Seems to me that stall can't be dominant if all of the most dominant Pokemon are offensive powerhouses.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion (Usage stats in post #944)
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
- Status
This is the weakest stall has been in basically a decade lol. It lost Chansey / Blissey who have been staples that entire time, it lost MSableye which could absorb Trick/status and keep hazards off, it lost Pursuit mons which kept Gengar from being a jerk, it lost Skarmory (Corviknight plays a different role cos no Spikes / WW), it lost SDef Heatran, Clef can't run Softboiled etc. Unlike offensive mons, which often has rather replaceable counterparts albeit maybe weaker or missing a coverage option, stall has typically relied on a handful of Pokemon which are extremely unique and don't have direct replacements. There's nothing in the game that even comes close to matching what Chansey, MSableye, Heatran bring to the table and as a result stall has basically no defensive options for some of the top threats in the game now. And that isn't even mentioning Excadrill being top 3 in usage with buffed Rapid Spin, Court Change addition and other changes that make hazard removal stupidly easy.
Honestly the only stall running around at the moment is like Seismitoed / Ferrothorn / Toxapex / Corsola / Corviknight / Ditto and variants of that - if you seriously get frustrated by these cores enough to come and complain about it despite the ridiculous wealth of offensive mons you have available then I don't know who you're trying to call a braindead noob lol.
Darmanitan, Dracovish, Hydreigon, Gengar, Gyarados (depending on coverage), Reuniclus/ Hatterene, Trick users, LO Clefable, BU Corviknight, the rare-ish Bulk Up Grimmsnarl, and basically anything offensive with Substitute all dunk on stall super hard right now because the old school defensive options are gone and there's not really anything that replaces them well. So I think a lot of people here would have a lot of respect for people who are topping the ladder with stall considering how disadvantaged it seems at the moment.
edit: and note I reckon stall is probably still in a really bad place even with a dynamax ban, so if you think that we have to keep around dynamax just so stall isn't dominant - all the mons I've listed above bar Gyarados don't even need dyna to be amazing against stall
Last edited:
If you wanna get a kick out of some underappreciated Dynamax Pokemon before it (probably) gets the boot, give ol' Shiftry a try:
Shiftry @ Life Orb
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Solar Beam
- Heat Wave
- Extrasensory / Hurricane
Shiftry is normally pretty bad and to be quite honest this is no exception. Unfortunately, Chlorophyll users were the one weather abusers left in the dust, since they aren't really able to support themselves in the way others like Barraskewda and Excadrill can. Shiftry stands among them, though, since it learns Heat Wave, it can Dynamax and set itself up some sun, activating its own Chlorophyll. Extrasensory is there to pummel Toxapex harder and Shiftry is real frail, so cutting out priority is helpful. Hurricane, though, can help boost its Speed even further. Pair it with Dugtrio. Or just use Charizard.
Shiftry @ Life Orb
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Solar Beam
- Heat Wave
- Extrasensory / Hurricane
Shiftry is normally pretty bad and to be quite honest this is no exception. Unfortunately, Chlorophyll users were the one weather abusers left in the dust, since they aren't really able to support themselves in the way others like Barraskewda and Excadrill can. Shiftry stands among them, though, since it learns Heat Wave, it can Dynamax and set itself up some sun, activating its own Chlorophyll. Extrasensory is there to pummel Toxapex harder and Shiftry is real frail, so cutting out priority is helpful. Hurricane, though, can help boost its Speed even further. Pair it with Dugtrio. Or just use Charizard.
The new Eject Pack items seems really interesting/good with weather setters in tandem with moves that lower stats (like Superpower). Basically it acts as a strong one-shot U-Turn, giving you momentum and allowing you to safely bring in weather sweepers.
This set is solid. Go for Aurora Veil, then do a slow Leaf Storm. Eject Pack will switch you and let you safely bring in your sweeper.
Same idea. Tyranitar's bulk and low speed really work well for this.
Set rocks and then escape with the overheat. Hits hard because it's 130 STAB + Sun boosted.
Code:
Abomasnow @ Eject Pack
Ability: Snow Warning
- Leaf Storm
- Aurora Veil
Code:
Tyranitar @ Eject Pack
Ability: Sand Stream
- Superpower
Code:
Torkoal @ Eject Pack
Ability: Drought
IVs: 0 Atk
- Overheat
- Stealth Rock
Posting this here since it covers too many pokemon to go asking around in their respective threads and not being a full team means RMT is out of the question. If there's a better place for this, please tell me.
I currently have these 3 sets on my upcoming team, and I'd like to know that would synergize with them.
Grimmsnarl (M) @ Light Clay
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Reflect
- Light Screen
- Spirit Break
- Taunt
Corviknight @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Body Press
- Defog
- Taunt
- Roost
Polteageist @ Focus Sash
Ability: Weak Armor
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball
- Giga Drain
- Stored Power
- Shell Smash
I currently have these 3 sets on my upcoming team, and I'd like to know that would synergize with them.
Grimmsnarl (M) @ Light Clay
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Reflect
- Light Screen
- Spirit Break
- Taunt
Corviknight @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Body Press
- Defog
- Taunt
- Roost
Polteageist @ Focus Sash
Ability: Weak Armor
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball
- Giga Drain
- Stored Power
- Shell Smash
Thunder Pwoell
Banned deucer.
hell ya lmao y'all know I love this mon. personally id run growth - the thought being that growth doesn't tell your opponent if youre special or physical and it adds a layer of complexity which gives you an advantage, you also can run mixed. but hell ya!If you wanna get a kick out of some underappreciated Dynamax Pokemon before it (probably) gets the boot, give ol' Shiftry a try:
Shiftry @ Life Orb
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Solar Beam
- Heat Wave
- Extrasensory / Hurricane
Shiftry is normally pretty bad and to be quite honest this is no exception. Unfortunately, Chlorophyll users were the one weather abusers left in the dust, since they aren't really able to support themselves in the way others like Barraskewda and Excadrill can. Shiftry stands among them, though, since it learns Heat Wave, it can Dynamax and set itself up some sun, activating its own Chlorophyll. Extrasensory is there to pummel Toxapex harder and Shiftry is real frail, so cutting out priority is helpful. Hurricane, though, can help boost its Speed even further. Pair it with Dugtrio. Or just use Charizard.
So this looks like a screens offense, meaning setup sweepers that benefit from the added bulk would get the most out of it. Gyara, Lucha, Drill would all be great additions of course, though if you're looking for less known sweepers then maybe Hatterene with trick room, nasty plot hydreigon, or togekiss with nasty plot and air slash. A ditto would be advised as well just so that you aren't smashed by infiltrator dragapult who has the tools to clean this team up if he has the right coverage, assuming your opponent weakens grimmsnarl.
You could also pair a strong physical attacker that's fighting here, just to slam dark types. Conkeldur with a guts AV set would be interesting, since it could soak status while offering priority for the team. After that, maybe a physically defensive siesmitoad for the electric and water immunities, and it would give you someone to set up rocks with.
Something like Grimmsnarl, Corviknight, Polteageist, Conkeldurr(AV), Seismitoad(Water Absorb, physically defensive), and Togekiss(Nasty Plot, Air Slash, Ground immunity)
This gives you a few pivots to sponge most of the meta, and it's not standard as hell either. Obviously the team would still have weaknesses, mainly gara if I'm honest. Maybe putting T-Wave on Grimmsnarl could help with that? You could also replace conkeldur with ditto for a more dynamax resistant team overall.
Wrote this up in a few minutes, so could be full of errors and the like. Let me know if it helped you out. Normally I wouldn't put this much teambuilding emphasis and just recommend you got to a rate-my-team thread, but this thread has been dominated by dynamax discussion forever. Even if it's bending the rules a bit, it's nice to talk about something else for a change, and who knows. Maybe we'll talk about teams and whatnot for a bit.
Hey there, I really appreciate the tag! You're exactly correct. If people were making new, interesting points about dynamaxing I'd be more than open to reading discussions about it. However, at this point people are now just resorting to ad hominem, and it's just counterproductive. It's also mentally taxing to sift through all that repetitive nonsense. We all don't need to hear the same three talking points on both pro-ban and anti-ban sides repackaged in different ways, each more lackluster than the last.
I'd like to address this comment too. I do agree that Tyranitar and Exca cores are incredibly common right now. However, this is why I noted on my Shedinja post that it fits well on rain teams. Think of it as a pseudo-Gen 5 weather war since weather is so common right now. I'm not saying Shedinja doesn't need support. I'm saying that it needs far less support and that the metagame itself is far more kind to it.
As for your dynamax argument. I'd like to point out that Shedinja is meant to be a late game wincon / cleaner, so most likely your opponent has already dynamaxed by the time you bring out Shedinja. A lot of the times, the Pokemon dynamaxing don't even have specific coverage for Shedinja. Some of the most common max moves like Max Knuckle, Max Mindstorm, Max Geyser, Max Hailstorm, etc can't touch Shedinja. (Also weather doesn't activate if the max moves are blocked by Wonder Guard as far as I'm aware, so unless it's super effective it's not activating Sand or Hail). Not to mention that with the way things are progressing, Dynamax will likely be suspected and Shedinja will probably get even better overall.
Shedinjas completely unviable right now. I looked through several of the teams I have and every member has a way to hit it SE. Nvm ttar is on every team and court change exists making even old magic bounce strats obsolete for it. I cant see how would be able to function at all. Its not nearly enough tools to make this work even without dynamax
For everyone saying stall is weak or at least STALLISH TEAMS, I mean toxa ferro pyuku corvi mandibuzz ditto all that bullshit.
You haven't played in top ladder probably because it's complete cancer and viable, I'm also running balance teams for the stupid argument "just run broken shit".
Also if "stall" wasn't broken why is it full at the top?
Idiots be running sub wow disable DRAGAPULT like c'mon that pokemon wasn't intended to do that...
If dynamax is so broken and randomic why are the same people constantly at the top?
Wouldn't it be more chaotic? Also last meta I played was B/W OU(played some ORAS OU but barely any and don't remember it too well) so I have no idea what we lost/gained, I just play teams I like and learnt this new meta and I'm giving a FRESH opinion of someone who only knows this.
So you're saying that everyone should run HO because APPARENTLY it's broken yet most teams on top ladder seem stallish/balance/bulky offence?
Why is that?
I'm trying to understand, like you, why everyone is so upset about dynamaxing on which you can adapt and play around usually while a very annoying archetype is viable.
I prefer getting 6-0d by an ape using gyara max airstream and wasting 2 minutes of my life rather than grinding for 25 minutes because the idiot is convincing me my PP will finish faster than his(I always do my math and just quit in case...).
I can show a bunch of replays, maybe I'll make a video with all 150+ turns battles.
You haven't played in top ladder probably because it's complete cancer and viable, I'm also running balance teams for the stupid argument "just run broken shit".
Also if "stall" wasn't broken why is it full at the top?
Idiots be running sub wow disable DRAGAPULT like c'mon that pokemon wasn't intended to do that...
Please I've had 200 turns battles 3 times in a row even if they didn't run "stall" decks per say that's their main purpose, it's really frustrating because I always run bulky offence etc.. teams without many setuppers.
If dynamax is so broken and randomic why are the same people constantly at the top?
Wouldn't it be more chaotic? Also last meta I played was B/W OU(played some ORAS OU but barely any and don't remember it too well) so I have no idea what we lost/gained, I just play teams I like and learnt this new meta and I'm giving a FRESH opinion of someone who only knows this.
So you're saying that everyone should run HO because APPARENTLY it's broken yet most teams on top ladder seem stallish/balance/bulky offence?
Why is that?
I'm trying to understand, like you, why everyone is so upset about dynamaxing on which you can adapt and play around usually while a very annoying archetype is viable.
I prefer getting 6-0d by an ape using gyara max airstream and wasting 2 minutes of my life rather than grinding for 25 minutes because the idiot is convincing me my PP will finish faster than his(I always do my math and just quit in case...).
I can show a bunch of replays, maybe I'll make a video with all 150+ turns battles.
I will try to build a solid team around this idea and push top ladder with it, seems really good thanks!The new Eject Pack items seems really interesting/good with weather setters in tandem with moves that lower stats (like Superpower). Basically it acts as a strong one-shot U-Turn, giving you momentum and allowing you to safely bring in weather sweepers.
This set is solid. Go for Aurora Veil, then do a slow Leaf Storm. Eject Pack will switch you and let you safely bring in your sweeper.Code:Abomasnow @ Eject Pack Ability: Snow Warning - Leaf Storm - Aurora Veil
Same idea. Tyranitar's bulk and low speed really work well for this.Code:Tyranitar @ Eject Pack Ability: Sand Stream - Superpower
Set rocks and then escape with the overheat. Hits hard because it's 130 STAB + Sun boosted.Code:Torkoal @ Eject Pack Ability: Drought IVs: 0 Atk - Overheat - Stealth Rock
Proably building around torkoal.
Thunder Pwoell
Banned deucer.
I’m also at the top of the ladder and have a completely different experience than you lol. by all means, please share your replays
the sub disable set is super heat btw
edit: turns out I’m actually higher on the ladder than him lmaooooo
Dark Nikuman : https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ just send me your username
TURBODERP : idk the evs but from what I saw, it was Leftovers, substitute, wilo, hex, and disable. definitely had some hp
Last edited:
I'm probably really unlucky, anyway to upload downloaded replays?
Or else I'll just spend 20/30 minutes tomorrow and try to record them and upload on my youtube channel.
I'm super sad I didn't download the ones I lost in most cases.(rage quits)
What's the set? Sub Disable Wisp Hex or something (Darts/Shadow Ball)? Is it HP invested? Definitely curious.
Dragapult @ Leftovers
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Will-O-Wisp
- Hex
- Disable
one of the most annoying things
I'm gonna have to disagree with some of you on stall. I think it's equal parts people adjusting to the new meta and Dynamax keeping it in check.
Last gen, you had to worry about megas, Z-move lures, and hyper offense from a good variety of special and physical attackers. So it was harder to key in on just a few things and get away with it. This gen? All but a few of the special attackers are bulky and slower. It's mostly the physical attackers running wild, especially with the high speed builds.
Both Galarian Corsola and Cursola can be incredibly hard to deal with in their own ways. Both are new to this gen. You say there are no replacements for the older gen pokemon we lost. And yet here we have two of the best defensive pokemon in this generation and each is potentially pretty broken. And there will likely be several more. You didn't even touch on old staples like Pyukumuku, Umbreon, or Shuckle. It's only a matter of time before people key in on what works best with stall in this gen as well, if they haven't already. At least one poster above me disagrees with you that it hasn't happened already, at least to some extent. While I can't confirm or deny his claim, I can say that I believe it is only a matter of time if Dynamax is banned.
The trouble with this is most of the best offensive pokemon right now are physical attackers. So you don't really need to prepare all that much for special attackers. Maybe bring one special wall. But honestly, bringing physical and mixed walls only is most likely fine. You bring most of the countermeasures like burn, foul play, counter, etc. for physical attackers and you only need a few gimmicks for the few special attackers that are being problematic.
Last gen, you had to worry about megas, Z-move lures, and hyper offense from a good variety of special and physical attackers. So it was harder to key in on just a few things and get away with it. This gen? All but a few of the special attackers are bulky and slower. It's mostly the physical attackers running wild, especially with the high speed builds.
You say that but everything you listed is potentially excellent stall. Toxapex is literally the single greatest defensive mon from last gen. Ferrothorn has been a great physical wall for awhile, and the meta is easily more physical attacker oriented. Seismatoad with Water Absorb is one of the better counters to a much of the meta right now.
Both Galarian Corsola and Cursola can be incredibly hard to deal with in their own ways. Both are new to this gen. You say there are no replacements for the older gen pokemon we lost. And yet here we have two of the best defensive pokemon in this generation and each is potentially pretty broken. And there will likely be several more. You didn't even touch on old staples like Pyukumuku, Umbreon, or Shuckle. It's only a matter of time before people key in on what works best with stall in this gen as well, if they haven't already. At least one poster above me disagrees with you that it hasn't happened already, at least to some extent. While I can't confirm or deny his claim, I can say that I believe it is only a matter of time if Dynamax is banned.
Most of the more dangerous common threats are fast. Very few of the fast threats are special attackers. The ones that are slower are more bulky and many are tank hybrids that could be used on stall. The ones that rely on stat buffing can be beaten by unaware, clear smog, or haze, unless they get a speed advantage taunt. Corviknight is really the main issue there since it is immune to Clear Smog and often runs Taunt. Of course, that is also seen on stall so...
Eject pack, is hands down, stupid as fuck. First off, we're assuming its not coming in on a resisted so you don't waste an Eject Pack. Next, you'll be forced to switch out even when it isn't optimal too. Let's say you mis-predicted w/ Tyranitar and it hit Malamar. Now, theoretically, you should move to Drill to start sweeping. But then Malamar fucks you up w/ that Superpower. It's just so much could go wrong. Super niche, and even that niche doesn't even have a solid chance of working.The new Eject Pack items seems really interesting/good with weather setters in tandem with moves that lower stats (like Superpower). Basically it acts as a strong one-shot U-Turn, giving you momentum and allowing you to safely bring in weather sweepers.
This set is solid. Go for Aurora Veil, then do a slow Leaf Storm. Eject Pack will switch you and let you safely bring in your sweeper.Code:Abomasnow @ Eject Pack Ability: Snow Warning - Leaf Storm - Aurora Veil
Same idea. Tyranitar's bulk and low speed really work well for this.Code:Tyranitar @ Eject Pack Ability: Sand Stream - Superpower
Set rocks and then escape with the overheat. Hits hard because it's 130 STAB + Sun boosted.Code:Torkoal @ Eject Pack Ability: Drought IVs: 0 Atk - Overheat - Stealth Rock
tl;dr no
Thunder Pwoell
Banned deucer.
what you said doesn't make any sense and doesn't even align with the point he is making, like at all lol. first off hes talking about getting weather setters out safely and quickly, 2, even in your own example, if Godzilla hit the malamar he'd be able to switch to drill immediately so what the fuck are you talking about lmao
Eject Pack sounds really cool for a few mons, but I think the biggest issue I have with it is the item slot. Some teams want Light Clay for Aurora Veil or Smooth Rock for Sand (or Heat Rock / Damp Rock), which means you're a bit more limited on time and it's a one-time use.
That said, there are some cool interactions with it. Reminds me a bit of Eject Button Toxapex, which you probably could do a similar combination since Dugtrio is still around.
That said, there are some cool interactions with it. Reminds me a bit of Eject Button Toxapex, which you probably could do a similar combination since Dugtrio is still around.
it still takes a lot to keep shedinja alive. if you're using it against sand and you have rain, you basically can't send it out at all because they'll just switch into ttar to kill it. it's also gonna take a lot of doubling and correct predictions to basically keep it alive lol
How are people dealing with stuff like LO Clefable, CM Hatterene, NP Togekiss with defensive teams. I'm running something quite semi-stallish and I basically lost a couple games out of 50 in the first week as I was overcompensating for all the "broken" things people were spamming initially. But now, it feels the meta has changed a lot and people are running a lot of stuff that is a nightmare for defensive teams to play against, and now I'm having a much tougher time. Are there any solid responses to these things? I'm also feeling the pain of not having Water Absorb whenever Dracovish appears so I guess it's time to get on that train.
I said it earlier in this thread maybe a week ago but I think it's coming true even quicker than I expected. I love G-Corsola and think it's really strong, but I had a feeling it would become much weaker over time. It provides a pretty easy switch in for things that are actually a nightmare to deal with on a slow, stallish team like Sub Hydreigon, Hatterene, LO Clef etc. It still does a great job at checking the "fast-broken-dynamax" stuff but has a lot of trouble switching into Dracovish and Banded Darm. As a spin blocker, I think it's still one of the best in the business but that god damn Court Change move is starting to give me genuine nightmares, and Cinderace doesn't even have its good ability yet.
I said it earlier in this thread maybe a week ago but I think it's coming true even quicker than I expected. I love G-Corsola and think it's really strong, but I had a feeling it would become much weaker over time. It provides a pretty easy switch in for things that are actually a nightmare to deal with on a slow, stallish team like Sub Hydreigon, Hatterene, LO Clef etc. It still does a great job at checking the "fast-broken-dynamax" stuff but has a lot of trouble switching into Dracovish and Banded Darm. As a spin blocker, I think it's still one of the best in the business but that god damn Court Change move is starting to give me genuine nightmares, and Cinderace doesn't even have its good ability yet.
Dragapult @ Leftovers
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 224 HP / 252 SpA / 12 SpD / 20 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hex
- Disable
- Will-O-Wisp
- Substitute
This or 124 speed for Gengar , it's disgusting powerful (it wins against bunker less pex )
Doing great so far ( Gen8garbage , for some replays, only a few aren't private )
Edit : tiburon bebe is using a different spread from what I'v seen playing him multiple time on different alts , check there for more replays I guess ?
If some people are interested , I'm dropping the team
Last edited:
What’s the reason for running Infiltrator over cursed body? Cursed body (in theory) is a free disable 30% of the time. Or am I missing something like it not activating on sub, or Pokemon such as sub bulk Corviknight?
Moody no longer boosts Evasion [or accuracy]; and thus Moody is no longer a violation of the Evasion Clause.
Also; nothing with Moody gets Baton Pass. Smeargle is gone.
If Octillery; Remoraid; Snorunt and Glalie with the nerfed Moody prove to all be problems then Moody will almost certainly get looked at again. [If it's just one of them that's busted with it; then it's an individual pokemon ban] but I highly doubt without the potential for Evasion rises that Moody is going to be much trouble.
Right this is my last post on this, we can agree to disagree but just wanted to say a couple things. Stall and semi-stall have traditionally been a preferred playstyle of mine so I can answer some of these. I'm not laddering with it now because yes its boring lol.
Stall is used on ladder because, almost irregardless of how good it is in the metagame, tons of ladder players don't have the mentality to actually beat it reliably. This has always been the case - as evidence, I was saying the same thing even back in like 2012 (self-plug but see my RMT from some of the BW2 suspect tests and look at how I describe SDef Hippowdown + basic partners back then - https://www.smogon.com/smog/issue25/featured_rmt_ou "Its thanks to this excellent mixed bulk that SDef Hippowdon can almost single-handedly win the first 15 battles on a fresh alt on the ladder, or the first round or two in a tournament - new-ish players just have no idea how to beat him"). The exact same has been true of defensive cores in the almost 8 years since - against inexperienced players the metagame is almost completely irrelevant because you have to have the correct mindset to play against stall and consistently win.
Just about every top player on this site has at some point said "stall is broken" when they were still getting good, I guarantee it. But I also guarantee they all look back and laugh at how silly they were to think that. Learning to play against stall is one of the steepest learning curves in the game but once you clock it you never look back. The reason you're getting heat is because a lot of people have learnt to play against stall in Gen 7 and Gen 8, and by comparison are now finding it easier to play against because they don't just have those catch-all answers like Chansey around anymore. This is why Clefable, Hydreigon, Togekiss, Gengar are so scary right now, along with the obvious Dracovish and Darmanitan. To people who played previous generations, the idea that Gen 8 stall is broken doesn't make much sense.
Re: "weird" Dragapult sets - Gengar has done exactly the same thing in the past to huge success so its not that unheard of. Yes there's a fine line between creativity and gimmicky, but this is definitely an example of the former. Certainly not worth calling people idiots over it lol
Re: having to run HO to beat stall - no, stall atm uses whirlwind Mandibuzz as a catch-all against boosting Pokemon that they haven't accounted for, so you can take advantage of this. E.g. CM Haterenne or CM Thunder Reun are really really tough. LO Clefable is a great mon for balance that also basically autowins against common stall. Stall also very reliant on Toxapex so Dugtrio + partner is scary. Trick users are highly effective now there aren't mega stones that just invalidate it. U-turn + Volt switch are excellent in a format with easy hazard removal. There's also very very little distribution of Heal Bell and Aromatherapy within the usable mons, meaning luring a Toxic onto Seismitoad, Quagsire or Mandibuzz is good if you're willing to play the long game.
Yes those mons I listed are all excellent individually, but it doesn't by default mean you can just stick them all on a team and have everything covered.
Corsola-G and evo are definitely not broken, meta has adapted to them incredibly quickly and they are set-up fodder for mons that stall already dislikes. Umbreon and Shuckle are not even comparable substitutions to what we had in previous generations meanwhile offense literally gaines mons going around with 2 Choice Bands and Gyarados that gets faster with Bounce, along with a new CM Reuniclus alternative with STAB Fairy.
I'm not sure why we're talking about speed here, because even "slow" special attackers like Togekiss outspeed everything on stall. Other examples are LO Clef, which does not care about being slower than any stall mons because they actually can't do anything to it except maybe Corviknight Steel Wing or something weird?
Last edited:
- Status