Starmie (Full Revamp)+

[Jumpman16]

Uh... what?

He's my friend. If he's advising me to stop debating a point, he's not 'moderating' me. It's advice.

I kind of think it's a bit of a stretch to say that his observation about the last 2 paragraphs of your original post is not mini-modding either. In no way is he asking you to stop or otherwise acting with pretend authority, but rather stating his opinion that the kind of comment is kind of 'uncalled' for in a debate about a Starmie move set. The fact that you are a moderator when he's saying something's uncalled for in a debate he probably saw as irrelavent, as your post was debating about a set. It is a blurry line, though, as one could interpret that as moderator advice / recommendation to a user and thus it would be commenting on moderation rather than a post, but SDS could have assumed that it was not that.

The bottom line isn't 'forgive and forget' as he feels it's his place to say. Knowing your history, I made and have continued to make the conscious choice to moderate in this thread rather than in PM, again (check your inbox if you need a reminder). While there is no way for me to know whether x user is a personal friend of y user, it doesn't even matter, because the only way SDS could know your entire history and what mods and admins have told you in infraction messages and otherwise is if you have forwarded every single one of them to him or let him sign into your account, which is problematic for entirely different reasons. And if he does not know your entire history, like I do, then he is therefore not qualified to 'suggest' anything to me on how I am choosing to moderate right now. The aim is that you will take warnings more seriously if they are not-so-private, because private ones do not seem to be working as well as we'd like.

And I am sure you do not realize this because you still do it all the time, but please stop prefixing your comments with 'Uh...'. It is very condescending and the exact same thing MoP used to be guilty of unknowingly.

If you noticed this before, why did you not point this out to me?

Chris, think about that...why should I have to point it out to you, especially if you've turned the corner as you would have me believe? And 'completely illogical' is tame in comparison to 'horribly wrong', as if anything your comments should have been in the opposite order if you are indeed going to make the same mistake twice, right?

If you read the SUbjective changes post, I quoted the part of the analysis that implied it was somehow more effective than Surf ('Grass Knot is because of Pursuit and Tyranitar in general; even Surf doesn't OHKO' was the rough, paraphrased wording). I read that as 'You need Grass Knot to OHKO Tyranitar', which is incorrect. My post there (unlike the line you're quoting) was more reasonable, as what I thought it WAS saying was completely illogical. The explanation was confusing, obviously, as it confused me.

And as I have stated, you should have assumed that the writer (I) knows Surf does more damage than Grass Knot to Tyranitar, and therefore wondered what could have been meant instead of writing it off as illogical. And before you suspect I am rehasing this for no reason, I am belaboring the point not to continue to 'defend myself' but to caution you on reading analyses more thoroughly before making your own conclusions about what they mean if you're going to do revamps and analyses in the future. I'm not sure how you get 'You need Grass Knot to OHKO Tyranitar' when I clearly stated in the second sentence that 'will never be OHKOed by a 328 SpA Choice Specs Surf', which clearly indicates that nothing will OHKO.

Anyway, while I think I've been 'getting better' over the last 2 months in particular (that's the only questionable thing in the time period immediately after that Wobb thing, and I've been more active than normal), it's good to get a reality check so I can get better. That being said, uh, can we just talk about Starmie now pleease?

If there's anything left to talk about with regard to Starmie, someone will post, as usual.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

"The floggings will continue until morale improves," is that it? Calling people out in a thread like this doesn't make them want to shape up as you think it does. All it does is make otherwise reasonable members resent the moderating staff, an action that often does far more harm than it does good. No matter how reasonable they appear to you, unreasonable actions like completely derailing a thread, especially one that the person in question is using to contribute to the site, often do more harm than good and reflect poorly on the moderating staff. I can appreciate that Chris is oftentimes capable of making out-of-line comments like the one that sparked this most recent debate, but a public humiliation isn't going to do anything but increase the likelihood of future conflicts.

 

[Caelum]

Reflect and Light Screen can be used in conjunction to support the team, but Deoxys does that better.

Deoxys-S is no longer relevant since its uber. I've seen screens / recover / surf Starmie work before, I don't know if it warrants its own set but just thought I'd throw that out there.

 

[cim]

Chris, think about that...why should I have to point it out to you, especially if you've turned the corner as you would have me believe? And 'completely illogical' is tame in comparison to 'horribly wrong', as if anything your comments should have been in the opposite order if you are indeed going to make the same mistake twice, right?

That's beside the point. If you see me doing something inappropriate that's line-skating, I'd appreciate it if you at least PMed me. Despite what you may think I'm trying to improve, and feedback is always appreciated (though I'd prefer not in the middle of an analysis on Starmie)

And as I have stated, you should have assumed that the writer (I) knows Surf does more damage than Grass Knot to Tyranitar, and therefore wondered what could have been meant instead of writing it off as illogical. And before you suspect I am rehasing this for no reason, I am belaboring the point not to continue to 'defend myself' but to caution you on reading analyses more thoroughly before making your own conclusions about what they mean if you're going to do revamps and analyses in the future. I'm not sure how you get 'You need Grass Knot to OHKO Tyranitar' when I clearly stated in the second sentence that 'will never be OHKOed by a 328 SpA Choice Specs Surf', which clearly indicates that nothing will OHKO.

When I first started competitive Pokémon, the thread led me to believe this. Another user at the time (I forget who) also read it as such. After finding out that it wasn't true, I thought it would make sense to emphasize that point. As I've said before, the attack was unwarranted and I'm sorry. That still doesn't change that the wording was confusing to a new player.

If there's anything left to talk about with regard to Starmie, someone will post, as usual.

I'd think an argument about the viability of an old set and my qualities as a user would deter people from posting other legitimate comments.

 

[Jumpman16]

I'd think an argument about the viability of an old set and my qualities as a user would deter people from posting other legitimate comments.

Why would anyone else be deterred from posting if they aren't liable of being contentious, condescending or off-topic?

 

[Jumpman16]

'The floggings will continue until morale improves' is that it? Calling people out in a thread like this doesn't make them want to shape up as you think it does. All it does is make otherwise reasonable members resent the moderating staff, an action that often does far more harm than it does good. No matter how reasonable they appear to you, unreasonable actions like completely derailing a thread, especially one that the person in question is using to contribute to the site, often do more harm than good and reflect poorly on the moderating staff. I can appreciate that Chris is oftentimes capable of making out-of-line comments like the one that sparked this most recent debate, but a public humiliation isn't going to do anything but increase the likelihood of future conflicts.

You literally don't know what you're talking about, and I'm baffled at how you think you know more about moderating Smogon and its effects than I since I've been a mod/admin three times longer than you've even been a member. I have referenced MoP a few times in this thread. After many private warnings by myself and the staff, I called him out in our Inside Scoop forum. He has since turned his act around, does not resent me nor I him, and we are actually very, very good friends now because of the same underlying qualities that I knew were being overshadowed by his then-abrasive and condescending personality.

You are the one going completely off-topic here by defending Chris and doing nothing else, when, as I have stated, I have belabored the point because it is apparent Chris missed the meaning behind a point in an analysis he wanted to revamp, which in turn led to improperly explaining the reasoning behind why Psychic is a better idea than GK (it's not because Starmie can/should Surf and not use move four till Tyra is dead). If you want to continue to publicly question me and my choice of moderation, and go further off-topic, that's up to you.

Anyway Chris, I have a Starmie-based question for you. With regard to Choice Specs, you mention Psychic does SE damage on Heracross and Gengar. Did you run any calculations? Modest Specs Surf does 104% minimum to Gengar, and Timid Specs Surf will OHKO a 100% HP Gengar about two-thirds of the time. If this was a subtle way of recommending Timid over Modest, so that Starmie is always faster than Gengar and therefore can/should use Psychic as its fourth move if it wants to be a revenge killer of Gengar, that's fine, but I'm not sure many of our readers will pick up on that implication without further elucidation.

I am also not sure when Choice Specs Starmie will ever have anything to do with Heracross, since it's rarely ever switching in, and if so it was killed or is Scarfed (as it was some 80% of the time last month), and if locked into Close Combat isn't staying in on a revenge-set Starmie. You should probably mention the other merits of Psychic rather than note two pokemon it hits for SE when they are largely moot points.

Another thing: 'Trapping Scizor in particular can switch in with impunity if Starmie lacks HP Fire.' Actually, my calculations reflect that if Trapping Scizor actually does switch in with impunity on Modest Specs Surf, it will take 65-77% and not be able to do anything to Starmie but Bullet Punch. Timid Specs Surf does 60-71%. Even Modest Specs Thunderbolt does 44-52%, in no way a safe switch for even the 322HP/237SpD probably-LO Scizor. Not saying HP Fire isn't a good option on Choice Starmie, but you should probably edit that out.

You should also probably mention that Modest is the best option for Choice Scarf Starmie, unless you feel that it doesn't matter and that it plays exactly identically to the Choice Specs Set, in spite of Modest Scarf Starmie still being faster than all the threats you mention in relation to Choice Scarf Starmie ('all Sky Shaymin, Gengar, Heatran, Salamence, and Gyarados').

 

[cim]

When I wrote the Psychic comments, Timid was recommended over Modest I think. I'll add that to the Gengar line.

They both have equal merit, Timid means you can respond to more while Modest does more when you force switches.

On the Scarf set, Timid is used for Modest Scarf Shaymin. I should mention that. The sets basically are similar enough that it doesn't really justify a split in description.

Thanks! Updating imminently.

 

[Colonel M]

I'm going to propose the following:

[SET]
name: Late Game
move1: Hydro Pump / Surf
move2: Thunderbolt
move3: Ice Beam
move4: Recover / Psychic / Rapid Spin
item: Life Orb / Expert Belt
nature: Timid
ability: Natural Cure
evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

Change to this:

[SET]
name: Special Sweeper (your name for it was also fine but you're emphasizing this as a lead too so Late-Game Sweeper might not be the best name IMO)
move 1: Hydro Pump / Surf
move 2: Ice Beam
move 3: Thunderbolt / Grass Knot
move 4: Recover
item: Life Orb / Expert Belt
ability: Natural Cure
nature: Timid / Modest
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

So here's why I'm suggesting this:

Grass Knot: It will hit most bulky waters with better damage. This is barring Vaporeon and Tentacruel of course. And I'm not sure if it will even 2HKO those, but it will definitely be a second reason Tyranitar would want to stay far, far away from this set.

No Psychic / Rapid Spin: I feel these could be added into SET COMMENTS, if anything. They're not really Starmie's best moves on this set (Hydro Pump is doing massive damage to most Fighting-types anyway) though I will agree that its best against Kingdra (though I'm doubting its taking too many Ice Beams or Grass Knots either). Rapid Spin seems like a poor option. A Genar, Tyranitar, or possibly Scizor lead could pose trouble against this. And you're also running a gamble against Azelf which if it is slower the first turn and then faster the next, you could lose your vital sweeper by an Explosion (this is assuming Starmie is first on the very first turn and second on the next turn) due to the Speed tie. One Explosion is what I'm saying.

Modest:I really think this should be an option. Despite losing to Infernape and Gengar, it obtains much more Special Attack and can still outpace Timid Zapdos on down which is still impressive. A lot of Gengars could carry Choice Scarf. And then Infernape is still doing a lot of damage with Grass Knot if you decide to switch this Starmie into it (and not recommending it either).

 

[cim]

The "better damage" is almost always a matter of 5 base power (Milotic and Suicune). Since you can choose attacks I'd see even less reason to use it.

Recover is fairly awkward / hard to use on that kind of set, hence the proposed attacks as alternates.

Psychic / Rapid Spin for Set Comments.

I'll consider / make changes.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

Hmm, I'm surprised there aren't any posts about Signal Beam.

Modest Expert Belt 252 SAtk Starmie vs. 252 HP/0 SDef Celebi 360 - 427 (388 avg) damage. 28.21% chance of OHKOing under normal conditions, 74.36% in weather, and 100% with Stealth Rock up. With Life Orb that's a 79.49% of OHKOing in normal conditions and a OHKO if weather or SR hits Celebi.

Signal Beam from a252 SAtk Timid Starmie with Expert Belt does 326 - 388 damage to a 252 HP/0 SDef Celebi and with Life Orb Starmie does 356 - 420 (384 avg) damage.

Signal Beam from a 252 SAtk Timid Starmie with Choice Specs is a guarenteed OHKO (408 - 484, 444 avg damage) on Celebis that have no SDef EVs.

With Choice Specs even Modest Starmie cannot OHKO Celebi with Ice Beam, so I think Signal Beam is at least worthy of a mention. I mean you could pick Celebi off by surprise when it switches in to try to Heal Bell or something.

 

[cim]

You're always faster than Celebi, so I don't see the point for just one Pokémon.

 

[Imran]

Aren't moves with limited coverage like that usually dubbed "Other Options," would it just be worth making just a small mention of it there.

 

[Colonel M]

Grass Knot is fine for Other Options or SET COMMENTS. I'm just stating it was another option for the set.

 

[darkie]

so have you made any decisions about this yet?

 

[cim]

Mae some revisions per Jumpman and Colonel M.

 

[Jumpman16]

modest scarf starmie does 43-51% to trapping scizor with surf, which is a 2HKO 98.36% of the time with SR up. i wouldn't associate that with "impunity"

you still need to edit out the swampert grass knot reference, and you still need to recommend modest if you're using scarf, unless you actually think that's a toss-up

 

[Bourbon]

outrunning Choice Scarf Gengar doesn't matter because you can't OHKO it without psychic, so I agree with Jumpman this time, Scizor is the number one threat right now, he's way more important than the number 10 gengar.

 

[cim]

Timid was good before Skymin got banned to outrun Modest Scarfmin, now Modest is better. Thanks for the catch Jump.

 

[maddog]

I disagree with CM on the idea of not putting Rapid Spin on "Late Game Starmie". Most of the time, stall teams use Rotom-forme as a Rapid Spin blocker, with Starmie will 2HKO with Hydro Pump. After being hit by Hydro Pump, Rotom will probably switch out, which allows you to get a crucial Rapid Spin in and save the game possibily. LO Starmie is also one of the best leads I've used, because Rapid Spin can not only finish off a Focus Sash (and can't be Taunted), it gets rid of those pesty Stealth Rocks. You mention the idea that Azelf has a possibility of being faster. Spinning has gotten even harder to do with the Rotom-formes floating around, and the fact that this set can not only pose a great threat to the most common spin blocker, but also pull off the necessary Rapid Spin is significant, and Starmie is unique in this reguard. Other people agree with me on this point as well. I agree with CM that the name should be changed (probably back to Life Orb or Special Sweeper), becuase the dual puporse of the set is not fully represented by the name "Late Game Sweeper"

 

[Caelum]

I disagree with CM on the idea of not putting Rapid Spin on "Late Game Starmie". Most of the time, stall teams use Rotom-forme as a Rapid Spin blocker, with Starmie will 2HKO with Hydro Pump. After being hit by Hydro Pump, Rotom will probably switch out, which allows you to get a crucial Rapid Spin in and save the game possibily. LO Starmie is also one of the best leads I've used, because Rapid Spin can not only finish off a Focus Sash (and can't be Taunted), it gets rid of those pesty Stealth Rocks. You mention the idea that Azelf has a possibility of being faster. Spinning has gotten even harder to do with the Rotom-formes floating around, and the fact that this set can not only pose a great threat to the most common spin blocker, but also pull off the necessary Rapid Spin is significant, and Starmie is unique in this reguard. Other people agree with me on this point as well. I agree with CM that the name should be changed (probably back to Life Orb or Special Sweeper), becuase the dual puporse of the set is not fully represented by the name "Late Game Sweeper"

I added this to the set comments of that set and made some other adjustments in the Set Comments and put it on-site; it's largely the same though (I think I addressed Jumps concern about GKs description a bit better, that was the main content thing I changed). Just thought I would response to maddog :)

 

[maddog]

lol thanks Caelum

 

[Jumpman16]

i edited the part about choice starmie being weavile and tyranitar bait and just said pursuit bait in general, mainly because starmie is weavile bait regardless for obvious reasons. also, as it read, it implied that the user knows that his/her opponent has either or both of those pokemon, when the idea is that generally, if your 4th move is psychic, it shouldn't be used until you know whether pursuit threats are even on the opponent's team, because being locked into psychic as your 4th move is riskier than being locked into any other move regardless of set

i also had to edit in a part stating that scarf starmie should be modest, because there was still no mention of there being a difference between how Scarf and Specs actually play even if they would share the same moves. if anyone can post a reason that timid scarf is better than modest scarf that's cool, but as it (still) stands no one's given a reason so i am making the distinction myself

i am also removing the mention of trapping scizor and switching in with "impunity" as i hinted in my last post about it. trapping scizor can clearly be a good starmie revenge killer but that goes for any pursuit pokemon depending on what move starmie used. so, assuming that it's switching into an unlocked starmie as the original reference implied, scarf thunderbolt does 29-35% which is up to 70% damage. modest scarf surf is still the same 98% 2HKO with SR up. and even trick means that starmie is now going to be able to attack with a LO (suggested item) Modest Surf on trapping scizor who will have to use Bullet Punch since LO Modest Surf does 57-67%...so the only safe switch in is Ice Beam considering trick is the recommended fourth move option...and this all only applies to scarf starmie, not specs. trapping scizor is tailored more for the uber environment anyway

chris, this was your responsibility to finish up and i'm disappointed that caelum had to make changes to this and add them to the site himself (as did i). why didn't you finish this even after darkie and i repeatedly reminded you to make the many changes suggested?

 

[Caelum]

i also had to edit in a part stating that scarf starmie should be modest, because there was still no mention of there being a difference between how Scarf and Specs actually play even if they would share the same moves. if anyone can post a reason that timid scarf is better than modest scarf that's cool, but as it (still) stands no one's given a reason so i am making the distinction myself.

There is no other reason then the one you mentioned.

i am also removing the mention of trapping scizor and switching in with "impunity" as i hinted in my last post about it. trapping scizor can clearly be a good starmie revenge killer but that goes for any pursuit pokemon depending on what move starmie used. so, assuming that it's switching into an unlocked starmie as the original reference implied, scarf thunderbolt does 29-35% which is up to 70% damage. modest scarf surf is still the same 98% 2HKO with SR up. and even trick means that starmie is now going to be able to attack with a LO (suggested item) Modest Surf on trapping scizor who will have to use Bullet Punch since LO Modest Surf does 57-67%...so the only safe switch in is Ice Beam considering trick is the recommended fourth move option...and this all only applies to scarf starmie, not specs. trapping scizor is tailored more for the uber environment anyway

I misread your previous post, I read it as saying a Choice Specs Surf 2HKOs not Choice Scarf which is why I still left that there for trapper versions. My mistake. Considering that, I realized just how bad HP Fire is as an option on this set so I removed it to Other Options entirely. Thanks for catching that.

edit: You write extremely well btw Jump. Just thought I would point that out lol.

 

[cim]

chris, this was your responsibility to finish up and i'm disappointed that caelum had to make changes to this and add them to the site himself (as did i). why didn't you finish this even after darkie and i repeatedly reminded you to make the many changes suggested?

In my defense, I was busy with some schoolwork and was going to edit this, but when I got back to it I had found it was already *+ed and thus was out of my hands.