Stage 2 Thread
List of Games
Alright folks, after a lengthy and arguably imperfect voting period we have narrowed our list of games down to just under 300. This pool will eventually be further condensed to 100 games through a process of discussion and grading, which will happen in the next thread. For now, we have a greater task at hand: deciding how to rate these games in a fair and comprehensive manner. In this thread, we will do just that through a series of discussions.
Now, in order to create a rubric that fairly judges all games and is not favored toward a particular genre or game type, we must come up with a number of categories that we agree are essential in determining a game's quality. Obviously a game has many parts like its Music, Graphics, Plot, Platform, etc, that all contribute to its overall quality. We must define what makes a game great, and properly weight these categories so an accurate measure of overall quality can be achieved.
The first step of this Stage will be determining which categories to judge games on. We will accomplish this by compiling input from our users, then through discussion we will narrow and adjust the list down to a manageable core of aspects we can all agree on. At first, this will simply be done a bit like a nomination. If you feel a certain category should be added to the rubric, please post it and explain why. I think a reasonable goal for a final list would be somewhere between 7-10 categories, so try not to be overly specific in your examples. Some suggestions will be grouped into other more general categories in the end so our rubric does not become too complex to execute.
Before we begin, I'll lay out the ground rules:
1. No Flaming. Everyone's opinion counts here, and I expect us all to act like adults. If you disagree with someone's input, please keep your head on your shoulders and out of your ass, and discuss it rationally. Flaming and bickering will result in me discarding your input completely.
2. Be detailed. Don't just post and say "___________ should be included" and not tell us why. If you feel a game should be evaluated based on a certain aspect, explain why that aspect is essential in determining a game's value. Unsubstantive posts will be ignored and frequent offenders will be barred from future discussion.
3. No resurrecting old discussions. Do not debate the game list itself in this topic. I don't care if you are still pissed that a certain game got eliminated or was not given a chance at redemption like you asked. The list is the list, and it will not be changed.
4. Obligatory 4th option.
Ok, that covers it. To begin the discussion, I will list a few categories. You may suggest new categories or discuss the current ones in your posts. As items are added, I will edit them into the master list at the bottom of this intro post.
MASTER CATEGORY LIST
Music
Gameplay (needs more specifics)
Aesthetics
Solidarity/Design - another way of saying Overall Composition, just how well the game was put together
Plot (in doubt)
Sub-Reference: Proposed Rubric by vonFiedler
The vonFiedler Rubric
Each category except for the last is judged on a scale of 1-5.
Less numbers makes each more divisive.
The difference between a 7 and an 8 may vary per person, this is less likely with a smaller scale.
Given that we are rating candidates for best game of all time and not comparing good games to garbage ones, the scale comes somewhat pre-curved.
1-Weakness
2-Detracting
3-Appealing
4-Strength
5-Mastery
One might note that there is no Average on this scale. A category should help or hinder a game's score. If it shouldn't factor, you should argue for a N/A. No game should have too many N/A categories, use with caution as it could tip the scale in a lackluster game's favor.
(World Design) N/A Categories
Storyline
This category is the plot, characters, and writing of a game. How it is judged may be subjective. This is the most common N/A category, but if the story in any way helps or hinders the artistic merit of the game then a score should be given.
Graphics Aesthetic
This category judges the artistic merit of the game's graphic design and not strictly its technology. Poor utilization of technology can hinder a game's score here, but that is because great art can be made even without great graphics power (see the most beautiful game ever made, Okami). It is what an artist does that determines the score here. This should not be as common an N/A category as has been thrown around, but may qualify sometimes.
Audio Aesthetic
This category judges the artistic merit of the game's music and sound design and not strictly its technology. Poor utilization of technology can hinder a game's score here, but that is because great art can be made even without great audio tech (see a ton of different games for the NES). It is what an artist does that determines the score here. This should not be as common an N/A category as has been thrown around, but may qualify sometimes.
(Game Design) Not N/A Categories
System Design
This category judges the fundamental game design. It is the movement physics in Super Mario Brothers. It is the stats and turn based combat in Pokemon. It is the sneaking in Metal Gear Solid. It is the shooting in Call of Duty. How you judge each game in this category may vary widely by genre or even within genre.
Content Design
This category judges how the above is applied through elements such as level design, enemies, bosses, set pieces, puzzles, etc. You can also factor just how much of merit the game has to offer, from different modes to game length. There are many different ways a game could achieve a 5 here, from tight level design (should be valued above all else) to replay value and game length wherein the game stays valuable and provides new content.
Interface Design
This seemingly technical category is artistically important because it connects the player to the game. Poor controls or bad interface break immersion. Great kinaesthetics are a boon for immersion. Poor controls are controls that do not allow you to naturally perform what the game asks of the you. They are not simply "different" controls or controls with learning curves (see King of Fighters or Resident Evil).
The scores for these 6 categories are averaged together for the game's tentative final score.
(Wagner Bonus)
When all the individual categories of a game work well together, a bonus may be argued for. This is a flat bonus of 1/2 to 1 to the tentative final score, signifying that a game is elevated above the sum of its parts. This can only be given to games with no N/A categories. Wagner himself never thought a work of art achieved this ideal goal, so these bonuses should be rare.
List of Games
Alright folks, after a lengthy and arguably imperfect voting period we have narrowed our list of games down to just under 300. This pool will eventually be further condensed to 100 games through a process of discussion and grading, which will happen in the next thread. For now, we have a greater task at hand: deciding how to rate these games in a fair and comprehensive manner. In this thread, we will do just that through a series of discussions.
Now, in order to create a rubric that fairly judges all games and is not favored toward a particular genre or game type, we must come up with a number of categories that we agree are essential in determining a game's quality. Obviously a game has many parts like its Music, Graphics, Plot, Platform, etc, that all contribute to its overall quality. We must define what makes a game great, and properly weight these categories so an accurate measure of overall quality can be achieved.
The first step of this Stage will be determining which categories to judge games on. We will accomplish this by compiling input from our users, then through discussion we will narrow and adjust the list down to a manageable core of aspects we can all agree on. At first, this will simply be done a bit like a nomination. If you feel a certain category should be added to the rubric, please post it and explain why. I think a reasonable goal for a final list would be somewhere between 7-10 categories, so try not to be overly specific in your examples. Some suggestions will be grouped into other more general categories in the end so our rubric does not become too complex to execute.
Before we begin, I'll lay out the ground rules:
1. No Flaming. Everyone's opinion counts here, and I expect us all to act like adults. If you disagree with someone's input, please keep your head on your shoulders and out of your ass, and discuss it rationally. Flaming and bickering will result in me discarding your input completely.
2. Be detailed. Don't just post and say "___________ should be included" and not tell us why. If you feel a game should be evaluated based on a certain aspect, explain why that aspect is essential in determining a game's value. Unsubstantive posts will be ignored and frequent offenders will be barred from future discussion.
3. No resurrecting old discussions. Do not debate the game list itself in this topic. I don't care if you are still pissed that a certain game got eliminated or was not given a chance at redemption like you asked. The list is the list, and it will not be changed.
4. Obligatory 4th option.
Ok, that covers it. To begin the discussion, I will list a few categories. You may suggest new categories or discuss the current ones in your posts. As items are added, I will edit them into the master list at the bottom of this intro post.
MASTER CATEGORY LIST
Music
Gameplay (needs more specifics)
Aesthetics
Solidarity/Design - another way of saying Overall Composition, just how well the game was put together
Plot (in doubt)
Sub-Reference: Proposed Rubric by vonFiedler
The vonFiedler Rubric
Each category except for the last is judged on a scale of 1-5.
Less numbers makes each more divisive.
The difference between a 7 and an 8 may vary per person, this is less likely with a smaller scale.
Given that we are rating candidates for best game of all time and not comparing good games to garbage ones, the scale comes somewhat pre-curved.
1-Weakness
2-Detracting
3-Appealing
4-Strength
5-Mastery
One might note that there is no Average on this scale. A category should help or hinder a game's score. If it shouldn't factor, you should argue for a N/A. No game should have too many N/A categories, use with caution as it could tip the scale in a lackluster game's favor.
(World Design) N/A Categories
Storyline
This category is the plot, characters, and writing of a game. How it is judged may be subjective. This is the most common N/A category, but if the story in any way helps or hinders the artistic merit of the game then a score should be given.
Graphics Aesthetic
This category judges the artistic merit of the game's graphic design and not strictly its technology. Poor utilization of technology can hinder a game's score here, but that is because great art can be made even without great graphics power (see the most beautiful game ever made, Okami). It is what an artist does that determines the score here. This should not be as common an N/A category as has been thrown around, but may qualify sometimes.
Audio Aesthetic
This category judges the artistic merit of the game's music and sound design and not strictly its technology. Poor utilization of technology can hinder a game's score here, but that is because great art can be made even without great audio tech (see a ton of different games for the NES). It is what an artist does that determines the score here. This should not be as common an N/A category as has been thrown around, but may qualify sometimes.
(Game Design) Not N/A Categories
System Design
This category judges the fundamental game design. It is the movement physics in Super Mario Brothers. It is the stats and turn based combat in Pokemon. It is the sneaking in Metal Gear Solid. It is the shooting in Call of Duty. How you judge each game in this category may vary widely by genre or even within genre.
Content Design
This category judges how the above is applied through elements such as level design, enemies, bosses, set pieces, puzzles, etc. You can also factor just how much of merit the game has to offer, from different modes to game length. There are many different ways a game could achieve a 5 here, from tight level design (should be valued above all else) to replay value and game length wherein the game stays valuable and provides new content.
Interface Design
This seemingly technical category is artistically important because it connects the player to the game. Poor controls or bad interface break immersion. Great kinaesthetics are a boon for immersion. Poor controls are controls that do not allow you to naturally perform what the game asks of the you. They are not simply "different" controls or controls with learning curves (see King of Fighters or Resident Evil).
The scores for these 6 categories are averaged together for the game's tentative final score.
(Wagner Bonus)
When all the individual categories of a game work well together, a bonus may be argued for. This is a flat bonus of 1/2 to 1 to the tentative final score, signifying that a game is elevated above the sum of its parts. This can only be given to games with no N/A categories. Wagner himself never thought a work of art achieved this ideal goal, so these bonuses should be rare.
