★ SV UU Suspect Process Round 6 - Fly Me To UU

[Monky25]

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Hey UU, we’ve got yet another suspect test in the DLC 2 metagame, featuring the Pokemon on everyone’s mind, Garchomp! After our tiering survey, justified via community feedback in our open mic thread, Garchomp received a 3.4 result, and that plus council support ultimately gave justification for a suspect test. For transparency, Latios got a result of 2.9, which is not only lower than Garchomp by a good margin, but it also doesn’t even qualify for tiering action alone. It will still be monitored of course, but just wanted to put that out there. Enough about Latios though, let’s talk about Garchomp! It’s no secret what Garchomp does, after all you’re running into it 50% of games on the ladder and nearing 70% of games on tours. It’s a phenomenal Pokemon, covering many building holes like a reliable hazard setter to support its team, being a Ground-type with Spikes at that, a punish to U-turn spam from Scizor and Lokix, and just an overall valuable defensive check to deadly threats like Zapdos, Iron Moth, and Iron Crown. However, as much good it provides to the metagame, there’s also very controversial elements that leave many community members requesting tiering action on the Pokemon.

Garchomp has two main sets that both give it grounds to be suspect tested. The lesser of the two, at least in the eyes of the UU council, is the tank set, often compressing dual hazards to provide key support to threats like Zapdos and Greninja while overwhelming common defensive Pokémon like Tinkaton, Metagross, and Toxapex. Its raw bulk and defensive profile often means it will be getting up multiple entry hazards in a game which can be difficult to handle in-game due to its support enabling the already dangerous offensive threats in the tier. This issue is further amplified when we’ve got a scarce source of hazard removal; only Excadrill and Mandibuzz are really common options to be used because everything else is just kinda bad, resulting in a greater emphasis on Heavy-Duty Boots teams which isn’t perfect with many threats like Tornadus-T, Azumarill, Tinkaton, and Lokix all carrying Knock Off. Garchomp also beats Excadrill unless very chipped, while Mandibuzz doesn’t like running Defog over U-turn or Toxic. While there are other hazard setters available in the metagame, none compare to Garchomp’s supportive capabilities at all, so entry hazard dynamics definitely change should Garchomp leave.

Meanwhile, the Swords Dance set has been discussed as equally problematic if not even more by ban advocates. Great bulk and an amazing offensive combo of Scale Shot to boost speed + EdgeQuake coverage means Garchomp is a dangerous sweeper that doesn’t have much stopping it from sweeping. Mandibuzz is the main check used in the tier, but it is also dedicated to stopping Garchomp entirely and even if chipped from a teammate can potentially lose. Other options like Rotom-Wash, Skeledirge, Hippowdon, and Slowking can stop it, but the first two have to Tera, Hippowdon gets 1v1d unless Scale Shot drop, and all Slowking can do is pray for Scald burns or pivot out into an offensive check. Speaking of offensive checks, we’ve got a good bit, which is why Swords Dance has fallen under the radar until now. Choice Scarfers like Mienshao, Terrakion, and Keldeo, priority from Lokix, Greninja, Azumarill, Scizor, Hisuian Arcanine, and Mamoswine, and miscellaneous revenge killing attempts like Embody Aspect Ogerpon and Booster Moth all do stop Garchomp. However, Garchomp often subverts a lot of these with Tera Steel as well as a high natural bulk, meaning you still have to carefully play around Garchomp and wear it down before being able to take it out. There are defensive checks like Bronzong, Galarian Weezing, and Wo-Chien that exist as well as usage of Air Balloon Fairy-types like Azumarill and Tinkaton, but the former 3 are super niche and resorting to niche mons to checking a dangerous threat is indicative of strained building, while Garchomp can also just wait in the back for a teammate to pop the Air Balloon. This is argued to produce an unhealthy dynamic on the tier, where apart from a select few options, it’s difficult to feel safe against Garchomp and teams end up forced into very similar cores.

However, Garchomp is not without flaws, it’s super controversial to be suspect tested after all. For starters, Garchomp is tasked with checking several threats on the team, so it’s not an immortal threat, meaning it doesn’t get too many chances to set hazards as it seems on paper. This also ties to Swords Dance sets, for using Garchomp’s natural defensive utility on teams against threats like Zapdos or Scizor means it’s now easier to be revenge killed. While it can Tera out of certain situations to avoid being revenge killed by priority, it still has to commit tera which can be awkward at times, not to mention a reactive Tera of your own can stop it. Also, certain elements like the Tank set being centralizing can arguably be considered invalid due to just the nature of the Gen with boots spam looking to a prevailing strategy. We’re seeing a rise of Pokemon like Enamorus and Mamoswine that match up well into Garchomp as well as moveset adaptations like Icy Wind Tornadus and Ice Beam Deoxys-Speed. Lastly, an aspect of Garchomp that everyone on council recognizes is that metagames aren’t tiered in a vacuum, with the goal ultimately to be to improve the tier, so there is a reasonable discussion to be had over whether Garchomp leaving the tier is more beneficial than it staying with how much it provides utility wise to the tier.

Ultimately, Garchomp is a very nuanced threat and one of the most contested Pokemon we’ve had this generation, especially in the DLC 2 metagame so far. Is Garchomp too overbearing for the tier, or is there reasonable counterplay that affirms this Pokémon to be balanced? The UU council has decided that it’s best to let the community decide, so here is the suspect!

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The voting requirements are a minimum GXE of 78 with at least 50 games played. In addition, you may play 1 less game for every 0.2 GXE you have above 78 GXE, down to a minimum of 30 games at a GXE of 82. As always, needing more than 50 games to 78 GXE is fine.

minimum games needed

GXE	minimum games
78	50
78.2	49
78.4	48
78.6	47
78.8	46
79	45
79.2	44
79.4	43
79.6	42
79.8	41
80	40
80.2	39
80.4	38
80.6	37
80.8	36
81	35
81.2	34
81.4	33
81.6	32
81.8	31
82	30

The test will operate as always. There will be no suspect ladder. Instead, the standard UU ladder will remain open. Those who wish to participate in this suspect test will instead use a fresh, suspect-specific alt. All games must be played on the Pokemon Showdown! UU ladder on a fresh alt with the following format: "UU6GS (Nick)." For example, I might register the alt UU6GS Monky to ladder with. You must meet the listed format in order to qualify.

Participants will have until Sunday, March 24th at 7:00 PM GMT -4 to meet voting requirements and post in the Alt Identification Thread. PLEASE DO NOT POST YOUR CONFIRMED SUSPECT RESULTS HERE - there is a dedicated thread for identifying your suspect results. Happy laddering!

 

[Lily]

This is an incredibly irrelevant announcement but I just remembered Fly Me To UU existed so I changed the suspect song to that and if you're mad about it that's a you problem

 

[Lyssa]

baby shark died for this

 

[Azulblade]

Rip chomp, he lasted longer than i thought he would

 

[amyayayy]

well written post but i disagree that gweezing is niche, you can fit it in a team just as fine

 

[Moutemoute]

well written post but i disagree that gweezing is niche, you can fit it in a team just as fine

0 argument nor example.
Weezing-Galar is in an odd place because while it's able to check SD Garchomp it's also super weak to many common threats such as Mold Breaker Excadrill, Latios, Tornadus-T thanks to Regenerator, Deoxys-D, Iron Crown, Iron Moth, Slowking and so on. It's definitively not an easy Pokemon to fit in and just because you're able to do so doesn't mean it's not niche af.

 

[amyayayy]

0 argument nor example.
Weezing-Galar is in an odd place because while it's able to check SD Garchomp it's also super weak to many common threats such as Mold Breaker Excadrill, Latios, Tornadus-T thanks to Regenerator, Deoxys-D, Iron Crown, Iron Moth, Slowking and so on. It's definitively not an easy Pokemon to fit in and just because you're able to do so doesn't mean it's not niche af.

my bad for not substantiating much. I genuinely think while it is weak to some v common threats, i dont think the weaknesses shine in a well balanced team. it provides value in defog and will-o-wisp consistently. it does very well against some really good physical threats like lokix, garchomp, sand rush excadrill (usually isn't running iron head), regular ogerpon and ogerpon cornerstone. It's no swiss knife that you can slot into any team, but i consistently want to put it in my teams. my point is that it is not a niche shitmon that you only want to play for garchomp

 

[Tree69420]

my bad for not substantiating much. I genuinely think while it is weak to some v common threats, i dont think the weaknesses shine in a well balanced team. it provides value in defog and will-o-wisp consistently. it does very well against some really good physical threats like lokix, garchomp, sand rush excadrill (usually isn't running iron head), regular ogerpon and ogerpon cornerstone. It's no swiss knife that you can slot into any team, but i consistently want to put it in my teams. my point is that it is not a niche shitmon that you only want to play for garchomp

Lokix continuously uturns on it and racks up rocks chip, rush exca literally always runs iron head what, cornerpon +2 cudgel goobs it
his ass is literally only on a team for garchomp and if it does anything else thats a bonus

 

[Catcus]

my bad for not substantiating much. I genuinely think while it is weak to some v common threats, i dont think the weaknesses shine in a well balanced team. it provides value in defog and will-o-wisp consistently. it does very well against some really good physical threats like lokix, garchomp, sand rush excadrill (usually isn't running iron head), regular ogerpon and ogerpon cornerstone. It's no swiss knife that you can slot into any team, but i consistently want to put it in my teams. my point is that it is not a niche shitmon that you only want to play for garchomp

I dont think ive ever seen a sand rush excadrill without iron head, so I dont know what you meant there, but gweezing's main issue is that despite Its decent Physical defending capability, its complete dead weight against almost all of the tiers special attackers. On top of that, Its only recovery is pain split. While gweezing can shine on a team that takes its issues into account, most teams would prefer mandibuzz as a physdef defoger due to its better special bulk and great matchups into most of the tier, even being a good anti chomp mon like gweezing, though gweezing is better against chomp

 

[WashedGamer]

Lokix continuously uturns on it and racks up rocks chip, rush exca literally always runs iron head what, cornerpon +2 cudgel goobs it
his ass is literally only on a team for garchomp and if it does anything else thats a bonus

i usually run mine with clear smog just to get rid of any boosts after wisp but like you said yeah its an unfortunate bonus

 

[Szark]

my bad for not substantiating much. I genuinely think while it is weak to some v common threats, i dont think the weaknesses shine in a well balanced team. it provides value in defog and will-o-wisp consistently. it does very well against some really good physical threats like lokix, garchomp, sand rush excadrill (usually isn't running iron head), regular ogerpon and ogerpon cornerstone. It's no swiss knife that you can slot into any team, but i consistently want to put it in my teams. my point is that it is not a niche shitmon that you only want to play for garchomp

With Grass Pon you always risk it switching in on your Defog or Pain Split and Encoring you and/or Knocking you off. The big issue with Geezing is that most physical threats in the tier have ways to deal with it or work around it. Knock Off makes it even more passive, U-Turn lets you chip it, Oger has Encore, Drill either Mold Breaker or Iron Head. Chomp himself can use Tera Fire to get around Wisp though its not as free as it used to be.

And then it just loses to all the special attackers. Latios (S-), Zapdos (A+), Torn (A+), Iron Crown (A), Iron Moth (A) are all significant issues for it.

You definitely can build a team with it that patches this issue but it is a major flaw of the mon. I definitely wouldnt build with if not for Chomp.

 

[Tree69420]

i usually run mine with clear smog just to get rid of any boosts after wisp but like you said yeah its an unfortunate bonus

when are you clear smogging rofl +2 tera rock cudgel just OHKOs you and non tera cudgel also does after 2 rocks switchins

 

[romanji]

wasn’t able to get off most of my thoughts on the thread, but will post here

Hazard stack Chomp has never really been an issue for me personally. Considering Mandibuzz is everywhere and there is boots spam is becoming more and more common, it doesn’t feel like once Garchomp gets hazards up, they’re never gonna come off. What the real problem is Swords Dance. SD turns Garchomp is one of the scariest mons to face in the tier at the moments. Now that people finally realized that you can’t just slap a hazard and started running Stone Edge, its threat level has skyrocketed more than it already has. There are only really a handful of mons that can somewhat check it.


Mandibuzz is the best defensive check for Garchomp, but once it reveals Tera Fairy, it won’t be able to OHKO with Foul Play, guaranteeing a kill with Stone Edge or Scale Shot if chipped slightly more after Rough Skin.
+4 252 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tera Fairy Garchomp: 242-285 (67.7 - 79.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+4 252 Atk Garchomp Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Mandibuzz: 458-540 (108.2 - 127.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+4 252 Atk Garchomp Scale Shot (4 hits) vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Mandibuzz: 348-412 (82.2 - 97.3%) -- approx. 68.8% chance to OHKO (from 88)


Tera Skeledirge can pretty easily handle Garchomp, since it’s not 2HKOed by. Tera Fire Garchomp sets can eventually waste Slack Off PP since it can’t click Hex without getting letting itself get worn down.


Azumarill (and to a much lesser extent Tinkaton) can handle Garchomp, but it is also tasked with handling Greninja and Latios, so it often won’t always have the balloon intact, leaving it vulnerable to getting OHKOed by +2 Earthquake.

(icy wind)
This requires pivoting around with a fairy type teammate like Tinkaton. This replay from UUPL shows off how right here.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9uu-753402

This is often very unreliable, as it can be played around when you predict around and click Scale Shot on the switch, getting nuked in the process.


While these are all good Pokemon in their own regards, and pretty great at revenge killing +1 Garchomp, they can be handled in their own ways. Lokix thuds into Protect variants, Mienshao can’t KO Tera Fairy Chomp from 66, both Iron Crown and Moth have to play around Tera Steel, and Ogerpon can’t come in on half of Garchomp’s moves without taking significant damage, likely also having to Terastalize itself to revenge kill it.

Garchomp is also very efficient at forcing reactive Teras to Fairy/Steel from Zapdos and Latios, allowing threats like Iron Moth to truly break through nearly every team. That is part of the root in why it feels like current gen games are so short. They are often teams just trying to “out-offense” each other in order to not lose faster, and why many, including myself, feel like banning Garchomp is the next step to fixing up the meta.

 

[Colin]

I'm new to uu but I got reqs, so now I get to vote and show my lack of opinion. This is anecdotal and I've not played in UU tournaments, but Garchomp is the single most demanding Pokemon in the tier from a builder aspect, but because of this its merely just good at making progress for itself since everyone preps for it. Other threats such as Latios, Iron Crown, and many of the A through B+ tier threats either have more dangerous set versatility in the breaking department besides Tera and maybe a 4th move change, or are more likely to go under the radar and encounter teams weaker to them since they are less universal. Garchomp is also frequently tasked with taking hits from Zapdos and other stuff, so won't as easily be healthy enough to both set up and survive priority or faster scarfers, even with tera. I'm not sure if Garchomp existing makes threats easier to check through role compression, or harder to check because its so demanding. Garchomp needs both offensive speed control and somewhat difficult to fit defensive counterplay vs it, and ways to offensively pressure it so its harder for it to do whatever it wants.

I think Tankchomp is very good, but if you can't prevent it from clicking spikes w/o major chip or exploit that turn, you probably have similar issues preventing SD chomp from just clicking SD and tera at full hp endgame. Removal is also pretty decent if you need to fit it, although Excadrill won't work until Garchomp is low, unless it teras to break through. While Garchomp is the best at stacking hazards especially midgame, its not the only Pokemon that can do it. Offensive Rocks or offensive Spikes Chomp is also good imo, so you can fit Stone Edge to beat Zapdos while still being good at setting your hazard. I think either SD Chomp is broken, or Garchomp isn't broken though. I'm not sure due to my limited UU experience. I'll probably follow whatever consensus more experienced players have.

 

[Mossy Sandwich]

Hey, I've already put a good amount of thoughts on Chomp in the open mic thread, so I'll just link my post here real quick: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/uu-open-mic-sharks.3738397/#post-10026821

I've decided to vote DNB on Garchomp because I think the value it brings to the tier is too much to let it go and I also think it's fairly manageable even without that much prep for it. First of all, I'd like to remind people that double hazard sets are pretty unproblematic, they can get pressured fairly well and most of the tier can generally deal with hazard-stacking. Moving on to the actually problematic set that is SD, I still don't think it's that crazy. I used SD Chomp on HO during my reqs run, but unlike other HO mons we've banned, it didn't really stand out to me among these mons, even though I didn't run into a ton of Mandibuzz and GWeezing or whatever. Getting turns right with SD Chomp is really hard when you have to play around things like Latios, Icy Wind Torn-T and Encores coming from Balloon Tink or Ogerpons to the point where it can actually flop pretty badly if you get turns wrong and even getting turns right can just result in one kill which is kinda whatever. Sure, you can get these turns right or Tera against Latios and Torn, but is that really worth it when most teams should still have some way to RK you with Scarf Mien/Terrak, Lokix or some sort of counter-tera? Speaking of teras, most of the ones that you might use against Chomp are naturally good options to Tera. Ogerpon, Lokix, Steel Latios are all great options that will stay healthy enough to put in more work throughout the game, so they really don't feel that bad to me. There's more stuff that gets in its way like Balloon Exca and obviously Mandibuzz, but Chomp just doesn't have the room to be an especially crazy wincon to me.

I also want to bring up Garchomp's health again, because, even on HO, it feels like it needs to use it for something else. I mean it's not like most hyper offenses are gonna have other ways to keep things like Zapdos, Excadrill or Moth in check, so you generally have to spend or conserve Chomp's health to keep those in check, else you're just sacking mons and trading poorly. Pair that with hazards and no passive recovery and I feel like HO Chomp, even if it feels like it should stay at high health, will likely get worn down into revenge-killing range pretty easily. Not to say Garchomp is unable of sweeping, but it's doesn't happen often enough that I consider it a major problem.

As for why I think Chomp staying in the tier is healthy, it goes both for its ability to check threats and for its ability to set hazards. For people thinking about how banning Chomp might make building easier by not having to consider it, just remember that we have another very strong Ground-Type attacker in Excadrill (that Chomp itself can check btw) meaning that the need for some kind of way to pivot around Earthquake will remain high. You'll also have to keep mons like Moth and Crown in mind much more. Chomp helps keep those in check pretty well while being able to perform a variety of other roles, notably setting hazards and voltblocking. Chomp might put some constraint on builder, but it also removes some, it's most likely gonna be a net-neutral in terms of builder if we get rid of it. Garchomp is also the best hazard setter we have and it's not even close. It's extremely good into Excadrill which is especially important to keep Rocks up. Having easy and reliable access to hazards in general is extremely important to keep things like Ogerpon-Cornerstone, knocked Zapdos and knocked/AV Torn in check. You'll still be able to set hazards, but your opponent is gonna have an easier time preventing hazards from the likes of Arcanine-H, Sandy Shocks or Tinkaton in the long run, in part due to their inability to go up against Exca. I think hazards being easily set, but generally manageable by most mons is better than them being harder to set and allowing certain extremely dangerous mons to go unpunished.

I don't think Garchomp going would be good for the tier. I'd say its teambuilder impact is overstated, you can do fine against it without slapping Mandibuzz on every team. It's also really hard to argue any of its sets are outright broken like we could for Ceruledge or Goltres. Most importantly though, what it brings to teams it's slotted on is too good to let it go for me.

 

[harmony96366]

i wish we waited until we get treads back lmao

 

[MaahirMomtaz12]

i wish we waited until we get treads back lmao

Iron Treads isn't coming back its usage is very high