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Quaquaval is an interesting pokemon, but even so, I have my doubts about it being B+.
Pokemon like Iron Hands, Breloom and Baxcalibur are far more worthy of the rank than Quaquaval. I know that Chi-Yu is ridiculously good, but certainly not to the point that a pokemon as thoroughly mediocre as Quaquaval is so high up.
You would think, but in with the right positioning Quaquaval can really tear things up and potentially sweep kinda like Volcarona if positioned correctly with the right matchups, I think B+ is perfect for it right now, as while it isn't the best wallbreaker, it definitely does really well when positioned correctly and can be a massive lategame threat once the field is cleaned for it! Sure getting it going takes some prediction, but once you position it correctly and get the speed and attack boosts, it can be very hard to deal with! Bulk up sets are also pretty solid too! Overall I think Quauquval is more than worthy of B+ honestly, that being said I cannot see it rising unless some defensive pokemon get nerfed through losing tera if it gets banned later down the line. (Only other way it would fall off is if Urshifu RS doesn't get banned when home comes, and that is unlikely considering it got swords dance which probably breaks it.) So for now, Quaquaval feels like one of the better B+ mons but being such a matchup fish and a positioning reliant pokemon I think B+ is perfect for the Matchup Peacock as it is a very dangerous threat that is not to be overlooked.
Other than that maybe bring Dragonite to S- maybe, since not only is it amazingly offensive, the defensive utility it provides against anything that is not super effective against it, with the combination of tera makes it so good!
Don't want to be that guy who writes a book about an unviable mon & know it's been discussed already for a minute, but I've been using it a ton on mid-high ladder and I really feel that Toedscruel is a legitimate pick in OU and should be ranked as high as B-, or at least definitely in the Cs.
Beyond the general utility of being able to toxic/spore Garg, Hat, etc (which is underrated and can be game deciding), I think its actual main niche that has been overlooked is that it's legitimately one of the best and only removal options that consistently comes out on top vs Gholdengo (+Glimmora). It will always win a 1v1 situation vs lead Glimmora (unless they Tera ghost) with a combo of EP+Spin (+Spore). The key factor it has there over the Donphans is the really high spdef, meaning it can always stay in and not worry about something dumb like tera grass Energy Ball.
RE Gholden matchup, Cruel 2hkos most spreads w/ 0 investment Earth Power (46% min to max HP). 252 spatk Shadow Ball does ~25%, Make It Rain ~37%. It's not walling Specs, but it can easily switch in and win the 1v1 vs typical balloon sets, clearing the way to spin later. It can also threaten knock/spore on whatever switches in, so it's not exactly a momentum suck. With a basic core of something like Helmet Chomp+Balloon Gholden+Cruel, you can really easily own the hazard war vs most opposing hazard stack teams and be in a very strong position early in the match.
The typing is definitely more bad than good, but it does have some benefits, like totally blanking the very common Rotom-W (pump does like 25%). Not to mention the huge spdef makes it a decent pivot into special Valiant or a Scarf Chi-Yu you are 99% sure is going to Dark Pulse. Tera Water isn't bad too if you want to save it as a backup mid-game surprise to axe Chi-Yu, and Poison is also decent if you have no other poison types and you can tell you're going to be in trouble w/ Tspikes.
Haven't saved any good replays, but recommend testing it out as it is a pretty unique mon that definitely has some kind of OU niche imo.
it’s awesome seeing so many people helping out with what things do, why they’re ranked as they are, and so on. Thanks for all of the help, made a crazy day with the suspect a tad easier!
I think we are good to open the thread to nominations — post any further questions on ranks in the “simple questions simple answers” thread that’s pinned in this subforum
Why is Scream tail SO low? its in the same rank as ... sylveon a pokemon it almost outclasses. Its fast as hell while being tanky as hell and supporting its teammates like ting lu with wish. while being annoying as hell wit wish tec and encore . a bulky mon that outspeeds chomp yeah thats a great speed tier. I know relying on wish is a bit inconsistent but its def better than mons like pex and even loom imao
Sylveon has hyper voice + pixilate coming off a base 110 sp atk stat at a time when darks, dragons, and fightings are omnipresent in every team and shed tail is still legal. scream tail outclasses it in defensive utility yeah, but sylveon can put in work killing things if it has to and wish pass if it doesn't.
I think Scream Tail should be moved to C+/B. It has a good bulk, isn’t a set-up fodder with Encore/Perish Song, and most importantly, is the second better viable Wish user behind Alomomola. Wish is useful in fattest teams to revive Ting-Lu/Avalugg a bit, and breath against VoltTurn.
This Pokemon is broken so long as Terastallization is allowed and the counterplay to it hinges on exceptional offensive pressure or timing yourself around potential Tera type changes well. It doesn’t fit on every archetype quite perfectly like Gholdengo, but in terms of sheer effectiveness and it both being offensively potent, defensively sound, and not too slow, it does more than enough to be grouped with those in S- for me.
I'd petition for Salamence to at least C tier, maybe even B-. Offensive mence is kinda bad and dead, but defensive mence is uniquely suited to this metagame. Draco meteor/Flamethrower/Hurricane/Roost allow it to switch into and counter many physical offensive threats. Notably, it's strong against Donphan's older and younger brother, Supreme Overlord Kingambit, can situationally take on Roaring Moon/Chien Pao with tera Fairy, any Iron Hands without Ice Punch (still seems to be a less common pick), all Quaquaval, Breloom, and while it might not want to switch into Meowscarada because it fears knock off/play rough it still can if need be. It actually has staying power as well as it's the only Intimidate user with reliable recovery and it has a crazy amount of offensive coverage.
It is heavily reliant on Heavy Duty Boots, which holds it back, but there are very few non-walls that are actually capable of switching into this thing without eating a significant chunk of health - even off an uninvested special attack. Its high speed tier for a defensive wall also means what does switch in might not even be able to pull off an attack while it's already in KO range from the last one + potential entry hazards. It secures a nice momentum shift against a lot of the more offensive teams we see running around.
Yes it has problems but so does everything in C and D is far too harsh when this set is as good as it is. Personally I'd argue for B- to put it with the other Intimidates.
I feel Fire-type Paldean Tauros is better than everything currently in B- right now. It has direct competition with Skeledirge as a defensive Fire, but having access to Intimidate, Bulk Up, Body Press, Will-o-Wisp, and a solid Fire/Fighting typing gives it a solid physically defensive presence in its own set of ways. It's one of the tier's best Chien-Pao answers, unlike Skeledirge, and naturally handles other mons such as Roaring Moon, Dragonite (especially Tera Normal Dragonite), Kingambit, and Breloom (watch for Spore). Tera-Flying only expands this mon's checklist, annoying the hell out of the Paradox Donphans, Garchomp, Quaquaval, and Ting-Lu. The Grounds can't touch it with Earthquake / Headlong Rush and it now resists Great Tusk's Close Combat and only neutrally hit by Aqua Step. Being significantly faster than Skeledirge with its Base 100 Speed is also notable as it lets it creep on targets like Breloom to avoid the Spore or extremely fat Tank Chomp builds. It's also not as crippled by Knock Off as Skeledirge is, being only neutrally hit by SR and resisting Knock Off itself.
Its signature Raging Bull move is crucial for letting you deal with the many Screens HO teams running around while also just being a strong attack for it overall, especially after some Bulk Ups. Protect is also a decent option on it, letting it rack in Leftovers recovery and scouting Choiced attacks.
A > A+
This thing is off the wall. Difficult to one-shot without a strong grass/water/fighting/steel move. A defensive mon that forces so much progress with Salt Cure and ID BP. Its strength becomes more apparent once it Teras. Tera Steel for Ghold. Tera Grass for Tusk and Washtom. Tera Ghost for Dnite.
A- > B+
I think Clodsire’s lackluster physical bulk is too exploitable in this physically oriented metagame. The special threats it is up against also can break it or lure it. Chi-Yu and Valiant can tech Psychic/Psyshock to blow past it. Espathra uses it as setup bait. Pult can U-Turn on it. Being one of the few Pokemon in the tier that still has toxic is great, but the other grounds in the tier offer more in terms of offensive and defensive utility.
A- > A
With an incredibly offensive, hazard heavy metagame, its no secret that the best non-mega Magic Bouncer would be this good rn. Not only is it good at repelling hazards, but its utility with Nuzzle, CM, and Healing Wish make it invaluable at being a wincon or support. With Mystical Fire + CM it becomes one of the better Espathra checks. Tera potential with this thing is seemingly unlimited. Tera Water to throw off Chi-Yu. Tera Fairy for stronger Draining Kisses and to eliminate the Ghost weakness Psychic brings. Tera Flying to wall Ting-Lu and Tusks. Tera Steel to eliminate its Poison weakness and comfortably swap into Amoonguss and non-EP Glimm. It has made appearances on bulkier builds and HO builds, showing how versatile its assets are to these teams.
B+ > A-
Quaquaval (A.K.A Quaxslay) is an absolute snowballing machine for several reasons. For one, its defensive typing is great in this metagame. Resists Make it Rain, Chi-Yu’s STABs, Gambit, and Chien-Pao’s STABs while having decent enough bulk to backup said resistances. Aqua Step lets it spiral out of control, especially if water resists are weakened. With Jolly and at +1 it already outspeeds Pult. Now consider the fact that it has strong fighting STAB and Ice Spinner/Brave Bird for coverage on top of not having a weakness to common priority. It is not just a snowballing machine, it can also run a CB set with U-Turn for immediate horsepower while still having the potential to snowball. A bulkier set with Spin and U-Turn can also work. Its better resistances, U-Turn, and reliable recovery distinguishes itself from the other fighting-type spinner Great Tusks.
it’s awesome seeing so many people helping out with what things do, why they’re ranked as they are, and so on. Thanks for all of the help, made a crazy day with the suspect a tad easier!
I think we are good to open the thread to nominations — post any further questions on ranks in the “simple questions simple answers” thread that’s pinned in this subforum
I think Wo-Chien deserves to be in the list. In the D-Rank, but it deserves to be in the list.
Yeah, Grass/Dark is a bad type but:
-Bulky with very good defensive stats
-Useful ability that drops the attack of the opponent
-Leech Seed + Knock Off combo
-Can put screens
-Has more utility moves in the form of Stun Spore and Taunt
-Can use Body Press in advantage to its bulk
-Can be used in a myriad of different ways thanks to is moveset and offensive stats
Yeah, I know the typing is bad and there is other stuff that does the walling and supporting better. But I think Wo-Chien has still a good combination of stats, ability and movepool that allow it to enter in the viability ranking in the D-Rank position.
This is the supreme revenge killer I use; First Impression is strong as hell, being able to revenge kill Chien-Pao, Roaring Moon, Chi-Yu, and able to dent or even OHKO any neutral opponent with or without chip, such as Barraskewda or Floatzel, Breloom, and Garchomp. Its STAB Close Combat easily destroys resists to that such as Corviknight and Iron Hands, and has coverage to patch up it's weak spots such as Wild Charge for Toxapex, Azumarill, and Dondozo with or without chip, Zen Headbutt for Clodsire and Annihilape, Earthquake for Gholdengo and Skeledirge, and it can give it's checks like Dragonite and Dragapult a hard time with Will-O-Wisp or even the niche Stun Spore that can also give it some speed control by paralyzing threats like Chi-Yu on switch-in. Tera Bug or Fighting is probably the best option for this to expand the already crazy amount of damage it outputs with its STABs, or you can even try out a Tera Electric set to dent Corviknight, Dondozo, and Toxapex even harder. Builds like Sun, Bulky Offense, and Hyper Offense suit Slither Wing well, as it can be a good option to revenge kill or neuter Pokemon mentioned above for said teams.
This Pokemon is broken so long as Terastallization is allowed and the counterplay to it hinges on exceptional offensive pressure or timing yourself around potential Tera type changes well. It doesn’t fit on every archetype quite perfectly like Gholdengo, but in terms of sheer effectiveness and it both being offensively potent, defensively sound, and not too slow, it does more than enough to be grouped with those in S- for me.
I think it's busted with or without the mechanic tbh. It's bulk is absurd, able to live ridiculously powerful attacks like Specs Chi-Yu Overheat and Specs Iron Valiant Moonblast from full and is amplified by Dual Screens boosting its bulk to even more absurd levels letting it boosts w/ Bulk Up and get a free power up to its Rage Fist. It's also quite good at deterring Defog due to Defiant. Furthermore, the only Pokemon that would want to switch into Rage Fist get completely Anihilaped by Drain Punch.
It's only flaw I think is that Bulk Up sets can take a while to get set-up and sets like Chesto Rest are a bit vulnerable to passive damage from stuff like Spikes, which can make it easy from something like Roaring Moon to revenge kill. Still, I think it normally is able to get 1 kill minimum even in the worst case scenarios so I think S- is fair.
Hello everybody, before starting my argumentation, i just want to say that this is the first timeI post on any VR and therefore my first ever nomination, I know that ranking an unranked mon needs a heavy amount of evidence, and that if this fails im basically killing myself in the process, but I have been trying normal Donphan, and its pretty cool and I belive it deserves a nomintation, so im gonna try my best to explain why
The first thing people are gonna think when talking about is: Why not or or even ground types for that matter, lets compare them on stats
So at first glance, Don is a middle of the road mon beetween the 2, with 90/120/60 defenses, Donphan is bulky enough to survive a good amount of hits, now, as typing, pure Ground compared to Tusk, means no resistance against Dark, Steel, Rock and neutrality to ice, but no weakness to Fairy and Psychic, and compared to Threads, means no inmunity to poison, no resistance to Fairy and dragon and neutrality to ice but no weakness to ground, fighting and neutrality for fire
So this is another middle of the road mon, and im sure you might now where this is going but let me keep going, as for move pool goes, they are pretty much similar outside of especific options, such as (in the case that I wanna enfasize) Ice Shard, a Priority move with 40 BP, with all of this in mind i present to you, the Donphan set
Donphan @ Assault Vest
Ability: Sturdy
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 240 HP / 16 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Knock Off
- Earthquake
- Rapid Spin
- Ice Shard
with a total of 360 Spedef this bad boy is not afraid of getting a stab blanket by dengo, while the other gets blasted by Focus Blast, now, comparing to abilitys, in this context, they 3 abilitys are pretty situational, Tusk has the best chance of using it thanks to sun (No, im not counting Booster Energy) Ice shard provides that whatever happens, you will get one last attack, and with how slow don is, he doesnt have to invest in speed, so you can now invest more on defenses, you can put the 16 evis on Atk or defenses, Atk lets you have a chance to OHKO dengo, while the Def is always good lets compare calcs vs Gholdengo
As you can see, not too shabby, now, the 3 other elephants can take this and run away with it, but lets see other things don can do
+1 252 SpA Volcarona Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Donphan: 150-177 (39 - 46%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (has to tera grass to dent)
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Donphan: 108-127 (28.1 - 33%) -- guaranteed 4HKO (Don 2 hit KO with any attack twice or any attack + Ice shard)
252 SpA Chi-Yu Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Donphan: 150-177 (39 - 46%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (Gets OHKO with EQ)
+1 252 SpA Iron Valiant Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Donphan: 237-279 (61.7 - 72.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (2 Kos with EQ)
Donphan is a middle of the road Pokemon who sometimes can be the elephant you need for the job, theres is aspects where you will prefer one over the other, in this case, you want donphan when you need a Gholdengo counter on a Sunless team and you dont want to stack weaknesses to Fire and Fighting (common types right now on OU)
Comparing to other ground types, rapid spin + Ice shard + Knock Off lets you have a good amount of utily that will never let you be passive, since nothing reallly likes Knock Off, and especially now since its so uncommon, this also lets you have a good matchup against Chomp, sure you can run another Ground type like Gastro or One of the sires + Corvi, but then you really have to play for a longer game just to get the hazards off, Donphan is more for Bulky offensive style thanks to its role compression, honestly, from the list of avalible ground types, Donphan wins against Clod, Treads, Toedscruel, Palosand (Looking at the guy who suggested palo) and Chomp, the rest is gonna be cripled in some sense with knock off, the worst matcups (in ground vs ground) are Hippo (who is more exploitable on the especial side anyways), Tusk (if he runs Booster Energy, because if he is not then he is knock off prone) and Ting Lu (to be fair, Lu is a league of his own)
as for matchups against ghost, he wins against Skeleridge is he not using WoW + Hex, and he cant take Anhi but at least Knocking off his item means you can potentially gain more time to play around him, and wins against every other ghost (unless your doing something like Surf Dragapult man what are you doing)
As for Partners and counters
Partners: Donphan IS gonna get poisoned, theres NO other way, its a guaranteed, therefore, Wish Support (Sylveon for example) goes hand in hand, since Donphan is gonna remove hazards and knock off items, mons that apreciate having a easy time cleaning are perfect for it, in particular, Chi Yu who is broken but also Chien Pao who is also broken, not having a fighting type or a stell means you can run other mons to not stack weaknesses, such as Ape, Valiant, or Kingambit, who also apreciates having as much health as possible for the Sweep. I mentioned how Don could take on Chomp but they are also good partners since Chomp can Lure in Steels like Corv or Orthworm who think they are free and melt them with Flametrower, in return, Donphan can scare Dragapult with relative ease
Counters: Donphan is of course withouth its fare share of problems, WoW + Hex Skeleridge is one of the few mons weak to don that can take on Don due to his stellar bulk and recovery, Don also cant touch Dondozo or Garganacl outside of Knock Off, and just like I mentioned before, He really cannot touch Ting Lu, lastly, due to how the meta is right now, Donphan is 9/10 gonna get either poisoned or burn, so you need to plan for it
In conclusion: Even tho Donphan faces stiff competition from other ground types and its timeline versions of himself, Donphan has good enough own traits to make it a valuable pick, and given some support, he will impress you with his abilitys to make things happen, and despite being a bad player (because lets be clear, im bad at the game) dont let this stop you from trying Donphan
and as for replays, I have some, I am fully aware that these are not the best examples at all, but i hope you can still apreciate them
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1738560661 (Grimm had Spirit Break meaning Chomp and Gambit couldnt take him on, luckily, Donphan scared him away, which started the Kingambit sweep, one that couldnt had happen with hazards up)
I think it's busted with or without the mechanic tbh. It's bulk is absurd, able to live ridiculously powerful attacks like Specs Chi-Yu Overheat and Specs Iron Valiant Moonblast from full and is amplified by Dual Screens boosting its bulk to even more absurd levels letting it boosts w/ Bulk Up and get a free power up to its Rage Fist. It's also quite good at deterring Defog due to Defiant. Furthermore, the only Pokemon that would want to switch into Rage Fist get completely Anihilaped by Drain Punch.
It's only flaw I think is that Bulk Up sets can take a while to get set-up and sets like Chesto Rest are a bit vulnerable to passive damage from stuff like Spikes, which can make it easy from something like Roaring Moon to revenge kill. Still, I think it normally is able to get 1 kill minimum even in the worst case scenarios so I think S- is fair.
110/80/90 bulk isn't absurd by any stretch of the imagination just to point that out. For a base 90 speed pokemon it's got solid bulk but to call it "absurdly" bulky is just not true.
A > A+
This thing is off the wall. Difficult to one-shot without a strong grass/water/fighting/steel move. A defensive mon that forces so much progress with Salt Cure and ID BP. Its strength becomes more apparent once it Teras. Tera Steel for Ghold. Tera Grass for Tusk and Washtom. Tera Ghost for Dnite.
I echo this. Garganacl is one of the best Pokémon in the game. Initially there was some hesitancy towards it as it is a tad cheesy in terms of reliance on spare turns and Body Press for the sweeping component, but I think with more time, people realized how much it could chip away with Salt Cure and how awesome its ability is. I’d use this on both bulky teams and on screens offense even without much hesitation now, and it’s winning outright a good portion. Tera helps it take center stage a ton too as it can change its defensive profile to be more practical for any given game stats.
Hello everybody, before starting my argumentation, i just want to say that this is the first timeI post on any VR and therefore my first ever nomination, I know that ranking an unranked mon needs a heavy amount of evidence, and that if this fails im basically killing myself in the process, but I have been trying normal Donphan, and its pretty cool and I belive it deserves a nomintation, so im gonna try my best to explain why
The first thing people are gonna think when talking about is: Why not or or even ground types for that matter, lets compare them on stats
So at first glance, Don is a middle of the road mon beetween the 2, with 90/120/60 defenses, Donphan is bulky enough to survive a good amount of hits, now, as typing, pure Ground compared to Tusk, means no resistance against Dark, Steel, Rock and neutrality to ice, but no weakness to Fairy and Psychic, and compared to Threads, means no inmunity to poison, no resistance to Fairy and dragon and neutrality to ice but no weakness to ground, fighting and neutrality for fire
So this is another middle of the road mon, and im sure you might now where this is going but let me keep going, as for move pool goes, they are pretty much similar outside of especific options, such as (in the case that I wanna enfasize) Ice Shard, a Priority move with 40 BP, with all of this in mind i present to you, the Donphan set
Donphan @ Assault Vest
Ability: Sturdy
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 240 HP / 16 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Knock Off
- Earthquake
- Rapid Spin
- Ice Shard
with a total of 360 Spedef this bad boy is not afraid of getting a stab blanket by dengo, while the other gets blasted by Focus Blast, now, comparing to abilitys, in this context, they 3 abilitys are pretty situational, Tusk has the best chance of using it thanks to sun (No, im not counting Booster Energy) Ice shard provides that whatever happens, you will get one last attack, and with how slow don is, he doesnt have to invest in speed, so you can now invest more on defenses, you can put the 16 evis on Atk or defenses, Atk lets you have a chance to OHKO dengo, while the Def is always good lets compare calcs vs Gholdengo
As you can see, not too shabby, now, the 3 other elephants can take this and run away with it, but lets see other things don can do
+1 252 SpA Volcarona Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Donphan: 150-177 (39 - 46%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (has to tera grass to dent)
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Donphan: 108-127 (28.1 - 33%) -- guaranteed 4HKO (Don 2 hit KO with any attack twice or any attack + Ice shard)
252 SpA Chi-Yu Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Donphan: 150-177 (39 - 46%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (Gets OHKO with EQ)
+1 252 SpA Iron Valiant Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Donphan: 237-279 (61.7 - 72.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (2 Kos with EQ)
Donphan is a middle of the road Pokemon who sometimes can be the elephant you need for the job, theres is aspects where you will prefer one over the other, in this case, you want donphan when you need a Gholdengo counter on a Sunless team and you dont want to stack weaknesses to Fire and Fighting (common types right now on OU)
Comparing to other ground types, rapid spin + Ice shard + Knock Off lets you have a good amount of utily that will never let you be passive, since nothing reallly likes Knock Off, and especially now since its so uncommon, this also lets you have a good matchup against Chomp, sure you can run another Ground type like Gastro or One of the sires + Corvi, but then you really have to play for a longer game just to get the hazards off, Donphan is more for Bulky offensive style thanks to its role compression, honestly, from the list of avalible ground types, Donphan wins against Clod, Treads, Toedscruel, Palosand (Looking at the guy who suggested palo) and Chomp, the rest is gonna be cripled in some sense with knock off, the worst matcups (in ground vs ground) are Hippo (who is more exploitable on the especial side anyways), Tusk (if he runs Booster Energy, because if he is not then he is knock off prone) and Ting Lu (to be fair, Lu is a league of his own)
as for matchups against ghost, he wins against Skeleridge is he not using WoW + Hex, and he cant take Anhi but at least Knocking off his item means you can potentially gain more time to play around him, and wins against every other ghost (unless your doing something like Surf Dragapult man what are you doing)
As for Partners and counters
Partners: Donphan IS gonna get poisoned, theres NO other way, its a guaranteed, therefore, Wish Support (Sylveon for example) goes hand in hand, since Donphan is gonna remove hazards and knock off items, mons that apreciate having a easy time cleaning are perfect for it, in particular, Chi Yu who is broken but also Chien Pao who is also broken, not having a fighting type or a stell means you can run other mons to not stack weaknesses, such as Ape, Valiant, or Kingambit, who also apreciates having as much health as possible for the Sweep. I mentioned how Don could take on Chomp but they are also good partners since Chomp can Lure in Steels like Corv or Orthworm who think they are free and melt them with Flametrower, in return, Donphan can scare Dragapult with relative ease
Counters: Donphan is of course withouth its fare share of problems, WoW + Hex Skeleridge is one of the few mons weak to don that can take on Don due to his stellar bulk and recovery, Don also cant touch Dondozo or Garganacl outside of Knock Off, and just like I mentioned before, He really cannot touch Ting Lu, lastly, due to how the meta is right now, Donphan is 9/10 gonna get either poisoned or burn, so you need to plan for it
In conclusion: Even tho Donphan faces stiff competition from other ground types and its timeline versions of himself, Donphan has good enough own traits to make it a valuable pick, and given some support, he will impress you with his abilitys to make things happen, and despite being a bad player (because lets be clear, im bad at the game) dont let this stop you from trying Donphan
and as for replays, I have some, I am fully aware that these are not the best examples at all, but i hope you can still apreciate them
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1738560661 (Grimm had Spirit Break meaning Chomp and Gambit couldnt take him on, luckily, Donphan scared him away, which started the Kingambit sweep, one that couldnt had happen with hazards up)
Specifically for the set you mentionned, why not just run AV Great Tusk instead?
Especially for all the calcs you mentionned, Great Tusk both tanks them better as well as having a more offensive presence.
Your comparison of stats doesn't really paint a full picture, because while Great Tusk does have a lower spdef stat than donphan, overall it's HP offsets this by making it tank moves better, making it have overall better special bulkiness than donphan.
This essentially makes Donphan worse on every level except for weaknesses and access to ice shard.
The worst part, is that while great tusk does have all the additional weaknesses, is that in practice, the pokemon that scare Great Tusk out, Donphan can barely beat. Iron valiant, Corviknight, Roaring moon (with acrobatics), Espathra and Hatterene are all the main users of Fairy, Flying and Psychic moves in the Rankings, and Donphan can't really stomach hits from any of these and threaten them out easily.
At this point the only real reason to use it would be ice shard, but I don't really think that makes it distinct enough from other grounds to justify using on a team, or put on the VR.
All your replays being below the 1400's also doesn't really depict a picture of how Donphan could be used in higher level play either unfortunately.
I have to echo Garganacl to A+. Imo it’s the best defensive Tera candidate in the metagame, probably even among the best Tera users in general. So many types work with this thing. Fairy, Grass, Ghost, and my personal favorite in Flying, all work wonders against the mons that try to counter its Rock typing. Its ability and signature move are both overpowered, and its insane bulk and reliable recovery just let it sit on most of the meta. ID + BP is a tried and true set, but I’ve also been enjoying Protect since it not only lets you scout choiced moves (especially Trick), it also lets you preserve your precious Recover PP.
Things I agree with: to A+
Already talked about on literally page 1. to A
The post above already covered very well why Hatterene is so good. It feels like a weird mix of Clefable and Mega Sableye and one of the best defensive Tera abusers in the game, and aside from the aforementioned Fairy/Steel/Flying, I’ve even seen Fire and Poison variants putting in massive work. It’s so consistently good that often when I build a team with Hatterene, I’m intentionally picking offensive teammates that don’t rely on Tera because of how much value Hatterene provides. slightly up from D
I’m probably one of the 11 or so people who have actually unironically used Salamence this gen, and he is really pretty decent at being a bulky Intimidate user, especially with reliable recovery in Roost. Yet despite having reliably recovery unlike Tauros and Gyarados, I don’t actually think he’s as good as them because he doesn’t offer any other utility unlike Tauros with WoW or Gyarados with Taunt. Draco and Hurricane are both unreliable in their own ways, so he often becomes set up bait even after he gets an Intimidate off. I could see him going up to C, but honestly the line between C and D is so fine that I don’t really mind either way.
and for my own nomination: to C+ or B-
I’ve talked about this on page 1, but Rotom-H has several matchups in which it performs better Wash. Everything nowadays feels like they are turning Fairy or Steel, which already makes Rotom-H’s status as a defensive Fire type with Levitate and a strong Fire STAB pretty valuable. At the very worst, it can Tera Steel, Fairy or Water to do exactly what Wash is doing, but with Overheat instead of Hydro Pump. Wash is still more reliable for being less vulnerable to hazards and hence less dependent on HDB or Tera, but as a defensive Fire type Heat is not that far behind Tauros, if at all.
to B
Hippowdon is another pretty good anti-meta piece on bulkier teams to deal with various different HO archetypes like Shed Tail, Screens and Sun, thanks to its very rare access to recovery + phasing + SR. On more offensive teams it's a worse Ting-Lu, but recovery goes a long way on bulkier teams. It does face a lot of competition from Doxphans, Garganacl and aforementioned Ting-Lu, so I can understand if it stays B-, but personally I think it's about as good as Pex and Blissey on fatter teams.
Against the rain teams I've faced, this has been the premier threat. Wave Crash obliterates a huge amount of the tier under the rain, especially if Tera'd, with it outspeeding everything relevant with little reason to click a different move. I believe fully defensive Dondozo is the only thing that avoids the 2HKO, with it OHKOing numerous defensive Pokemon and offensive threats that resist it. It also really enjoys the lack of Toxapex at the moment. While it shares similar traits with Barraskewda and trades off in survivability, I believe the sheer power of Wave Crash should allow it to share a ranking with Barraskewda.
Against the rain teams I've faced, this has been the premier threat. Wave Crash obliterates a huge amount of the tier under the rain, especially if Tera'd, with it outspeeding everything relevant with little reason to click a different move. I believe fully defensive Dondozo is the only thing that avoids the 2HKO, with it OHKOing numerous defensive Pokemon and offensive threats that resist it. It also really enjoys the lack of Toxapex at the moment. While it shares similar traits with Barraskewda and trades off in survivability, I believe the sheer power of Wave Crash should allow it to share a ranking with Barraskewda.
yep, floatzel is pretty insane under rain. 252 Atk Floatzel Wave Crash vs. 252 HP / 168+ Def Corviknight in Rain: 190-225 (47.5 - 56.2%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery. it beats all the best mons like chi yu, chien pao, great tusk and even pult. plus it can even tera water if it wants a stronger wave crash.
Hello everybody, before starting my argumentation, i just want to say that this is the first timeI post on any VR and therefore my first ever nomination, I know that ranking an unranked mon needs a heavy amount of evidence, and that if this fails im basically killing myself in the process, but I have been trying normal Donphan, and its pretty cool and I belive it deserves a nomintation, so im gonna try my best to explain why
The first thing people are gonna think when talking about is: Why not or or even ground types for that matter, lets compare them on stats
So at first glance, Don is a middle of the road mon beetween the 2, with 90/120/60 defenses, Donphan is bulky enough to survive a good amount of hits, now, as typing, pure Ground compared to Tusk, means no resistance against Dark, Steel, Rock and neutrality to ice, but no weakness to Fairy and Psychic, and compared to Threads, means no inmunity to poison, no resistance to Fairy and dragon and neutrality to ice but no weakness to ground, fighting and neutrality for fire
So this is another middle of the road mon, and im sure you might now where this is going but let me keep going, as for move pool goes, they are pretty much similar outside of especific options, such as (in the case that I wanna enfasize) Ice Shard, a Priority move with 40 BP, with all of this in mind i present to you, the Donphan set
Donphan @ Assault Vest
Ability: Sturdy
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 240 HP / 16 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Knock Off
- Earthquake
- Rapid Spin
- Ice Shard
with a total of 360 Spedef this bad boy is not afraid of getting a stab blanket by dengo, while the other gets blasted by Focus Blast, now, comparing to abilitys, in this context, they 3 abilitys are pretty situational, Tusk has the best chance of using it thanks to sun (No, im not counting Booster Energy) Ice shard provides that whatever happens, you will get one last attack, and with how slow don is, he doesnt have to invest in speed, so you can now invest more on defenses, you can put the 16 evis on Atk or defenses, Atk lets you have a chance to OHKO dengo, while the Def is always good lets compare calcs vs Gholdengo
As you can see, not too shabby, now, the 3 other elephants can take this and run away with it, but lets see other things don can do
+1 252 SpA Volcarona Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Donphan: 150-177 (39 - 46%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (has to tera grass to dent)
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Donphan: 108-127 (28.1 - 33%) -- guaranteed 4HKO (Don 2 hit KO with any attack twice or any attack + Ice shard)
252 SpA Chi-Yu Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Donphan: 150-177 (39 - 46%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (Gets OHKO with EQ)
+1 252 SpA Iron Valiant Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Donphan: 237-279 (61.7 - 72.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (2 Kos with EQ)
Donphan is a middle of the road Pokemon who sometimes can be the elephant you need for the job, theres is aspects where you will prefer one over the other, in this case, you want donphan when you need a Gholdengo counter on a Sunless team and you dont want to stack weaknesses to Fire and Fighting (common types right now on OU)
Comparing to other ground types, rapid spin + Ice shard + Knock Off lets you have a good amount of utily that will never let you be passive, since nothing reallly likes Knock Off, and especially now since its so uncommon, this also lets you have a good matchup against Chomp, sure you can run another Ground type like Gastro or One of the sires + Corvi, but then you really have to play for a longer game just to get the hazards off, Donphan is more for Bulky offensive style thanks to its role compression, honestly, from the list of avalible ground types, Donphan wins against Clod, Treads, Toedscruel, Palosand (Looking at the guy who suggested palo) and Chomp, the rest is gonna be cripled in some sense with knock off, the worst matcups (in ground vs ground) are Hippo (who is more exploitable on the especial side anyways), Tusk (if he runs Booster Energy, because if he is not then he is knock off prone) and Ting Lu (to be fair, Lu is a league of his own)
as for matchups against ghost, he wins against Skeleridge is he not using WoW + Hex, and he cant take Anhi but at least Knocking off his item means you can potentially gain more time to play around him, and wins against every other ghost (unless your doing something like Surf Dragapult man what are you doing)
As for Partners and counters
Partners: Donphan IS gonna get poisoned, theres NO other way, its a guaranteed, therefore, Wish Support (Sylveon for example) goes hand in hand, since Donphan is gonna remove hazards and knock off items, mons that apreciate having a easy time cleaning are perfect for it, in particular, Chi Yu who is broken but also Chien Pao who is also broken, not having a fighting type or a stell means you can run other mons to not stack weaknesses, such as Ape, Valiant, or Kingambit, who also apreciates having as much health as possible for the Sweep. I mentioned how Don could take on Chomp but they are also good partners since Chomp can Lure in Steels like Corv or Orthworm who think they are free and melt them with Flametrower, in return, Donphan can scare Dragapult with relative ease
Counters: Donphan is of course withouth its fare share of problems, WoW + Hex Skeleridge is one of the few mons weak to don that can take on Don due to his stellar bulk and recovery, Don also cant touch Dondozo or Garganacl outside of Knock Off, and just like I mentioned before, He really cannot touch Ting Lu, lastly, due to how the meta is right now, Donphan is 9/10 gonna get either poisoned or burn, so you need to plan for it
In conclusion: Even tho Donphan faces stiff competition from other ground types and its timeline versions of himself, Donphan has good enough own traits to make it a valuable pick, and given some support, he will impress you with his abilitys to make things happen, and despite being a bad player (because lets be clear, im bad at the game) dont let this stop you from trying Donphan
and as for replays, I have some, I am fully aware that these are not the best examples at all, but i hope you can still apreciate them
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1738560661 (Grimm had Spirit Break meaning Chomp and Gambit couldnt take him on, luckily, Donphan scared him away, which started the Kingambit sweep, one that couldnt had happen with hazards up)
Not really convinced how it's any better than the other two Donphans. You mention higher SpD than Tusk but its HP is so much lower that Tusk still ends up specially bulkier in the end:
252 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Donphan: 301-355 (78.3 - 92.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Donphan: 196-232 (51 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Great Tusk: 331-391 (76.2 - 90%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Great Tusk: 210-247 (48.3 - 56.9%) -- 90.2% chance to 2HKO
So at this point we can pretty fairly say that stat-wise, it's completely inferior to Great Tusk. And sure it's slightly stronger than Treads but if you're using Treads over Tusk already you either want Steel resistances or more speed, neither of which regular Donphan offers.
Priority is cool of course, but Ice Shard is non-STAB and on your set coming off barely any investment. One of your replays shows it doing 34% to a Garchomp, a x4 weak target. That feels super situational since you need REALLY weakened targets to kill with it. Really the only reason I see Donphan sometimes being worth consideration over Tusk has nothing to do with Ice Shard (Tusk already checks most Ice Shard targets through sheer bulk and attacking power after all) but for edge cases where Fighting's weaknesses are undesirable, such as against Spirit Break Grimmsnarl and Tera Flying Roaring Moon, but those matchups are either uncommon and easy to just send another mon in or matchups Donphan isn't winning either (Moon takes a paltry 30% from Ice Shard and even less if it Teras into something neutral to it, while Donphan without physical bulk takes over 80% from +1 BE Acro).
And while 1300 isn't as low this early into the gen as last gen, I don't quite think it's very convincing for an UR nom either. Your opponents were using grandiose metagame staples such as Fraxure, Dudunsparce and Wugtrio. Not to mention C Rank is really high even for a gimmick mon like this, it's so hilariously outclassed by Tusk outside of extremely specific scenarios that D Rank would be pushing it.
TLDR outclassed af by Tusk, non-STAB Ice Shard is meh and the different defensive typing doesn't actually let you beat all that much more
Big Tuskus has been and continues to be the Lando-T of Gen 9 so far. It's one of the most splashable and effective glue mons for almost any team structure barring anything super fat (which as a style isn't the most viable now as a whole), and it has the ability to fit almost any role you'd want to fit on it. With tremendous utility options in hazard setting, hazard removal, the now somewhat scarce Knock Off, and Taunt, and capable of running a colossally wide range of sets, from physically defensive capable of comfortably tanking a hit from Banded Pao, specially defensive AV for Ghold and the Fish, offensive sets either with Booster Energy or run on Sun, and even Choice sets like Scarf which has declined in popularity for sure but its ability to creep the ubiquitous Scarf Gholdengo can be a useful option as well.
Its typing is phenomenal both offensively and defensively with its STABs often being enough on any set to get the job done, and Ground typing in general is an amazing type to have in this Gen right now given the more limited range of resistances and immunities available (many of which being uncomfortable risking the potential Ice Spinner in its movepool).
No Glimmora likes running into one of these things given that they're all now EVed to underspeed it naturally and outspeed after +1 Rapid Spin, allowing it to remove hazards and break Sash turn 1 and OHKO without risk turn 2 allowing only 1 layer of Toxic Spikes up and nothing more; Toxic Spikes which it can immediately remove as well as Gholdengo is not the most comfortable switching in to follow Glimm up just to preserve that 1 layer. A great boon vs the many team structures still relying on Glimm + Ghold hazards to set progress.
Any non-fat team archetype appreciates having this thing on it, Balance, BO, HO, Sun, they can all make great use of any of the sets and options Tusk offers them. While it definitely does have limitations in its offerings (it cannot pivot like Lando or its future counterpart Iron Treads, and it can't set Spikes like Clod, Chomp, and Ting) and there are plenty of options for case specific roles on teams where Tusk is outclassed in terms of necessity as we can see in its declining usage from the very early days, its insane versatility and compression options will likely mean that no matter what you're building it's very likely that Tuskus was in consideration for a slot on it whether it made the final cut or not, and odds are even then it would have pulled its weight on those teams to some degree regardless.
It's definitely not broken by any stretch, especially compared to all the stuff around it, but in terms of pure viability as a considerable option on any team I really think it stands shoulder to shoulder with Ghold and I don't see that changing.
Using scrappy, Flamigo can pressure all of S and S- rank with strong close combats and brave birds, hits decently hard with base 115 attack and a decent speed tier that notably outspeeds gholdengo and great Tusk. It can also run scarf to great effect due to bypassing fightings normal immunities and it also has U-turn. It could probably even run some strange coverage like throat chop (?) Liquidation (??) or even like a taunt swords dance set I guess.
Its also notably rocks neutral and immune to spikes and toxic spikes.
As for where it could go I'm not really sure but C rank at the very least seems reasonable.
Specifically for the set you mentionned, why not just run AV Great Tusk instead?
Especially for all the calcs you mentionned, Great Tusk both tanks them better as well as having a more offensive presence.
Your comparison of stats doesn't really paint a full picture, because while Great Tusk does have a lower spdef stat than donphan, overall it's HP offsets this by making it tank moves better, making it have overall better special bulkiness than donphan.
This essentially makes Donphan worse on every level except for weaknesses and access to ice shard.
The worst part, is that while great tusk does have all the additional weaknesses, is that in practice, the pokemon that scare Great Tusk out, Donphan can barely beat. Iron valiant, Corviknight, Roaring moon (with acrobatics), Espathra and Hatterene are all the main users of Fairy, Flying and Psychic moves in the Rankings, and Donphan can't really stomach hits from any of these and threaten them out easily.
At this point the only real reason to use it would be ice shard, but I don't really think that makes it distinct enough from other grounds to justify using on a team, or put on the VR.
All your replays being below the 1400's also doesn't really depict a picture of how Donphan could be used in higher level play either unfortunately.
Not really convinced how it's any better than the other two Donphans. You mention higher SpD than Tusk but its HP is so much lower that Tusk still ends up specially bulkier in the end:
252 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Donphan: 301-355 (78.3 - 92.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Donphan: 196-232 (51 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Great Tusk: 331-391 (76.2 - 90%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Great Tusk: 210-247 (48.3 - 56.9%) -- 90.2% chance to 2HKO
So at this point we can pretty fairly say that stat-wise, it's completely inferior to Great Tusk. And sure it's slightly stronger than Treads but if you're using Treads over Tusk already you either want Steel resistances or more speed, neither of which regular Donphan offers.
Priority is cool of course, but Ice Shard is non-STAB and on your set coming off barely any investment. One of your replays shows it doing 34% to a Garchomp, a x4 weak target. That feels super situational since you need REALLY weakened targets to kill with it. Really the only reason I see Donphan sometimes being worth consideration over Tusk has nothing to do with Ice Shard (Tusk already checks most Ice Shard targets through sheer bulk and attacking power after all) but for edge cases where Fighting's weaknesses are undesirable, such as against Spirit Break Grimmsnarl and Tera Flying Roaring Moon, but those matchups are either uncommon and easy to just send another mon in or matchups Donphan isn't winning either (Moon takes a paltry 30% from Ice Shard and even less if it Teras into something neutral to it, while Donphan without physical bulk takes over 80% from +1 BE Acro).
And while 1300 isn't as low this early into the gen as last gen, I don't quite think it's very convincing for an UR nom either. Your opponents were using grandiose metagame staples such as Fraxure, Dudunsparce and Wugtrio. Not to mention C Rank is really high even for a gimmick mon like this, it's so hilariously outclassed by Tusk outside of extremely specific scenarios that D Rank would be pushing it.
TLDR outclassed af by Tusk, non-STAB Ice Shard is meh and the different defensive typing doesn't actually let you beat all that much more
Welp, looks like I failed, and miserably at that
I tried to think about a good comeback for this but I couldnt, while yes, I theres a tiny niche, I guess is not big enough at the end of the day, I overpushed to C because I didnt understood D rank it seems, I though Don was more viable than that (of course im not saying its not better than tusk or treads, but i wanted to demonstrate that he could go), and the replays yeah they are bad, im sorry, i know im bad at the game and I shouldnt have even tried, but I wanted to anyways, still, even if he doesnt make it, try it one day, its fun, if somebody wants the team to just check it out, its on the signature, but yeah, this also means im probably getting blacklisted from nominating mons ever again, but hey, I did my best, and thats what matters
to S-
UR -----> C tier
or 
or even ground types for that matter, lets compare them on stats
to A+
to A
slightly up from D
to C+ or B-
to B
C -> C+
