Shaymin-S (New Analysis)

Havak

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http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/shaymin-s (page not made yet)

Credit to Caelum for helping with this.



[SET]
name: Special Sweeper
move 1: Seed Flare
move 2: Air Slash
move 3: Earth Power
move 4: Hidden Power Fire / Hidden Power Ice
item: Choice Specs / Choice Scarf / Life Orb
nature: Modest / Timid
evs: 6 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>Shaymin-S has brilliant Speed and Special Attack, so it's a perfect candidate for a special attacking moveset, even with a somewhat limited offensive movepool. Seed Flare is a devastating attack, running off of 120 base Special Attack and STAB. Not to mention the 80% (68% when factoring in accuracy) chance of lowering your opponent’s Special Defense two stages, thanks to Serene Grace. The power of Choice Specs (or even an un-boosted) Seed Flare should never be underestimated. Air Slash is your secondary STAB attack, which also benefits greatly from Serene Grace (coupled with Shaymin-S’s impressive Speed) with a 60% (57% when factoring in accuracy) chance of a flinch. One of Air Slash's main objectives is to defeat Grass and Bug-types that can take a Seed Flare. Earth Power is chosen for greater type coverage, as most Steel-types will find it quite easy to switch in on Seed Flare or Air Slash, mainly Heatran and Metagross. The choice of Hidden Power depends on what you’d like to damage more. Hidden Power Fire’s main use is to dispose of Pokemon like Bronzong and Skarmory who resist, or are immune to all your other attacks. While Hidden Power Ice is good for providing safe checks against Salamence and Dragonite, it’ll also hurt Zapdos more than any of your other moves. Psychic is another alternative, but generally isn’t as useful as the Hidden Power’s already mentioned.</p>

<p>With Choice Specs, you’re able to rip into the vast majority of special walls such as Blissey, Snorlax, or Cresselia with Seed Flare. As with the boosted Special Attack, and possible Special Defense drops, they’ll have to think twice before switching in. However, Choice Scarf can be a nice surprise, and thanks to Shaymin-S’s already-high Speed, revenge killing problem Pokemon or already set-up sweepers can be a great asset. Life Orb is another option if you prefer the ability to switch attacks freely and don't mind recoil damage, while Yache Berry can allow you to take an Ice Shard and sweep the rest of an opponent's team (though this is quite situational). Expert Belt can also work well to trick opponents into thinking you have a Choice item.</p>

[SET]
name: Substitute
move 1: Substitute
move 2: Seed Flare
move 3: Air Slash
move 4: Earth Power / Leech Seed
item: Leftovers
nature: Timid
evs: 6 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>Once Shaymin-S is behind a Substitute (which is very easy to achieve), countering it becomes incredibly difficult. The reasoning behind Substitute is to ease prediction, as a lot of players will need to resort to revenge killing to get rid of Shaymin-S (mainly on offensive based teams). All the main carriers of Ice Shard are likely to be KO'd by one of Shaymin-S's attacks. Seed Flare disposes of Weavile, Mamoswine, and Donphan, while Air Slash (or Hidden Power Fire if preferred) will force Abomasnow to take a lot of damage. Heatran no longer revenge kills Shaymin-S with Substitute up and will be forced to take an Earth Power, resulting in Heatran being KO’d in return.</p>

<p>If you’re not too worried about Shaymin-S having to deal with Heatran (or most Steel-types) directly, Leech Seed can be very effective in the fourth slot. Grass-types are ineffective at walling your Substitute and Leech Seed combination, as they’ll have to fear a STAB super effective Air Slash. Air Slash also works tremendously well thanks to the high flinch rate, meaning you can gain free turns of healing through Leftovers and Leech Seed (and your opponent not being able to attack). Leech Seed can also help against enemies that could need to be stalled down, such as Registeel or Regice. </p>

<p>The choice of item for this moveset can actually be quite a difficult decision. Leftovers are mentioned already as the most reliable, replenishing HP lost from Substitute. But another good choice is Petaya Berry to boost your Special Attack in order to sweep late on. Life Orb can also work if you’re confident of regaining HP through Leech Seed.</p>

[SET]
name: Growth
move 1: Growth
move 2: Seed Flare
move 3: Air Slash
move 4: Earth Power
item: Leftovers / Life Orb
nature: Timid
evs: 6 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>A basic stat-upping set. Shaymin-S already has great Special Attack, and with Growth it becomes even better. Otherwise, this is incredibly similar to the previous sets. Simply switch in on a Pokemon you can force out, use Growth on the switch, and start sweeping from there. Growth boosts Shaymin-S’s great Special Attack and with possible flinches from boosted Air Slashes and Special Defense drops from Seed Flare it can become even more of a threat. Using a more defensive spread with a Yache Berry is also a viable alternative.</p>

[SET]
name: Swords Dance
move 1: Swords Dance
move 2: Seed Bomb
move 3: Zen Headbutt
move 4: Earth Power / Hidden Power Fire
item: Life Orb
nature: Jolly
evs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>This set attempts to make use of Shaymin-S's more than respectable base 103 Attack stat and its access to Swords Dance. While the pathetic physical movepool hinders the usability of this set, it’s still a viable option.</p>

<p>Seed Bomb and Zen Headbutt are Shaymin-S's best physical attacking options, the latter of which has a 40% chance to flinch the target. Due to the lack of viable physical options, Shaymin-S makes use of its great Special Attack once again in the final slot. Even with a Jolly nature and minimal Special Attack EV investment, Shaymin-S is still able to OHKO most Heatran and 2HKO Metagross with Earth Power. Or if preferred, one can OHKO Forretress and Scizor with Hidden Power Fire, while still scoring a 2HKO on Skarmory.</p>

<p>The EVs are rather intuitive for a physical sweeper. Feel free to switch to a Hasty or Naive nature to not weaken the power of your special move of choice.</p>

[Other Options]
<p>Shaymin-S’s offensive movepool is quite limited. Psychic was mentioned earlier in the analysis as an alternative move over Hidden Power, as it’s a reliable attack with a good base power and a 20% chance to lower your opponent’s Special Defense thanks to Serene Grace. Leaf Storm can work over Seed Flare if you’re expecting to play a hit-and-run strategy with Shaymin-S, but generally Seed Flare is the best choice. Energy Ball and Grass Knot are good choices over Seed Flare for the Substitute set with Leech Seed, due to their higher PP. Hidden Power Rock, while not hitting much for x4 super effective damage, eases prediction, and scores good hits on the majority of threats to Shaymin-S. Switch-ins such as Zapdos, Regice, Crobat, Dragonite, Abomasnow, and possibly Gyarados and Salamence are all hit for super effective damage. While Heatran, Scizor, and Skarmory all take neutral damage, helping if you mispredict. Ominous Wind is Shaymin-S’s only other decent special attack, and while it has low base power, the increased chance to raise all your stats shouldn’t be overlooked.</p>

<p>Endeavor can work if paired with Substitute or a Focus Sash, and Shaymin-S gets Quick Attack in case your opponent is somehow faster. Synthesis can be used to regain HP lost from Substitute, Stealth Rock, or switching in on Water-type moves. But you’ll have to predict well and it’s usually difficult to find a moveslot for it. GrassWhistle is very inaccurate, but if paired with Wide Lens (which is a good choice of item as it also helps out Seed Flare and Air Slash with accuracy) it can be effective. Aromatherapy is another good support move, but is generally done better by something with good defenses. Toxic can help stall down foes such as Blissey with the Leech Seed set, but there are better options in the movesets already listed. Shaymin-S is arguably the best user of the move Healing Wish: thanks to its high Speed stat Shaymin-S can pull off Healing Wish quite easily before it's KO'd. Worry Seed can be effective, ridding opponent's of abilities such as Clear Body or Inner Focus, allowing you to drop their Special Defense or flinch them, with Seed Flare, Earth Power, or Air Slash respectively.</p>

<p>As already mentioned, Petaya Berry, Salac Berry, Yache Berry, Focus Sash, Expert Belt, and Wide Lens are all good alternative items to use on Shaymin-S.</p>

[EVs]
<p>Shaymin-S is usually just a 6 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe job with a Timid or Modest nature, but there are a few slight alternatives. If you’re using Life Orb, you’ll probably want your HP stat to end in a nine to provide a possible 11 attacks instead of the usual 10. So you can either add more HP EVs from Special Attack, or lower your HP IV to 29 and add the 6 EVs to Defense. Adding a bit of Defense and using a Yache Berry can allow you to survive an Ice Shard, but you’re generally better off using the standard EV spreads, as the omnipresent Stealth Rock will hinder Shaymin-S’s performance.</p>

<p>If you’re using a physical Shaymin-S, go with an Attack or Speed boosting nature that doesn’t hinder Attack, with 252 Attack and 252 Speed EVs. As previously mentioned, Shaymin-S will need to use a special attack on its physical move-set to hurt Steel-types. So add the remaining 6 EVs to Special Attack, and use a Naive or Hasty nature over Jolly if you want that extra 10% Special Attack.</p>

<p>It should also be noted that Hidden Power Fire is only obtainable with an IV of 30, so take into account that you'll be losing speed ties every time against opposing Shaymin-S (unless they're also running Hidden Power Fire).</p>

[Opinion]
<p>Shaymin-S is a brilliant Pokemon, one of the fastest in the game coupled with great Special Attack. Serene Grace can help Shaymin-S punish enemies with Seed Flare or Air Slash, as that blatant use of luck will often go in its favour. Always take this thing into account when building a team, as without something that can counter or revenge kill it, it’ll most likely tear into your team. Stealth Rock weakness, Seed Flare's dreadful PP, and a slightly limited offensive move-pool do hinder Shaymin-S a bit, though.</p>

[Counters]
<p>For the special sets, Blissey, Snorlax, and Cresselia are usually safe switch-ins, but they will have to fear the Special Defense drop from Seed Flare and are all susceptible to the Substitute and Leech Seed combination. Skarmory and Bronzong are resistant to both Seed Flare and Air Slash, while being immune to Earth Power (assuming Bronzong has Levitate), so will only fear Hidden Power Fire. They can KO in return with Brave Bird (or Drill Peck) or Gyro Ball respectively. Skarmory can also Whirlwind (or Roar) away any attempts at SubSeeding.</p>

<p>Choice Scarf Heatran is a great counter, and revenge killer, provided it avoids Earth Power, as it can KO with STAB super effective Fire-type moves and is usually faster thanks to the Choice Scarf and Speed boosting nature. Special defensive Zapdos can cope with all of Shaymin-S’s attacks as it resists them all, bar Hidden Power. Thanks to Pressure, Seed Flare’s minuscule PP will be whittled away rather quickly. Moltres is similar to Zapdos in regards to countering Shaymin-S, but the omnipresent Stealth Rock really negates its effectiveness. Dragonite is resistant to Seed Flare and immune to Earth Power, it also has the Inner Focus ability to prevent flinching from Air Slash. However, Dragonite needs to be wary of Hidden Power Ice. Crobat is another Pokemon resistant to Seed Flare and immune to Earth Power, with Inner Focus to prevent flinching from Air Slash. Crobat is also faster and can KO with STAB Flying or Poison-type attacks, but will need to fear Psychic or Hidden Power Ice to a degree.</p>

<p>Regice, Registeel, and Metagross all have the Clear Body ability, which prevents Seed Flare’s secondary effect of lowering Special Defense. They all also have great HP and defenses, while having access to Ice-type attacks to OHKO Shaymin-S. However, they’re all subject to the Substitute set with Leech Seed, which is where Metagross has the edge over the two golems thanks to its STAB priority move, Bullet Punch.</p>

<p>Speaking of priority moves, a lot of the time Pokemon will be able to revenge kill Shaymin-S if they have access to a strong (or super effective) one. Scizor is a Pokemon that can switch in quite easily sometimes thanks to its Steel typing, as well as revenge kill Shaymin-S very effectively. It's only OHKO'd by Hidden Power Fire and can KO with STAB Bullet Punch. Weavile, Mamoswine, Donphan, and Abomasnow all usually carry Ice Shard and will OHKO Shaymin-S the majority of the time.</p>

<p>For the physical set, a lot of the previous counters listed are still counters. Bronzong is once again a stand out counter, as Hidden Power Fire won’t 2HKO, and it’s resistant to both your physical attacks. Registeel, while weak to both Hidden Power Fire and Earth Power, won’t fear the physical set too much and can KO with Ice Punch. Zapdos and Moltres will want to avoid a Swords Danced Zen Headbutt with flinch (especially with Stealth Rock in play), but are suitable counters. Salamence is now an excellent counter thanks to its typing and Intimidate; Dragonite still does the same job and can’t be flinched by Zen Headbutt.</p

<p>Without Earth Power, Heatran and Drapion laugh at the physical set. Without Hidden Power Fire, Skarmory, Scizor, and Forretress are all great counters. Metagross can only be 2HKO’d at best by either special attack, and will be able to OHKO in return.</p>
 

Caelum

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I already did this so I might post a few sets if you don't have them Havak. I'm just asking if we should even bother with an SD set. It seems like "other options" but I've seen it around and its workable so I was just wondering.
 

Havak

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Yeh Caelum, I was debating this myself as well. However, there isn't really a Pokémon as fast as, or as powerful as Shaymin-S, that shares the same moves and similar typing. I feel it's an extremely viable set, even if it's one that's not going to be used very often.
 

Caelum

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Havak and I are mixing and matching. :D. I still need to make a few comments but thats fine. Mostly on the sweeper set.

[SET]
name: Choice
move 1: Seed Flare
move 2: Air Slash
move 3: Earth Power
move 4: Hidden Power Fire
item: Choice Specs / Choice Scarf
nature: Modest / Timid
evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>Despite Shaymin-S's limited move pool and mediocre STAB, type wise, the power of a STAB Choice Specs Seed Flare working off of a base 120 Special Attack should never be scoffed at. Even reliable special walls such as Blissey and Snorlax will not enjoy switching with the 80% chance of dropping an opponents Special Defense with Seed Flare. Couple this with STAB Air Slash with a 60% chance to flinch and you have yourself quite a sweeper. Air Slash helps to take out opposing Grass types such as Celebi and Roserade who won't be taking much damage from Seed Flare. Earth Power covers Steel types, in particular Heatran who can switch in with impunity to your STAB moves. Hidden Power Fire helps to cover Bronzong and Skarmory.</p>

<p>Hidden Power Ice is usable over Hidden Power Fire if you want to deal with Salamence and Dragonite and its your best option against Zapdos. Psychic is a decent alternative as well, but the coverage of it is lackluster. Grass Knot is also an option for secondary STAB considering the low PP of Seed Flare.</p>

<p>Choice Scarf is perfectly valid since Shaymin-S's can surprise other Choice Scarf users like Timid Choice Scarf Heatran and OHKO with Earth Power.</p>

[SET]
name: Sweeper
move 1: Seed Flare
move 2: Air Slash
move 3: Earth Power
move 4: Hidden Power Fire
item: Life Orb
nature: Timid
evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>A more sweeper oriented set. A virtually identical set to the previous except now you have the freedom to choose your attacks.</p>

[SET]
name: SubSeed
move 1: Substitute
move 2: Leech Seed
move 3: Seed Flare
move 4: Air Slash
item: Leftovers
nature: Timid
evs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>A basic SubSeed set, however, Shaymin is arguably one of the best users of the strategy for two reasons. Firstly, its incredible Speed allows it to successfully pull off this strategy, and it is the fastest SubSeeder, even outrunning quite a few Choice Scarf users. Secondly, its STAB Air Slash helps it to take out Grass types who are immune to it. This Shaymin-S will be quite a nuisance for any team and with Air Slash causing possible flinches to gain more Leech Seed recovery you'll even have a harder time facing this SubSeeder.</p>

[SET]
name: Growth
move 1: Growth
move 2: Seed Flare
move 3: Air Slash
move 4: Earth Power
item: Leftovers / Life Orb
nature: Timid
evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>A basic Growth set. Shaymin-S already has great Special Attack and with Growth it becomes that much better. Otherwise, this is incredibly similar to the previous set. Simply Come in on a bulky Water that you can force out, Growth on the switch, and start sweeping from there. Growth boosts its great Special Attack and with possible flinches from boosted Air Slashes and Special Defense drops from Seed Flare it can become quite a threat. Using a more defensive spread with a Yache Berry is also a viable alternative.</p>


[Other Options]
<p>Shaymin-S's move pool is pretty limited, most other viable options have been mentioned in one way or another already. Shaymin-S could run a support set with Aromatherapy or Grasswhistle, but this role is better left to its more defensive land forme. Psychic could find a place to hit Zapdos for neutral damage and to OHKO Gengar. Endeavor is a bit of a novelty option but it could work given Shaymin-S's Stealth Rock weakness.</p>

[EVs]
<p>Generally, you are going to want to just run maximum Speed and Special Attack. There is no reason not to. However, making use of Shaymin-S's respectable base defenses is usable as well, although, poor typing and a Stealth Rock weakness hamper this.</p>

[Opinion]
<p>Shaymin-S is a great Pokemon. Excellent Speed and Special Attack is only just the beginning of why Shaymin-S is a massive threat to teams. Serene Grace is what pushes Shaymin-S to being a top tier Pokemon. Very few Pokemon can switch in with little risk because of Seed Flare's 80% chance to drop the opponents Special Defense by 2 Stages. Couple that with Shaymin-S's high Speed and potential Air Slash flinches and you'll find that Shaymin-S is quite a threat. While the poor move pool hampers it's potential, underestimate Shaymin-S at your own risk.</p>

[Counters]
<p>Blissey can work to a degree, but she is susceptible to SubSeed and with Serene Grace Seed Flare's having an 80% chance to drop her Special Defense so caution should be taken. Sassy Bronzong is a good counter with it's resistance to Shaymin-S's STAB attacks. Although it fears Hidden Power Ice, Dragonite makes a great counter because of Inner Focus, which prevents flinches, and it's 4x resistances to Seed Flare. Heatran will beat any set that lacks Earth Power and a Timid Choice Scarf Heatran can outrun Shaymin-S and OHKO with its Fire STAB. Zapdos's resistance to both of Shaymin-S's STABs make it an ideal counter as well and can bring it down with Thunderbolt or Hidden Power Ice. Scizor can switch in on Seed Flare and threaten it with Bullet Punch, but it won't enjoy Air Slash and Hidden Power Fire will OHKO. Regice and Registeel are excellent counter with Clear Body preventing a drop in their Special Defense from Seed Flare. Registeel is the better of the two, however, because of it's resistance to Seed Flare and Air Slash. Although neither can switch in, Weavile and Mamoswine can force Shaymin-S out with the threat of Ice Shard or OHKO if it decides to stay in.</p>

<p>Just remember, if you aren't using a Clear Body Pokemon, Serene Grace can always work against you. Luckily Seed Flare has a measly 8 PP and a lackluster 85% accuracy, so it's relatively easy to stall out the PP, but it can create quite some havoc before it's done.</p>
 

Jimbo

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Imo Substitute deserves a quick mention in the LO Set (over Hidden Power). It's good for scouting and can help against priority switch ins. I've even used it to try and get at Zapdos with a little help from Serene Grace ;) If anything it blocks status.
 
Good Job, Caelum. Minor nitpick as usual. Since you mention Hidden Power Ice, why not give it a slash?

Also, for the Subseed set how about you just call it Substitute and mention Earth Power next to Leech Seed. Say something like "Shaymin's incredible offensive power forces many switches allowing you to Substitute, thus easing prediction. From there, you can destroy that Heatran with Earthpower, or begin Subseeding the wall." Idk, I just think Earth power deserves a mention
 
Havak and I are mixing and matching. :D. I still need to make a few comments but thats fine. Mostly on the sweeper set.

[SET]
name: Choice
move 1: Seed Flare
move 2: Air Slash
move 3: Earth Power
move 4: Hidden Power Fire
item: Choice Specs / Choice Scarf
nature: Modest / Timid
evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>Despite Shaymin-S's limited movepool and mediocre STAB, type-wise, the power of a STAB Choice Specs Seed Flare working off of a base 120 Special Attack should never be scoffed at. Even reliable special walls such as Blissey and Snorlax will not enjoy switching with the 80% chance of dropping an opponent's Special Defense with Seed Flare. Couple this with STAB Air Slash, which has a 60% chance to flinch, and you have yourself quite a sweeper. Air Slash helps to take out opposing Grass-types, such as Celebi and Roserade, who won't be taking much damage from Seed Flare. Earth Power covers Steel types, in particular Heatran, who can switch in with impunity to your STAB moves. Hidden Power Fire helps to cover Bronzong and Skarmory.</p>

<p>Hidden Power Ice is usable over Hidden Power Fire if you want to deal with Salamence and Dragonite, and is your best option against Zapdos. Psychic is a decent alternative as well, but the coverage of it is lackluster. Grass Knot is also an option for secondary STAB considering the low PP of Seed Flare.</p>

<p>Choice Scarf is perfectly valid since Shaymin-S can surprise other Choice Scarf users like Timid Choice Scarf Heatran and OHKO with Earth Power.</p>

[SET]
name: Sweeper
move 1: Seed Flare
move 2: Air Slash
move 3: Earth Power
move 4: Hidden Power Fire
item: Life Orb
nature: Timid
evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>A more sweeper oriented set. A virtually identical set to the previous except now you have the freedom to choose your attacks.</p>

[SET]
name: SubSeed
move 1: Substitute
move 2: Leech Seed
move 3: Seed Flare
move 4: Air Slash
item: Leftovers
nature: Timid
evs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>A basic SubSeed set, however, Shaymin is arguably one of the best users of the strategy for two reasons. Firstly, its incredible Speed allows it to successfully pull off this strategy, and it is the fastest SubSeeder, even outrunning quite a few Choice Scarf users. Secondly, its STAB Air Slash helps it to take out Grass-types, who are immune to it. This Shaymin-S will be quite a nuisance for any team and with Air Slash causing possible flinches to gain more Leech Seed recovery you'll even have a harder time facing this SubSeeder.</p>

[SET]
name: Growth
move 1: Growth
move 2: Seed Flare
move 3: Air Slash
move 4: Earth Power
item: Leftovers / Life Orb
nature: Timid
evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>A basic Growth set. Shaymin-S already has great Special Attack and with Growth it becomes that much better. Otherwise, this is incredibly similar to the previous set. Simply come in on a bulky Water that you can force out, Growth on the switch, and start sweeping from there. Growth boosts its great Special Attack and with possible flinches from boosted Air Slashes and Special Defense drops from Seed Flare it can become quite a threat. Using a more defensive spread with a Yache Berry is also a viable alternative.</p>


[Other Options]
<p>Shaymin-S's movepool is pretty limited; most other viable options have been mentioned in one way or another already. Shaymin-S could run a support set with Aromatherapy or Grasswhistle, but this role is better left to its more defensive land forme. Psychic could find a place to hit Zapdos for neutral damage and to OHKO Gengar. Endeavor is a bit of a novelty option but it could work given Shaymin-S's Stealth Rock weakness.</p>

[EVs]
<p>Generally, you are going to want to just run maximum Speed and Special Attack. There is no reason not to. However, making use of Shaymin-S's respectable base defenses is usable as well, although poor typing and a Stealth Rock weakness hamper this.</p>

[Opinion]
<p>Shaymin-S is a great Pokemon. Excellent Speed and Special Attack is only just the beginning of why Shaymin-S is a massive threat to teams. Serene Grace is what pushes Shaymin-S to being a top tier Pokemon. Very few Pokemon can switch in with little risk because of Seed Flare's 80% chance to drop their Special Defense by 2 Stages. Couple that with Shaymin-S's high Speed and potential Air Slash flinches and you'll find that Shaymin-S is quite a threat. While the poor movepool hampers its potential, underestimate Shaymin-S at your own risk.</p>

[Counters]
<p>Blissey can work to a degree, but she is susceptible to SubSeed and <deleted> Serene Grace Seed Flare's having an 80% chance to drop her Special Defense, so caution should be taken. Sassy Bronzong is a good counter with its resistance to Shaymin-S's STAB attacks. Although it fears Hidden Power Ice, Dragonite makes a great counter because of Inner Focus, which prevents flinches, and its 4x resistances to Seed Flare. Heatran will beat any set that lacks Earth Power, and a Timid Choice Scarf Heatran can outrun Shaymin-S and OHKO with its Fire STAB. Zapdos's resistance to both of Shaymin-S's STABs make it an ideal counter as well and can bring it down with Thunderbolt or Hidden Power Ice. Scizor can switch in on Seed Flare and threaten it with Bullet Punch, but it won't enjoy Air Slash and Hidden Power Fire will OHKO. Regice and Registeel are excellent counters with Clear Body preventing a drop in their Special Defense from Seed Flare. Registeel is the better of the two, however, because of its resistance to Seed Flare and Air Slash. Although neither can switch in, Weavile and Mamoswine can force Shaymin-S out with the threat of Ice Shard or OHKO if it decides to stay in.</p>

<p>Just remember, if you aren't using a Clear Body Pokemon, Serene Grace can always work against you. Luckily Seed Flare has a measly 8 PP and a lackluster 85% accuracy, so it's relatively easy to stall out the PP, but it can create quite some havoc before it's done.</p>
nice job ^_^
 

maddog

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I have alot of experience with Shaymin-S, so I'll go ahead and weigh in on this.

First of all, Metagross is a pretty good counter, because of Clear Body. Most things that have a pritory move such as Scizor, or some Ice Shard users that have high enough attack (Donphan comes to mind) for revenge kill. People have used a very special defensive Skarmory to take care of it, and it has Whirlwind so it could work well enough.

As for sets, SubPeterya is a good option, and I've also had alot of success with Wide Lens/ Grasswhistle. If you want I can right these up for you, as they are a pretty good way to beat his counters.
 

Havak

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Okay, it's 4am now so I'm going to sleep and finish this off tomorrow.

I'm currently debating whether to even bother with (and what to have on) the Shaymin-S Swords Dance set. I need to play-test it as well, but if someone else wants to take a shot at that and write a Swords Dance set, I'd be greatful.

What does everyone think?
 

maddog

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I kind of doubt it, although I'm not too sure. Espically if Seed Flare gets that Special defense drop, I'm pretty sure that Air Slash would take care of it in one or two hits. One of the problems with Togekiss as a Shaymin-S counter is that it doesn't have Natural Cure, so a simple Thunderwave could make it so it has no chance of switching in. It would be to bring it after its killed something though.

@Havak: I'm not sure a Swords Dance set is really too worth it, to be honest. Other options would be a good place for it.

Also, would you like me to write up those sets that I mentioned?
 

Havak

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To be honest, I see Wide Lens Grass Whistle as a more of an "Other Options" worthy thing, rather than a full set. But if more people agree then feel free to write up that set yourself.

I've mentioned Petaya Berry in my Substitute set as I've written up some set myself (as you should be able to see now) and it'll get further mention in Other Options. I think that's adequete noting of Petaya Berry.

Anyway, I'll be back on after about 10-12 hours of sleep. So just drop some comments and I'll sort things out tomorrow.
 

maddog

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Yeah, I kind of thought that it was Other Options at first, but me trying it out changed my mind. Often, Sleep is extremely powerful against his counters, and usually you get 2 shots, because Shaymin-S is so fast. Wide Lens also makes Air Slash never miss (without accuracy modifiers) and makes Seed Flare up to 93 or so percent accuracy, which is useful to say the least. Most of the time, I would rather sleep my counters instead of puting up a Substitute. Wide lens gives Grasswhitle (slightly) more accuracy than Hypnosis too.
 

Caelum

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I'm iffy on Grasswhistle being included, I'll test it though, but Wide Lens should really be an option.

And where is my counters section in the OP Havak O_O (just kidding btw).
 

TAY

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I skimmed to make sure no one mentioned this but i might have missed it...

Seed Flare's chance to drop SpDef is not 80%, since the move does not have perfect accuracy. The correct chance to drop SpDef is 68%.

Air Slash is in the same situation (the actual chance is 57%).

EDIT: Skarm probably deserves mention as a counter, since he 4x resists Seed Flare, 2x resists the weaker Air Slash, is immune to Earth Power, and can Whirlwind out the subseeders.
 

Caelum

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Well, this is a matter of semantics I guess. Since it still technically has a 80% chance to drop your opponents Special Defense. I always thought it was illogical to say, "factoring in accuracy" since you are basically just restating that the move is 100% accurate. I don't know. I can throw it in if you want.
 

Havak

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I'll add a small note about that then, TAY, once I can think of a way to word it. I'll probably not bother with a physical set for now and just start writing the EVs, Other Options, Opinion, and Counter sections in a moment. I'll probably use a bit of Caelum's write-up again. (I think I might be able to do a little bit better though, since Caelum's did seem a little un-finished, probably because I reserved this before he finished his).
 

Caelum

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looks good, and yeah wasn't quite done with it and I stopped when you called it ^_^ and you took the good parts of mine so I'm cool.

Healing Wish should probably get a "lol" mention in Other Options. Shaymin-S is probably the most viable user of the move given its high Speed allowing it to pull it off just before it is OHKO'd. Kinda of a novelty option but I've seen it work. Not well enough to warrant its own set, but work well enough that it can make an appearance in "other options".
 

cim

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Scizor should be listed a bit more prominently in Counters, as it can switch in on any one attack not named HP Fire and OHKO right back.

Scarf Heatran is the best possible response IMO, as the only set faster than it is restricted by a Choice item and fairly weak.

Make the Opinion hype Shaymin a little less, as you may have noticed he hasn't torn the metagame into pieces at all. He's still a huge threat, but he's not exactly hard to stop.
 

jrrrrrrr

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A physical set could really work well here. Skymin has 102 base Attack and 127 base Speed, combined with Swords Dance, Seed Bomb, Zen Headbutt, and a perfectly usable 120 base SpAtk that doesn't even need a single EV to make HP Fire/Ice/Rock or Earth Power viable in the last slot. An SD set would make it the best physical Grass type this side of Arceus...for what that's worth.

Also suggesting HP Rock as at least an other option, as it lets Skymin hit Salamence, Zapdos, and Gyarados for 2x damage while letting you mispredict and hit Heatran for a good chunk of neutral damage (most heatrans are scarfed and only have 4 HP EVs). HP Rock Skymin has been really useful for me and it beats the common double switch patterns that people take to beat Skymin.

Scizor does make a pretty good counter, although it hates Air Slash, HP Fire and Earth Power to a lesser extent. I also agree with chris is me that the Opinions/counters section needs to be changed slightly. 68% chances are not that high for something like a SpDef drop, and there are plently of Skymin counters in OU, even with SR up. Skymin is a top-tier pokemon, but only in the hands of someone who knows what theyre doing. You shouldn't be emphasizing the SpDef downs of Seed Flare, you should be emphasizing that it only has 8 PP in a metagame where stall and Pressure are becoming a lot more popular and useful.
 

Havak

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I could add a little bit more about Shaymin-S failing to OHKO Scizor (outside of Hidden Power Fire), but the reason Scizor is so low down is because I feel that the Counters section flows better. In the way of Solid Special Walls, followed by Resistant or Immune Pokémon with beneficial abilities, then Clear Body users and Pirority users. So I'm a bit reluctant to change any order there as I think it's a nice read that way.

I'm finding it hard to see the real benefit of the Swords Dance set over any other set. Though admittedly, I've not used one before. If someone has and can point out how effective it really is, I'd be more than happy for them to write out a analysis for that set. I just feel you're still walled by mainly the same things, except you're even more walled by the likes of Registeel, Metagross, Scizor, probably most Cresselia, Crobat, Zapdos, Bronzong, Skarmory, Abomasnow, Dragonite and now even Salamence.

It does give physical Sceptile a run for its money (albeit with a much worse move-pool), and the reason I was going to include it in the analysis at first was because there isn't really anything similar to how Shaymin-S would work in a physical sense. As you've got a good Attack stat and you're faster than any other Grass-type. But the move-pool is so limited and I just fail to see what it'll really achieve.

However, I do like the sound of Hidden Power Rock, as it does ease prediction and allow for mistakes to be not-so-costly.
 

Havak

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Added a section about Hidden Power Rock in Other Options (though if you want it in Set Comments for the Special Sweeper I can do that too).

Added a little more on Scizor, but I think it's fine as is now.

I'll have a think about how to sort out the Opinions section as well, but if people have some suggested lines I could add them.
 

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