The Requirements of "Uber" Status

[DrCrashMD]

A thought occured to me, brushing my teeth, that, the majority of the Ubers tier is dominated by the "Legendaries" Gamefreak has implemented as creatures superior in strength to their others. This mostly entitles them to above-average stats, and the movepool to use those stats with, or a lacking movepool, with the stats to balance that. For other legendaries - Raikou, Suicune, Entei - their stats are not balanced enough for their somewhat lackluster movepool, knocking them off the pedestal into either OU or BL status.

Now, I was wondering - if gargantuan stat totals and varied movepools, with somewhat supportive stats, are the requirements of an "Uber", what would it take for a non-legendary to be pushed up to Uber status - Wobbufett not included. This also brings me to an issue that was exceedingly overplayed - the infamous and incredibly annoying "Tyranitar should be Uber" debate. Despite his impressive stats, and moves, and his so-called, "cheap factor", the Special Defense boost in Sanstorm for Rock-Types, which he himself can set up; his Uber status (which I believe justly didn't happen - thankfully that storm has subsided) was denied by the public, and more importantly, Smogon.

So my question is this: What do YOU think is required for a Pokemon to be rightly pushed into the Uber Tier? Typing? Stats? Movepool? Ability? A combination? Please discuss.

Please note this is NOT a discussion of current Pokemon you think whose tiers should be changed - this is a general question.

 

[Fenikkusu]

I believe we'd probably use the same criteria that UU uses to bump things up to BL and out of UU. If it would overcentralize the metagame to the point where you'd have to either run it or run a counter to it in order to be effective, it would be "uber".

 

[Yoshi King]

I believe we'd probably use the same criteria that UU uses to bump things up to BL and out of UU. If it would overcentralize the metagame to the point where you'd have to either run it or run a counter to it in order to be effective, it would be "uber".

This. /thread, sadly, there really isn't much more to discuss. Ubers only become Ubers when it's an absolute necessity to do so, because being relegated to Ubers usually means your Pokemon won't be seeing any -if at all- usage anymore due to the Legendaries taking up most slots on a team.

 

[Fishin]

What do YOU think is required for a Pokemon to be rightly pushed into the Uber Tier? Typing? Stats? Movepool? Ability? A combination? Please discuss.

A combonation, as well as the metagame it's played in. Some uber pokemon are countered pretty effectively by non-uber pokemon - however, allowing the uber-in-question pokemon in standard play would overcentralize it to the point where you'd almost have to have that specific counter on your team. Of course, with Focus Sash, Scarf, and random priority moves nothing is absolutely unstoppable, but there is a limit and I think that the current OU/Uber tiers do a good job of reflecting that.

 

[Lee]

I believe a requirement is for them to be virtually impossible to counter in the current metagame without running overly specialised Pokemon.

The likes of Mew, Arceus and Latios have the stats and movepool to form incredible movesets which are a struggle to counter even after the opponent knows them. And even though I believe say, Garchomp to be ridiculously overpowered, he doesn't quite meet that criteria.

 

[bullfrogegg8]

People pretty much gave no thought to the semi-ubers where the jump from OU to uber is way to far and it would give blissey, deoxys-e, ttar, ho-oh, and garchomp a place where they could fight evenly. Face it, ttar or garchomp are no match for ubers.

 

[Lee]

Face it, ttar or garchomp are no match for ubers.

I haven't played Ubers at all this gen, but from what I hear, Tyranitar is oustanding in the Uber metagame...

 

[X-Act]

It doesn't matter if a Pokemon is no match for ubers.

I believe a requirement is for them to be virtually impossible to counter in the current metagame without running overly specialised Pokemon.

If that statement holds for any Pokemon, it will be moved up to uber, irrespective of whether it will 'do well' there or not. 'Doing well' in ubers is a moot point actually though, since ubers is not a balanced metagame anyway.

 

[Strype McClaine]

While I am no vet. of smogon, I think I have a few decent points to make on this.

Consider the types of uber that you have pointed out for us, strong stats, and workable move pools. From this you could say, anything with a good stat set, and a good move pool, breaks the standard environment and becomes uber. This is by far an overstatement, however, a good way to determine what makes an uber is to look at the "best" that gamefreak gave us, and see what they teach us. Sort of a genetic code study...in reverse.

The first thing to note is about stat distributions. Most your basic legends get good stat totals. I'll do a quick run down on the stats...

Arceus 720; Huge stat set, and a move pool that rivels the king of pools, mew himself...this is by far, the high watermark that all ubers wish they were, masturbate to every night, in short, the best you can get. Let us speak no more of this.

The Birds, Beasts, Regis, Pixies all are at 580; All of which, are not uber but consider their stat buy-ins are just above starter pokes, pretty dang strong for single stage pokes, and all around arn't bad...None of which...are ubers.

Mewtwo, Rayquaza,Giratina, Palkia, Dialga, Ho-oh, Lugia 680
Groudon, Kyogre, 670...Lati@s 600; All of the title legends, have total stat points, into the stratosphere..Lati's Soul dew gives them an extra 120 stat points at the cost of leftovers recovery. The point is you big heavy hitters are out of the park on just about everything.

The 600 Pokes; Just above the legendary trio's and just below the superheros of the franchise lay the cute and medium pokes of the 600 stat range. Lines are drawn in the sand here, non legendaries stick their heads above the stat clouds and look around at the mews, the celibi, and the crestelias.

Here I think the first rule can actually be made. Any pokemon with a base stat total above 600 should be an uber, that is of course, if the other conditions apply, making it uber material.

Now then, let us talk move pools and Abilities, Lets start on the shallow end of the move pool before taking the high dive. Most of the boys in the pond are of course, from the 600 club.

Wobbuffet, the punching bag of love and hate, has a lousy move pool, however the nature is murder, and the moves mesh well together. It is deadly enough to outclass everything in its way...Uber material.

Moving up, we hit such things as manaphy. Good Ability, meshes well with others, plays nicely, and has tail glow going for it. Tail glow, is of course the deciding factor. Like what swords dance and amnesia did in RBY tail glow seems to do on manaphy. It may not have the deepest pool, but it covers the basics, and gets strong, way too fast.

One of my old personal freinds, Celibi and Jirachi, are slightly in deeper. Celibi suffers from horrible typing, while Jirachi suffers form a lack of depth, and struggles to make a big impact on the game.

Mew. Mew scares me. Mew haunts my dreams as I try to snuggle tightly to a mewtwo plushie. Not realy, but look at the move pool. And the abilty. This is a high water mark of uber as well, and really, same as deoxis, the versitily is stopped only by your imagination and your IV's.

Here is my summery.
First, an Uber must have at least, a 600 stat distrubtion, if it has greater than that, it is most likely an uber.

Second, Ability, How game breaking or shaping is that ability? Pressure seems lack luster alot of times, but something like drizzle? Air Lock? Hydrate? Shadow Tag? When placed on the right poke, abilities can be more important than moves. T-Tar's Sandstorm does alot, 8% damage, and 1.5 special boost for rocks...stout...but compare that to the game breaking drizzle, doubling a stabbed attack and providing a 100% accuracy thunder...that, is alot more game breaking.

Finely Move Pool. Manaphy, and darkrai's move pool tells us alot. Sometimes shallow, if given the right tools in support moves, and moves that have just down right good balanced coverage (unlike fox news), make the differance. If was say to be a mew/arceus/smeargle powered movepool? Yes. It makes the cut, by far.

I think it stands to reason, unless they make a non legend with stats better than 600 it will likely be an uber...unless shit for moves.

I hope I wasn't too repetitive with my thoughts here.

 

[Sunday]

about covered it strype, but didn't mention Slaking and Regigigas, who hasve uber-worthy base total stats, but horrid abilitys which kill them.

 

[Strype McClaine]

about covered it strype, but didn't mention Slaking and Regigigas, who hasve uber-worthy base total stats, but horrid abilitys which kill them.

It was more of a breif legend study. Regi-king...to me, is a disappointments, if it had...another ability, sure, maybe, but then, guh...you know, it just leaves a bad, metalic taste in my mouth

I didnt want to think about adding regi in their, the breif nod to crestelia (being OU) and Darkrai being uber, I think just kinda gave a cover to show how the 600 pointer's faired....I put Lati's above 600 pointers, due to the dew, and in the same thoughts, I put the regi-king, below 600 pointers , since his ability, puts him more at a 540 stat range. And even at 540, he still seems lack luster.

Sorry, I lurk alot, and don't post unless I feel he need, or boredom too. And Yes, I do all my innital calcs in base stats, the numbers are just a bit more friendly, and easier to deal with...[And side note to X-act: thank you for the normalization formulas, they are absolutely brilliant.]

 

[Lee]

I didnt want to think about adding regi in their, the breif nod to crestelia (being OU) and Darkrai being uber,

That's an interesting point. They both possess fantastic stat distribution and useful movepools, but there's a marked difference between them. The way I see it, a powerful sweeper is a lot more likely to find itself in Ubers than a sturdy wall is. Possibly because we view walls as easier to "counter."

Or it could be the Pursuit weak.

 

[Strype McClaine]

That's an interesting point. They both possess fantastic stat distribution and useful movepools, but there's a marked difference between them. The way I see it, a powerful sweeper is a lot more likely to find itself in Ubers than a sturdy wall is. Possibly because we view walls as easier to "counter."

Or it could be the Pursuit weak.

I think the real note here, is the nature, and the specialized moves. Cressy's levitate only strengthens its wall ish ness, however, Bad Dreams and Void, are just an evil combo to activate with the darkrai. Effectively, you are getting the 8% (?) and a sleep effect. Correct me on this, but are their any other sleep effects in the game that does damage on the turn its used? AND Darkvoid hits that nice 80%, better than hypno, shy of spore.
This is one of the game breaking effects I was nodding in the direction of. Now, when you consider that setup, and then add on the good sweeper stats. Now it pushes back into the uber category.

edit: I didn't realise slacking was a 670, only non legend to break the 600 water mark? Its still way better than regi-king, and yet, Its nature over rides the awsome stats and moves, so it has to have decent moves/stats/and nature...minum....typeing...well, also helps, but its not necessary, if celibi had a few better moves, I think it would defiantly be uber material. However, I am biased to the lil guy

 

[Lee]

Yeah, Darkrai is INCREDIBLY uber, no doubt about that. What I was getting at is Cresselia demonstrates that part of the "Uber Requirement" is some form of sweeping/offensive presence.

 

[FFMaster]

darkrai i think gets uber status due to its massive synnergy. and it should be noted that its sleep move hits both opponents on 2v2(not that it matters)

 

[Anti]

An Uber is a Pokemon that would negate the use of a lot of other Pokemon in the tier due to either outclassing or destroying them and therefore limiting the metagame.

 

[I am Gengar]

I would note that typing alone does not make an uber, or Spiritomb and Sableye would be uber

 

[Spaniard]

It doesn't matter if a Pokemon is no match for ubers.

I believe a requirement is for them to be virtually impossible to counter in the current metagame without running overly specialised Pokemon.

If that statement holds for any Pokemon, it will be moved up to uber, irrespective of whether it will 'do well' there or not. 'Doing well' in ubers is a moot point actually though, since ubers is not a balanced metagame anyway.

Absolutely true.

 

[dirtybirdy]

I also agree with x-act. And for what its worth, I think tyranitar has no business in uber.

 

[DrCrashMD]

As in the instance of Slaking and Regigigas: Monstrous stats, but abilities to balance that - would Gamefreak ever make another non-legendary that met the criteria of "Uber" besides another Wobbufett ripoff?

My question: What is your personal criteria that requires a Pokemon to be Uber?

 

[Trust]

In my opinion, we could make a BLUber tier, where all the 600 stats and up were, and others like Deoxys-e or Ho-oh could be too. This could be funny an hibrid with the worst Ubers and better OU, this could be a different metagame...

 

[Strype McClaine]

As in the instance of Slaking and Regigigas: Monstrous stats, but abilities to balance that - would Gamefreak ever make another non-legendary that met the criteria of "Uber" besides another Wobbufett ripoff?

My question: What is your personal criteria that requires a Pokemon to be Uber?

I slept on the idea for a while, and I was wondering, if their was a way to base power level of an ability to say a stat, then you could rough the numbers a little. It requires an arbitrary rating system, but say for example shadow tag, shadow tag is massively strong, and yet is on the 480 wobbuffet, what base stat value could shadow tag be worth? Dugtrio, has...essentially, the same ability, and he isn't uber, but it really raises his over all value.

My personal criteria is that the entire metagame has to be concidered, its stats/movepool/typeing have to be worth it, and the ability has to be worth it...

Maybe its my time being cross genera gaming, but every ability has a "cost", and if a bp like value could be applied, you could see, even easyer, where pokes lie, while this wouldnt solve the problem of movepool/typeing, it might shed new light on the teirs

 

[X-Act]

I slept on the idea for a while, and I was wondering, if their was a way to base power level of an ability to say a stat, then you could rough the numbers a little. It requires an arbitrary rating system, but say for example shadow tag, shadow tag is massively strong, and yet is on the 480 wobbuffet, what base stat value could shadow tag be worth? Dugtrio, has...essentially, the same ability, and he isn't uber, but it really raises his over all value.

My personal criteria is that the entire metagame has to be concidered, its stats/movepool/typeing have to be worth it, and the ability has to be worth it...

Maybe its my time being cross genera gaming, but every ability has a "cost", and if a bp like value could be applied, you could see, even easyer, where pokes lie, while this wouldnt solve the problem of movepool/typeing, it might shed new light on the teirs

Exactly. I agree completely with this. A Pokemon is its typing, movepool, abilities and base stats. It's a combination of all these 4 factors that makes a Pokemon exactly what it is, and what ultimately decides its tier.

 

[Yggdrasil]

Exactly. I agree completely with this. A Pokemon is its typing, movepool, abilities and base stats. It's a combination of all these 4 factors that makes a Pokemon exactly what it is, and what ultimately decides its tier.

i totally agree with this but, is it the flaws of the combination of these 4 that decide whether a pokemon is uber or not? for example...tyranitar has an awesome ability, great movepool, super base stats BUT his typing makes him 4X weak to fighting. is that what is keeping him from being uber? on the other hand, wobbuffet has great hp, defences are so and so, typing is o.k., but movepool makes him very predictable, but his ability makes up for this. this might mean one of these so-called combination elements outweighs the others? or am i completely off?

 

[LightningLord]

I tell out of boredom that Wobbuffet isn't banned in OU Tier because it's a Uber, it's banned because the fight would be Infinitive if both have a Wobbuffet out.