Metagame Terastallization Tiering Discussion [ UPDATE POST #1293]

[TrueScotsman]

It DOES make it crazy, though. Please go into the calculator and do the math yourself to check it out.
Roaring Moon becomes an unstoppable wallbreaker with its base 139 attack. There are plenty of other things that hit even harder, or things that hit almost as hard and still do the job.
Let's take Brute Bonnet just to be absolutely hilarious about this.
252+ Atk Choice Band Brute Bonnet Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 198-234 (49.5 - 58.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
And yes, it DOES outspeed Corviknight if it invests and Corviknight doesn't. And Corviknight would no longer even be able to tera Fighting/Fairy to resist and threaten to KO with Body Press.

No, it does not make it crazy. 2HKO on Corv isn't something new or special.For example:
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 204-241 (51 - 60.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
You don't even need Terra to do this in past gens.
Corv doesn't need to be able to wall every Mon in the game for the meta to be balanced.

 

[Pluim]

The designers of the game made the decision to remove the in-hardware team lock. Therefore the designers of Tera were aware that the official in-person tournaments would use open team sheets while they were designing the mechanic. This means we can be nearly certain that Tera was designed competitively with open team sheets in mind.

That’s the bottom line. It’s not an argument of whether we should mimic vgc, it’s that we should view the mechanic in the competitive context that it was designed to be used within.

If the tera was designed with team sheets in mind, are we also going to mention that countless other things were too, like item clause or setting pokemon to level 50? Maybe they also had impacts.

I don't see where or how you are linking removing lock on battle teams to tera when they were likely made by different teams. (other features of the box were seemingly removed for no reason so it could have just been apart of that.)

And not to mention that tera wasn't specifically balanced even if team sheets were designed around. After all there have been some weird choices on their end about balancing. Your argument is very thin and relies on guessing intentions of developers on balancing.

 

[Bugboy]

Not entirely true, you do not see Tera Types on preview when laddering online this rule is only for in-game events.

This is correct, but I would argue that the in-person tournament circuit is the far more official interpretation of the mechanic for competitive use. The ladder is meaningless and largely “for fun”. They often did ridiculous formats on ladder that would likely not happen in official tournaments during the swsh ladder.

 

[alephgalactus]

Currently, by the survey, Pro-ban/Restrict has a slim 62% difference. This would lead to restriction, and would make Anti-ban, who has the majority in the survey, the last choice.

62% is the majority. The “No Action” camp does not have a majority.

 

[Skyuchi]

No, it does not make it crazy. 2HKO on Corv isn't something new or special.For example:
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 204-241 (51 - 60.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
You don't even need Terra to do this in past gens.
Corv doesn't need to be able to wall every Mon in the game for the meta to be balanced.

You're missing the point entirely. You're able to take Pokemon that have no business 2HKOing a defensive wall, and giving them the ability to 2HKO one. That was my reasoning for taking Brute Bonnet. There is no reason something that bulky with Spore should be able to break a defensive wall.
If what shouldn't be able to break a wall whatsoever becomes able to, then what IS able to break a wall becomes outright banworthy.

 

[Bugboy]

If the tera was designed with team sheets in mind, are we also going to mention that countless other things were too, like item clause or setting pokemon to level 50? Maybe they also had impacts.

we have generations of precedent to back up the idea of competitive balance with level 100 and no item clause. We do not have these precedents for Tera.

I don't see where or how you are linking removing lock on battle teams to tera when they were likely made by different teams. (other features of the box were seemingly removed for no reason so it could have just been apart of that.)

And not to mention that tera wasn't specifically balanced even if team sheets were designed around. After all there have been some weird choices on their end about balancing. Your argument is very thin and relies on guessing intentions of developers on balancing.

saying that the balance team was not aware that tournaments would be open team sheets sounds far more conspiratorial than the opposite.

 

[Pluim]

This is correct, but I would argue that the in-person tournament circuit is the far more official interpretation of the mechanic for competitive use. The ladder is meaningless and largely “for fun”. They often did ridiculous formats on ladder that would likely not happen in official tournaments during the swsh ladder.

Fair point, but they did make a casual and competitive mode for online, each already having different rulesets (restrictions) so they could have easily added previews to competitive if that truly was the intention.

 

[Pluim]

we have generations of precedent to back up the idea of competitive balance with level 100 and no item clause. We do not have these precedents for Tera.



saying that the balance team was not aware that tournaments would be open team sheets sounds far more conspiratorial than the opposite.

I'm not saying they are unaware I just pointed out that they were different teams. I also highly doubt that that really influenced much on tera's end. It would also have to be developed after team sheets were decided. My point is, you are relying on a dodgy argument that is assuming many things including developer intention, reasons for locked box removal, and not adding team sheets to online ranked mode, when it likely changed nothing in regards to the development of tera, and is purely mind numbing.

Will try not to spam too many more posts

 

[awyp]

I really feel for the tiering staff for the unenviable task of trying to approach Terastallization balance. It is IMO, the most difficult mechanic we've ever had to seriously reckon with as a community. I remember Drizzle + Swift Swim ban being a huge deal back in the day and it feels so much more quaint by comparison.

I also feel for the playerbase (new and old) trying to hold onto a mechanic that is simultaneously legitimately really fun and thrilling, but also incredibly overwhelming.

I'm sure we'll get to a satisfactory decision eventually, though.

Agreed I feel like the OU council is doing a great. We're approaching on almost a month of the Gen 9 OU metagame being out and when it comes to all the quickbans, viability chart, surveys, and just overall transparency (I think the choices have been great). I feel that a well thought decision will come out on when and how to approach Tera when it comes to suspect testing.

This is correct, but I would argue that the in-person tournament circuit is the far more official interpretation of the mechanic for competitive use. The ladder is meaningless and largely “for fun”. They often did ridiculous formats on ladder that would likely not happen in official tournaments during the swsh ladder.

Yeah I feel like the No Johns SV OU tournament has been a good visualization and proof on how the metagame is developing including how players are feeling about Tera and on ways to combat some Pokémon / Tera combos players find annoying. The ladder is great as well, and I wouldn't describe it as meaningless but depending on the level being played and if it's purely for testing it would be hard to grab conclusive interpretation on how the mechanic is being used / evolving.

 

[Bold School]

saying that the balance team was not aware that tournaments would be open team sheets sounds far more conspiratorial than the opposite.

Balance team? GF and balance? Are you sure you aren't giving GF entirely too much credit here? I sort of agree with your general sentiments to a point, but I wouldn't consider GF a company that was good at or ever really heavily considered balance. They seem to keep trying to break gens. A lot of their design decisions going back many gens don't make sense from any sort of balance standpoint.

 

[TrueScotsman]

You're missing the point entirely. You're able to take Pokemon that have no business 2HKOing a defensive wall, and giving them the ability to 2HKO one. That was my reasoning for taking Brute Bonnet. There is no reason something that bulky with Spore should be able to break a defensive wall.
If what shouldn't be able to break a wall whatsoever becomes able to, then what IS able to break a wall becomes outright banworthy.

No, you are wrong. They are both physical attackers with a choice band 2HKOing Corv after Rocks. The fact one gets spore does indeed make it better than one without it. However Breloom has more attack and more speed than Brute Bonnet and can also 2HKO Corv with a banded set. You don't even need to run adamant Nature to 2HKO Corv and Breloom gets Spore.
252 Atk Choice Band Breloom Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 204-241 (51 - 60.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

 

[Bugboy]

Balance team? GF and balance? Are you sure you aren't giving GF entirely too much credit here? I sort of agree with your general sentiments to a point, but I wouldn't consider GF a company that was good at or ever really heavily considered balance. They seem to keep trying to break gens. A lot of their design decisions going back many gens don't make sense from any sort of balance standpoint.

Haha well, yeah. Whether they make good decisions or not is beside my point though, all that matters is the fact that the “balance team” exists and likely planned the mechanic with open team sheet tournaments in mind.

like why are we defaulting to buffing the mechanic to be even stronger than even Gamefreak planned it to be? What’s the point?

 

[Skyuchi]

No, you are wrong. They are both physical attackers with a choice band 2HKOing Corv after Rocks. The fact one gets spore does indeed make it better than one without it. However Breloom has more attack and more speed than Brute Bonnet and can also 2HKO Corv with a banded set. You don't even need to run adamant Nature to 2HKO Corv and Breloom gets Spore.
252 Atk Choice Band Breloom Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 204-241 (51 - 60.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

....And one is using a 120bp move, while the other is using 80.
You know what Tera does for Breloom? It does 75% MINIMUM to Corviknight.
Do you realize you're advocating for a metagame where the absolute slowest speed is bulky offense?

 

[TrueScotsman]

....And one is using a 120bp move, while the other is using 80.
You know what Tera does for Breloom? It does 75% MINIMUM to Corviknight.
Do you realize you're advocating for a metagame where the absolute slowest speed is bulky offense?

Idk maybe try calcing with a Def Mon that resists the move instead of taking a neutral hit? I have no idea why you are obsessed with Corv.

 

[Wolf-X]

Honestly, knowing many people would prefer a meta with Stab-Only Tera over No Tera at all is completely baffling.
Like, what's the point? It's not the Tera mech anymore, it's boring af and it wouldn't even add anything interesting to the game.

I'm Pro-Tera, but this is legit the worst possible outcome.

100% Agree

 

[Skyuchi]

Idk maybe try calcing with a Def Mon that resists the move instead of taking a neutral hit? I have no idea why you are obsessed with Corv.

It seems you have a fundamental lack of understanding as to how the whole defensive core vs wallbreaker mechanic functions.
Do you think Palafin should be unbanned as well?

 

[TrueScotsman]

It seems you have a fundamental lack of understanding as to how the whole defensive core vs wallbreaker mechanic functions.
Do you think Palafin should be unbanned as well?

I mean the difference is rather clear. Nothing walls the right BU Terra Palafin. Stuff does Wall these mons you say are Broken.

 

[Skyuchi]

I mean the difference is rather clear. Nothing walls the right BU Terra Palafin. Stuff does Wall these mons you say are Broken.

And what walls SD Breloom, exactly?

 

[TrueScotsman]

And what walls SD Breloom, exactly?

Gholdengo works well if you run a more support set.
112 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Breloom: 273-322 (104.1 - 122.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 189-225 (50 - 59.5%) -- approx. 2HKO

 

[Skyuchi]

Gholdengo works well if you run a more support set.
112 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Breloom: 273-322 (104.1 - 122.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 189-225 (50 - 59.5%) -- approx. 2HKO

You're not factoring in Tera Grass for additional damage - which you should, because you're advocating for STAB only Tera.
+2 252+ Atk Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 309-366 (81.7 - 96.8%) -- approx. 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 402-477 (106.3 - 126.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
And if your answer is Gholdengo, you're already reinforcing what I just said earlier - you're advocating for a metagame where Bulky Offense is the absolute slowest pace.

 

[BobKingOfSeagulls]

100% Agree

I'm also in agreement, a world where tera doesnt actually change the type of a monotype pokemon, and only removes a secondary typing for everyone else, is just a world without tera but with free adaptability.

 

[TrueScotsman]

You're not factoring in Tera Grass for additional damage - which you should, because you're advocating for STAB only Tera.
+2 252+ Atk Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 309-366 (81.7 - 96.8%) -- approx. 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 402-477 (106.3 - 126.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
And if your answer is Gholdengo, you're already reinforcing what I just said earlier - you're advocating for a metagame where Bulky Offense is the absolute slowest pace.

But you don't outspeed Gholdengo and it OHKO's Breloom and non banded +0 bullet seed doesn't do that much to Gholdengo.

 

[RedxThree]

The more we discuss this, the more it feels like Tera team preview is going to be our best bet of keeping it as a mechanic. We have to remember we’re trying to balance both Tera and the early meta as a whole, which has been stated repeatedly yet it hasn’t seemingly sunk in for some viewpoints. I don’t care to discuss how oppressive Gholdengo and Chi-Yu are in the current state as it pertains to Tera’s balance, cuz even in a non-Tera meta those two are still major threats; it does not further this convo.

What I would like to know is if I can devise some counterplay to Chi-Yu if I know beforehand which Tera it isn’t. If it’s Dark, I’ll plan my Chi-Yu response accordingly…instead of also needing to plan for the possibility of it being Tera Fire or Tera Grass in addition to its item and coverage simultaneously—and then do that for the five other mons I’m facing. If we’re going to combat Tera’s unpredictability, we do so by gaining information.

The early pro-Tera statement that the meta will develop and the common Tera types will rise to the top seems to have been correct: we are not weighing the possibility of 6-7 different types on each mon, it’s actually more like 1-3, and the types are specific to each mon. It’s worth bringing up Annihilape, a mon that was screaming through the tier before Rage Fist’s mechanics were correctly implemented on Showdown, is actually cooling off on the radar of the list of banworthy presences according to the surveys—and this is, again, with Tera fully available. I don’t mind playing passively around Annihilape as I wait for my opening, but it’d sure be nice to not have to guess right on Tera Water or Fairy to eliminate it when that chance arises, or else I lose a mon or more. Actually, the guesswork associated with each threat on that survey is majorly tied to each threat’s ability to dodge reasonable counterplay with the proper Tera.

I don’t think micromanaging STAB or non-STAB Tera should be entertained; we still want to foster creativity as the meta further changes and we lose that if we intentionally strangle it here and now. I don’t mind some of the other suggestions tho: trading an item slot for Tera/only one Tera per team, etc

 

[Skyuchi]

But you don't outspeed Gholdengo and it OHKO's Breloom and non banded +0 bullet seed doesn't do that much to Gholdengo.

I don't think this is a conversation worth continuing so I'm just going to not.
STAB only Tera is the absolute worst possible outcome.

 

[Mikegengsta]

The community seems about evenly split when it comes to tera being an ultimately good or bad mechanic, so a huge portion of the playerbase will be unhappy regardless of the action taken, that's because tera having so many positive and negative aspects means it practically impossible to reach a consensus on it.
One of the biggest arguments to keeping tera is how much diversity it adds to the teambuilder, adding potential for creativity when inventing new strategies and using pokemon that are hindered by their type/movepool, which is overall great but it's only adding on what's already existing in pokemon. To everyone that really wants to keep tera around, i have 2 questions, would you enjoy the game less if tera was outright banned? And do you enjoy the previous generations where tera doesn't exist?
Pokemon already has a lot of strategy and diversity in it, we don't NEED tera around to have those elements in a metagame, so i assume most people would still be able to enjoy the game if tera was banned. On the other hand, tera can go as far as ruining the game to that other big majority, i've seen a lot of people say that they would very easily quit gen 9 if tera stayed unrestricted.

I think tiering action on tera should be taken considering that there will always be a large portion of the playerbase unhappy with it, but the people who want to preserve it (probably)wouldn't be as negatively affected by it as the people who want it banned.

I would enjoy the meta less if tera was gone. May as well go back to SW/SH when stall at its highest and not worry about power creep