Thats why u play original persona 3 and persona 2 and the og SMTs instead. also because theyre good games unlike the new ones LOL
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Unpopular opinions
- Thread starter antemortem
- Start date
maybe unpopular, but i don't get complaining BDSP didn't have a battle frontier when that concept was DEAD after gen 4. it's not in gen 5, it's not in gen 6 (including ORAS), it's not in gen 7. of all the platinum things to return, it was the least realistic to expect. 
I have the opposite perspective: a lack of BDSP frontier would be fine if there was another modern Frontier instead. However, with everything being left behind, a remake held the best chances to get something of the sort. Which, to be fair, the BDSP Tower is still better than what SV offered.maybe unpopular, but i don't get complaining BDSP didn't have a battle frontier when that concept was DEAD after gen 4. it's not in gen 5, it's not in gen 6 (including ORAS), it's not in gen 7. of all the platinum things to return, it was the least realistic to expect.
i get this perspective, but considering the reason they didn't add it to ORAS to begin with (masuda felt the concept was very unpopular), i think it just wasn't going to return in any fashion. i don't think this is on ilca being "too faithful" as many fans have put it, it's on gamefreak themselves.
It would be one thing to still expect a proper Frontier after ORAS, but I don't blame anyone for wanting a remake to hit at least the same marks set by a ~15 year old iteration of the exact same games.maybe unpopular, but i don't get complaining BDSP didn't have a battle frontier when that concept was DEAD after gen 4. it's not in gen 5, it's not in gen 6 (including ORAS), it's not in gen 7. of all the platinum things to return, it was the least realistic to expect.
For my money, the BDSP Tower was Good Enough.
If the Frontier ever returns, it will be as DLC.maybe unpopular, but i don't get complaining BDSP didn't have a battle frontier when that concept was DEAD after gen 4. it's not in gen 5, it's not in gen 6 (including ORAS), it's not in gen 7. of all the platinum things to return, it was the least realistic to expect.
I said it back when BDSP was announced, historically, it's been on 3rd versions because of the extra dev time. The only exception was in HGSS, where they straight up just ported Plat's and called it a day.
So basically, I don't really see this fanbase actually putting their money where their mouth is and forking over some cash to get washed at the Frontier again.
BDSP's Tower at least sounds reasonably good enough from what I hear tho.
There were a lot of reasons to complain about that game, but the Frontier was definitely not one of them.
So, I'm not entirely sure where to put this, but this thread has evolved into a sort of "anything goes general discussion thread" of the subforum over the years. I guess that's just a way to say that we like to nitpick on everything about this franchise, to the point where "this surely must be unpopular, but I think that ..." is one of the most common sentiments a Pokémon fan can have.
So, anyway, the secondary types of fully evolved starter Pokémon. Recently, it's something I've given almost as much consideration as three-stage evolutions or the unfair treatment of Ice-types. I think it's fair to say that we're seeing a bit of repetition in this respect. After Gen IV, which is 18 years ago this year, we've really just seen five of the 15 possible types added to starter Pokémon as secondary typings (OK, if you want to be overly technical, it's 8 out of 18, because the game treats mono-type Pokémon as dual-type Pokémon where the primary and secondary types are the same). But recently, it's been a cavalcade of repetition between Fighting, Dark, Ghost, Psychic, and Fairy, with the occasional starter without a secondary type at all.
One explanation is that Game Freak consider these types "extra cool" and want to use them to give the starters a little bit of extra marketability. But I think a secondary factor also plays in: they want to preserve a rock-paper-scissors relationship between the fully evolved starters. In addition to the usual Fire-Water-Grass triangle, these five types create many possible combinations for other triangles. Fighting-Dark-Ghost is the most obvious one (Hisui, Gen IX), but there have been variants: Fighting-Dark-Psychic (Gen VI), and Ghost-Dark-Fairy (Gen VII). And of course the ever-so-popular nothing-nothing-Fighting of Gen V. Or nothing-nothing-nothing, as was the case in Gen VIII.
The problem is that there are only so many ways to apply five types to three Pokémon, while preserving a triangle, without making a lot of repeats. We've already seen Fire/Ghost used twice in a row, Fighting and Dark have been paired with every type already, Psychic can't fit in a triangle with both Fighting and Ghost or Dark and Ghost, nor can Fairy work with both Dark and Fighting. And if you use Ghost at all, you have to put Dark in there to give it a disadvantage, which locks the third member to Fighting or Fairy so a triangle can be completed.
But wait, why are they sticking to only those five types, again? That, I think is because, not only are those five types extra cool and work easily in triangles, but they have no type chart interactions with Grass, Fire, or Water. They don't interrupt the "sacred balance" of the original rock-paper-scissors typing triangle no matter how you apply them. There's the little exception that Fire resists Fairy, but it's a minor interaction while the other types have none at all (it does mean that whichever 'mon in the secondary triangle is supposed to have an advantage over the secondary type of the Fire starter can't be Fairy, though).
There are some unused combinations that remain, so that Game Freak can continue to use these five types without repeating types too many times. We're only one step away from having used Fire/Ghost as many times as Fire/Fighting. Water/Ghost and Fire/Fairy are still unused combinations for starter Pokémon, although it locks the third type to repeat Meowscarada's Grass/Dark. But what if I told you there was another way?
That's the key part I think I can pass for "Unpopular" enough to be relevant in this thread: the secondary starter type triangle can be balanced in neutrality. Instead of the starters having relative advantages over each other, outside the Fire/Water/Grass triangle, they can be neutral. While preserving Fire/Water/Grass. It's just a bit difficult. Because there's a reason why these five types are Game Freak's go-to types for starters. They don't mess with the FWG triangle, and few other types do that. Either, they give the starters undue resistance/weaknesses to each other's types, or make the triangle unbalanced so that one is clearly "the strong one", or worse, "the weak one".
But I think there are options still. Flying/Normal/Psychic, for instance. The only caveat is that the Grass starter would have to get the Flying type (flying creates an advantage vs. Grass, but neutrality towards the two other). That way, neither starter has relative advantages or disadvantages, and the standard Fire-Water-Grass triangle is preserved. Flying/Normal/Dark works equally well. Electric/Poison/Dark could work too, provided it's Water/Electric and Grass/Poison, so the offensive advantage of the secondary types vs. the primary aren't affecting the balance of the type traingle. Instead of Fire/Dark, Fire/Normal also works in that scenario.
Sadly, there are few types that fit neatly into the Fire-Water-Grass triangle like that. It works if they interact non-neutrally with one of the types, because then it can just be combined with the starter of that type, but far too many types interact with multiple starter types, or with the other possible combinations. Take for instance Ghost and Electric. No interactions with FWG (if the Electric-type is the Water starter), but there's no neutrality to be had with the remaining types (not even the go-to type for neutrality, Normal).
I suspect there are more combinations than I can think up at half past one in the morning on a Sunday, though. Are any of Smogon's many proficient scripters up for the job of discovering neutral starter type triangles, where the only relative advantages and disadvantages between the starters are those given by the primary types of Grass, Fire, and Water?
So, anyway, the secondary types of fully evolved starter Pokémon. Recently, it's something I've given almost as much consideration as three-stage evolutions or the unfair treatment of Ice-types. I think it's fair to say that we're seeing a bit of repetition in this respect. After Gen IV, which is 18 years ago this year, we've really just seen five of the 15 possible types added to starter Pokémon as secondary typings (OK, if you want to be overly technical, it's 8 out of 18, because the game treats mono-type Pokémon as dual-type Pokémon where the primary and secondary types are the same). But recently, it's been a cavalcade of repetition between Fighting, Dark, Ghost, Psychic, and Fairy, with the occasional starter without a secondary type at all.
One explanation is that Game Freak consider these types "extra cool" and want to use them to give the starters a little bit of extra marketability. But I think a secondary factor also plays in: they want to preserve a rock-paper-scissors relationship between the fully evolved starters. In addition to the usual Fire-Water-Grass triangle, these five types create many possible combinations for other triangles. Fighting-Dark-Ghost is the most obvious one (Hisui, Gen IX), but there have been variants: Fighting-Dark-Psychic (Gen VI), and Ghost-Dark-Fairy (Gen VII). And of course the ever-so-popular nothing-nothing-Fighting of Gen V. Or nothing-nothing-nothing, as was the case in Gen VIII.
The problem is that there are only so many ways to apply five types to three Pokémon, while preserving a triangle, without making a lot of repeats. We've already seen Fire/Ghost used twice in a row, Fighting and Dark have been paired with every type already, Psychic can't fit in a triangle with both Fighting and Ghost or Dark and Ghost, nor can Fairy work with both Dark and Fighting. And if you use Ghost at all, you have to put Dark in there to give it a disadvantage, which locks the third member to Fighting or Fairy so a triangle can be completed.
But wait, why are they sticking to only those five types, again? That, I think is because, not only are those five types extra cool and work easily in triangles, but they have no type chart interactions with Grass, Fire, or Water. They don't interrupt the "sacred balance" of the original rock-paper-scissors typing triangle no matter how you apply them. There's the little exception that Fire resists Fairy, but it's a minor interaction while the other types have none at all (it does mean that whichever 'mon in the secondary triangle is supposed to have an advantage over the secondary type of the Fire starter can't be Fairy, though).
There are some unused combinations that remain, so that Game Freak can continue to use these five types without repeating types too many times. We're only one step away from having used Fire/Ghost as many times as Fire/Fighting. Water/Ghost and Fire/Fairy are still unused combinations for starter Pokémon, although it locks the third type to repeat Meowscarada's Grass/Dark. But what if I told you there was another way?
That's the key part I think I can pass for "Unpopular" enough to be relevant in this thread: the secondary starter type triangle can be balanced in neutrality. Instead of the starters having relative advantages over each other, outside the Fire/Water/Grass triangle, they can be neutral. While preserving Fire/Water/Grass. It's just a bit difficult. Because there's a reason why these five types are Game Freak's go-to types for starters. They don't mess with the FWG triangle, and few other types do that. Either, they give the starters undue resistance/weaknesses to each other's types, or make the triangle unbalanced so that one is clearly "the strong one", or worse, "the weak one".
But I think there are options still. Flying/Normal/Psychic, for instance. The only caveat is that the Grass starter would have to get the Flying type (flying creates an advantage vs. Grass, but neutrality towards the two other). That way, neither starter has relative advantages or disadvantages, and the standard Fire-Water-Grass triangle is preserved. Flying/Normal/Dark works equally well. Electric/Poison/Dark could work too, provided it's Water/Electric and Grass/Poison, so the offensive advantage of the secondary types vs. the primary aren't affecting the balance of the type traingle. Instead of Fire/Dark, Fire/Normal also works in that scenario.
Sadly, there are few types that fit neatly into the Fire-Water-Grass triangle like that. It works if they interact non-neutrally with one of the types, because then it can just be combined with the starter of that type, but far too many types interact with multiple starter types, or with the other possible combinations. Take for instance Ghost and Electric. No interactions with FWG (if the Electric-type is the Water starter), but there's no neutrality to be had with the remaining types (not even the go-to type for neutrality, Normal).
I suspect there are more combinations than I can think up at half past one in the morning on a Sunday, though. Are any of Smogon's many proficient scripters up for the job of discovering neutral starter type triangles, where the only relative advantages and disadvantages between the starters are those given by the primary types of Grass, Fire, and Water?
I don't think the reason for the limited variety in starter's secondary typings is out of a desire to stick to type advantage triangles, as every type besides Normal, Dragon, and arguably Ghost fits neatly into at least one (Grass/Ground/Poison, Ice/Ground/Rock, Electric/Water/Ground, Bug/Grass/Rock, Flying/Fighting/Rock, Fairy/Fighting/Steel all cover all the potential secondary types that haven't been used since Gen IV or at all in some cases, and there are others). Even Dragon and Normal can be implemented indirectly, for example Water/Normal, Grass/Fighting, Fire/Fairy or Grass/Dragon, Fire/Ice, Water/Rock. It's probably just the "cool" factor that explains why those types are chosen over and over.
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I've said it before, but Fire/Dragon, Water/Dragon, Grass/Dragon. Which would be badass.
For a similar option: FW, WG, GF, which would let them do the "opening battle teaches you how super-effective moves work" AND "Rival is a tough final fight" at once.
You can also double-down on the type triangle. Fire/Flying, Grass/Fighting, Water/Rock, which are near-perfect.
On that note, there's plenty of "Counter the type triangle" options, especially if you're not completely perfect, though I can't figure one out at the moment.
But that said, Psychic etc are easier. I think GF may be gunshy after how unbalanced type triangles were received in the past, and so decided to stick to the safe options. I personally don't think the starters need to be perfectly matched, but it definitely feels like they're not willing to risk imbalancing them at all.
Castersvarog
formerly Maronmario
Yeah the secondary type triangle the starters have these past gens have been getting super repetitive, they really need to shake up what types they’ve been using next Gen.
Personally I think they could lean into a doubly effective option, where the starter type triangle just goes in one direction and not two different directions, making one starter amazing against one but utterly wrecked by the other.
Like I’ve made my own ideas for starters and their types are Grass/Bug, Fire/Poison and Water/Psychic. It’s not perfect, the grass starter is the only one who’s secondary type is NVE against the one it’s weak to Instead of neutral but given how Ghost is only immune to Fighting this could still work fine.
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Bug hasn't been weak to Poison for over 20 years.
Castersvarog
formerly Maronmario
But Grass is weak against poison hence the example being fire/poison.
i think starters' secondary typing don't have to necessarily be new triangles because their original types do all the work towards in-game rival battles being harder. by the time the second type is reached you should have a team that can handle anything, too.
just make them whatever secondary typing or none - it only bothers me when only one or two of them have a secondary typing, because i feel better if it's all or none of them lol. otherwise, gamefreak should prioritise a good concept and giving them good stats/skillsets for the in-game. chimchar is the best sinnoh mon and it has very little to do with its starter matchups.
just make them whatever secondary typing or none - it only bothers me when only one or two of them have a secondary typing, because i feel better if it's all or none of them lol. otherwise, gamefreak should prioritise a good concept and giving them good stats/skillsets for the in-game. chimchar is the best sinnoh mon and it has very little to do with its starter matchups.
I thought that was a pretty popular opinion. Psychic and Fairy should be excluded from this narrative as they've only been used for Delphox and Primarina. The problem is that Fighting is a really common secondary type for starters evolution line since gen 3 (firefighters, their middle evolutions, Mega Blaziken etc) and they used Fighting/ Ghost/ Dark twice in a row for Hisui and Paldea.
Water/ Normal, Fire/ Ice and Grass/ Electric would mantain neutrality but the water starter wouldn't be able to hit the fire starter super-effectively with its secondary type.
As a tangent, there are few triads that have the same kind of relationship that the F/W/G do (the strong type hits super-effectively and resists the weak type at the same time), I could only find Poison/ Grass/ Ground; Rock/ Fire/ Steel and Rock/ Flying/ Fighting.
I don't think we should underestimate the desire for balance here. Even if the starter Pokémon may not directly face each other so often in-game that balance becomes a gameplay issue, people will still compare them to each other, and it's bad (for merch sales if anything) if one of them stands out as clearly better or worse than the other two.
Take the triangle Grass/Ground/Poison, for instance. The Grass starter needs to be the Grass type, obviously. If the Water starter gets Poison as a secondary type, the Grass starter no longer has any advantage over it. Grass has no supereffective STAB vs. the Water starter, while both the Fire and Water starters now have supereffective STAB against the Grass starter --> the Grass starter becomes the objectively worst of them. So the only choice is Water/Ground, which means a double weakness to Grass, while the Fire starter has a double weakness to Ground --> the Grass starter is the only one left without a double weakness to the STAB of the others. Come to think of it, though, some balance would be restored if one starter was Grass/Fairy, creating an interesting triangle of double weaknesses.
Ice/Ground/Rock also works in one configuration. All of the three types have weak match-ups against two of the starter types, but are strong against the last. Grass/Ice, Water/Ground, and Fire/Rock would all hit each other double-effectively. The Grass starter would be the only one to have neutral STAB against the starter it's weak to, however, making the Fire starter a weaker option within the triangle. However, it'd be crazy-good against pretty much everything else the game throws against it, resisting seven types and hitting six super-effectively - conversely, the Grass starter would be weak against everything. The Water starter would have only one weakness.
Electric/Water/Ground is an interesting one. Obviously, Water is fixed here. If the secondary Ground type went to the Fire starter, it would have bad matchups against both the others, while neither of the others would have a disadvantage to compensate. But if we flip it around to Fire/Electric and Grass/Ground, Water gets bad matchups against both the others, while Grass gets good matchups both ways. Water/Flying, Fire/Ground, and Grass/Electric would be an interesting triangle, however - but probably shafting the Fire starter too much, while Grass could duke it out both ways.
I don't see Bug/Grass/Rock working very well. Grass is fixed, so the others would be Fire/Bug and Water/Rock, or Fire/Rock and Water/Bug. Either way, the Water starter gets a 4x advantage over the Fire starter, and Grass either hits both the others neutrally or trounces Water completely.
Rock generally doesn't work well with the starters, because it always creates a 4x weakness or messes with the relative weaknesses and resistances in the Grass-Fire-Water triangle. Fire/Rock is doubly weak to Water (and Ground), Water/Rock is doubly weak to Grass, and Grass/Rock is hit neutrally by the other two types (while hitting both for super-effective damage in return). Something similar goes for Ground, and the opposite for Bug and Normal (they really are the short straw when it comes to types, mostly a disadvantage to whatever is holding that type).
That being said, there seems to be a surprisingly large number of combinations that are "almost" perfect enough that they should be considered. A little bit of going off-balance worked well in generations I, III, and IV.
I love this idea. But I think it would be Grass/Water (you got Fire starter), Fire/Grass (you got Water starter) and Water/Fire (you got Grass starter) - sorry just me being ocd about the way they were ordered.
But seriously awesome idea - I’d be surprised if it ever happened but I think that would be great.
Yung Dramps
awesome gaming
After replaying (what I think is) a considerable chunk of PMD Gates to Infinity I can say that not since my first return to SM have I been so utterly baffled by the general consensus on a game.
Is this a step down from Explorers? In at least a few aspects, the answer ranges from "probably" to "definitely" (the latter descriptor is mainly in reference to the admittedly dismal Pokemon variety, more proof that the Unova era hyperfixating on its original roster at the expense of oldies was a mistake). But here's the thing: I didn't replay this after Explorers. I replayed it after Blue Rescue Team. With that in mind, I cannot take the idea of THIS being the black sheep of the series remotely seriously. The story and character writing actually has time to breathe! You properly help out and bond with a party of loveable Pokemon pals! This growth is reflected in the helpful light city-builder elements of your Paradise! Your benched Pokemon getting EXP when you're in the field alongside the Gift system makes recruiting new teammates and experimenting with composition easy, intuitive and actually worthwhile! Like damn man, now I'm mad that I didn't get Super MD (assuming it keeps all these changes or similar stuff).
Of course, there's the aforementioned caveat that I'm not done yet. For context, my last session ended right after the player character has the third Munna dream, the one after we see it looking at Post Town through bushes. If there's any disastrously bad gameplay/story decisions coming up, now's the time to warn me.
No this is NOT a little things you like repost I did NOT post this there accidentally SHUT UP
Is this a step down from Explorers? In at least a few aspects, the answer ranges from "probably" to "definitely" (the latter descriptor is mainly in reference to the admittedly dismal Pokemon variety, more proof that the Unova era hyperfixating on its original roster at the expense of oldies was a mistake). But here's the thing: I didn't replay this after Explorers. I replayed it after Blue Rescue Team. With that in mind, I cannot take the idea of THIS being the black sheep of the series remotely seriously. The story and character writing actually has time to breathe! You properly help out and bond with a party of loveable Pokemon pals! This growth is reflected in the helpful light city-builder elements of your Paradise! Your benched Pokemon getting EXP when you're in the field alongside the Gift system makes recruiting new teammates and experimenting with composition easy, intuitive and actually worthwhile! Like damn man, now I'm mad that I didn't get Super MD (assuming it keeps all these changes or similar stuff).
Of course, there's the aforementioned caveat that I'm not done yet. For context, my last session ended right after the player character has the third Munna dream, the one after we see it looking at Post Town through bushes. If there's any disastrously bad gameplay/story decisions coming up, now's the time to warn me.
No this is NOT a little things you like repost I did NOT post this there accidentally SHUT UP
The game has some really bad gameplay decisions.
For one, welcome to the PMD dex cut. The game has around 190 Pokemon, which is only around half the amount that the original PMDs did. This has some big ramifications. The smallest roster of starter Pokemon means that there are very few actual combinations that will be used, and there is not really much difference between rarer and less rare Pokemon, because they don't have the pool of Pokemon to have more creativity in which Pokemon will be in each dungeon.
The quest system is by far worse, and the dungeon gameplay itself is far worse. Questing itself leads to a slower feel, no longer do I get to build up 5+ quests for one dungeon and clear them out and get that feeling of doing a lot in each in-game day. The floor generation is really bad with only a few very large, sprawling but extremely linear patterns throughout most of the game, and this is accounted for by removing Hunger, which IMO makes the game feel less interesting or unique. Also, it makes running around long lines to recover health even better than usual.
This is compounded on this being the first PMD to really buff the economy and item gain, it is extremely easy to heal all the time, and it does not have the difficulty of Super Mystery Dungeon to make this work. You mention the story, and the story has never really been up for debate, people acknowledge it is adequate at minimum.
But the text speed is also extremely slow, with no option to speed it up. This leads to most people feeling that the game is very slow.
Super Mystery Dungeon walked back essentially everything I mentioned, while having IMO a better story and the best combat in the series. I still respect GTI as ultimately an original game, but please understand where people are coming from.
Yung Dramps
awesome gaming
Duly noted. I looked on Amazon and have noticed that you can still buy Super MD at non-deranged prices so I will be considering it.
So here's a funny thing
In OG RT, due to considering GBA hardware limits of only having 16 dynamic palettes, only 15/16 enemy pokemon can spawn on the floor at once (this includes monster houses!). It also helped that most mons shared the same palette, and ones that use unique palettes typically were size 4 mons, so you can't bring too many in your party
Explorers despite the DS not being as limited mostly for palettes kept the enemy spawn limit. 15/16 enemies max on floor, one spawning every 36 turns you're in the floor
...then Wiiware and GTI increased that limit, and uhh...
It's 50 enemies max there
So you can get super mobbed there
Map generation also is unique in GTI...with it being absolutely awful at times with the dead ends and type blocked areas. So this combo of way more enemies on floor and bad layouts can feel awful
Which with the severe dexcut, means you'll see more of the same mons frequently. Missions being limited to 1 per dungeon means forced replays for what was stackable in past/after
I feel bad cuz again...writing's good. I prefer it over Super doing rehash and awkward nostalgia that implies all games are continuity tied to each other when they aren't
Super's storyline isn't just nostalgia lmfao. That is literally just some side dialogue for the sidequests.
The main storyline is literally just GOATED asf and the most original, with the best lore and best moments imo