Annihilape is absolutely broken. It has perfect STAB coverage, and a stat spread + movepool that enables Rage Fist to actually work. It's very close to being perfect, especially because of Terra. It invalidates defense and at a minimum trades with offense. There are absolutely mons that could go either way like Gholdengo but Ape is not ambiguous.
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter TPP
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I also agree with dragapult being absolutely bonkers, not just for the tera boost it got this generation but for how versatile it is backed by its tremendous speed tier. It's definitely a mon I've always thought was criminally underrated for how good it is (nobody was saying it's bad but it wasn't getting the mentions it deserved relative to some of the other mons, putting aside the new toy syndrome). Interestingly, Finchinator also made a personal tier list himself in which he put dragapult as a top 3 mon on his youtube channel:
It's a short video but a nice video to listen to nonetheless (have disagreements but are minor nitpicks particularly in the lower part of this gigantic list).
I like the tier list bandwagon so i decided to make mine, theres a few controversial opinions here and there so ill explain my thinking
okay, where is pex? why is OU? I swear to god, i have only seen 1 pex, 1, and i lost before he even came out, i have no idea, you guys told me pex was dead, i just dont know man
With Gholdengo so common, while corv its still excellent when dengo is not around, Gholdengo alone REALLY affects his overall viability, Sun is also extremly common and does no favors either 
its a hazard cleaner who does not get blocked by dengo, which is insanely good right now, also the funny population bomb meme its just to whack for me
God i fucking this mon, it just wont die, i can spend 100 turns against this thing and it just wont die, he will get his spikes, he will bonk me with ruination, and while its never gonna sweep your team, its just too bulky on everywhere side
sun is the best wheater by far in this gen, and has 10000000000000000000000000000000000000 tools to work with, including but not limited to: scovi, chi yu, every proto mon that its not banned, volcarona and iron moth, etc, and its just that while its manageable, its kinda stressing to see +2 proto boosted Roaring Moon spamming attacksany questions about the opinion just ask
Thoughts on Chien Pao:
Honestly the more I see it the less broken I think it is. Chien hates all the priority moves and body presses flying around, and we have mons like Corviknight and the Donphans who can cleanly stop Chien with a single body press and take their hits. (Great tusk is a little more iffy on taking the hits, and has to survive a damage roll as the OKHO is not Guarateed for Chien Pao on Great Tusk.) Also would like to point out that chien, while stronger than weavile without knock or axel, is still weaker than gen 8 weavile in terms of its ice stab, as triple axel on average is stronger. Also not having knock off keeps chien pao in line pretty well honestly, considering that knock off would likely push it over the edge considering knock off + triple axel made weavile an S tier mon in SW/SH.
As for Gholdengo, we are getting more answers to it when home drops so I would not do anything about it quite yet. And while it is annoying it feels pretty manageable if you have a pokemon that can handle it well like AV Treads or AV Tusk.
Honestly the more I see it the less broken I think it is. Chien hates all the priority moves and body presses flying around, and we have mons like Corviknight and the Donphans who can cleanly stop Chien with a single body press and take their hits. (Great tusk is a little more iffy on taking the hits, and has to survive a damage roll as the OKHO is not Guarateed for Chien Pao on Great Tusk.) Also would like to point out that chien, while stronger than weavile without knock or axel, is still weaker than gen 8 weavile in terms of its ice stab, as triple axel on average is stronger. Also not having knock off keeps chien pao in line pretty well honestly, considering that knock off would likely push it over the edge considering knock off + triple axel made weavile an S tier mon in SW/SH.
As for Gholdengo, we are getting more answers to it when home drops so I would not do anything about it quite yet. And while it is annoying it feels pretty manageable if you have a pokemon that can handle it well like AV Treads or AV Tusk.
Agree with this tier list 100%View attachment 472124
I like the tier list bandwagon so i decided to make mine, theres a few controversial opinions here and there so ill explain my thinking
any questions about the opinion just ask
Chien Pao is too annoying you can find it in every second team and if it will be banned from OU Weavile might be useful again
Chi Yu is dumb especially with choice scarf
I hate it, not a lot weakness, literally OHKO machine
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Basically the regular Bisharp set but with enough speed to hit 171 to outspeed Corviknight and Kowtow Cleave since it doesn’t learn Knock Off. Choice of Defiant or Supreme Overlord is up to you, but SO is preferred since Gholdengo is typically better for keeping hazards up.
Kingambit @ Black Glasses
Ability: Supreme Overlord
EVs: 252 Atk / 116 SpD / 140 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Kowtow Cleave
- Sucker Punch
- Iron Head
- Sucker Punch
Dragapult is hands down one of the mons that deserve more respect in the current meta. But what's Finchinator's argument for dragapult being top 3? Why is dragapult tiered higher than the likes of Roaring moon, Dragonite, Cyclizer, Chien Pao, Annihilape? Does Finchinator say his reasoning for dragapult's tiering placement relative to the aforementioned group of mons in the video by any chance? Being who he is, I'd love to hear out his thoughts on this.
That’s a pretty good set I’ll admit, but I think it can be better optimized. Here’s my spread:
Kingambit @ Black Glasses
Ability: Supreme Overlord
EVs: 252 Atk / 116 SpD / 140 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Kowtow Cleave
- Sucker Punch
- Iron Head
- Sucker Punch
Kingambit @ Sucker Punch
Ability: Sucker Punch
EVs: 252 Atk / 116 SpD / 140 SuPu
Sucker Punch Nature
- Sucker Punch
- Sucker Punch
- Sucker Punch
- Sucker Punch
So there's scattered talk and no thread for it so I figure I'll ask: How are people finding Torkoal and Sun in OU right now? I'm curious since Sun's always felt like the Underdog/Rogue option among Weather which was already more of an uncommon form of offense since Gen 6 made the abilities temporary.
This gen meanwhile Sun gained a slew of potential abusers in Past Paradoxes, plus some obvious Fire-Type standouts, but I'm curious how well Torkoal fares. Mediocre Special bulk and having to choose between Boots and Heat Rock are obvious drawbacks like any Pokemon has, but there's also the interesting conundrum to me of what happens if you run into opposing Past-Mons, who now get a Sun Buff there weren't building around and thus likely benefit immensely from vs your team needing to control the Weather and likely min-maxing around Protosynthesis Breakpoints. Being a Rapid Spinner that melts the Cheese Man is cool in theory though, similar to people trying Defog Talonflame.
This gen meanwhile Sun gained a slew of potential abusers in Past Paradoxes, plus some obvious Fire-Type standouts, but I'm curious how well Torkoal fares. Mediocre Special bulk and having to choose between Boots and Heat Rock are obvious drawbacks like any Pokemon has, but there's also the interesting conundrum to me of what happens if you run into opposing Past-Mons, who now get a Sun Buff there weren't building around and thus likely benefit immensely from vs your team needing to control the Weather and likely min-maxing around Protosynthesis Breakpoints. Being a Rapid Spinner that melts the Cheese Man is cool in theory though, similar to people trying Defog Talonflame.
I feel like how Torkoal has been used in past generation for sun teams, it's been pretty similar the utilitarian reasons behind the set. Nothing has changed in my eyes aside, using it as a Stealth Rocker / Rapid Spinner and keeping it alive as long as possible in order for your team to succeed (if sun based).
This is the set I've been seeing:
Torkoal @ Heat Rock
Ability: Drought
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Lava Plume
- Rapid Spin
- Yawn
I don’t believe he makes any comparison between pult and those pokemons you mentioned in his reasoning for placing dragapult so highly. At least, not in the video. Also, I'll screenshot the top half portion of Finchinator's tier list.
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If we talking about torkoal himself, is pretty bulky, its a good suporter that can take something in
Torkoal @ Heat Rock
Ability: Drought
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Lava Plume
- Earth Power
- Yawn/Clear Smog
This is the set I like to run, while yes, torkoal can spin AND defeats gholdengo, EP gives him a better matchup against Garganacl on an emergency, and clear smog is yawn but not stopped by taunt, but yawn has some benefits like sleep and focing berrys
Kingambit @ Black Glasses
Ability: Supreme Overlord
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Sucker Punch
- Kowtow Cleave
- Iron Head
- Brick Break
Brick Break also does a couple other nice things, mainly for opposing Kingambit, and for out-damaging its Dark STAB against certain opponents if it gets knocked off at some point (like Tera Normal Dragonite), but the main reason you run Brick Break is because it completely invalidates Grimmsnarl. Mashing Brick Break destroys screens, and it's immune to Parting Shot, T-Wave, Trick, whatever. It can click Spirit Break, I guess, but then you risk just dying outright to Iron Head with no screens. Sure, if they click Reflect as you switch in they can try to pseudo-spinblock you, but even with screens up, how many Ghosts do you want to bring in on Kingambit? It's honestly just Ape, but even then, BB doesn't boost Rage Fist and then it's just the normal manner of dealing with Ape with an unboosted Rage Fist.
Don't forget that sun also now has Solar Power Zard at their disposal. Maybe I'm out of the loop and it's actually just horseshit, but no doubt that son of a bitch can rip shit up if you position it well.
any questions about the opinion just ask
Yeah solar power zard hits like a truck but is kinda niche, especially with all the protosynthesis mons.
Basically the regular Bisharp set but with enough speed to hit 171 to outspeed Corviknight and Kowtow Cleave since it doesn’t learn Knock Off. Choice of Defiant or Supreme Overlord is up to you, but SO is preferred since Gholdengo is typically better for keeping hazards up.
Kingambit @ Black Glasses
Ability: Supreme Overlord
EVs: 252 Atk / 116 SpD / 140 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Kowtow Cleave
- Sucker Punch
- Iron Head
- Sucker Punch
That’s a pretty good set I’ll admit, but I think it can be better optimized. Here’s my spread:
Kingambit @ Sucker Punch
Ability: Sucker Punch
EVs: 252 Atk / 116 SpD / 140 SuPu
Sucker Punch Nature
- Sucker Punch
- Sucker Punch
- Sucker Punch
- Sucker Punch
Speaking on Kingambit, i wanna use it, but idk what teammates he could use, what have you guys been using alongside it
The problem with Chien-Pao is it gets priority of its own. It gets both Ice Shard and Sucker Punch at a higher base speed than other priority mons. So you cannot assume you will outspeed it with a +1 priority move or stat boosts. Breloom, which would otherwise beat it with Mach Punch, loses to Ice Shard unless it is at full health and Terastallizes.
It's basically just Extreme Speed and First Impression, which can be played around, that you can count on to beat Chien-Pao. Dragonite and Lokix are respectively the main pokemon who run those moves in OU. The rest, not so much. Scizor can sometimes live a hit with its defense, especially if Chien-Pao doesn't have Sucker Punch and has no priority or just Ice Shard. But you can't assume this.
At the risk of starting another unwanted debate with Gholdengo, there are already enough tools to play around it now. All it does is counter one viable Defogger in Corviknight, and even that is fine if you have U-Turn. The spinners are more numerous than they used to be.
Some people have brought up the core of Gholdengo and Annihilape as countering spinners, but ghosts always blocked spinners and double Ghost isn't a new thing. What is new is Annihilape punishing potential chip with Rage Fist, but this isn't a Gholdengo problem.
Only Breloom's mach punch and Dragonite Espeed still beats it as far as priority goes. And it can tera to dodge it (scizor has been falling in usage). As for body press... What great tusk is using this move, let alone iron treads? Corv is a good check sure but that is all of one. You also have Dondozo as a check and if you can predict, Skeledirge.
The ice stab is just barely stronger and in most match ups the differrence is negligable.
None of Pao checks barring Corv rely on items to answer it so it wouldn't change much. Knock off i mean. Not having it isn't really helping make.it very bearable. Especially since the speed tier is still absurd.
More spinners on paper. In practice only the dons are viable rn.
These posts come and go pretty quickly, but I figured I'd make another post like I did at the start of gen 8 talking about my experience having laddered in the new gen. I played a little over 100 games in a (very) long session today:
In gen 8 I was pretty on the fence with dynamax (as you can see in the linked post) as I felt the meta could be playable with or without it. I am less on the fence this time as I feel tera is problematic, at least in its current form. Tera @ high ladder definitely feels more game-swaying in an unbalanced way than dynamax did. I think a very sizable portion of my losses (and imo the best way to user tera in its current legality) was a bulky setup sweeper altering its typing to eat my checks attack. It would either be winning on the spot ,or much more commonly, doing enough damage to my overall real-time matchup in a way that couldn't be recovered if my opponent played competently. The latter part of this is not uncommon in mons games, but via the avenue of just surprise attacking a would-be check by making a baxcalibur a poison type as it just dd's (one example) feels a bit silly, having played mons competitively for a while now. I'd probably support an overall ban, but I'd settle for non-stab type-changes going out the window. To me it's for sure the most gruesome and actually ire-worthy part of the mechanic in higher level games. There were 3 or 4 game-deciding moments where I was pretty much needing to guess what tera-form kingambit was about to click when faced vs my chien-pao. Sometimes it'd be ghost, sometimes flying (to block eqs typically, but sacred swords too), and sometimes water. For sure frustrating!!!
As for the meta itself, I think chien-pao/chi-yu are pretty busted. I don't mind the gholdengo situation all that much, and don't consider much else busted. Every single chien-pao I saw today was boots, which makes sense given the state of ladder/how prevalent spikestack is. A few games for me came down to chien-pao ties (not many though), and chi-yu feels like the one mon I thought to myself "thank god that's dead" whenever I ko'd it in any given game. The biggest block to chien-pao is surely dondozo but spikestack played competently can wittle it enough. I'm unsure what dondozo i like best rn, as wave crash recoil does matter especially vs spikestack. There's definitely answers to both chien/chi-yu but I don't recall many instances of either not having a fair or stronger presence in a game.
I ran into some pretty good balances that used bulky roaring moon with boots, which definitely seems viable whether as a fat uturner or a bulky dder. It definitely feels like the most versatile mon that can fit on literally any team. HO, stall, balance, whatever. As another note, annihilape does not feel broken to me in the slightest. It can be good but people have learned to play around it. I'd like to see cyclizar gone I think still, or at least tested. No new commentary for this one, just regen sub pass is pretty silly. Best set seems to be boots.
I think the best thing going for this meta is that even with all the blatant tomfoolery, I ran into just about every archetype you could imagine. There are a billion different things that are viable, though I don't think this is dependent on tera in its current form. Stall seems the hardest to pull off, and requires smarter teambuilding than the 6 traditionally fattest mons in the meta. I laddered 35 or so games with a few balances, and 70 games with offense, so i felt the experience adequate enough vs various styles.
I did not have as much fun in this laddering session as I did at the start of gen 8, but hey at least it gave me an opinion. I think tera is fun until you try taking games seriously and just get blown back by a fairy type roaring moon eating your close combat or whatever.
In gen 8 I was pretty on the fence with dynamax (as you can see in the linked post) as I felt the meta could be playable with or without it. I am less on the fence this time as I feel tera is problematic, at least in its current form. Tera @ high ladder definitely feels more game-swaying in an unbalanced way than dynamax did. I think a very sizable portion of my losses (and imo the best way to user tera in its current legality) was a bulky setup sweeper altering its typing to eat my checks attack. It would either be winning on the spot ,or much more commonly, doing enough damage to my overall real-time matchup in a way that couldn't be recovered if my opponent played competently. The latter part of this is not uncommon in mons games, but via the avenue of just surprise attacking a would-be check by making a baxcalibur a poison type as it just dd's (one example) feels a bit silly, having played mons competitively for a while now. I'd probably support an overall ban, but I'd settle for non-stab type-changes going out the window. To me it's for sure the most gruesome and actually ire-worthy part of the mechanic in higher level games. There were 3 or 4 game-deciding moments where I was pretty much needing to guess what tera-form kingambit was about to click when faced vs my chien-pao. Sometimes it'd be ghost, sometimes flying (to block eqs typically, but sacred swords too), and sometimes water. For sure frustrating!!!
As for the meta itself, I think chien-pao/chi-yu are pretty busted. I don't mind the gholdengo situation all that much, and don't consider much else busted. Every single chien-pao I saw today was boots, which makes sense given the state of ladder/how prevalent spikestack is. A few games for me came down to chien-pao ties (not many though), and chi-yu feels like the one mon I thought to myself "thank god that's dead" whenever I ko'd it in any given game. The biggest block to chien-pao is surely dondozo but spikestack played competently can wittle it enough. I'm unsure what dondozo i like best rn, as wave crash recoil does matter especially vs spikestack. There's definitely answers to both chien/chi-yu but I don't recall many instances of either not having a fair or stronger presence in a game.
I ran into some pretty good balances that used bulky roaring moon with boots, which definitely seems viable whether as a fat uturner or a bulky dder. It definitely feels like the most versatile mon that can fit on literally any team. HO, stall, balance, whatever. As another note, annihilape does not feel broken to me in the slightest. It can be good but people have learned to play around it. I'd like to see cyclizar gone I think still, or at least tested. No new commentary for this one, just regen sub pass is pretty silly. Best set seems to be boots.
I think the best thing going for this meta is that even with all the blatant tomfoolery, I ran into just about every archetype you could imagine. There are a billion different things that are viable, though I don't think this is dependent on tera in its current form. Stall seems the hardest to pull off, and requires smarter teambuilding than the 6 traditionally fattest mons in the meta. I laddered 35 or so games with a few balances, and 70 games with offense, so i felt the experience adequate enough vs various styles.
I did not have as much fun in this laddering session as I did at the start of gen 8, but hey at least it gave me an opinion. I think tera is fun until you try taking games seriously and just get blown back by a fairy type roaring moon eating your close combat or whatever.
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On showdown, Cyclizar, Torkoal, and Quaquaval are all considered OU. And there are a couple other niche mons that can be run depending on team comp.
I'm going to expose my overall scrubness here, since I don't actually play OU and just casually watch from the sides... but is that Iron Jugulis placement justified? Is it actually good?
I took a look at its decent stats (122SpA, 108Spe), but what else? It doesn't get Nasty Plot or even Calm Mind, it doesn't get hazards or Roost, it's not particularly bulky, its best STAB move is Dark Pulse and the ever unreliable Hurricane.
It's the one Paradox I really cannot think up a niche for. At best a Specs U-Turner but I feel Iron Moth already does that way better.
Am I wrong? Is there some strat I'm not seeing?
I just had my first experience on the ladder (where I did win the game but really annoyed) where I witnessed Revival Blessing Sleep Talk. My opponent is using Rabsca which is one of the two Pokémon that can learn Revival Blessing. So I take 2 Pokémon of my opponents out, I'm in the driver seat cool. Rabsca comes out and I setup Stealth Rocks, Revival Blessing is used on my opponents side. Cool, no big deal. I go to chip down Rabsca, it rests up. Sleep Talks into Revival Blessing again....revives the 2nd Pokemon that I had killed off.
This is uncompetitve, I stated here a couple of days ago that I don't think Revival Blessing warrants a ban alone but it being used more than 1 time in game in conjunction with Sleep Talk is straight up ridiculous. If there can't be a conjunction ban rule on Revival Blessing + Sleep Talk because it becomes too complicated, Revival Blessing the move needs to be banned outright.
This is uncompetitve, I stated here a couple of days ago that I don't think Revival Blessing warrants a ban alone but it being used more than 1 time in game in conjunction with Sleep Talk is straight up ridiculous. If there can't be a conjunction ban rule on Revival Blessing + Sleep Talk because it becomes too complicated, Revival Blessing the move needs to be banned outright.
bro you didnt even read me disscussing all the hazard removal mons, ALL of them, here, look at this, i made it with love, give me likes
Cyclizar is the only OU mon who can viably run spin that isn't exclusive to a playstyle. Torkoal is sun exclusive and who is running spin on Quaq when it can't do shit to Gholdengo.
Sure... And i applaud the work in the post but i'm not sure what this has to do with anything I said. I mentioned the dons being the viable **spinners** (btw your post has Maushold as "viable hazard removal" but the mon is not a good mon in the tier at all so it really is fringe at best as a remover).
You first said only the Dons. Now you say only Cyclizar, except Sun teams. So this is already getting less and less absolute from your original assertion.
The main reason Torkoal is Sun team only is because its ability literally sets the sun. Technically, you don't need to run a traditional sun team for Torkoal in order to use it. It would just be a waste not to given Fire nukes and all the Paradox mons running around. Torkoal itself is a spinner that is naturally good against Gholdengo, which you'd think would be useful.
So now we are at all the mons I mentioned besides Quaquaval, which can't hit Gholdengo for super effective but can certainly hit it for neutral water STAB or Tera. And we haven't even covered the other niche mons.
I legitimately don't understand why certain people seem to be so self restrictive when dealing with Gholdengo if they find it to be such a problem.
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