Type Control (Playable on Aqua and Pandora)

[Adrian Marin]

Here are some calcs (these both assume neutral damage):

252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Porygon-Z Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Blissey: 214-252 (32.8 - 38.6%) -- 4.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Blissey in Sun: 220-261 (33.7 - 40%) -- 32.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

So Zard-Y has more turn 1 power than Specs Porygon-Z with its most powerful move. Banning Porygon-Z because of its raw power would be stupid. An advantage Porygon-Z has over Zard-Y in this meta is the ability to boost with Nasty Plot, but that doesn't change the fact that it can still be countered by Blissey with STAB Shadow Ball. This was just for comparison. The post I really wanted to respond to was this:

The fact that Porygon-Z and Landrous may not share a single common counter does not make either broken. Name one Pokemon in OU which counters both Mega Charizard-Y and Keldeo. Just because they don't share a counter does not make them broken. In type control, you can use Ghost / Normal Blissey to counter Pory-Z and Ghost / Fairy Chansey to counter Landorus. Hell, you don't even have to give a shit about Keldeo because both are immune to Sacred Sword. I can't even think of one special attacker which can break through both Chansey and Blissey in type control, and in OU you have to usually run at least three separate counters to deal with Zard-Y, Keldeo, and Landorus, so stall has a pretty good deal here in comparison. Combine those two with Avalugg which walls the vast majority of physical threats, and you have most of the meta countered with three teamslots to spare. You can use these three teamslots to patch up vulnerabilities to setup sweepers, Taunt / Substitute, and anything else which gives your stall team problems. I think the main problem with Adrian Marin's team is that it is too passive. Why the hell does he need Cress on his team when he already has Chansey + Blissey + Avalugg? He could replace that with something which can actually do some damage to deal with Pokemon to give stall problems. He could probably also replace Mew with something that is more immediately threatening. In OU or in any meta, you can't just rely on Toxic and Stealth Rock to do damage because other players will use Taunt, Substitute, Magic Guard, Poison Heal, etc. so you have to prepare for that when building a stall team. Stall doesn't need any extra help from banning Porygon-Z, Landorus, or Gliscor because wallbreakers and stallbreakers are part of any meta and stall teams should be expected to find a way around them.

I don't really think Porygon-Z is broken against offensive teams either. It has mediorce speed, no priority, and its bulk is not very good. It needs Agility to be effective against offensive teams, but then it isn't quite as stupid powerful and it is still weak to Sucker Punch. Finding the setup turn can also be difficult for it.

Landorus fits in the same box as Porygon-Z with a lot of these traits, so I don't see it as broken either. I think we need to play many more battles before we ban anything unless it is totally obvious that a Pokemon is causing the meta to completely revolve around it.

Let me clear a few things up:

• Latias counters both Mega Charizard-Y and Keldeo.
• Most teams in the OU meta don't carry a whopping three counters to the threats mentioned.
• You also say my team is passive and that I do not need Cresselia; this is completely wrong, as Cresselia patches up many holes against most physical attackers.

Yes, all metagames need stallbreakers, but when a metagame revolves around passive Pokemon, stallbreakers become a lot better. Let's face it, you can't run bulky offense, offense, or even heavy offense that well in in Type Control, as the defensive threats in this metagame centralise the it. The most offensive teams seen are more like balanced than anything else; as a result, Porygon-Z can consistently have a good matchup because the metagame is kind to it. e.g, if the OU meta was forced to be more stall-oriented, Mega Heracross would have an easy time setting up, and would centralise the metagame; that's exactly what's happening with Porygon-Z, and no one has provided a good argument why it's unhealthy for the metagame. Here's a few things I notice about Porygon-Z:

• Porygon-Z does not have consistent counters.
• Porygon-Z has an easy time setting up, since all teams need passive walls.
• Porygon-Z can run multiple sets effectively.

Also,

Adrian Marin creates a meta favorable to stall and then wants to ban anything remotely threatening to stall

I find this amusing, since I want to ban Porygon-Z because it has very few solid checks/counters, NOT because it threatens stall. Porygon-Z threatens the entire metagame, as every team needs at least one passive wall, making it vastly easier for Porygon-Z to setup.

 

[DoW]

One set I've been trying out seems to be working quite well:

Steel/Fairy (Espeon) @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Dazzling Gleam
- Shadow Ball
- Wish

This functions as wish support, magic bounce support, but mostly my late-game cleaner. Espeon's not particularly great in OU because of its bad Psychic defensive typing, however with a godly Steel/Fairy defensive typing and equally good Ghost/Fairy offensive coverage, this thing's capable of taking hits and dishing them out. It needs the opponent's unaware mon(s) to be taken out, but once this is done (or they've been toxic'd), magic bounce and maximum defense investment make it fairly easy to get enough boosts to muscle past most defensive walls, though Chansey or Blissey that it can't hit super effectively can be problematic. Since most pink blobs seem to be part ghost, however, it can generally get the job done. I find a shadow tag user is a good partner to get rid of pink blobs that it can't hit SE (unless they're ghost/normal), some unaware mons, and other generally annoying things.


A similar pokemon would be mega absol running Play Nuke and Shadow Claw or Knock Off, and Swords Dance over CM, however its (slightly) lower bulk specially, as well as not boosting a defensive stat along with an offensive one and not having leftovers lead me to believe this would be a worse option if not worried about non-ghost pink blobs.

 

[Emerald Master]

Let me clear a few things up:

• Latias counters both Mega Charizard-Y and Keldeo.
• Most teams in the OU meta don't carry a whopping three counters to the threats mentioned.
• You also say my team is passive and that I do not need Cresselia; this is completely wrong, as Cresselia patches up many holes against most physical attackers.

Yes, all metagames need stallbreakers, but when a metagame revolves around passive Pokemon, stallbreakers become a lot better. Let's face it, you can't run bulky offense, offense, or even heavy offense that well in in Type Control, as the defensive threats in this metagame centralise the it. The most offensive teams seen are more like balanced than anything else; as a result, Porygon-Z can consistently have a good matchup because the metagame is kind to it. e.g, if the OU meta was forced to be more stall-oriented, Mega Heracross would have an easy time setting up, and would centralise the metagame; that's exactly what's happening with Porygon-Z, and no one has provided a good argument why it's unhealthy for the metagame. Here's a few things I notice about Porygon-Z:

• Porygon-Z does not have consistent counters.
• Porygon-Z has an easy time setting up, since all teams need passive walls.
• Porygon-Z can run multiple sets effectively.

Also,



I find this amusing, since I want to ban Porygon-Z because it has very few solid checks/counters, NOT because it threatens stall. Porygon-Z threatens the entire metagame, as every team needs at least one passive wall, making it vastly easier for Porygon-Z to setup.

how about calming down? Porygon-Z may threaten the meta as of now but sometimes the meta needs a good threat to force it to develop

"Instead of seeing what people want you to see, you have to open your mind to the possibilities" ~King Bumi

 

[Kit Kasai]

How about show me an actual counter instead of just saying "calm down" when that person is obviously perfectly calm.

 

[CactusCacti]

ok.
Take a blissey, give it 132 Spa or make it full out offensive blissey (LEL) and keep 252 in SPD, rest whereever, maybe def even tho its paper anyway.
Depending how much you want it to block is dependant on the typing but if its ground/normal and the porygon is ghost/electric with icebeam coverage:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Porygon-Z Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Blissey: 214-252 (32.8 - 38.7%) -- 4.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
And this is specs.

132 SpA Blissey Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Porygon-Z: 136-162 (43.7 - 52%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
This is non stab shadow against ghost porygon.

Hey look 75 spa doing something.

Alternativviviviviily; Offensive pressure. P-z hates offensive pressure.
P-z is just one of those cases that need to be pressured and kept in check, if left alone, it wrecks havoc.
but honestly, I do not find it outright broken.

 

[EV]

In defense of Adrian and OM creators in general:

Congratulations, Adrian Marin ! You've created a metagame that people are already very passionate about! But everybody let's not get too swept up in the "no you calm down" and "lol he just wants to ban what he doesn't like" quips. Adrian brought up PZ for discussion, so let's discuss rationally but also remember this is his metagame right now. If he feels it needs a ban, he has that right. IF it grows to the point where he wants a council he can turn to them for help with these decisions. For now, at least he's trying to be conciliatory and didn't just say "welp it's banned, haha offense."

So keep up the great discussion! I think as long as we steer clear of shoehorning him into some stall-is-love narrative where that's all he thinks about, this will continue to be productive. Overall, Type Control is off to a great start!

 

[The Immortal]

Be sure to vote for it in future Other Metagame of The Months!!

Speaking of, it will not be eligible for OMotM because of how it works. Using nicknames isn't the best idea for a ladder. Except for the tiny group (relative to the number of PS users) that visit the OM forum, nobody would know that it works through nicknames. The only way they would know is if they decided to ladder with a standard team and get paired with someone that knows how it works and that person explains it to them, if they ask in the Other Metas room, or if they search on Smogon. Not knowing the rules/banlist is one thing, but having to figure out how to play the format is undesirable.

 

[Halliday]

Speaking of, it will not be eligible for OMotM because of how it works. Using nicknames isn't the best idea for a ladder. Except for the tiny group (relative to the number of PS users) that visit the OM forum, nobody would know that it works through nicknames. The only way they would know is if they decided to ladder with a standard team and get paired with someone that knows how it works and that person explains it to them, if they ask in the Other Metas room, or if they search on Smogon. Not knowing the rules/banlist is one thing, but having to figure out how to play the format is undesirable.

I see your point, but that still sucks, since type control is really fun and would make a great omotm otherwise.

 

[Ghoul King]

Speaking of, it will not be eligible for OMotM because of how it works. Using nicknames isn't the best idea for a ladder. Except for the tiny group (relative to the number of PS users) that visit the OM forum, nobody would know that it works through nicknames. The only way they would know is if they decided to ladder with a standard team and get paired with someone that knows how it works and that person explains it to them, if they ask in the Other Metas room, or if they search on Smogon. Not knowing the rules/banlist is one thing, but having to figure out how to play the format is undesirable.

Shouldn't that render 6-moves invalid for voting too? It's the same problem, except you can't even guess at the process based on what's in front of you.

Some further thoughts.

Have a physical attacker you're just sick of getting Burned? Make it part-Fire type. (Alas, weakness to Stealth Rock) Have a wall you don't want being hit with Toxic? Part Steel or Poison. Want something immune to both? Well you can absolutely do that, and if it's a Levitator anyway you can mostly ignore the Ground double weakness.

Infuriated by Spore? Part-Grass, go.

Aurorus can be Ice/Electric or some other not-completely-awful type combination and maybe see use! (Electric because it has surprisingly good access to Electric moves)

Mega Pinsir can be a non-awful type combination, such as Flying/Steel or something better suited to its movepool. (Flying/Ground for Earthquake?)

Mega Gardevoir can shift to Fairy/other type. I'm personally trying out Fairy/Ghost, because I so often find myself using Shadow Ball on Mega Gardevoir anyway, but it's also got a few Electric moves and Grass moves and other stuff like that. Or you could go for Steel to cover up its Fairy weaknesses and render it immune to Toxic. Or part Grass for the Grass STAB+Spore immunity.

Rhyperior can elect to have a non-terrible type combination and maybe not die instantly to everything. For most obnoxious results, make it Water/Flying and give it Lightningrod instead of Solid Rock. It even gets Aqua Tail!

I personally feel Metagross suffers more than it gains from being part Psychic in Gen VI. Now it can be Steel/Ground or something. Nice.

Dark/Fairy and Fighting/Fairy are the only ways to be doubly resistant to Dark without being doubly weak to Fairy. Something to keep in mind if Dark is troubling you.

Make Toxicroak Fire/Ground with Dry Skin and laugh. Or any other Water Absorb, Dry Skin, or Storm Drain Pokemon, but Toxicroak has Earthquake for STAB and a physical statblock. Not sure about Fire moves for it though.

Special Diancie barely benefits, since the problem is its movepool. I guess you could make it Psychic/Fairy to get STAB on its stronger moves and escape having a double weakness though. Physical Diancie appreciates the potential more, since it doesn't even have a physical Fairy move.

Aerodactyl (Amongst many, many Flying types with bad Flying STAB access) can abandon its Flying type entirely for something more fitting to its STABs! Maybe Dark/Rock for Crunch/Rock Slide... though that has a double Fighting weakness so maybe not.

Weather Ball users can be type-matched to the weather you want them using. Venusaur and Victreebell can finally give you a Pokemon with Chlorophyll and Fire STAB in the sun, and can even combine it with STAB Solar Beam. (!!) Cherrim and Roserade (... and Ho-Oh??) don't get Chlorophyll or anything (Flower Gift is awful in singles) but can still do Fire move/Solar Beam with STAB in the sun too. Raikou can be made into a Rock type for Sand (Upped Special Defense, and Rock and Electric are a decent offensive combo), an Ice type for Hail (Boltbeam), a Fire type for Sun (Another decent Electric Sun abuser, alongside Heliolisk), or a Water type for Rain. (Presumably Water/Electric for Thunder!) And Drifblim, Vanilluxe, Lugia, Glalie and Froslass are all other users of Weather Ball, though less notable than the prior ones.

 

[The Immortal]

Shouldn't that render 6-moves invalid for voting too? It's the same problem, except you can't even guess at the process based on what's in front of you.

Indeed. 6 moves existed before I became OM mod and was part of the OMotM nominations, though it never won, so I didn't think about it. I'll make it ineligible too.

 

[Adrian Marin]

Indeed. 6 moves existed before I became OM mod and was part of the OMotM nominations, though it never won, so I didn't think about it. I'll make it ineligible too.

Wouldn't BH prior to the EV limit implementation technically have a similar case? New players didn't know that you could use megas, max evs, etc.

 

[The Immortal]

Wouldn't BH prior to the EV limit implementation technically have a similar case? New players didn't know that you could use megas, max evs, etc.

Not exactly. The teambuilder had max EVs suggested. Also, that's not knowing the rules. You would instantly know the rules of 6 moves from the name but would not know how to put 6 moves on your Pokemon.

 

[Ranger Mike]

Guys double dancing porygon z poops on literally every playstyle, stab ADAPTABILITY BOLTBEAM wrecks everything in it's path, the only real things that can switch in are like chansey but that can be said for every special attacker. Do you want to have to run chansey on every team I know I don't. So yeah even though I play offense in all metas including this one ban pz.

 

[Halliday]

Boltbeam is honestly not as good here as it was before.It was generally used because it was able to hit a wide range of Pokemon 4x effective, but in type control, no one is running stuff 4x weak to ice or electric, so it doesn't have nearly as much potency. A better tuing would be electric / psychic as it has the ability to break chansey through psyshock. In general though, ice / electric is pretty mediocre due to the stealth rock weakness and overabundance of steel types.

 

[Red Cat]

Speaking of, it will not be eligible for OMotM because of how it works. Using nicknames isn't the best idea for a ladder. Except for the tiny group (relative to the number of PS users) that visit the OM forum, nobody would know that it works through nicknames. The only way they would know is if they decided to ladder with a standard team and get paired with someone that knows how it works and that person explains it to them, if they ask in the Other Metas room, or if they search on Smogon. Not knowing the rules/banlist is one thing, but having to figure out how to play the format is undesirable.

I don't see how this is much different from the current OMotM, Metagamiate, where if you don't know that every Normal type move becomes STAB and gets a boost, you won't know to use Normal type moves on your Pokemon to take advantage of the meta's mechanics. If you don't know that nicknames control the Pokemon's typing in this meta, you can still build a team and use it, but it will suck because you will be using the Pokemon's regular typing. You won't know the exact rules for any Other Meta unless you visit Smogon or the Other Metas room on PS, or you hear them from someone else. Type Control isn't any different.

Edit: It looks like 350 Cup is going to win this month. Just going by the name, could anyone figure out the rules for 350 Cup without looking anything up?

 

[The Immortal]

You can make a Metagamiate team through normal means. Not knowing the rules is completely different to not knowing how to make a team for it. If you can't make a team through normal means, it won't go on the main server. This is something I say as administrator of Showdown, rather than OM mod.

 

[Ghoul King]

Guys double dancing porygon z poops on literally every playstyle, stab ADAPTABILITY BOLTBEAM wrecks everything in it's path, the only real things that can switch in are like chansey but that can be said for every special attacker. Do you want to have to run chansey on every team I know I don't. So yeah even though I play offense in all metas including this one ban pz.

Honestly if boltbeam Porygon Z in specific is a big deal you can just take a Pokemon with Lightning Rod, Motor Drive, or Volt Absorb and give it a double resistance to Ice via types. Or take a Thick Fat Pokemon and make it Ground/type resistant to Ice.

Also why can't I get any matches on this meta.

 

[Adrian Marin]

You can make a Metagamiate team through normal means. Not knowing the rules is completely different to not knowing how to make a team for it. If you can't make a team through normal means, it won't go on the main server. This is something I say as administrator of Showdown, rather than OM mod.

I don't understand how you can't make teams through normal means as you're not obligated to change a Pokemon's type. It's just an option. In AAA, you don't have to use almost any ability, and in various other metagames, you're not obligated to take advantage of any of its features.

 

[Red Cat]

I wonder if there is another way to choose the types other than nicknames. The problems with Camomons are that defensive Pokemon usually have to run inferior moves to get desirable typings and that the typings are hidden so you kind of have to guess what type the opposing Pokemon is which makes it less competitive. One possible solution could be to use IVs like Hidden Power to determine type combinations. You could have an IV combination for every type combination without reducing any IV by more than 2. Unfortunately, while this causes the type combinations to be decided by more "normal" means as The Immortal puts it, people would either have to be good at math to figure out which IVs they need to use to get the type combination they want, or there would have to be a type combination encyclopedia to figure out which IVs correspond to which type combinations (all 171 of them including single types if I did my math correctly). If this would make Type Control eligible for OMotM, it may be worth it to do this, but this would definitely make the game less accessible. Does anyone have any better ideas to determine the type combinations?

Edit:

I don't understand how you can't make teams through normal means as you're not obligated to change a Pokemon's type. It's just an option. In AAA, you don't have to use almost any ability, and in various other metagames, you're not obligated to take advantage of any of its features.

I think the problem is that nicknames are never used to determine any competitive feature of a Pokemon in any meta other than this.

Edit 2: Throbulator36, that is an option, but then you nerf Return / Frustration for some type combinations which include Normal.

Edit by The Immortal: No, that is not an option. It requires you to know how to do it.

Edit 3: Sigh... I guess The Immortal just doesn't want this to happen.

 

[Throbulator36]

I wonder if there is another way to choose the types other than nicknames. The problems with Camomons are that defensive Pokemon usually have to run inferior moves to get desirable typings and that the typings are hidden so you kind of have to guess what type the opposing Pokemon is which makes it less competitive. One possible solution could be to use IVs like Hidden Power to determine type combinations. You could have an IV combination for every type combination without reducing any IV by more than 2. Unfortunately, while this causes the type combinations to be decided by more "normal" means as The Immortal puts it, people would either have to be good at math to figure out which IVs they need to use to get the type combination they want, or there would have to be a type combination encyclopedia to figure out which IVs correspond to which type combinations (all 171 of them including single types if I did my math correctly). If this would make Type Control eligible for OMotM, it may be worth it to do this, but this would definitely make the game less accessible. Does anyone have any better ideas to determine the type combinations?

Happiness

 

[Skankovich]

Something cool is that you can make Florges Grass/Whatever, and it essentially gets Magic Guard from Flower Veil. Might make a neat Calm Minder.

 

[Ununhexium]

this must have been a bitch to code lol

 

[PokemonMasterDebater]

You can make a Metagamiate team through normal means. Not knowing the rules is completely different to not knowing how to make a team for it. If you can't make a team through normal means, it won't go on the main server. This is something I say as administrator of Showdown, rather than OM mod.

I am also completely baffled by your logic. Literally every time there is a new OM on the main server, when I'm doing battles, people have looked up that tier for active battles and asked me about the rules. Doesn't matter what it is, people ask other battlers on PS. They could also come to the OM room and ask too, or look in the PS news box announcing the new OMotM. Your statement that they would have to come here to find out how to play the rules how to teambuild is simply wrong.

Not to mention, this is the most visible and intuitive change in any OM I've ever seen. I could have never heard of Type Control, and then learned how it worked by watching just a single replay. And unlike 6 move battling, you can make a team just fine in the Teambuilder, without any txt editing.

 

[The Fennec Fox]

I just love how this meta throws flavor out of the window. I really wanna try and imagine the different mons with the types. Like Steel/Fairy Aggron

 

[Emerald Master]

I just love how this meta throws flavor out of the window. I really wanna try and imagine the different mons with the types. Like Steel/Fairy Aggron

don't forget flying/fire wailord