Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Update on Post #5186]

[powergo1]

I love it when absentions make it such that a 6-3 ban doesn't get a high enough vote percent

 

[Finchinator]

Speaking for myself: I wish more things got banned. Specifically I find Chien-Pao to be ridiculous as is, but especially broken in a world without Magearna. I also think Sneasler is not meant to be in a serious competitive tier as it currently stands with Dire Claw. And as I explained in my post yesterday, I was hopeful for the Zamas to go. Putting a couple dozen hours into pre-HOME vote, rollout, posting, playing, radar, and post-HOME vote leading to only Magearna being banned here is kind of a nightmare scenario to me if I am being honest. It is frustrating. If I am ignoring your PMs, I hope this answers them (because I know there are a LOT of you).

I know a lot of people are frustrated it was only one ban and a lot of people want a more advanced metagame -- I really do get it and can relate. WCOP is coming up, the ladder is getting infuriating, and plenty of other big OU things are on the horizon, so having a competitively stimulating format is important.

The timeline of this HOME release sucked, but there are no excuses when everything is on the line and we have the chance to vote on Pokemon. We will have another vote this week, we will have a community survey before the vote, and we are hopeful that the next stretch brings an improved metagame.

 

[MattC (Banned)]

Magearna has been banned: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/magearna-is-banned-from-sv-ou.3722439/

GOOD RIDDANCE

Now then,

your next White Garfield

 

[UnusualBoy]

Mag gone means good news for Chien Pao and the Zamas and a bit of bas news for Luna.

 

[Mijzelffan]

I would love it if more council members besides Finch and Ausma could share the reasoning behind their votes.

 

[ianlazerbeem]

Magearna has been banned: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/magearna-is-banned-from-sv-ou.3722439/

noooo

 

[TCTphantom]

Chien-Pao won't last long at this rate. Meanwhile kind of surprised Sneasler is just sort of sitting in the middle of the threshold (regardless of if the mon or move is banned, the move alone is what I emphasize as the "why").

Curious to see how the subsequent Meta goes. Magearna being removed puts Zama and Chien-Pao on nice footing with a major bulky resist to their movesets gone. Wonder how removing a major Steel type will affect the standing of Hero vs Crowned since this makes Z-C the new Bulky-Offensive Steel (by which I mean Bulky and attacker, it's still fast of course), but with a less effective match-up into SS Chien-Pao, so Hero's still preferred if you expect Shield dog to check Sword cat.

Mag gone means good news for Chien Pao and the Zamas and a bit of bas news for Luna.

I actually disagree that the Magearna ban was good for Zamazenta. I think it’s a net negative for both forms, especially Hero.

Magearna brutally crushed fat teams. Anything that wasn’t HO was going to crumble at the feet of its sets. Specs, while not as busted as last Gen, was crippling for anything not HO. Its setup sets were also brutal to deal with. Magearna effectively choked out any defensive teams from the format. Just by having Magearna in the format, you served up HO teams to Zamazenta on a silver platter.

Without Magearna, fat teams have so much more breathing room. Trick Room and Ursaluna are notably worse without Mag enabling them. Bulkier teams can handle Zamazenta better when it’s no longer backed by a Magearna nuking everything in sight. I think that Zamazenta Hero will be fine in a post Magearna world. Crowned I can still see being a problem, but less HO is a net negative for Crowned.

 

[furyofyuriy]

why does current ou council want to waste their time so much not banning clearly broken (and in the case of zamazentas and chien pao, self inflicted errors by the council) that theyre going to just ban in a week anyways

what is the point?

Because when new toys are brought in mid generation, it is worth reexamining old mons that were broken to see if that remains the case.
Eleki was never Ubers prior so that just made sense, even if the outcome was predictable. The Zama's were wild choices, but their performance in Ubers last gen was so bad they were Ubers in name only.

Furthermore, banning to many things to quickly is equally as bad. If after this Magerna ban we find that Chien-Pao and Sneasler become more manageable due to Magerna potentially checking something that balances these mons presence, then it is worth looking at.

 

[Alternator]

Teams being freed from needing multiple checks for Magearna - one for Specs, one for setup, at a minimum - means less need for stacking SpD in general, making it easier for fat and balance to improve their match-up with the powerful physical attackers.

I expect Chien-Pao to dominate and be the next ban, but at least it's checks and counters can be brought in without giving Magearna a free switch and setup opportunity, and maybe that's enough.

 

[MilkyWay]

Honestly I’m not that annoyed with the outcome of the council vote. Personally, I would’ve voted for Chien Pao and both Zamas to go as well, but I’m confident they’ll all be banned within a week or so anyway.

Democracy can appear to suck during times like this, but I think it’s a necessary evil. For a thought experiment, look at each individual council member’s votes and imagine if that person’s individual votes were the tiering policy today instead. In what percentage of scenarios would you be satisfied? For me, I’d only pick Ruft because everyone else voted to ban something I wasn’t sure about yet.

For example, I would’ve been pretty salty if Light Clay, something that has been around for generations, was banned in Week 1 of a new metagame via a quick ban without widespread community agreement (especially when it’s worst abuser, Mag, was also banned). I also haven’t made up my mind on Sneasler and Ursaluna and would like to see them in a metagame without Mag, CP, and the Zamas before we ban them. From following this forum, the community seems pretty spilt on Sneasler and Ursaluna as well. Keep in mind Light Clay, Sneasler, and Ursaluna all received multiple “Ban” votes and even Urshifu-RS received one.

Point being that having council members vote on our quickbans isn’t perfect, but it’s the best option we have. Suspect tests take too long and if we only had a couple council members dictate our policy it seems they’d likely ban stuff that doesn’t have widespread community agreement.

EDIT: yeah “Democracy” isn’t the best word choice on my part but point still stands

 

[KlefkiHolder]

Democracy can appear to suck during times like this, but I think it’s a necessary evil. For a thought experiment, look at each individual council member’s votes and imagine if that person’s individual votes were the tiering policy today instead. In what percentage of scenarios would you be satisfied? For me, I’d only pick Ruft because everyone else voted to ban something I wasn’t sure about yet.

my guy, 2/3 vote not resulting in a ban by an appointed council for something that was literally banned w >60% in a (democratic) suspect test is literally undemocratic lol

 

[Jappithegreat]

any idea when its going to update i just fought a magearna in ou?

 

[awyp]

any idea when its going to update i just fought a magearna in ou?

Sometime today, usually takes a couple of hours.

 

[Eeveeto]

Can't say I disagree with the Ban. Magearna was fine for me in my ladder journey, but that is cause I prepared very well for it and Stored Power sets was literally useless vs my team, while other sets were not strong either. Despite that, I think that in the future Magearna would have showed it's true strength and would have eventually broken the meta. The Ban was rushed, but sometimes preventive measures are the best, especially in a close to Wcop period.

Disagree with Ursaluna outcome, agree with the rest. Won't be surprised if Chien Pao doesn't last another week though. Hopefully at least one of the Zamazentas ends up staying, same for Sneasler. I don't think Watershifu is currently a problem, but I hate that Mon since last Gen, so won't be sad at all if it leaves.

 

[BolTingBlazie]

Can't say I disagree with the Ban. Magearna was fine for me in my ladder journey, but that is cause I prepared very well for it and Stored Power sets was literally useless vs my team, while other sets were not strong either. Despite that, I think that in the future Magearna would have showed it's true strength and would have eventually broken the meta. The Ban was rushed, but sometimes preventive measures are the best, especially in a close to Wcop period.

Disagree with Ursaluna outcome, agree with the rest. Won't be surprised if Chien Pao doesn't last another week though. Hopefully at least one of the Zamazentas ends up staying, same for Sneasler. I don't think Watershifu is currently a problem, but I hate that Mon since last Gen, so won't be sad at all if it leaves.

I think hero might stick around, but crowned/pao absolutely have to go.

Those two already fell just short of the ban hammer, whereas hero got far more do not ban votes intersteringly, so it seems like there is enough support to keep hero around.

Watershifu will definitely be problematic down the line and 100% deserves a suspect though

 

[Pipotchi]

1 week later: omg chien pao is so strong who could have forseen this

 

[ianlazerbeem]

1 week later: omg chien pao is so strong who could have forseen this

if it takes a whole week I s2g

 

[Tio Chico]

Honestly I have no problem anticipating the obvious midweek, especially seeing the numbers in Chien-Pao and Zama-C.
Just surprised by Volcarona 0 votes.
But Magearna someway overshadowed the rest imo, so let the council do what the council must do. The less long and obvious suspects, better. Until we get to the elephant in the room; Terastal.

 

[Pabloaram]

Why???
Why and Zama-Clown doesn't got banned by a 6-3 and why people on the council can abstain on each and still be part of the council???

 

[ianlazerbeem]

Teams being freed from needing multiple checks for Magearna - one for Specs, one for setup, at a minimum - means less need for stacking SpD in general, making it easier for fat and balance to improve their match-up with the powerful physical attackers.

I expect Chien-Pao to dominate and be the next ban, but at least it's checks and counters can be brought in without giving Magearna a free switch and setup opportunity, and maybe that's enough.

Ah yes Chien-Pao's checks and counters such as

 

[Mega Breloom]

Only Magearna was the one to reach enough votes to get axed? That's wild.

It looks like the same will happen with pre Home Pao, the council isn't going to ban it themselves until the community ask them for months to get a suspect.

 

[Mimikyu Stardust]

MAGEARNA GOT BANNED?!

alright gonna rant a bit here cause ive realized that magearna in itself, is not broken, but also helps the tier NOT be overrun by broken mons. Hear me out. I've predominantly used 3 teams, its these 3.

(pokepaste broken rip)
https://pastebin.com/R5aQT3te
https://pastebin.com/UhcTHLKe
https://pastebin.com/3GsUnV82

Magearna is only broken with double dance, and double dance is only broken under screens. Recently ive been getting back into mons after taking a break since my tourban ended. First few days of a gen is always fun trying out new things and seeing what people used. I saw Vert peak number 1 with a broken screens team so i tried it out myself. It was really, really good. So good that i got top 8 laddering on my phone while buying groceries. but the thing is, while it was magearna that won a lot of those games, it was mainly because of screens. Screens enabled SOOO many pokemon to be broken, from things like Ursaluna brawling with everything, Volcarona getting +2 and winning, Articuno-Galar getting speed boost and killing everything with stab stored power, Zamazenta-Crowned being even MORE unkillable and one-shotting everything with body press and of course, magearna.

If you have used magearna outside of screens, be it assault vest, leftovers, stored powered, specs, you notice that it is NOT broken, its just really good. It has its counter in other magearna, volcarona, slowking-galar, and just out offensing it. Playing around non screens magearna feels very similar to how it feels to play around magearna in SM, its a dangerous nuke that if you play around it, you will be fine. I've been playing alot with this team and got to top 8 with it, but i will say its pretty poorly built as it doesnt have a magearna counter... however after playing a lot with it, i find it that it can perfectly counter non-screens magearna very well, be it stored power or specs, Poison ting-lu and volcanion is sufficient enough with my other breakers being powerful enough to muscle through it. So the problem is just screens.

Not only that, magearna is like gen 8 landorus in the sense that it checks SO MANY pokemon that without it, will be banworthy.

• Chien-Pao
• Hoopa-Unbound
• Both Enamorus forms
• Both Zamazenta forms
• Iron Valiant
• Roaring Moon
• Dragonite
• Dragapult
• Sneasler

Those are what i think will push it, some lesser mons will be REALLY good and equally hard to check

• Hoopa-Unbound
• Moltres-Galar
• Hatterene
• Zarude
• Liligant-Hisui
• Articuno-Galar

And so many more i can mention but at this point it would be spam. While you can run mons that beat everything above like zama for chien pao, corviknight for iron valiant, magearna is just so much more splashable and makes building so much easier. I can check valiant, chien pao, dragapult in one slot with mage instead of running mons like pex + corv and make my team a whole lot more passive or go all out offensive all the time.

Checking magearna outside of screens as ive said in this post, isn't hard and screens enables SO MANY pokemon to be broken. With the list above, banning magearna will bring a lot more harm than good, so many pokemon will be more potentially banworthy.

So my proposal for now is to SUSPECT TEST LIGHT CLAY, BAN ZAMAZENTA CROWNED (will explain in another post), and UNBAN MAGEARNA.

 

[Ast0rga]

This is how pure evil looks

 

[Mojo-Robo]

View attachment 522856
This is how pure evil looks

The true evil is inaction

 

[DaemonChop]

Some explanation from other council members on the logic behind mons like Chien Pao, Sneasler, or Zamazenta being okay would be appreciated, it feels like half the council has been by far the most transparent and open its ever been but the other half is totally silent and secret at all times