out of the way, what kind of things does Stunfisk actually offer? Well, Stunfisk is esentially a utility tank which has some nice utility moves. Here are the five moves that you'll generally be running on Stunfisk:
Discharge
Earth Power
Stealth Rock
Toxic
Pain Split
The thing with these moves is that the first three are pretty much mandatory. Why you may want to run Toxic or Pain Split is something we'll talk about a bit later. But as you can see out of these moves, Stunfisk is essentially there to be an annoyance, and this will be talked about more in the next part. What about Stunfisk's bulk? Stunfisk is actually kind of really bulky with 109/84/99 bulk. This means it can easily take hits on both the physical and special side, which as you'll find out is incredibly useful, and is the main reason Stunfisk is good in the first place. With the nitty gritty stuff out of the way, here's the actual nomination:
Part II: How Does Stunfisk Actually Fit Into the Meta?
Now I am sure you skeptics are now wondering, what does Stunfisk even do in this meta? Well for one, the thing that stands out to me the most is the fact that it beats Braviary, which has been on a usage increase for quite some time now. Not only does it have that key resistance to Brave Bird, but it can also eat Superpowers really well, and have a good chance to paralyze with Discharge + Static. It also gives Stunfisk a free opportunity to set up Stealth Rock. Now you could argue things like Roar Steelix and Diancie are just as effective at beating Braviary, but I haven't finished yet.
Another thing that makes Stunfisk a viable option is that it is able to deal with VoltTurn. Now I'm not necessarily talking about the Pokemon themselves, but rather the combination of Volt Switch + U-Turn. The most obvious pair in regards to that is Passimian + Heliolisk. Passimian is the more likely of the two to get a taste of Stunfisk, as every time Passimian clicks U-Turn (which is doing 0 to Stunfisk), there is a 30% chance that it's getting paralyzed, which is bad news for Passimian. What about if it were to click Close Combat? That still runs the same risk of getting paralyzed, and the Stunfisk spread that I've been using actually takes around 40% from CC as you'll see in the calcs. But, then there's Earthquake, which isn't even a contact move, and Stunfisk takes supereffective damage from it. Well, Earthquake is actually not as common as it used to be, and almost everyone is running Gunk Shot as of late to hit things like Comfey and Whimsicott if that ever comes around. ALSO, Earthquake doesn't even 2HKO Stunfisk from full! This means you have a good chance of getting off Paralysis with Discharge, and even getting some health back with Pain Split if you'd like. In terms of Heliolisk, while it certainly isn't taking a Surf from Life Orb and Choice Specs sets, it is pretty much eating every other hit, meaning every time Heliolisk comes in it's pretty much a 50/50, which is usually good for the player who is enforcing it.
Those are pretty much the two things that Stunfisk really stands out at dealing with, although there are definitely others. Pretty much anything with contact attacks have the chance to get paralyzed by this pancake-looking mon. Even Pokemon that don't do as well, thanks to Discharge. Speaking of Discharge, that's one of the things that makes it such an avid Stealth Rock user. While Stealth Rock users do have their own ways to beat Xatu, Stunfisk does too in Discharge, and it is just as effective if not more than some of the non-Rock-type Stealth Rock users such as Steelix, thanks to the chance of paralysis and high damage.
Not to mention, Stunfisk is also just really good at taking physical hits in general. That's pretty much a summary of what Stunfisk does; eat physical hits, while effectively dealing with VoltTurn cores + Braviary. There's really not much to say about it outside of that, and while it doesn't sound too impressive, when you think about it on the grand scale of things, Braviary and VoltTurn are really stupid popular right now, meaning Stunfisk will definitely see a lot of action.
OH and lastly, Pain Split vs Toxic. So, what I like about Pain Split is that while it doesn't give you too much HP since Stunfisk usually has more HP than it's opponents, I've found it comes in clutch to get me out of certain 3HKOs and such. Toxic is probably better to chip down Stunfisk's switch ins, but I've been using Pain Split and I've liked it.
Part III: Example Sets
So there are two sets that I've formulated in the lab, so here those are with some explanations:
So this set is the alternative set, with enough Speed to creep up to Palossand. This is why this set actually recommends Toxic over Pain Split, because if you're out speeding Palossand, you'll probably want to Toxic it rather than do 25ish with Earth Power. If you choose to run Pain Split instead, the spread is still useful in the sense that you can get off a Pain Split before they kill you with Earth Power, meaning you can probably get some health back. Either way, Toxic is still probably better to use here.
Part IV: Calculations
Here are some of the calculations I mentioned above:
252 Atk Passimian Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Stunfisk: 150-177 (35.5 - 41.9%) -- 84.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Passimian Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 228+ Def Stunfisk: 153-181 (36.2 - 42.8%) -- 97.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Passimian Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Stunfisk: 168-198 (39.8 - 46.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Passimian Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 228+ Def Stunfisk: 170-202 (40.2 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Passimian U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Stunfisk: 59-70 (13.9 - 16.5%) -- possible 9HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Passimian U-turn vs. 252 HP / 228+ Def Stunfisk: 60-71 (14.2 - 16.8%) -- possible 9HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Heliolisk Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Stunfisk: 172-203 (40.7 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Heliolisk Surf vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Stunfisk: 229-270 (54.2 - 63.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Heliolisk Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Stunfisk: 152-179 (36 - 42.4%) -- 93.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Heliolisk Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Stunfisk: 196-232 (46.4 - 54.9%) -- 11.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Heliolisk Surf vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Stunfisk: 262-310 (62 - 73.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Heliolisk Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Stunfisk: 175-206 (41.4 - 48.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Heliolisk Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Stunfisk: 132-156 (31.2 - 36.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Heliolisk Surf vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Stunfisk: 176-208 (41.7 - 49.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Heliolisk Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Stunfisk: 117-138 (27.7 - 32.7%) -- 75.7% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Braviary Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Stunfisk: 84-99 (19.9 - 23.4%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Braviary Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 228+ Def Stunfisk: 85-101 (20.1 - 23.9%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Braviary Supersonic Skystrike (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Stunfisk: 132-156 (31.2 - 36.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Braviary Supersonic Skystrike (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 228+ Def Stunfisk: 135-159 (31.9 - 37.6%) -- 0.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Braviary Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Stunfisk: 112-132 (26.5 - 31.2%) -- 15.6% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Braviary Superpower vs. 252 HP / 228+ Def Stunfisk: 114-135 (27 - 31.9%) -- 43.8% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Braviary Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Stunfisk: 125-147 (29.6 - 34.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Braviary Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 228+ Def Stunfisk: 127-150 (30 - 35.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Braviary Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Stunfisk: 125-147 (29.6 - 34.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Braviary Supersonic Skystrike (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 228+ Def Stunfisk: 201-237 (47.6 - 56.1%) -- 28.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Braviary Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Stunfisk: 125-147 (29.6 - 34.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Braviary Superpower vs. 252 HP / 228+ Def Stunfisk: 170-201 (40.2 - 47.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Part V: Replays
This is the part that you skeptics will like, I'd explain these replays but I think they're pretty self explanatory. Stunfisk isn't necessarily outstanding in these games, but it certainly has effectiveness to some degree, which I really think is what we're looking for here.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7nu-801531746
This one is a not so great replay, but the point of it is to show that it's not a guaranteed answer to things like Heliolisk, due to coverage, but it did stop it from clicking Volt Switch!
Part VI: Conclusion
So all in all, Stunfisk is a fire mon that literally spewed from me asking Chokepic for a heat mon. Little did I know that young night what would come out of a seemingly irrelevant mon. Thanks to everyone that supports that mon, and use it!!!
-> C-/C
Alright guys, it's about that damn time. If you've been on Pokemon Showdown or Discord at all, then you'd know that I've fallen in love with this Pokemon. I don't think it's super outstanding for the record, which is why I am only nomming it to C-/C, just so there isn't any confusion (in case people claim I think it's the best Utility Tank lol). Anyway, this nomination is kind of going to be a bit in depth, so I'm going to split it into parts to make it easier to read for people on different knowledge levels of Stunfisk. For those who just wanna read the actual nomination stuff skip to Part II.
Part I: What The Hell is a Stunfisk?
So I'm fairly certain at least 15% of you have never heard of a Stunfisk before, but basically it's a Ground- / Electric-type which was introduced in generation 5. With that out of the way, what kind of things does Stunfisk actually offer? Well, Stunfisk is esentially a utility tank which has some nice utility moves. Here are the five moves that you'll generally be running on Stunfisk:
Discharge
Earth Power
Stealth Rock
Toxic
Pain Split
The thing with these moves is that the first three are pretty much mandatory. Why you may want to run Toxic or Pain Split is something we'll talk about a bit later. But as you can see out of these moves, Stunfisk is essentially there to be an annoyance, and this will be talked about more in the next part. What about Stunfisk's bulk? Stunfisk is actually kind of really bulky with 109/84/99 bulk. This means it can easily take hits on both the physical and special side, which as you'll find out is incredibly useful, and is the main reason Stunfisk is good in the first place. With the nitty gritty stuff out of the way, here's the actual nomination:
Part II: How Does Stunfisk Actually Fit Into the Meta?
Now I am sure you skeptics are now wondering, what does Stunfisk even do in this meta? Well for one, the thing that stands out to me the most is the fact that it beats Braviary, which has been on a usage increase for quite some time now. Not only does it have that key resistance to Brave Bird, but it can also eat Superpowers really well, and have a good chance to paralyze with Discharge + Static. It also gives Stunfisk a free opportunity to set up Stealth Rock. Now you could argue things like Roar Steelix and Diancie are just as effective at beating Braviary, but I haven't finished yet.
Another thing that makes Stunfisk a viable option is that it is able to deal with VoltTurn. Now I'm not necessarily talking about the Pokemon themselves, but rather the combination of Volt Switch + U-Turn. The most obvious pair in regards to that is Passimian + Heliolisk. Passimian is the more likely of the two to get a taste of Stunfisk, as every time Passimian clicks U-Turn (which is doing 0 to Stunfisk), there is a 30% chance that it's getting paralyzed, which is bad news for Passimian. What about if it were to click Close Combat? That still runs the same risk of getting paralyzed, and the Stunfisk spread that I've been using actually takes around 40% from CC as you'll see in the calcs. But, then there's Earthquake, which isn't even a contact move, and Stunfisk takes supereffective damage from it. Well, Earthquake is actually not as common as it used to be, and almost everyone is running Gunk Shot as of late to hit things like Comfey and Whimsicott if that ever comes around. ALSO, Earthquake doesn't even 2HKO Stunfisk from full! This means you have a good chance of getting off Paralysis with Discharge, and even getting some health back with Pain Split if you'd like. In terms of Heliolisk, while it certainly isn't taking a Surf from Life Orb and Choice Specs sets, it is pretty much eating every other hit, meaning every time Heliolisk comes in it's pretty much a 50/50, which is usually good for the player who is enforcing it.
Those are pretty much the two things that Stunfisk really stands out at dealing with, although there are definitely others. Pretty much anything with contact attacks have the chance to get paralyzed by this pancake-looking mon. Even Pokemon that don't do as well, thanks to Discharge. Speaking of Discharge, that's one of the things that makes it such an avid Stealth Rock user. While Stealth Rock users do have their own ways to beat Xatu, Stunfisk does too in Discharge, and it is just as effective if not more than some of the non-Rock-type Stealth Rock users such as Steelix, thanks to the chance of paralysis and high damage.
Not to mention, Stunfisk is also just really good at taking physical hits in general. That's pretty much a summary of what Stunfisk does; eat physical hits, while effectively dealing with VoltTurn cores + Braviary. There's really not much to say about it outside of that, and while it doesn't sound too impressive, when you think about it on the grand scale of things, Braviary and VoltTurn are really stupid popular right now, meaning Stunfisk will definitely see a lot of action.
OH and lastly, Pain Split vs Toxic. So, what I like about Pain Split is that while it doesn't give you too much HP since Stunfisk usually has more HP than it's opponents, I've found it comes in clutch to get me out of certain 3HKOs and such. Toxic is probably better to chip down Stunfisk's switch ins, but I've been using Pain Split and I've liked it.
Part III: Example Sets
So there are two sets that I've formulated in the lab, so here those are with some explanations:
So this set is the alternative set, with enough Speed to creep up to Palossand. This is why this set actually recommends Toxic over Pain Split, because if you're out speeding Palossand, you'll probably want to Toxic it rather than do 25ish with Earth Power. If you choose to run Pain Split instead, the spread is still useful in the sense that you can get off a Pain Split before they kill you with Earth Power, meaning you can probably get some health back. Either way, Toxic is still probably better to use here.
Part IV: Calculations
Here are some of the calculations I mentioned above:
252 Atk Passimian Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Stunfisk: 150-177 (35.5 - 41.9%) -- 84.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Passimian Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 228+ Def Stunfisk: 153-181 (36.2 - 42.8%) -- 97.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Passimian Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Stunfisk: 168-198 (39.8 - 46.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Passimian Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 228+ Def Stunfisk: 170-202 (40.2 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Passimian U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Stunfisk: 59-70 (13.9 - 16.5%) -- possible 9HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Passimian U-turn vs. 252 HP / 228+ Def Stunfisk: 60-71 (14.2 - 16.8%) -- possible 9HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Heliolisk Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Stunfisk: 172-203 (40.7 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Heliolisk Surf vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Stunfisk: 229-270 (54.2 - 63.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Heliolisk Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Stunfisk: 152-179 (36 - 42.4%) -- 93.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Heliolisk Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Stunfisk: 196-232 (46.4 - 54.9%) -- 11.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Heliolisk Surf vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Stunfisk: 262-310 (62 - 73.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Heliolisk Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Stunfisk: 175-206 (41.4 - 48.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Heliolisk Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Stunfisk: 132-156 (31.2 - 36.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Heliolisk Surf vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Stunfisk: 176-208 (41.7 - 49.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Heliolisk Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Stunfisk: 117-138 (27.7 - 32.7%) -- 75.7% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Braviary Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Stunfisk: 84-99 (19.9 - 23.4%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Braviary Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 228+ Def Stunfisk: 85-101 (20.1 - 23.9%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Braviary Supersonic Skystrike (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Stunfisk: 132-156 (31.2 - 36.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Braviary Supersonic Skystrike (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 228+ Def Stunfisk: 135-159 (31.9 - 37.6%) -- 0.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Braviary Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Stunfisk: 112-132 (26.5 - 31.2%) -- 15.6% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Braviary Superpower vs. 252 HP / 228+ Def Stunfisk: 114-135 (27 - 31.9%) -- 43.8% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Braviary Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Stunfisk: 125-147 (29.6 - 34.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Braviary Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 228+ Def Stunfisk: 127-150 (30 - 35.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Braviary Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Stunfisk: 125-147 (29.6 - 34.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Braviary Supersonic Skystrike (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 228+ Def Stunfisk: 201-237 (47.6 - 56.1%) -- 28.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Braviary Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Stunfisk: 125-147 (29.6 - 34.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Braviary Superpower vs. 252 HP / 228+ Def Stunfisk: 170-201 (40.2 - 47.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Part V: Replays
This is the part that you skeptics will like, I'd explain these replays but I think they're pretty self explanatory. Stunfisk isn't necessarily outstanding in these games, but it certainly has effectiveness to some degree, which I really think is what we're looking for here.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7nu-801531746
This one is a not so great replay, but the point of it is to show that it's not a guaranteed answer to things like Heliolisk, due to coverage, but it did stop it from clicking Volt Switch!
Part VI: Conclusion
So all in all, Stunfisk is a fire mon that literally spewed from me asking Chokepic for a heat mon. Little did I know that young night what would come out of a seemingly irrelevant mon. Thanks to everyone that supports that mon, and use it!!!
That feeling when you get bopped by a delphox in front of the whole VR community... This is why we bring incineroar. :P
Seriously though, I support Stunfisk going UR -> Ranked (C- or C). Its phys def set is bulky enough to get rocks up against and/or threaten common rocker like Rhydon and Steelix with its ground STAB while making Xatu and defoggers not named rotom think twice about coming in with its electric STAB. It has a niche match-up against Braviary as well the pressure it puts on Volt/turn as Yoshizilla mentioned above which lets it act a something of a counter meta mon.
Outside of its niche match-ups it can usually take one neutral hit from full, but struggles to apply any meaningful offensive pressure without SpA investment. (Not recommended!)
Perhaps its biggest flaw however is its lack on reliable recovery despite its niche as a static spreader and volt/turn answer. It gets worn down too quickly to be a reliable answer throughout the battle. If it can't get its static off on pass/braviary within the first few hits it risks becoming dead weight with no hope of coming back bar wish support.
As one of the few mons to make Passimian think before mindlessly clicking U-turn, Stunfisk has a meaningful role in the NU metagame. Despite its low survivability it allows the builder to cripple and deter opposing passimian and Braviary to allow the rest of the team to put in work without living in fear.
Another big one (because Passimian to S and Alolan Exeggutor from zero to hero clearly isn't enough): Xatu to A+
I didn't know it wasn't A+ to begin with, honestly. Xatu sets the tempo for a lot of the teambuilding we have right now and it is far from a forgotten presence in battle, too. Xatu itself is a pretty ok Pokemon at best, but with Magic Bounce it largely dictates hazard setting and removal, which nothing else individually can say to the same extent or with as much usage as Xatu. The fact of the matter is that while Xatu largely only uses one set, which almost always has Roost + Night Shade and then fits 2 of Toxic, U-turn, Protect, and then the rare Featherdance or second attack, it still takes the ability of the most common Stealth Rock setters to set up Stealth Rocks away (it also pretty much suffocates the Spikes metagame when it comes to Ferroseed, but Accelgor is a different story, I suppose). Considering that it is not entirely passive, thus making it hard to take advantage of aside from Blackglasses Sneasel, and it does a pretty consistent, clear job at controlling hazard play vs a majority of Stealth Rock setters, I think Xatu deserves to be in the conversation among top tier Pokemon and should rise to A+ (it should at LEAST not be A- ffs...).
Another big one (because Passimian to S and Alolan Exeggutor from zero to hero clearly isn't enough): Xatu to A+
I didn't know it wasn't A+ to begin with, honestly. Xatu sets the tempo for a lot of the teambuilding we have right now and it is far from a forgotten presence in battle, too. Xatu itself is a pretty ok Pokemon at best, but with Magic Bounce it largely dictates hazard setting and removal, which nothing else individually can say to the same extent or with as much usage as Xatu. The fact of the matter is that while Xatu largely only uses one set, which almost always has Roost + Night Shade and then fits 2 of Toxic, U-turn, Protect, and then the rare Featherdance or second attack, it still takes the ability of the most common Stealth Rock setters to set up Stealth Rocks away (it also pretty much suffocates the Spikes metagame when it comes to Ferroseed, but Accelgor is a different story, I suppose). Considering that it is not entirely passive, thus making it hard to take advantage of aside from Blackglasses Sneasel, and it does a pretty consistent, clear job at controlling hazard play vs a majority of Stealth Rock setters, I think Xatu deserves to be in the conversation among top tier Pokemon and should rise to A+ (it should at LEAST not be A- ffs...).
Agree and Disagree
I think Xatu is on the borderline between A- and A
On one hand his presence influences how you play like no other mon in the tier
On the other it loses to most rockers
Like
vs Torterra: Win
vs Ferroseed: Win
vs Uxie & Mesprit: Win
vs Garbodor: Win w psychic, Neutral otherwise
vs Steelix: Neutral
vs Rhydon: Lose
vs Palossand: Lose
vs Diancie: Lose
vs Piloswine: Lose
vs Sandslash-Alola: Lose
vs Suicide leads: Lose
vs Accelgor: Lose, even with air slash unless you hit him while he switches in which is very unlikely to happen
vs Druddigon: Win against virgin rough skin players, Countered by the chad mold breaker player (but xatu can't be killed by him)
vs Miltank: the two wall each other
As you can see most hazard setters threathen it on a switch in, even if Palossand aside all of these prediction can be risky if you open with Passimian
I'm fine with A, i don't mind A-, i disagree with A+
Aromatisse B+ ---> C
B+ is way too high. o.o It's a bad comfey who's reliant on trick room, Aroma has almost no relevance with the introduction of Comfey. Trick Room and Nasty Plot mean you have to sacrifice two turns to become threatening and once that's over you pretty much become deadweight with no speed or recovery. It is bulky and Z move hurts so it probably stop it from going straight to unranked.
Sandslash Alola B- ---> C+/C
Not very good as a rocker / spinner and is very situational to switch in on most special attackers in fear of super effective coverage and hidden powers with pretty low bulk. Loses to Xatu to without investment since Icicle crash only does around 50%. It's only guaranteed to switch in on Cryogonal, Vileplume, Whim, Golbat and sometimes Vivi which doesn't seem so amazing for B- since they aren't the biggest threats around.
Scyther B- ---> C+
So many good qualities but they don't pay off in this meta and Scyther hasn't excelled in a long time. The definition of C rank seems to fit Scyther better. It requires so much support and it's assets don't really pay off enough to make me want to use it. You'll always need to keep rocks off the field but then Scyther has numerous problems with Steelix / Diancie / Rotom / Rhydon / Garbodor / Golbat / Toxic / and it's not even that much of a threat to Slowbro either without boosting. There's many better options who offer more to a team without so much team support.
Jellicent C+ ---> D
Defensive Jellicent is really bad and has almost no advantages over Slowbro/Vaporeon 9.5 times out of 10. It's barely a fighting check since it wished it was just a little bulkier but in general it struggles to switch into any relevant targets since they all have the power and coverage to break through. Slowbro and Vapo both can work around Toxic with Regen / Heal bell while Jelli has it the worst. (Almost every offensive mon can beat Jellicent from S to B-) I posted a meme set here which is probably better but even then that doesn't stop it from being bad.
Mesprit C+ ---> C- / unrank
Defensive Mesprit is outclassed by bad Uxie, offensive rocks / specs sets don't really have any thrill factor when there are better offensive psychic types. Bulky Incineroar is a huge thorn, while Slowbro/King, Lix are ever so present. It'll do ok vs most other rockers but I don't think it has a good enough niche.
Uxie C ---> D
Poor Uxie, it's extremely passive and has no hopes of beating Xatu as a Stealth Rocker. It can't make full use of it's excellent bulk with no recovery outside of leftovers which will be knocked off or you'll be taking repeated damage from u-turns. Bland Psychic typing doesn't really bring many useful resistances to take advantage of that high bulk.
Regice C ---> Unrank
You could make it work but you're better off using Articuno or Ice cream for any regard. It's kind of outclassed defensily since Cuno has pressure / recovery / and till has time to bring utility with toxic or heal bell while Ice Cream is a million times or faster and stronger and hidden power is enough to get past most of hits checks. Not much in my eyes sorry. Slowpoke speed too.
Clefairy C- ---> Unrank
Clefairy is a below average wall since most targets like Passimian and Guzzlord have ways to beat it despite battling against a fairy. Unable to beat Xatu with rocks, or it'll turn into a stall war and struggles with most special attackers since they can just pivot, 2HKO or just set up. Not reliable.
Chatot Unrank ---> C+
Good speed tier to get the jump on Magmortar, Ice Cream, Vivi, Medicham and friends but Chatot is an absolute nuke with Specs Boomburst which has no drawbacks and 2HKO's the tier at worst (with coverage) including ghost types. (rip Steelix, AV slowbro and Berry Incineroar) Balance is still the main metagame trend so Chatot has many opportunities to attack and doesn't require too much support since it's not really meant to take attacks unless they're toxic or predicted EQ's. (although it would work great on a pivot team)
-> C-
Shuckle is objectively worse than Smeargle at being useful in the current metagame. With Xatu being literally everywhere Shuckle struggles to do anything useful in a game with Xatu. Sure, you can run Red Card and try to force Xatu out as it uses Night Shade... but they can Toxic stall you. Smeargle on the other hand has Skill Swap to negate Xatu's Magic Bounce (and steal it, making it slightly more annoying lol). It's also got nice tech like Nuzzle and Spore to piss off stuff like Steelix, Rhydon, etc. Shuckle's defensive qualities are cool yeah, but being deadweight against Xatu is just too bad. Webs is already a super niche playstyle, but if we're insistent on ranking it then we should rank the better setter.
-> A
Although it can struggle at times to straight up deny Stealth Rock from Diancie and Rhydon, it's still super effective as a secondary source of entry hazard control and checks Passimian in a pinch.
-> B+?
This isn't a hard nomination, since I'm not sure how I stand in regards to it. Type: Null is a bit better currently with the uptick in usage of Alolan Exeggutor and decreased usage of Focus Blast Heliolisk (most opt for Dark Pulse or Hidden Power Ice to hit Decidueye, Dhelmise, and Torterra). Other Pokemon like Choice Specs Diancie and Guzzlord still exist, and Type: Null can switch into them alright.
Although stuff is going well for it, it still struggles to deal with stuff like Rhydon and Steelix, which can setup alongside it or phaze it out. We've also got several Ghost-types like Rotom, Decidueye, and Dhelmise that can just come in and give no fucks. I'm thinking the RestTalk set with U-turn is probably the best set currently to make as best use of its pivoting capabilities. So yeah, this 'nomination' is more to spark discussion on Type: Null.
-> B-
It's worse than Comfey, but it's far from being as bad as what C-rank implies.
Hi everyone. Just making some comments is all. I might add my owown artwork later.
-> A: Sounds right.
Yeah, it has issues with almost all of the most common Stealth Rockers,but it's defensive utility is unparalleled in NU. Magic Bounce is that good. That and checking Passimian is a big plus.
-> B+: Hell yeah!
My favorite Alolan form is really fun to use and surprisingly effective in this meta. Good bulk and punches holes in teams with no effort. Not quite Guzzlord good, but still a lot of fun.
-> B-: Yeah, it makes sense.
It ain't Comfey, but it doesn't belong in the C ranks either. Being able to set up Trick Room and Nasty Plot against most defensive cores thanks to being immune to Taunt and being able to punch back with a +2 Twinkle Tackle is why Aromatise is where it is. Keep in 8n the B-ranks.
Now for my own nomination I'm a little surprised no one is talking about.
-> B- / C+ (maybe lower?)
When I was writing my analyses on the two worst Pokemon in NU (Ambipom & Hitmontop) I thought this was still somewhat relevant because of my personal bias, but the QC team told me not to mention it because they deemed it unviable. So I tried it out in the current environment.... oh how the mighty have fallen...
Before USUM, Hitmonlee was one of the best Scarfers in the tier thanks to Reckless and High Jump Kick and one of the best all-out offensive 'mons. Nowadays, its roles have been usurped by Passimian and Medicham. Passimian isn't as fast with a Scarf as Hitmonlee, but it is deceptively bulkier and has access to U-turn, which can make a big difference in a game. Medicham is also much more powerful with Huge Power and a better priority move in Bullet Punch and being able to wreck Slowbro with Thunder Punch. Plus now with all these Ghost-types running around like Decidueye, Dhelmise, and Pallosand, it's not a good idea to be spamming High Jump Kicks like it once did. It's now much more of a liability.
The only kind of good set nowadays is probably the Curse set with White Herb and Unburden. It's a neat set combining Bulk Up and essentially Agility, but it has problems too. Comfey is now in this tier and ruins its chances of ever setting up. Plus, this set has serious 4MSS. There's not enough room to cover every threat it wants to cover. It needs HJK, but also needs room for Stone Edge for Braviary, Knock Off for Slowbro and Pallosand, Poison Jab for Fairies (Comfey), and maybe Blaze Kick for Whimsicott and Vileplume.
So yeah, Hitmonlee has good attributes but it's hard to justify using it nowadays since it's outclassed and has difficulty setting up as a sweeper. It should probably drop a subrank or two to reflect the current metagame, but I don't know if I could call it a D-ranked Pokemon. It's just not as good as it used to be.
Maybe there's something else I'm missing. What does everyone else think?
I know I’m still quite new to this tier, but I’d like to agree on the Xatu to Anomination. Before I actually started playing NU, I’ve always watched some tournament replays and Xatu was surprisingly in quite a lot of them, which made me quickly realize how important it is to several NU teams. The hazard control provided by Magic Bounce is astounding, and to have that on such a reliable defensive pivot is truly outstanding. I’m not saying Xatu doesn’t have flaws or anything similar, but it’s clear to see how and why it is such a huge part of the NU metagame. For reference, after the last snake game of phase two finishing today, we can see Xatu is the most used Pokémon on the entire tournament thus far, even edging out top tier threats in Incineroar and Passimian. I’m not saying usage is directly equal to viability because that’s obviously not the case, but it definitely has somewhat of a correlation. Xatu’s role on NU teams is so instrumental as a form of hazard control, that I believe it earns itself the title of an A rank Pokémon. For reference, here are the usage stats of Xatu by the way:
While most of my differences in opinions stand in different standards and more focus on usage there is one thing i cannot get behind: Rhydon and Palossand
Finch, i know you tried to explain me why but i don't get it at all, so here's my 2 cents
The two set stealth rocks: ok, then?
Rhydon is better offensively, it's the best sd incineroar check in the tier and a great check for it in general; it also checks flying types like braviary and golbat (although both check xatu)
Rhydon's problems are:
1 being stuck to eviolite
2 having no ability
3 having no recovery
4 having 2 4 times weaknesses
I'm sorry but for a mon that usually runs swords dance that's terrible, it's forced to switch out at the sight of a grass or water type
Megahorn is good for getting switches in but even then, pure waters and 5 grass types/8 are neutral to it
Now palossand
It's a ghost type, and ghost types are amazing in this tier
It's the biggest wall to passimian
It has recovery
And contrary to popular belief it's also a good incineroar check with groundium z, taking like 45% from knock off and 0hkoing non assult vest roars and 0hkoing assault vest roars after rock damage
It's biggest problem is getting walled by certain mons like braviary, rotom, switched out by vanilluxe and it's complete counter in sneasel
I honestly think rhydon could go to B+ but A- is fine
I think Palossand should go back to A- imo he's way better than Rhydon
Thanks for your time
While most of my differences in opinions stand in different standards and more focus on usage there is one thing i cannot get behind: Rhydon and Palossand
Finch, i know you tried to explain me why but i don't get it at all, so here's my 2 cents
The two set stealth rocks: ok, then?
Rhydon is better offensively, it's the best sd incineroar check in the tier and a great check for it in general; it also checks flying types like braviary and golbat (although both check xatu)
Rhydon's problems are:
1 being stuck to eviolite
2 having no ability
3 having no recovery
4 having 2 4 times weaknesses
I'm sorry but for a mon that usually runs swords dance that's terrible, it's forced to switch out at the sight of a grass or water type
Megahorn is good for getting switches in but even then, pure waters and 5 grass types/8 are neutral to it
Now palossand
It's a ghost type, and ghost types are amazing in this tier
It's the biggest wall to passimian
It has recovery
And contrary to popular belief it's also a good incineroar check with groundium z, taking like 45% from knock off and 0hkoing non assult vest roars and 0hkoing assault vest roars after rock damage
It's biggest problem is getting walled by certain mons like braviary, rotom, switched out by vanilluxe and it's complete counter in sneasel
I honestly think rhydon could go to B+ but A- is fine
I think Palossand should go back to A- imo he's way better than Rhydon
Thanks for your time
Someone else probably can explain this better, but here are my two cents regarding your two cents.
The main reason for Rhydon is A- and Palossand is lower (I don't know the rank) is mainly due to presence. Rhydon has more offensive presence due to the ability to SD and threaten out stuff like Xatu, Golbat and Braviary, while Palossand, although with a decent 100 SpAtk stat, doesn't really scare much out bar Xatu and Steelix since it rarely invests in SpAtk and more in Def. Eviolite allows Rhydon to forgo defensive investment and allows it to be a pretty good bird check (+1 Superpower from Braviary can't OHKO defensive variants).
Additionally, Rock typing, while leaving it weak to Grass, Water and Fighting which are all common in the tier, gives it a very useful Fire resistance, allowing it to check the popular Incineroar. Palossand never switches in on Incineroar unless Colbur or Groundium (I've never seen this though, looks cool) and Incineroar runs Knock Off. Darkest Lariat will 2HKO Palo without Z Crystal. Unless you run Groundium and invest in SpAtk, Incineroar also sets up SDs on you and can proceed to OHKO you after their pinch berry is popped.
I've got nothing against a Rhydon drop, but the main issue in Palossand is that its passive. If you don't invest in defense, you lose to stuff like Passimian and Incineroar easily. Palo also struggles with 4MSS, since it wants all of Stealth Rock, Shore Up, Toxic, Shadow Ball and Earth Power on the same set. No Toxic mean it lets in Braviary for free, no Earth Power means Steelix and other rockers switch in easily, no Shadow Ball invites Xatu etc. Unless Palossand isn't your main rocker, this is a problem. And you wouldn't usually run Palossand if you didn't need a rocker since its typing compounds weaknesses with other rockers.
While most of my differences in opinions stand in different standards and more focus on usage there is one thing i cannot get behind: Rhydon and Palossand
Finch, i know you tried to explain me why but i don't get it at all, so here's my 2 cents
The two set stealth rocks: ok, then?
Rhydon is better offensively, it's the best sd incineroar check in the tier and a great check for it in general; it also checks flying types like braviary and golbat (although both check xatu)
Rhydon's problems are:
1 being stuck to eviolite
2 having no ability
3 having no recovery
4 having 2 4 times weaknesses
I'm sorry but for a mon that usually runs swords dance that's terrible, it's forced to switch out at the sight of a grass or water type
Megahorn is good for getting switches in but even then, pure waters and 5 grass types/8 are neutral to it
Now palossand
It's a ghost type, and ghost types are amazing in this tier
It's the biggest wall to passimian
It has recovery
And contrary to popular belief it's also a good incineroar check with groundium z, taking like 45% from knock off and 0hkoing non assult vest roars and 0hkoing assault vest roars after rock damage
It's biggest problem is getting walled by certain mons like braviary, rotom, switched out by vanilluxe and it's complete counter in sneasel
I honestly think rhydon could go to B+ but A- is fine
I think Palossand should go back to A- imo he's way better than Rhydon
Thanks for your time
To respond to your post, I am going to present you with a comparison that takes an extreme of your ideas:
Why is Incineroar even S-ranked? It can't switch into either of the most common Psychic-types in the tier; it loses to the most common Choice Scarf user in the tier; and it loses to most of the common Stealth Rock users the tier has. Plus, it's super weak to entry hazards. I think it'd fit much better in B+, along with Magmortar and just a bit above Delphox.
Hell, let's keep going. I'm nominating Accelgor to A+-rank. It's too fast (faster than Choice Scarf Passimian); it has no good checks because of its coverage; and it is literally NU's Ash-Greninja, since it can set up Spikes as the opponent switches, desperately looking for their switch-in.
This is how your post reads right now. You're looking at each of these Pokemon in a vacuum; you aren't thinking much about how the metagame actually works, but rather are relying on very basic attributes of the Pokemon to deem them viable or not. Rhydon is infinitely better than Palossand thanks to it checking two of the most prominent wallbreakers in the tier in Incineroar and Braviary while also being able to set Stealth Rock up against Xatu, which is the most common form of entry hazard control currently. If you want me to go further, Rhydon can set Rocks against essentially any form of removal not named Blastoise!
Palossand on the other hand doesn't have enough positives to outweigh its negatives. Sure it checks the plethora of Fighting-types in the tier really reliably and has great sustain; however, it's really passive and thus punished by inviting in wallbreakers like Vanilluxe and Guzzlord, it doesn't check much reliably outside of Fighting-types and Heliolisk sort of, and it is literal setup fodder for Braviary unless you're running the very uncommon Toxic.
When making nominations in the future, I implore you to take into account more than just the "on-paper" side of it; look into their performance in the current metagame, what the Pokemon do, and why they are good at it.
E: wow as I reread this it sounds a lot harsher than intended; my apologies for that o.o
Heliolisk has seen a slight influx in both usage and worth on teams as of late, with more people realising the severe lack of solid Electric resistances and immunities, especially when coupled with the amazing coverage Heliolisk has, such as Surf, Grass Knot, and Hidden Power Ice, all nailing common Electric checks like Steelix, Rhydon, and most notably, Torterrra. Heliolisk's coverage is one of the largest selling points to it, generally allowing it to eliminate these Ground-types early game by playing aggressive and then click Volt Switch later on without any drawbacks.
b -> b+
Likewise with Heliolisk, Torterra has became a lot more popular recently due to it being one of the most reliable Heliolisk checks, also checking many other nuisances like Comfey, Diancie, and bulky Water-types like Slowbro and Vaporeon with its respectable bulk alongside a good Attack stat. Torterra also holds some diversity to it, with Swords Dance variants being perfectly usable and catching many unprepared teams off guard with Rockium Z in tandem with Stone Edge, breaking past Xatu, Golbat, Vikavolt and any other unexpectant Flying or Rock-weak Pokemon.
b -> b+
Delphox in my opinion is vastly overlook right now. Choice Scarf, Calm Mind, and SubTox sets are all pretty good depending on the role the team needs to be filled. Being an extremely reliable Fairy check for the likes of Comfey and Whimsicott as well as being able to check pessimistic mons like Vanilluxe, Vikavolt, and Sceptile. Delphox also holds a really big sense of unpredictability in game; making it hard to tell which mon is the best answer to go to, Calm Mind muscles past the likes of Slowbro and Guzzlord with its boosted Special Attack and valuable coverage, SubTox can be incredibly annoying to face, being a reliable glue to Pokemon mentioned previously and cripple common counterplay like Incineroar and Slowbro, whereas Choice Scarf has the potential to steamroll though unprepared teams if teammates can successfully hinder its checks - and even then, Pokemon like Incineroar simply isn't able to switch into it continuously with Stealth Rock damage and Delphox's damage output. I personally believe Delphox could be placed higher at around a- or so, but b+ would be a more accurate placing to me.
a -> b+ / b
Hariyama is honestly in such a fickle place right now. Assault Vest sets are worn down ridiculously fast without any form of recovery and in many games Hariyama finds itself rather useless in a lot of games, being pressured too much by the Pokemon it should check without recovery and stuff like Slowbro being everywhere. People seem to rave about Protect + Toxic sets, which I do understand the motive behind the set, however, even with Leftovers, without the boost from Assault Vest and no priority or coverage at all outside of Knock Off, the set still seems vastly lacklustre to me. Overall, Hariyama is a bad Incineroar check, being easily picked off with minimal chip by Swords Dance sets, and despise taking Knock Offs as well as potential Will-O-Wisp. The best set for this mon is Z-Belly Drum lol
a -> a-
Decidueye fell off real hard as of late, only being used once the whole of phase 2 and only twice in phase 1, compared to the major hype it was getting a while back. Swords Dance sets are really not worth your time at all anymore to me at least, bulky pivot sets and specially offensive sets are far superior from my experience. The issue with Swords Dance variants is its lack of real setup opportunities, and really being stuck move wise, you want two reliable stabs, then roost, but you always want priority, and coverage, and if you give up roost then your a horrid check to everything and really lose any defensive value you had before. Some may argue that Decid could drop lower, but a- is a fine placing for it now, and even though I do like Special sets and bulky sets better, I still think they are rather average and good at best.
This is the set I use, U-turn out against stuff like Golbat and Brav to bring in danger like Heliolisk, Vani or Diancie.
Also, I believe Aromatisse is fine in b+, people underestimate the amount of ample setup opportunities you get with the sheer volume in usage of Scarf Passimian and Berry Roar, and it's super hard to stop even with no boosts under Trick Room, +2 just makes it menacing.
Malamar: B- -> C
This thing is slow
It takes way too long to get the ball rolling when it can be easily 1hko'd by U-Turn
And you know who runs U-Turn?
Non-SD Incineroar
Passimian
Most Xatus
Scatf Braviary
Most Whimsicotts (Although Moonblasting it is probably better)
It also autoloses to Comfey
Superpower isn't even a Stab move, yet it's his main attacking move
But why use a Malamar for fighting when you could be playing Hariyama instead?
Or heck, Curselee
Or Passimian or medicham, although they don't have the same role
I loved this thing in XY but nowadays it's just trash
Mismagius: B- -> C+
This thing's supposed to be a setup sweeper, but boy is this thing fragile
Mismagius dies immediately to any supereffective move, barely lives from a colbured knock off and it gets to the red zone against any neutral physical attack
Also its speed tier is terrible, at 105
That means it gets outsped by literally every single fast mon in the tier: Heliolisk, Sneasel, Whimsicott, Sceptile, Scarfers, Accelgor
It also has no defensive utility as you can't really switch it in, at most you can taunt a stealth rock but that's the extent of it's defensive/support capabilities
The only good thing is that it's fourth move is rather unpredictable but that means there are only 3 really good moves for it
Aerodactyl: C+ -> B-/B
As you saw from Snake usage, this thing really isn't that bad
It's main strenght is his unpredictability: with a large amount of sets you can never prepare too well for it
First off we got the main set, Choice band
The main kicker is how good of an Incineroar matchup it has: It's only affected by knock off, it can 0hko it and even when it can't it can still bring it to red zone while avoiding the berry thanks to unnerve
Then we have the suicide lead set
That's not really great because of how easy to remove entry hazards are but that's a good niche if you wanna build an hyper offensive team
Finally we have the PP stall set
It's a bird with pressure
Articuno can probably do a better job but still
There's also his speed
With an impressive 130 this thing outspeeds any non scarfer, aside from accelgor obviously, and that puts some pressure (pun completely intended) on fast frail mons
While not amazing i'd still say it deserves more than C+
Also yes to Aromatisse drop, no to Heliolisk rise and absolutely no to Heliolisk suspect, at least not until next months drops Seismitoad back here
Malamar: B- -> C
This thing is slow
It takes way too long to get the ball rolling when it can be easily 1hko'd by U-Turn
And you know who runs U-Turn?
Non-SD Incineroar
Passimian
Most Xatus
Scatf Braviary
Most Whimsicotts (Although Moonblasting it is probably better)
It also autoloses to Comfey
Superpower isn't even a Stab move, yet it's his main attacking move
But why use a Malamar for fighting when you could be playing Hariyama instead?
Or heck, Curselee
Or Passimian or medicham, although they don't have the same role
I loved this thing in XY but nowadays it's just trash
Mismagius: B- -> C+
This thing's supposed to be a setup sweeper, but boy is this thing fragile
Mismagius dies immediately to any supereffective move, barely lives from a colbured knock off and it gets to the red zone against any neutral physical attack
Also its speed tier is terrible, at 105
That means it gets outsped by literally every single fast mon in the tier: Heliolisk, Sneasel, Whimsicott, Sceptile, Scarfers, Accelgor
It also has no defensive utility as you can't really switch it in, at most you can taunt a stealth rock but that's the extent of it's defensive/support capabilities
The only good thing is that it's fourth move is rather unpredictable but that means there are only 3 really good moves for it
Aerodactyl: C+ -> B-/B
As you saw from Snake usage, this thing really isn't that bad
It's main strenght is his unpredictability: with a large amount of sets you can never prepare too well for it
First off we got the main set, Choice band
The main kicker is how good of an Incineroar matchup it has: It's only affected by knock off, it can 0hko it and even when it can't it can still bring it to red zone while avoiding the berry thanks to unnerve
Then we have the suicide lead set
That's not really great because of how easy to remove entry hazards are but that's a good niche if you wanna build an hyper offensive team
Finally we have the PP stall set
It's a bird with pressure
Articuno can probably do a better job but still
There's also his speed
With an impressive 130 this thing outspeeds any non scarfer, aside from accelgor obviously, and that puts some pressure (pun completely intended) on fast frail mons
While not amazing i'd still say it deserves more than C+
Also yes to Aromatisse drop, no to Heliolisk rise and absolutely no to Heliolisk suspect, at least not until next months drops Seismitoad back here
You could make all these arguments about these Pokemon but we already know everything you've said about these Pokemon. I think one of the things that you struggle with particularly in posting is that you fail to think about the meta itself. Consider asking yourself these questions: do I know everything about this Pokemon? Is this Pokemon's role useful in this meta? How much is this Pokemon's utility valued right now?
These are only examples, but next time I'd consider thinking about how a Pokemon fits into a meta and how the meta has changed for it before posting in the VR, as it is the key to success.
Vivillon is really pretty. It's also terrifying to manage an endgame vs Vivillon considering the options it can use to get past its checks and counters (sleep powder, quiver dance, substitute, with leftovers and hurricane confusions thrown in for good measure). Vivillon is held back by its Stealth Rock weakness, but defog is plentiful and Xatu usage is high. There is no shortage of flying resists in the tier, but even the likes of Rhydon, Silvally-Steel, and Diancie can be made vulnerable to a late-game Vivillon sweep simply trying to perform their roles of Stealth Rocker, Defogger, and Pivot/Tank. Despite its flaws, Vivillon consistently finds success against common team archetypes in this metagame and you can never really count it out against even the most prepared build. Vivillon's potency is surely enough to give it a spot in A.
-> A- Espeonage. said this should probably drop to A-, and I couldn't agree more. This thing has been on the decline since forever pretty much (all the way since Emboar was banned). One of the things that has changed the most for it is its viability as a Defogger. Clearly, it's not working out too hot for it since it is forced to run something other than Defog in its last slot, and there are much better options for Defog. It also hates the presence of Braviary because of Defog as well. While you could argue that the decreased usage in Sneasel has been good for Whimsicott, the increased usage in Incineroar, Delphox, and Magmortar has troubled Whimsicott greatly. However, that isn't to say that Whimsicott is bad or anything, it can still form some cool cores with setup sweepers and Passimian. With that being said, Whimsicott to A-.
-> A-
This is another Pokemon that has been on the decline; with the usage of Steelix gradually increasing, it is hard for Klinklang to get an efficient sweep. Not to mention, it needs Passimian weakened in order to clean through the team with one boost, as Passimian eats a +1 Gear Grind from full, while OHKOing with Close Combat in return. It also does not like Iapapa Incineroar, which has become the most common set over Swords Dance, because of its bulk + Fire Blast, Will'o'Wisp, and Earthquake. The addition of Quagsire has also troubled Klinklang, although it is uncommon. Choice Scarf Heliolisk is also a good Klinklang check. In summary, there's just too many things going against Klinklang in this meta for it to be an effective sweeper, so drop it to A-.
-> A-
I feel like this thing is super overrated; while it was great at first, it has proven itself to be unworthy of its current status on the VR. For one, it really has a hard time pulling off a Swords Dance set, especially when Pokemon like Incineroar, Passimian, Heliolisk, Braviary, and (Timid) Vanilluxe are common. Therefore, this leaves Decidueye's Defog sets to give it some usage, which are admittedly decent, but again, due to the slow speed, it can be kind of hard for it to do its job effectively. It suffers from 4MSS, wanting to run Energy Ball / Grass Knot, U-Turn, Roost, Defog, and Shadow Ball all in one set, which can make things difficult for the Decidueye user. Additionally, Vileplume has seen an increase in usage as well, meaning Decidueye is forced into clicking U-Turn. In conclusion, Decidueye has just fallen off the map a bit due to the increased usage of some already common Pokemon, as well as its slow speed.
-> A- Espeonage. said this should probably drop to A-, and I couldn't agree more. This thing has been on the decline since forever pretty much (all the way since Emboar was banned). One of the things that has changed the most for it is its viability as a Defogger. Clearly, it's not working out too hot for it since it is forced to run something other than Defog in its last slot, and there are much better options for Defog. It also hates the presence of Braviary because of Defog as well. While you could argue that the decreased usage in Sneasel has been good for Whimsicott, the increased usage in Incineroar, Delphox, and Magmortar has troubled Whimsicott greatly. However, that isn't to say that Whimsicott is bad or anything, it can still form some cool cores with setup sweepers and Passimian. With that being said, Whimsicott to A-.
-> A-
This is another Pokemon that has been on the decline; with the usage of Steelix gradually increasing, it is hard for Klinklang to get an efficient sweep. Not to mention, it needs Passimian weakened in order to clean through the team with one boost, as Passimian eats a +1 Gear Grind from full, while OHKOing with Close Combat in return. It also does not like Iapapa Incineroar, which has become the most common set over Swords Dance, because of its bulk + Fire Blast, Will'o'Wisp, and Earthquake. The addition of Quagsire has also troubled Klinklang, although it is uncommon. Choice Scarf Heliolisk is also a good Klinklang check. In summary, there's just too many things going against Klinklang in this meta for it to be an effective sweeper, so drop it to A-.
-> A-
I feel like this thing is super overrated; while it was great at first, it has proven itself to be unworthy of its current status on the VR. For one, it really has a hard time pulling off a Swords Dance set, especially when Pokemon like Incineroar, Passimian, Heliolisk, Braviary, and (Timid) Vanilluxe are common. Therefore, this leaves Decidueye's Defog sets to give it some usage, which are admittedly decent, but again, due to the slow speed, it can be kind of hard for it to do its job effectively. It suffers from 4MSS, wanting to run Energy Ball / Grass Knot, U-Turn, Roost, Defog, and Shadow Ball all in one set, which can make things difficult for the Decidueye user. Additionally, Vileplume has seen an increase in usage as well, meaning Decidueye is forced into clicking U-Turn. In conclusion, Decidueye has just fallen off the map a bit due to the increased usage of some already common Pokemon, as well as its slow speed.
hi I am here to provide a dissenting opinion on Whimsicott and Decidueye :]
I feel you focus really heavily on Defog in your post when it's only one part of Whimsicott's kit. Whimsicott not only can provide Defog support (which isn't any worse with Braviary's popularity imo), but it also has useful defensive utility thanks to its Fairy typing, and it gets to pivot with U-turn, two huge perks over Sceptile. I also think you overestimate the rise in popularity of Delphox and Magmortar and its effect on Whimsicott; you usually just U-turn on these Pokemon anyhow and due to their weakness to Stealth Rock, they get chipped down pretty quickly.
Decidueye is underrated if anything because of Incineroar's prevalence and people believing that makes it a lot worse than it actually is. You list Heliolisk and Passimian as Pokemon that give Decidueye issues, but Dark Pulse Heliolisk isn't that great, and Decidueye actually uses Passimian as setup fodder as long as it isn't locked into Knock Off (or Gunk fwiw). While Vileplume has been seeing more usage, that's good for Decidueye if anything because of Vileplume more frequently going specially defensive, making it easier for Swords Dance sets to bop it. And sure, Incineroar and Braviary (and guzz i guess) hurt SD Decidueye a bit, but U-turn is a great 4th move that lets Decidueye SD and get on out against Incineroar, Guzzlord, and slow Braviary, meaning there really is little opportunity cost with setting up whenever. Decidueye's also arguably the second best form of entry hazard removal in the tier rn right behind Rotom; it threatens literally every setter with so much ease it's hilarious, and it has actual sustain too!! Again I feel you focus a bit too heavily on just one facet of the Pokemon in your nomination (although less so than with Whimsicott), and that causes your post to miss on a lot of important information. But ya, Decidueye still great and if anything underrated. Rise in Fire-types sucks ofc for it, but considering they only threaten to revenge kill you, I'd say it isn't all too rough.
Vileplume B+ to A-
Vileplume has seen an increase in usage lately, and for good reason. Passimian is everywhere and Vileplume is one of the few mons that makes it hesitant to click U-Turn. Stuff like Comfey and Dhelmise have really increased in usage lately, and Vileplume does well versus those as well.
Something else in Plume’s favor rn is the SpDef set that’s starting to see usage. It can take on a different set of top-tier mons, such as Heliolisk (can’t stop volt switch however), Diancie, and just cockblocks Sceptile. Plus, either set can take advantage of the toxic/night shade xatu set that’s become super popular lately, making Vileplume annoying to pivot around, as it can put something to sleep easily, and what it can’t sleep, it can hit hard with sludge bomb. Vileplume is in a really good place right now and should move up to A-.
Heliolisk is a broken mon, and probably the major offensive threat right now. Banks said it all, Heliolisk has the coverage for eliminate his checks and click Volt Switch without dropbacks, also the Vaporeon and Xatu rises makes play 50/50 stupids, because they usually run protect, but i can go Lix, Torterra and my opp go Incineroar and probably kill, and more similar scenarios with others mons. Is not hard to support and is a huge offensive threat, deserves a rise like a offensive threat very easy to support.
A- to A/A+ = Agree
Xatu is simply so low for his metagame presence, provides hazard control, momentum, pivot and more things, with success in tournaments he deserves the rise.
I hope I'm not too redundant but Heliolisk for S
I had several changes of mind on the guy, from a worst Rotom to a best Rotom to, IMO, the Heatran of NU, AKA The actual best mon in the tier (until tier shifts at least)
Now let me explain in depth
Specs Heliolisk is the most high-risk, high-reward mon in the tier, and the better you get with him the less risk you get
I originally thought having it on the same tier as Passimian was dumb, seeing as Passimian could U-Turn against literally anything not named Comfey or Vileplume
I then realized one thing
U-turn does shit damage: It's momentum swing is huge but the damage is shit
Heliolisk's specs Volt Switch, however, does a fuckton of damage, doing 70% on any specially tanky water not named Slowking (who only takes 50) and 0hkoing all other supers like physical Slowbro or Xatu
Then we get to Surf: 0hko Rhydon, 2hko Steelix cause sturdy, 0hko Palossand after stealth rocks, and no Diancie or Incineroar set can switch into it's surf, although they both win if brought into it
Whenever you don't know what to do you can always pop off your handy dandy Hyper Voice, amazing for cleaning and revenge killing
Finally that 4th slot
Thunderbolt can be used for some 0hkos Volt Switch can't reach, like Bulk Up Braviary, Vaporeon and AV Slowbro (all after rocks), or physical Blastoise and Golbat
Dark Pulse can be used to avoid getting walled against the grass/ghosts
Focus Blast can be used for winning the Berry Incineroar matchup 1v1 (if you don't miss), or doing a decent chunk off Steelvally
HP Ice: To bait the only "true" check it has: specially defensive Torterra
Grass Knot: underrated move for now, but wait till Seismitoad and Gastrodon come back, which will completely wall him without it, and then you tell me; it also is a compromise between the damage of Choice Specs and the handle bars of Life Orb, to avoid
I don't think he's suspect worthy because:
1 Gastrodon and Seismitoad are about to drop, and I might change my mind on this whole thing
2 It's extremely skill-based
3 ZU players want it banned to make Torterra drop, so it wouldn't be a fair trial, it'd be like russian meddling, only it'd be real
Sceptile should get a rise IMO. It has a fantastic speed tier (notably outspeeding that heliolisk that everyone seems to hate). It can really capitalize on some builds such as Rodri's in snake where RW pretty much 6-0ed him with it. I think physical is weak as shit and probably not the call where incineroar can just intimidate him easily, but special is pretty powerful and has some versatile options. The addition of seismitoad only helps its case. I guess it's been caught onto to an extent but I still feel like it should rise up a subrank or 2
Sceptile should get a rise IMO. It has a fantastic speed tier (notably outspeeding that heliolisk that everyone seems to hate). It can really capitalize on some builds such as Rodri's in snake where RW pretty much 6-0ed him with it. I think physical is weak as shit and probably not the call where incineroar can just intimidate him easily, but special is pretty powerful and has some versatile options. The addition of seismitoad only helps its case. I guess it's been caught onto to an extent but I still feel like it should rise up a subrank or 2
I’m fine with Sceptile rising to A, but definitely not higher. My issue with Sceptile mainly lies in its complete lack of defensive utility; while it can certainly switch into weak uses of Scald from the likes of Vaporeon, Seismitoad, and friends, and occasionally into Earthquake from Rhydon, that’s about it. Hence Sceptile faces immense competition from other Grass-type wallbreakers like Decidueye, Dhelmise, and Whimsicott, all of which have defensive utility that assists them in getting onto the field and have comparable wallbreaking capabilities (or U-turn in Whimsi’s case). I think Sceptile is largely slept-on currently, but A+ would be overselling it in my opinion.
I’m fine with Sceptile rising to A, but definitely not higher. My issue with Sceptile mainly lies in its complete lack of defensive utility; while it can certainly switch into weak uses of Scald from the likes of Vaporeon, Seismitoad, and friends, and occasionally into Earthquake from Rhydon, that’s about it. Hence Sceptile faces immense competition from other Grass-type wallbreakers like Decidueye, Dhelmise, and Whimsicott, all of which have defensive utility that assists them in getting onto the field and have comparable wallbreaking capabilities (or U-turn in Whimsi’s case). I think Sceptile is largely slept-on currently, but A+ would be overselling it in my opinion.
With this argument in mind, shouldn't Vanilluxe drop down to A as well? Vanilluxe has arguably worse defensive utility than Sceptile due to it's Stealth Rock weakness, but it's immense wallbreaking prowess has kept it in A+ (and I'm pretty sure it was S, too). Sorry I don't have much to add, but this argument stuck out a bit to me.
Also, Decidueye should drop. This thing's usage literally halved since August so if that isn't telling you how far out of favor it's fallen, I don't really know what does. The Defensive set is good but I think it's flaws are too frequently exploited to justify it staying A.
