Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Update on Post #5186]

[BolTingBlazie]

i had a copy paste error

it is fixed

it was 5-4

Thank you for elaborating

 

[Bakugames]

i was gonna say I worry abt the tera suspect on a meta that's gonna get swept up by the dlc soon, but also I find it hard to believe tera will get "better" or "worse", I think tera as it is rn is how it'll be for this gen, and it's on people to decide if that's ok or not. I agree with a tera suspect sooner than later imo

 

[bigasschungusboi]

Hold on if were gonna suspect anything its gonna be tera not the stupid dog the damn thing can wait

 

[JunkoAJ]

We need a Tera suspect just so people stop complaining about it no matter which way the vote goes lmao. It's just something that is impossible to get people on either side of the coin to budge on, so we just need a vote to (hopefully) end discussion.

 

[Magcargo]

The decision to quickban Urshifu-RS and Volcarona is very surprising. I thought these Pokemon would have been suspect tested first.

What are top players opinions of these Pokemon? Do they agree with the quickbans, or has the council jumped the shark?

 

[oreofestar]

Not to be rude or whatever, but what is even the point of having a survey if a pokemon that y'all didn't deem worth putting on the survey, and a mon that didn't actually get that much support for a ban just get quickbanned from the tier <1 week later without a larger vote anyway.

 

[LoseToRU?]

Fun reminder that no pro-tera player is allowed to say a single thing about Volc and Urshi lmao

This is literally what you wanted

You would play w LC mons in OU if that meant u could keep goofy tera.

 

[JunkoAJ]

Not to be rude or whatever, but what is even the point of having a survey if a pokemon that y'all didn't deem worth putting on the survey, and a mon that didn't actually get that much support for a ban just get quickbanned from the tier <1 week later without a larger vote anyway.

was the first individual Pokemon in survey history to have over 50 written-in mentions

And the council does always vote on everything on the radar anyway to be fair.

Fun reminder that no pro-tera player is allowed to say a single thing about Volc and Urshi lmao

This is literally what you wanted

Not sure this logic tracks - even if you enjoy Tera, there are still mons that are incredibly absurd and meta-warping and don't deserve to be in a metagame where Tera is unrestricted.

 

[BolTingBlazie]

I wonder why ausma voted do not ban on zamazenta-hero this time but voted ban last time? Curious to see why she voted the way she did on hero, and why her stance on it changed.

Fun reminder that no pro-tera player is allowed to say a single thing about Volc and Urshi lmao

This is literally what you wanted

You would play w LC mons in OU if that meant u could keep goofy tera.

Urshifu RS was definitely broken without tera, punching glove + SD was just way too much to begin with and nigh unwallable even without tera

Volc was broken due to tera though, i'll give a bit of credit there

 

[Skitty (Skittyrox)]

who ever came up with this pokemon showdown videogame frigging STINKS!! my friends said smogon is cool but i was trying my childhood team from pokemon brilliant diamond. turns out infernape? BANNED. staraptor? BANNED. dialga? BANNED.

WHY ARE ALL THE COOL POKEMON BANNED???????

is it cause they are attackers and smogon continues to lobby around toxic pokemon like toxapex (pun TOTALLY intended!!)..?

I am serious, I would like to have fun playing Pokemon but you people at Smogon just make it plum frickin impossible.!

So first off, Infernape isn’t in SV, so you’ve impressively lost all credibility before you even began your argument. I read off a post of irrelevant BDSP Gliscor calcs to prove Gliscor was broken and it somehow still sounds more believable than this To that, hats off to you.

Second off, it turns out when a mon can take over matches and teambuilding solely by existing it probably isn’t a good idea to have it in a metagame. Offensive mons are way more spammable and splashable than defensive mons. Defensive mons need to stay healthy throughout a game to maintain purpose, meanwhile offensive mons can outright win games if you aren’t careful enough or just outright force you to make unfavorable trades. This is why they get banned more often than defensive mons. If you don’t like it, then please refer to https://www.smogon.com/forums/forums/ubers.727/

 

[Rootb]

We need a Tera suspect just so people stop complaining about it no matter which way the vote goes lmao. It's just something that is impossible to get people on either side of the coin to budge on, so we just need a vote to (hopefully) end discussion.

I mean, the first vote was for this, too, and that certainly didn't quiet anyone down. They see Tera ban as getting 39% of the vote, and conveniently ignore that 70% of that 39% wanted Tera to remain a mechanic in their tier, with slightly less guesswork.

Tera's re-suspect probably won't change anything, sadly. They'll just want a third with DLC.

 

[Pabloaram]

Please STOP ASKING FOR TERA SUSPECT/BAN!!!!

They already tell us that nothing happen until World Cup end...

Stop crying bc his favorite mon is banned

 

[artificialdeath]

What tier are you even playing lol

Infernape is currently not released in Scarlet and Violet, Dialga has a ridiculous BST and typing that would break the metagame, and idk what you're smoking because Staraptor is perfectly legal (actually it's kinda bad). I get this is bait but try harder next time.

In fact, I'm 99% sure we have a BDSP Ubers format if you want to play that. Well, BDSP Ubers is dead but you can still play Gen 4 Ubers. Or NatDex Ubers.

it's really shitty bait that maybe would have worked 10 years ago lol

 

[BolTingBlazie]

I mean, the first vote was for this, too, and that certainly didn't quiet anyone down. They see Tera ban as getting 39% of the vote, and conveniently ignore that 70% of that 39% wanted Tera to remain a mechanic in their tier, with slightly less guesswork.

Tera's re-suspect probably won't change anything, sadly. They'll just want a third with DLC.

Part of it is definitely because people have changed their minds, I am seeing a lot of people who wanted to keep tera leaning more towards ban lately who were previously pro-tera. The other part is it very well could change anything because people change their mind all the damn time, and I have even heard some people say stuff like, I wish I voted ban/restrict on tera after they voted to keep it. So the re-suspect could very well change everything, my point being: YOU DON'T KNOW if it will change anything or not, because it very well could change the meta

 

[VTMagno]

Even though I agree with the Shifu ban overall, feels really weird to leave its fate up to a quickban instead of a suspect when it barely got complaints in the survey.

 

[ima]

well as one of the voters of dnb for volc, i'm surprised by the result myself - i do indeed think it has broken aspects, just thought if anything:
ban zama-h shifu before WCOP, and suspect volc down the line. but obviously i was very wrong. if you're wondering how we got from 0-9 to 7-2, i'm on your same boat, i'm pretty shocked by it as well

initially, from the vote here, i voted DNB on hero, to be blunt with you i regret a lot of these votes days later, there was just little time to understand the meta completely - with world cup coming up, home dates changing every now and then, it was a pretty stressful week. however, i'm glad we got to fix most of these things with the bans they deserve - except hero remains.

this thing should probably be gone. with tera its probably way too much for most teams to deal with, has the speed of a demon and there's sets such as cb that can punish your typical "switch-in", with an ungodly speed of 138. i've said before i'm close to calling the mon a cheat code so yea, thats how i feel about the dog rn.

shifu i think rightfully deserves the ban - in my eyes, more than volcarona, sd + tera just runs through everything. i genuinely believe if this mon wasnt discussed upon it would be running the tier by itself in the next couple weeks. i am very open to resuspecting both shifu and volc in the future.

my other thoughts basically are:

DNB sneasler (ban dire claw) - sneasler is actually a really cool pokemon, dire claw just feels very controversial.
DNB light clay - why anyway
DNB ursaluna - STRONG but more than doable

last but not least,
DNB Tera

 

[Pabloaram]

Even though I agree with the Shifu ban overall, feels really weird to leave its fate up to a quickban instead of a suspect when it barely got complaints in the survey.

I feel like the council wanted to stabilize the tier the most before World Cup so they qd the most broken mons. I think Urshifu RS can be retested when the tier is more stable

 

[Cheryl.]

I'm guessing after World Cup ends the Tera suspect will be happening soon after. It feels pretty much inevitable at this point now that the tier is starting to get rid of even the more "borderline" broken Tera threats such as Volcarona. I wouldn't be surprised if more discussion on Kingambit with Tera happens after the Zama-H suspect too. The mechanic is truly leaving its ugly marks on the meta and I'm glad pretty much everyone is seeing it.

Also, even if you want/don't want Zama-H gone, you can still abuse it on the suspect ladder when it happens! FREE POINTS

 

[AM]

The decision to quickban Urshifu-RS and Volcarona is very surprising. I thought these Pokemon would have been suspect tested first.

What are top players opinions of these Pokemon? Do they agree with the quickbans, or has the council jumped the shark?

Shifu wasnt balanced at all especially in a metagame with tera and its access to new additions it got, despite whatever meme counter people were coming up with for Urshifu that weren't even answers to begin with. Volcarona if it is a problem, is a tera issue more so than Volc, but it's w/e I don't care too much about this ban.

Good for them (the council).

 

[TCTphantom]

Fun reminder that no pro-tera player is allowed to say a single thing about Volc and Urshi lmao

This is literally what you wanted

You would play w LC mons in OU if that meant u could keep goofy tera.

Yes, this is a healthy mindset. Scapegoat every pro Tera player when there was one (shifu would be dumb probs potentially) ban related to it today.

I’m pro Tera, and even I want Tera to get a revisit sooner rather than later. Ideally once wcop is done. It has nothing to do with these bans in particular. If Zamazenta and Sneasler were axed instead I’d still want Tera to get a look in the future. The only two of the bans so far 100% happened due to Tera are Volcarona and Regieleki. Every other banned Pokémon would be on the radar or banned with or without Tera.

It’s fine to dislike Tera. I like the mechanic and even I want a suspect test soon. But this is just in bad faith and comes off as rude.

 

[kosecant]

Fun reminder that no pro-tera player is allowed to say a single thing about Volc and Urshi lmao

This is literally what you wanted

You would play w LC mons in OU if that meant u could keep goofy tera.

Cool to see my post got removed without warning while stuff like this is allowed to stay

(unless it was a server side error of course)

 

[tigers jaw]

Not surprised by Urshifu leaving but I’m shocked the council went ahead with banning Volc. Even reading through the reasoning this decision doesn’t make much sense to me. Yes, the mon has always been a horrible match-up fishing monstrosity, but even with the introduction of Tera there are plenty of mons that can counter it, Clod, Heatran, Gastro and Pex to name a few. Tera Ground/Grass can get it past some of these but overreliance on Tera is surely a massive downside, and frankly Volc isn’t sweeping that often without it. The mon is one-dimensional and while a correctly timed Tera can make it difficult to stop, I wouldn’t consider it broken. Certainly not as broken as the ID doggo. A suspect test would have been better imo especially since there wasn’t a massive level of community support for a quickban.

>there are plenty of mons that can counter it
>lists mons that lose to the most commonly-ran sets, whilst admitting that they also lose to volc
>one-dimensional mon with like 5 different viable tera types & 3 different sets, all combinations of which have wildly differing answers

sure, i’ll just run gastro+tran+dnite+dirge to cover my bases in the volcarona matchup

 

[awyp]

well as one of the voters of dnb for volc, i'm surprised by the result myself - i do indeed think it has broken aspects, just thought if anything:
ban zama-h shifu before WCOP, and suspect volc down the line. but obviously i was very wrong. if you're wondering how we got from 0-9 to 7-2, i'm on your same boat, i'm pretty shocked by it as well

initially, from the vote here, i voted DNB on hero, to be blunt with you i regret a lot of these votes days later, there was just little time to understand the meta completely - with world cup coming up, home dates changing every now and then, it was a pretty stressful week. however, i'm glad we got to fix most of these things with the bans they deserve - except hero remains.

this thing should probably be gone. with tera its probably way too much for most teams to deal with, has the speed of a demon and there's sets such as cb that can punish your typical "switch-in", with an ungodly speed of 138. i've said before i'm close to calling the mon a cheat code so yea, thats how i feel about the dog rn.

shifu i think rightfully deserves the ban - in my eyes, more than volcarona, sd + tera just runs through everything. i genuinely believe if this mon wasnt discussed upon it would be running the tier by itself in the next couple weeks. i am very open to resuspecting both shifu and volc in the future.

my other thoughts basically are:

DNB sneasler (ban dire claw) - sneasler is actually a really cool pokemon, dire claw just feels very controversial.
DNB light clay - why anyway
DNB ursaluna - STRONG but more than doable

last but not least,
DNB Tera

I loved the post until you made an edit and said DNB Tera (myb)

 

[LoseToRU?]

Not sure this logic tracks - even if you enjoy Tera, there are still mons that are incredibly absurd and meta-warping and don't deserve to be in a metagame where Tera is unrestricted.

I've seen countless, "play around it" "at least you forced a tera" "skill issue" and all the other tera cope.

All the pro-tera arguments that applied to Volc applies to the other broken tera mons.

How is Volc any different than Moth?


Iron Moth @ Booster Energy
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 124 Def / 132 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fiery Dance
- Energy Ball
- Dazzling Gleam
- Tera Blast

You get one F-dance boost and this thing is cleaning most teams.

You could even run the bulky morning sun + acid spray set for the same effect as QD.

What about Nite, Band Pult?

All the tera logic behind why Volc was fine is applied to these mons as well.

Yes, this is a healthy mindset. Scapegoat every pro Tera player when there was one (shifu would be dumb probs potentially) ban related to it today.

I’m pro Tera, and even I want Tera to get a revisit sooner rather than later. Ideally once wcop is done. It has nothing to do with these bans in particular. If Zamazenta and Sneasler were axed instead I’d still want Tera to get a look in the future. The only two of the bans so far 100% happened due to Tera are Volcarona and Regieleki. Every other banned Pokémon would be on the radar or banned with or without Tera.

It’s fine to dislike Tera. I like the mechanic and even I want a suspect test soon. But this is just in bad faith and comes off as rude.

Instead of repeating myself, I'll just repost my debunk of "We're only losing 2 mons!!1!" bullshit.

I want the most Pokémon possible when I'm playing Pokemon, hot take, I know.

Let me break this goofy ahhh post down

1) Pre-Home meta was broken checks broken, and if we never got Home/DLC then mons like Gambit, Val, Nite, Garg, etc. would have 100% been looked into eventually and possibly banned due to tera. I don't want to speculate which ones, but that meta was not lasting in the state we knew it. Home and DLC on the horizon was the reason that dead meta wasn't ripped apart by tera bans.

2) Oh, only Leki, nice. We lost a fast spinner that scares out several mons, including ghosts, and let's you keep momentum via Volt Switch. If you actually ladder, you know we have a hazards problem. HDB are becoming increasingly popular because there are times where you just can't mitigate hazards. Leki would have been really nice.
I'm sure I don't have to spell out for you how literally a single mon can drastically change a meta. Imagine gen 5 w/o Magnezone, or gen 8 w/o Clef. I'm not saying Leki was on par with those, but the meta is different now, straight up. Electric moves aside, it was a fast screen setter, and spin + explosion would let you remove hazards and keep momentum even vs a Tusk. We have less options now in builder, simple as that. We lost a tool. Don't shrug it off like we lost nothing.

3) I'm not going to argue much for Espa, but it was a key mon in not letting stall build lazy unaware cores and Curse Dozo their way to easy wins in this offensive meta.

4) By your own words you say future bans may happen. Spoiler, they will. We are still in Home meta infancy, since it's literally just now going to have time to develop w/o Uber mons running around. We're seeing issues already, but in 6-9 months I promise you it won't just be Leki that gets pushed out via tera.

5) I don't think you actually care how many mons we lose. If you're cool w losing Leki (fast spinner, screens utility, specs breaker, revenge killer) then you don't care about losing mons. If/when we lose Volc, it'll be "Leki, Espa, and Volc.. and that's it" and you'll shrug like that means nothing. And then when the next mon is pushed out, you'll just expand your list, and shrug a little harder, cuz you don't actually care what we have to do to keep tera.

6) Or, when we lose something that isn't as clear cut broken due to Tera as Leki, cuz nothing will be more obvious than Leki, there will be mental gymnastics about how it was already broken. "No dude it wasn't losing a major weakness and gaining a massive damage buff that pushed out Urshi, it was SD!" and we'll say, it was def a combo of both.. and then the convo will get muddled and pointless and you'll walk away swearing you're right.

7) Losing mons is just a fraction of the anti-tera logic. It's literally just one aspect of how this gimmick is unhealthy for the meta. Even if we "only" lose 5 mons to tera when its all said and done, that's not some gotcha moment. As I've said, those are tools we lost from our toolkit and their absence drastically changes the meta in some way- but even with that said, losing mons is far removed from the main argument and key complaints.

All of this applies to you as well.
"Only Leki, only Volc"
Ah yeah, a great spinner and revenge killer.
Nice, another Val, Gambit and Tusk check down, that should improve our meta.

Be honest, as a pro-tera player you don't care how many mons we lose, do you?

I'm not being rude, I'm saying anyone who is pro-tera can not be mad about losing mons to tera.
It's not even a question we lost Volc to tera, and you like tera more than keeping mons.
I'm not sure why that would be offensive to you, honestly.

 

[ima]

I loved the post until you made an edit and said DNB Tera (myb)

my only edit was zamas speed tier, i will say DNB Tera until its backwards