Metagame Terastallization Tiering Discussion [ UPDATE POST #1293]

[flamewizzy21]

This feels like an argument not worth having, at least not here.

Point being, the goal of smogon rules is to make games that are enjoyable to play. Whether or not Tera belongs in the ruleset depends on how you weigh: (Tera makes the game fun by diversity and strategic choices around it) vs (Tera is unfun by being too unwieldy to play around, leading to game-winning ass-pulls).

I’m not arguing one way or the other right now. But these are the two sides of the scales that must be considered when considering a Tera ban. Some level of bullshit is tolerable if it feels like the mechanic adds a lot of replayability and enjoyment to the people playing the game. The question is whether or not the BS is too much, and everyone will have their own answer.

 

[Colonel M]

I'm sorry TPP I'm breaking my silence.

Sorry, I must have been really confused when I said Smogon has anything to do with fun. The only goal is to make a 100% balanced metagame. To achieve this, I move to: ban all pokemon except Pikachu, ban all held items (it’s not fair if I can’t know if you have a choice scarf), ban all non-attacking moves (because those can surprise your opponent), and ban EV/IV/non-neutral natures (because being surprised by a speed tier or damage calc is frankly uncompetitive). And I feel like banning tera and switching is just obvious.

As long as everyone’s team is all pikachu under these simple rules, we will never have any issues with balance. It’s perfectly competitive. I take it you would give my proposal your full support?

This is a pretty poor argument (and actually, I'd argue a strawman) on what Smogon does as a whole.

Smogon's goal is to make competitive tiers. Smogon's goal does not quantify "fun" into the equation of competitive. You could argue that mechanics such as Terrastalizing make for interesting and even innovative matchups. The issue is, there are also negative aspects to Terrastilizing and other things that we have banned in the past that, even though they may be fun, are extremely uncompetitive. Dynamax was a fun meta - when you weren't the one getting snowballed on. Allowing Dynamax would have been severely damaging to the Gen 8 metagame even if you feel that Gen 8 was "boring" without it. In spite of the absence of Dynamax, the meta moved on and found different and creative ways to play the game.

tl;dr - Regardless on your stance, incorporating "fun" into your argument will not have you taken seriously by anyone here. Smogon strives to be competitive. Fun is not a factor of this. If you don't believe me, see for yourself on Smogon Philosophy.

 

[Duckstroyer]

So the main issues with Tera that I've personally felt are as follows:

(As a note, I've been on the Pro-Tera side pretty much the entire generation, but I'm second guessing my previous opinions)

1) Each turn before Tera is used applies relevant pressure and false tempo

I think this specific part about Tera is what makes it such a feel bad situation. The issue with Tera is that you gain false tempo simply due to the threat of Tera potentially happening. Bear with me with a quick anecdote of a potential situation:

Your Breloom has successfully gotten a kill, and your opponent brings in Roaring Moon. The Tera flying is pretty obvious here since you will be outsped, and Tera flying will resist mach punch, so you'll get revenge killed by acrobatics.

But you realize, you don't actually know if your opponent will commit to this plan. Are they actually Tera Flying? Or are they bluffing it? What if they don't use their Tera and you switch out for nothing? While it is likely that your opponent is going to Tera, there is no guarantee that it will happen, and if don't you are put at a severe tempo disadvantage. I wouldn't call this a 50/50 necessarily, because it is more likely the Tera is going to happen than not, so it's more like a 80/20, but the issue is that there is any semblance of chance that you can lose severe tempo due to the threat of an unknown. In any logical situation, a Breloom would check a Dark/Dragon, but in this case you might not. This makes this situation specifically dangerous due to Tera. And will swing the course of the game dramatically.

This specific example is definitely an extreme one, since again it's reasonable to assume that you will see the Tera Flying, but the issue I'm attempting to bring up is that these small prediction based decisions are placed each turn of the game which can swing relevant decisions. You gain an active disadvantage if you use your Tera before your opponent as they still can hold the looming threat of switching their typing, or bringing an adaptability nuke (or both) in front of you. If it were only a one turn 80/20, like the example above, it'd be one thing, but you're having to deal with 90/10 and 80/20 based predictions the entirety of the game until the trigger is pulled. There is always the question of "will I lose a relevant 1v1 due to a tera?" that is present each and every turn in a game.

2) There is potential for multiple types per Pokemon which causes false tempo

Some mons have pretty defined Tera types that they use. Annihilape usually runs Water, Chien-Pao likes to run Dark, Valiant likes to run Fairy. However, this will not always be the case. Annihilape could be Fire, Chien-Pao could be Ice, Valiant could be running some off meta choice such as Ghost.

While the issue is not necessarily the powerlevel of these choices, it's (like up above) the "false tempo" that is gained from the threat of the unknown. How are you supposed to know that Annihilape is Water or Fire? Sure, most of the time it's going to be Water, but what if you try to Will-o-Wisp it and it turns out being Fire? You just lost a turn of tempo to no fault of your own (in fact likely making the correct play).

Some mons even run multiple types effectively. Chi-Yu is commonly seen with both of its typings and even Fairy or Grass, Roaring Moon can be Steel, Dark, or Flying, Espathra can be Fighting or Fairy. While there are more common choices, there is no guarantee that you are correct until the trigger is pulled. While you can oftentimes deduce which Tera the Pokemon is based upon moveset, much like scouting items, sometimes there is no realistic way to do so, such as if a set has not been revealed to you, or the set is the same regardless of the chosen Tera (such as Chi-Yu).

Now what do I like about Tera?...

Tera opens the meta to interesting new movesets, and extends the reach of Pokemon versatility

Tera as a mechanic allows for some incredible moments, and makes Pokemon such a skill expressive game when it comes to the team builder. You get some new Gen 9 specific toys such as Acrobatics Roaring Moon, EKiller Dnite, Fairy Unaware Wall Skeledirge, Bulky Fairy/Water Garganacl, Grass Iron Moth etc. All of these are very interesting applications of the mechanic which allow for Pokemon to truly be at their maximum potential, and allows for making your team more versatile in the builder. Also, due to Tera Blast specific Pokemon essentially gain access to Hidden Power if they so choose to opt into it.

I think this is integral to Generation 9, and is the part of Tera which I would love to see stay (if not all of it). I think removing this from the game is disingenuous, and unless dire, should be highly considered to stay.

So... what do?

Here is my proposed solution, albeit a bit complicated:

On Team Preview, each player selects which Pokemon they intend to Terastallize. This is done at team preview to allow for adjustments. As an example I could choose if I wanted to Tera my Skeledirge to Fairy, or I could choose to do my Roaring Moon to Flying. But I only get one.

After Both players select, the Pokemon which will be Terastallizing are revealed to the opponent, in addition to their type which they will be Terastallizing into.

Once this Pokemon is set into the game, if the Pokemon selects a move (so doesn't switch out) they MUST use their Terastallization. This prevents any Tera mindgames, and the Pokemon's type is always predictable to your opponent. There are no more 50/50 guessworks.

I think this 3 step process, while complicated, does a few things

1) Not showing ALL Tera types in the preview limits set scouting

2) Forcing Tera on the first available turn, in addition to knowing which type it will be, prevents guesswork from either side

3) We can keep novel movesets, and teambuilding is versatile

4) You can react to your opponent's team to make a more informed choice on what to Tera

I'd love to hear what others have to think about this, it is a bit complicated, but I think it keeps the spirit of allowing the expressiveness of Tera, while not sacrificing competitiveness through set scouting, or uncomfortable unwanted guesswork.

 

[Smashburn]

I'm sorry TPP I'm breaking my silence.

This is a pretty poor argument (and actually, I'd argue a strawman) on what Smogon does as a whole.

Smogon's goal is to make competitive tiers. Smogon's goal does not quantify "fun" into the equation of competitive. You could argue that mechanics such as Terrastalizing make for interesting and even innovative matchups. The issue is, there are also negative aspects to Terrastilizing and other things that we have banned in the past that, even though they may be fun, are extremely uncompetitive. Dynamax was a fun meta - when you weren't the one getting snowballed on. Allowing Dynamax would have been severely damaging to the Gen 8 metagame even if you feel that Gen 8 was "boring" without it. In spite of the absence of Dynamax, the meta moved on and found different and creative ways to play the game.

tl;dr - Regardless on your stance, incorporating "fun" into your argument will not have you taken seriously by anyone here. Smogon strives to be competitive. Fun is not a factor of this. If you don't believe me, see for yourself on Smogon Philosophy.View attachment 473020

YES FOR THE LOVE OF GOD SOMEONE ELSE SAID IT THANK YOU

Aside from that, am I the only one publicly concerned with how Finchinator and the tiering administration have been handling this situation? For the most part I enjoyed what they did in SwSh, but the recent decision making and public statements have had me losing faith in / questioning their decision making to some degree. I could just be in the dark a little bit, but their thought process for things like incorporating "fun" into tiering and not referencing Smogon tiering policy and cartridge / producer limitations has been far from transparent.

 

[Skyuchi]

Fun is just a buzzword when you can't actually think of any real reasons as to why the metagame is good, don't use it.
Either way, being amused or entertained with something and being competitive are not the same thing.

 

[awyp]

I'm sorry TPP I'm breaking my silence.

This is a pretty poor argument (and actually, I'd argue a strawman) on what Smogon does as a whole.

Smogon's goal is to make competitive tiers. Smogon's goal does not quantify "fun" into the equation of competitive. You could argue that mechanics such as Terrastalizing make for interesting and even innovative matchups. The issue is, there are also negative aspects to Terrastilizing and other things that we have banned in the past that, even though they may be fun, are extremely uncompetitive. Dynamax was a fun meta - when you weren't the one getting snowballed on. Allowing Dynamax would have been severely damaging to the Gen 8 metagame even if you feel that Gen 8 was "boring" without it. In spite of the absence of Dynamax, the meta moved on and found different and creative ways to play the game.

tl;dr - Regardless on your stance, incorporating "fun" into your argument will not have you taken seriously by anyone here. Smogon strives to be competitive. Fun is not a factor of this. If you don't believe me, see for yourself on Smogon Philosophy.View attachment 473020

Exactly there is no goal of Smogon to be "fun". I've been part of this site for a long time where we never idolized "fun". It's always about having a competitive metagame where the mechanics, moves, and Pokemons are "fair" from a competitive standpoint. It doesn't matter if there's literally 10 Pokémon in OU that everyone is using, if you WIN that's all that matters. There's no need to have diversity and it can be boring but that has nothing to do with competitive nature. FFS Gen 8 Ubers revolved around 3 Pokémon (Eternatus, Necrozma-Dusk Mane, and Yveltal) + 3 other Pokémon, THERES NO DIVERSITY AT ALL. You can call Tera fun all you want but I think it's broken which removes itself from being competitive in nature.

 

[Karxrida]

I honestly think downplaying fun's influence from the equation is impossible or at least ridiculously misguided. Most people here don't exactly participate in tournaments for the glory and stick to the ladder, so why play? Many people, on some level, are here because they enjoy being here. Or at least I'd hope so. We're all Pokémon fans. Hell, the banning of shit like evasion is partially fueled by how unfun it is to deal with.

Like fun should not be the primary goal when trying to make a balanced metagame, especially when the concept is so nebulous and subjective, but ignoring it is a great way to make a game sterile as hell.

 

[tinyranitar]

In my honest opinion, you cannot exclude "fun" from a game. People play games in the first place because it's fun, and it's exactly because it's fun that people take it seriously. If "fun" was a non-factor, there was no reason for other tiers than OU to exist. They exist so that you can play your favorite Pokemon in a group of Pokemon with similar power level.

Now I understand that it shouldn't be the focal of balancing, as "fun" is entirely subjective. What is fun to some might be unfun to others. However, humans aren't rigid machine and a degree of "fun" NEEDS to be considered. A sterile solved meta where everyone runs the same variations of 3 teams isn't fun.

 

[Joseph Gomes]

In my honest opinion, you cannot exclude "fun" from a game. People play games in the first place because it's fun, and it's exactly because it's fun that people take it seriously. If "fun" was a non-factor, there was no reason for other tiers than OU to exist. They exist so that you can play your favorite Pokemon in a group of Pokemon with similar power level.

Now I understand that it shouldn't be the focal of balancing, as "fun" is entirely subjective. What is fun to some might be unfun to others. However, humans aren't rigid machine and a degree of "fun" NEEDS to be considered. A sterile solved meta where everyone runs the same variations of 3 teams isn't fun.

Competitive games are plenty fun. A lot of people find Assist + Revival Blessing fun in Natdex AG. Haha now I can revive all my dead mons, cheese! But that is uncompetitive and not fun for others. Fun is something that's very subjective. However you can set guidelines for what can be considered competitive.

A sterile solved meta where everyone runs the same variations of 3 teams isn't fun.

A meta tha prioritizes fun over competitiveness would unironically suck out balance and lead to over-centralization. Natdex AG is more fun than OU, and its far more centralized with less viable mons available, because certain archetypes dominate and killed other playstyles.

 

[RoyalDispenser]

This feels like an argument not worth having, at least not here.

I feel like this needs a bump before fun becomes a white listed word lol... I at least ignored the edit response.

___

...but I have to throw one last thing, if you guys don't find smogon's rulesets fun why the fuck are you playing it?

If you're nonchalantly playing showdown without any climb intent, and you don't like the rules, you can play those games on cart or in customs and find partners to battle via discord or showdown chat. If you're focused on competitive ladder climbing then the only thing that'll be fun is either something that inflates your elo (tera d-nite abusers smh) or a game that's actually GGWP instead of "FF" after 12 turns.

Smogon doesn't need to make the game 'fun', they have to make it balanced. That's how it was and always should be. Fun is very subjective and if you ain't having it without smogon rules, then play by the rules, if you don't like the rules maybe competitive battling isn't for you. Artificially creating 'fun' is gamefreak's intent, not ours.

 

[alephgalactus]

You think VGC is uncompetitive?

I do, actually. We went over this a few pages back. Didn’t exactly end well for anyone involved. Let’s move on.

 

[Colonel M]

So to change the topic ? Why isn’t slowking used more considering it’s the only slow regenerator pivot in the game. Are the dark types at the top that threatening ?

Better suited to here - but to answer the question, yes. Chi Yu and Chien Pao are very common on a lot of teams, and then there are other mons like Roaring Moon or Kingambit that also hang around. Gholdengo and Annihilape don't really help Slowking either IMO.

Without Scald there isn't a lot that Slowking can often do to threaten these Pokemon, so they potentially get free setup or click their STABs. It doesn't help that a lot of teams have to rely on Terra Fairy early if they're very desperate for a Dark resist or want to capitalize on their bulk (Nacl for example).

 

[taziathegreat]

Oh shit my fault I’m in the wrong topic.

 

[tinyranitar]

A meta tha prioritizes fun over competitiveness would unironically suck out balance and lead to over-centralization. Natdex AG is more fun than OU, and its far more centralized with less viable mons available, because certain archetypes dominate and killed other playstyles.

My intention isn't talking about AG as fun, because like you mentioned fun is entirely subjective. Less is more or so they say, because when super OP strats is available everyone naturally gravitate toward those OP strat.

What I am saying is that a "solved" meta, as in everyone knowing what's optimal, does the same thing because it would otherwise be purposefully harming yourself. And I think that personally, an unsolved meta with (some controlled) unpredictablity, wildly different game outcome and play completely differently is extremely fun AND competitive, and that's what I think Terastelization bring to the table. I don't think it's out of the question to say that more broken stuff was allowed in OU before.

 

[alephgalactus]

Chi Yu and Chien Pao
Roaring Moon
Annihilape

Those are also fantastic Tera users, which is a great way to segue back into the thing the thread is about! Given the results from the tiering survey, it seems that the general consensus among players who know what they’re doing is that at least some action should be taken. Does anyone who met the “qualified” criteria in the survey want to post some replays showcasing how you believe Tera is affecting the meta, positively or negatively? I feel like seeing good players break down their high-level replays would give everyone a lot more information to work with, so we can all have a more well-informed and nuanced debate about the mechanic.

 

[Bold School]

It looks like we are headed towards restriction rather than a clean ban or no ban. I'm ok with this because I want to see us at least try. But this probably means we are going to have multiple suspects because Tera is a much more complicated mechanic than it first appears.

There are just many aspects to it. You address one thing and then some other things remain unchecked. We have to as a community decide what we really care about. And since there appears to be little general consensus, it's going to take a long time to figure that out if we do at all. I wouldn't be surprised if it gets banned outright after a second suspect just because we as a community can't make up our minds properly or try the wrong solutions or combination of solutions.

To be blunt, I think most of the proposed solutions are barking up the wrong tree. And I'm a bit dismayed that STAB only Tera had many more votes than non-STAB only Tera. If you ever get to the point where it's just STAB only Tea, you might as well just ban the mechanic entirely. But I digress. Even of the couple solutions I sort of like, any one of them alone still wouldn't really fix Tera because it is a multi-faceted problem.

So where does this leave us? One suspect won't fix the problem. At least I don't think so. And then it's a question of how many suspects the Council is willing to put us through until they just get tired of it and we ban it outright. I would put the over/under at 2 since Finch at least said they might be willing to have multiple suspects to get it right. But at some point, there is a limit to that. Can the Smogon community come to enough of a consensus and come up with the right combination of solutions before that happens? I don't know.

 

[Ctann]

Question for you all..

in the hypothetical that Tera was not banned, that means: no action taken

logically this would lead to many of the best Tera abusers being banned, such as espathra, etc

when more Pokémon get released, we would probably expect a lot more banned, like Kartana.

is there an issue if this is the case? I.e. a ban list with 20+ Pokémon that would otherwise be completely viable in OU, as opposed to the usual 1-5 or so.

is that really so bad?

 

[DeviousJinjo]

Question for you all..

in the hypothetical that Tera was not banned, that means: no action taken

logically this would lead to many of the best Tera abusers being banned, such as espathra, etc

when more Pokémon get released, we would probably expect a lot more banned, like Kartana.

is there an issue if this is the case? I.e. a ban list with 20+ Pokémon that would otherwise be completely viable in OU, as opposed to the usual 1-5 or so.

is that really so bad?

I would say "not really" though it may lead to the creation of another tier or something. If there is a singular mechanic pushing all of those Pokemon over the edge though, then it's a problem with the mechanic, and that's what Smogon would ban based on historical tiering practices.

 

[flamewizzy21]

Pokemon is a game, not a job. And players are the life blood of the community. We aren’t sponsored by Nike to play pokemon as olympic athletes. Smogon only exists because players WANT to play under Smogon rules in their spare time. We all have a mutual interest in growing this community, and so it’s critical that the ruleset remain desirable (ie fun to play). Yes, fun is an abstract and subjective concept, but that does not justify removing it from the conversation.

As far as Smogon goes, I would boil down the main features that make a metagame fun to: 1) agency (player choices matter) and 2) diversity (multiple strategies work). Monopoly is boring because you have no agency when the RNG has more influence than you. Tic-tac-toe is boring because there is no diversity—you know exactly how a game will play out before it starts. Both are important.

Tera provides a ton of diversity because it opens up many unique new strats. But Tera risks player agency if it is not predictable enough, where your choices may feel less impactful when your opponent can pull out a trump card seemingly from nowhere and win the game. This balance of how you value diversity vs agency is different for everyone, and is exactly why the OU tiering surveys are basically split down the middle.

 

[BolTingBlazie]

I would say "not really" though it may lead to the creation of another tier or something. If there is a singular mechanic pushing all of those Pokemon over the edge though, then it's a problem with the mechanic, and that's what Smogon would ban based on historical tiering practices.

I would have gotten to that same point and I can name a bunch of potential pokemon home additions that are very likely to be problematic once home drops due to tera that are likely going to stick in OU. (Not listing Magearna, Enamorus-I, the Urshifus, or Spectrier because they are likely gonna be banned almost immediately.)

Pokemon that will likely be problematic due to tera:
Regieleki (Becomes impossible to wall.)
Tornadus-T (Electric teratype Torn-T with tera blast sounds stupid honestly, since it can actually beat Zapdos, and can trade its flying weaknesses to a ground weakness making it harder to kill.)
Landorus-T (Makes lando better at everything basically.)
Sneasler (Psychic tera type lets it beat its walls lol.)'
Ursaluna (Tera normal guts facade is something that even tusk and melm would envy the power of.)
Basculegion (Tera ghost/tera water adaptability sounds stupid, same goes with its sweeping capabilities in swift swim.)


That is a pretty sizable list honestly, and these pokemon may end up causing us some problems down the road even if we restrict tera.

 

[ayevon]

Pokemon is a game, not a job. And players are the life blood of the community. We aren’t sponsored by Nike to play pokemon as olympic athletes. Smogon only exists because players WANT to play under Smogon rules in their spare time. We all have a mutual interest in growing this community, and so it’s critical that the ruleset remain desirable (ie fun to play). Yes, fun is an abstract and subjective concept, but that does not justify removing it from the conversation.

As far as Smogon goes, I would boil down the main features that make a metagame fun to: 1) agency (player choices matter) and 2) diversity (multiple strategies work). Monopoly is boring because you have no agency when the RNG has more influence than you. Tic-tac-toe is boring because there is no diversity—you know exactly how a game will play out before it starts. Both are important.

Tera provides a ton of diversity because it opens up many unique new strats. But Tera risks player agency if it is not predictable enough, where your choices may feel less impactful when your opponent can pull out a trump card seemingly from nowhere and win the game. This balance of how you value diversity vs agency is different for everyone, and is exactly why the OU tiering surveys are basically split down the middle.

The idea that Tera inherently promotes diversity seems more like theory than how actually works in practice. There's only a handful of pokemon that can deal with threats like Tera Roaring Moon, Tera Chien Pao, Tera Dragonite, Tera Volcarona etc.

 

[flamewizzy21]

The idea that Tera inherently promotes diversity seems more like theory than how actually works in practice. There's only a handful of pokemon that can deal with threats like Tera Roaring Moon, Tera Chien Pao, Tera Dragonite, Tera Volcarona etc.

We have yet to see the meta settle. So far, people have been trying a variety of tera types on different pokemon, which does promote diversity. Once things settle down, tera types will be much more predictable, and easier to play around because you know what is coming. That’s when things like Normal-Dragonite and Water-Annihilape lose their surprise factor, and lead to fewer surprise Tera sweeps. When experimentation dies down a bit, Tera will both provide less diversity but also be less threatening to player agency. Basically, it is premature to take any tiering action before we see more.

 

[ayevon]

We have yet to see the meta settle. So far, people have been trying a variety of tera types on different pokemon, which does promote diversity. Once things settle down, tera types will be much more predictable, and easier to play around because you know what is coming. That’s when things like Normal-Dragonite and Water-Annihilape lose their surprise factor, and lead to fewer surprise Tera sweeps. When experimentation dies down a bit, Tera will both provide less diversity but also be less threatening to player agency. Basically, it is premature to take any tiering action before we see more.

The problem isn't as much as "surprise" Tera sweeps, it's that typing is fundamental in counterplay. No one should be surprised by Tera Fairy Roaring Moon, but trying to handle it and Tera Flying Roaring Moon both in a game and in the builder is incredibly daunting. The pool of pokemon will tighten around those who do, and that will kill diversity.

 

[alephgalactus]

We have yet to see the meta settle. So far, people have been trying a variety of tera types on different pokemon, which does promote diversity. Once things settle down, tera types will be much more predictable, and easier to play around because you know what is coming. That’s when things like Normal-Dragonite and Water-Annihilape lose their surprise factor, and lead to fewer surprise Tera sweeps. When experimentation dies down a bit, Tera will both provide less diversity but also be less threatening to player agency. Basically, it is premature to take any tiering action before we see more.

Everyone saying “b-but we have to let the meta settle” don’t realize that the meta will not settle if nothing is done about Tera. We’ll be in a literally constant state of suspects, quickbans, and retests for the entirety of the generation. Any tiering action besides an outright ban is “letting the Tera meta settle” because unrestrained Tera is not healthy and even TPCI seems to know that.

And Normal Dragonite never had any surprise factor; that’s been the standard set since day 1. Hell, it was a point of discussion before Dragonite was even confirmed to be in the game (especially among those who play OMs, where banning Dragonite because it gets good STAB is a tradition at this point). You’re gravely insulting the collective intelligence of the community if you believe that even a single competent player was ever surprised to see Normal Dragonite. This is why I think that “show Tera on team preview” won’t solve any of the actual issues that higher-level players are having with Tera right now—if you see a Dragonite or an Annihilape or a Dragapult, any reasonable person can deduce what Tera type they’re running, but they still won’t be able to do jack shit about it.

 

[Vengeance417]

I'm honestly concerned about how this is all playing out. A consensus on what to do with Terastallization seems impossible to formulate at this time, with a ton of nasty vitriol being thrown around in this thread. It seems like a lose-lose-lose-lose situation for the council since no matter what result ends up getting the most votes in future surveys and suspect tests, which will likely just narrowly win against the other options, a vast majority of the community will end up being unhappy with the decision, which will lead to further toxicity down the line. A "correct answer" doesn't exist, and that worries me.

Regardless, can you guys be nice to each other, please and thank you?

In regards to my own opinion about Tera, it's almost similar to how I felt about Dynamax last gen but obviously not as extreme; the best users of the mechanic are going to be the ones to make Tera go over the edge, and with what's coming with the Home update, I don't have my hopes up in regards to a balanced metagame being possible with Tera being left as is. Even in the current meta, a lot of strong Tera abusers like Dragonite, Chien-Pao, Chi-Yu, etc are choke-holding teambuilding in ways we haven't seen before. Something needs to be done, but the problem is that we can't come up with a consistent solution. I feel it's eventually just going to boil down to "keep Tera or just remove it".