Selection

[Mekkah]

Recently someone (I believe Vineon) said something among the lines of the following: "They should stop adding new Pokemon to the old ones and instead trash the old ones, or do what they did with ADV (the whole 200/386 metagame thing with many Pokemon being unavailable until FRLG solved it). 500 is way too much."

Which made me think: why not try to construct some sort of balanced metagame with a limited number of Pokemon? A qualm I have with DP is that you cannot really play conservatively (as in, with little risk) anymore because of the massive diversity of about anything. Of course, the opposite (a stall metagame) isn't desired either.

So yeah, I was wondering, what Pokemon would you put together in a theoretical new metagame (with no new ones added in) so that it would be balanced, or at least desirable to play? Or rather, how would you start creating the pool of Pokemon? For size I think somewhere between 30-50 fully evolved Pokemon would be enough.

Obviously one way to approach it is to start by eliminating Pokemon from DP you know that are very threatening - you'll likely end up with some kind of UU play or just repeatedly eliminating the strongest until there's nothing left. Another is to start with, say, Tyranitar and Hippowdon, then add Pokemon that like Sand Stream: Regirock, Cacturne, Golduck, Clefable, etc. Of course, whether this is varied enough to enjoy and balanced is the question.

Theorymon commence.

 

[Anti]

This would be fun, but there's a lot of choice with what to remove. I bet the next 20 posts will say "BLISSEY!", but then you've got Azelf, Togekiss and Raikou on every team and unbalancing the game, so you've got to remove those as well. I think it'll end up in a sort of 'the UU of OU' metagame.

 

[Amelia]

Remove everything from RB/GS/RSE and leave DP pokes only.
Remove everything from RB/GS and leave RSE/DP pokes only.

Those are my opinions, and if in the case of something like Glaceon, it is allowed to use all the other evos like flare/jolt/vapy.

 

[gabriel]

The idea is to creat new pogeys and evo, eliminate the strongest OU or both?

 

[Davy]

Hmm, whatever they do, don't remove Blissey/Any of the SkarmBlissey killers and were fine for most parts....Unless they remove all of the other walls.

 

[Aziraphale]

This would be fun, but there's a lot of choice with what to remove. I bet the next 20 posts will say "BLISSEY!", but then you've got Azelf, Togekiss and Raikou on every team and unbalancing the game, so you've got to remove those as well. I think it'll end up in a sort of 'the UU of OU' metagame.

Whilst Blissey is very useful in stemming the tide of Spec sweepers, it's not the be all and end all of the defensive aspects of the metagame.

It's very possible for the Standard metagame to exist and be perfectly balanced with Blissey removed, it just means people would have to adjust how they construct their teams. Of course, that's completely off topic . . .

I honestly believe a balanced metagame could be created with any random selection of the Pokemon currently available. Obviously, you'd still need to make rules for things that are Ubers in that context. Just for an easy example, Blissey could be considered an Uber in a metagame where all pokemon that pose a threat to it are removed.

It's probably not a good idea to do it based on power though, because that really just boils down to removing the OU/BL tiers. I think it's better to do it based on completely random decisions, or at the least logical decisions not based on power.

It would work. There's no doubt that pretty much no matter what you do it's possible to make some sort of balanced metagame provided you take care to have something like the Uber tier to make sure that any pokemon that over-centralise things go byebye.

Taking over some OU pokemon could prove interesting though, if Heracross or Infernape were removed (again, just easy examples), would that mean that the "poor man" versions of them would suddenly become more popular (Pinsir and Blaziken for those playing at home. That really could make the metagame more diverse, simply by removing some options it means that people would have to either find something that does the same role but not as well, or find something that does a different but similar role.

Another thing that might be fun would be taking out all pokemon that learn Stealth Rock. Not only does that make the metagame a lot more aggressive because they're generally very defensive pokemon, so a lot of walls would suddenly disappear making it very hard to be defensive, but it also opens the flood gates for a lot of 4x weak to SR pokemon to make a comeback. Not that SR is overpowered, just that it would be interesting to see how things would be without the pokemon that learn it AND the move itself.

 

[Dr.Traveler]

Hrrmmmm........

I'd start with the Shinnoh Pokedex, and see what happens from there. Our league night has a "Shinnoh" night where those guys are the only ones allowed, and its often pretty fun, though a few Pokes show up on every team.

Up side, it encourages the newbies using the cart as they aren't facing pokemon they've never seen before.

If you limit to the Shinnoh Dex, that leaves:

Torterra
Infernape
Empoleon
Staraptor
Bibarel
Kricketune
Luxray
Alakazam
Gyrados
Roserade
Crobat
Golem
Steelix
Rampardos
Bastiodon
Machamp
Golduck
Mothim
Beautifly
Dustox
Vespiqueen
Pachirisu
Floatzel
Cherrim
Gastrodon
Heracross
Ambipom
Drifblim
Lopunny
Gengar
Mismagius
Honchcrow
Purugly
Seaking
Whiscash
Chimecho
Skuntank
Medicham
Bronzong
Rapidash
Sudowoodo
Mr.Mime
Blissey
Clefable
Chatot
Raichu
Noctowl
Spiritomb
Garchomp
Snorlax
Unown
Lucario
Quagsire
Pelipepper
Girafarig
Hippowdon
Azurmarill
Drapion
Toxicroak
Carnivine
Remmoraid
Octillery
Lumineon
Tentacruel
Milotic
Mantine
Abamasnow
Weaville
Uxie
Mesprit
Azelf
Dialga
Palkia

About 75 pokes all told.

 

[Maslada]

I think this could be a very god idea as at the moment most of the results of your games are going to be based completely on correctly or incorrectly guessing the opponents set. Reducing the amount of pokemon would certainly make the game more predictable and less dependant on lucky guesses.

I remember once seeing Hipmonlee suggest a metagame which basically banned most of the base stat 600 hundreds and a lot of the more useful legendaries. I always thought it looked like it would be a very interesting metagame to play. The problem with most of the said top tier legendaries (i.e not articuno, moltres, the regi's, entei, raikou and uxie) and base stat 600's is the huge movepool they almost always get.

I know this isn't quite the same as what was suggested in the original post but anything that reduces the amount of possible threats is a good thing. I know I've personally started playing ADV again, the only poke your left guessing about in ADV was Tyranitar (because of BOAH).

 

[TheMantyke]

Okay, I know very little on how and what they allowed, but I think that in GSC, you could play "True GSC" and "GSC Tradebacks". What if we had a seporite metagame called "True D/P" that only allowed moves and items found only in D/P (aka, No emerald moves, no past starters, no past legendrys). Still though, the selection would be barely scratched.

 

[Trust]

This could be a mix metagame of OU, BL and UU. (NU won't work anyway...).

I think that the next list could be interesting:

Aerodactyl
Dugtrio
Dusknoir
Machamp
Rhyperior
Slowbro
Tangrowth
Weezing
Abomasnow
Ambipom
Arcanine
Articuno
Blaziken
Charizard
Espeon
Exeggutor
Floatzel
Flygon
Gallade
Gardevoir
Hariyama
Honchkrow
Houndoom
Jynx
Leafeon
Lickilicky
Ludicolo
Magmortar
Miltank
Mismagius
Moltres
Ninjask
Porygon2
Rampardos
Regice
Regigigas
Regirock
Registeel
Sceptile
Slaking
Shedinja
Smeargle
Spiritomb
Staraptor
Steelix
Tauros
Torterra
Umbreon
Uxie
Venusaur
Zangoose
Absol
Aggron
Altaria
Armaldo
Azumarill
Banette
Blastoise
Butterfree
Cacturne
Camerupt
Clefable
Cradily
Crobat
Dodrio
Drifblim
Electrode
Feraligatr
Froslass
Gastrodon
Glaceon
Golduck
Golem
Gorebyss
Grumpig
Hitmonchan
Hitmonlee
Hitmontop
Hypno
Jumpluff
Kabutops
Kangaskhan
Lanturn
Lapras
Luxray
Mamoswine
Meganium
Muk
Nidoking
Nidoqueen
Ninetales
Octillery
Omastar
Persian
Pinsir
Poliwrath
Primeape
Probopass
Quagsire
Raichu
Rapidash
Relicanth
Rotom
Sharpedo
Shuckle
Slowking
Swellow
Tentacruel
Torkoal
Toxicroak
Typhlosion
Ursaring
Venomoth
Victreebel
Vileplume
Walrein


Well, it's quite long, but all of them can play in the same metagame. Machamp is obviusly better than Primeape, but it can work as an anti-sleeper or try a sweep with Anger Point. I think that all of them could work in the same tier. There isn't pokes overpowered here. And special attackers won't sweep, because the strongest ones, have been deleted.

What do you think about it?

 

[ODDish]

(NU won't work anyway...) *snip* What do you think about it?

I think I'd start by reconsidering that position ... there are a number of purportedly NU pokemon that can function effectively in higher tiers.

Personally I've used Purugly, Stantler, Ariados, Noctowl, Magcargo, Dewgong and Parasect, and seen others utilise Girafarig, Wischcash, and Raticate with great success.

Also you've overlooked some great UU pokemon like Ampharos and Mr. Mime, in favour of things like Luxray and Victreebel.

 

[Trust]

Shiny, I know that they can work in other tiers, but if you keep some pokes that only work in some situations, and they are quite fragile, the list will be longer (MORE long). Purugly is great in UU, the same as Parasect and Dewgong under the rain. Anyway, fix the list with your own opinion, but we should reduce it, and not increase it.

 

[GreenPikachu]

it's tough to really talk theoretically about this, because we've never had to. for every generation there were always clear-cut metagames that just created themselves. RBY was good when it first came out, then when GSC came out, RBY Tradebacks was created. Even within GSC there were stipulations for a short time (Sneak3 didn't allow Crystal moves for R1, but then caved eventually). Then the third generation was limited to the 200 metagame for a while until LG/FR came out and it was bumped to 386, like you said. Now with this 4th generation you can import from the 3rd generation easily once you get the National Dex (which is made easy by the fact that you only have to SEE the pokemon). This metagame was never really limited in any way either naturally or by us.

I liked Maslada's post about Hip's suggestion. That sounds intriguing. Also, TheMantyke's post is good. Would that make a difference? Only allowing DP moves or something? It's tough to just arbitrarily knock out non-Sinnoh Dex pokemon, especially since so much of DP is just building off of the previous generation (Weavile, PorygonZ, Magmortar, Electivire etc). So, I'd say Hip's idea that Maslada was talking about could be interesting, and possibly worth a shot.

 

[Marauder Artemis]

I believe that an all-Sinnoh metagame could be the one that is used. Previously we had 200 which was basically just pokemon in the R/S games, so why not do the same with D/P ?_?

 

[Bogmire]

Maybe what could be done instead of limiting the number of pokemon allowed in the metagame, would be to allow 7 pokemon per team on competitor. That would allow you to play more conservatively since you have more slots to counter things you couldn't otherwise. Just an idea. Allowing D/P pokemon only doesn't sound bad either.

 

[éyaang]

Well... Ubers could be the "main metagame" instead of OU. We would bring up the OUs whom do well in Ubers, and we'd end up with something like:

Arceus
Blissey
Darkrai
Deoxys (all forms)
Dialga
Forretress
Giratina
Groudon
Ho-oh
Kyogre
Latias
Latios
Lugia
Manaphy
Metagross
Mew
Mewtwo
Palkia
Rayquaza
Registeel
Shedinja
Skarmory
Tyranitar
Wobbuffet

Now this may look like a nub's metagame, but even the smallest mistake would change the tides.

 

[Trust]

Blissey is in a lot of Uber teams. I've never seen Abomasnow, Regirock, Regice and Cresselia in Ubers. Hail will do nothing in Ubers. Sandstorm is not used so much in Ubers, so Regirock won't work. And Regice and Cresselia will be outclassed by Deoxys-LG.

 

[TheMantyke]

I liked Maslada's post about Hip's suggestion. That sounds intriguing. Also, TheMantyke's post is good. Would that make a difference? Only allowing DP moves or something? It's tough to just arbitrarily knock out non-Sinnoh Dex pokemon, especially since so much of DP is just building off of the previous generation (Weavile, PorygonZ, Magmortar, Electivire etc). So, I'd say Hip's idea that Maslada was talking about could be interesting, and possibly worth a shot.

oh, I'm sorry, that's not what I ment to say.

What I ment to say is that pokemon that you can not obtain in D/P legally without a past version (such as past starters and legendarys as they require pal-parking) and moves that a pokemon cannot learn without an earlier version (The elemental punches on several things and XD moves) would not be allowed. It would just be raw D/P with no interaction from the advanced games.

I also love the suggestion hipmonlee made long ago about having am OU metagame and then an "extreme OU' metagame with the 600 club

 

[DiamondDust]

we already seperate pokemon into different groups with tiers.
if they wanted to eliminate 1 by 1 the best pokemon they could just leave out what we consider the OU list. then the BL list.
meh, i dont like the idea. its too simmilar to the way we play with tiers anyways.

 

[ODDish]

Shiny, I know that they can work in other tiers, but if you keep some pokes that only work in some situations, and they are quite fragile, the list will be longer (MORE long).

Unfortunately one could argue that the greater majority of the things on that list only work in some situations or are fragile, some both. The terms are too subjective. I don't think a satisfactory conclusion is ever achievable constructing a list on such a basis, I mean just look at the continuing debate regarding tiers.

 

[X-Act]

Hehe, you know I was going to answer to this. :) I was there when Vineon said that.

It is obvious that some Pokemon are too good, others are average, and others are below average. This is, in part, because not all Pokemon were designed for battling in mind in the first place.

It's not easy to say which Pokemon are good and which are bad. If you give Entei Flare Blitz and Earthquake, it would suddenly become much closer to OU, since stats-wise, Entei is arguably the best out of the three legendary dogs. If you give Clear Body to Regigigas, it becomes uber. And so on.

In short, I would allow all Pokemon in, but I would fix the movepools and/or stats of each of them so that they all become roughly equal. It's not fair not to allow everything in my opinion.

 

[COalex]

Well... Ubers could be the "main metagame" instead of OU. We would bring up the OUs whom do well in Ubers, and we'd end up with something like:

Arceus
Blissey
Darkrai
Deoxys (all forms)
Dialga
Forretress
Giratina
Groudon
Ho-oh
Kyogre
Latias
Latios
Lugia
Manaphy
Metagross
Mew
Mewtwo
Palkia
Rayquaza
Registeel
Shedinja
Skarmory
Tyranitar
Wobbuffet

Now this may look like a nub's metagame, but even the smallest mistake would change the tides.

This.

Of course, there would be many more of the lower tier pokemon allowed, but I agree with the basic idea.

 

[xcfrisco]

why dont we just get rid of all pokemon with base 600 or above? If the idea is to create a more conservative metagame, getting rid of the hardest hitting pokemon in OU would surely help.

The only argument I see against this (if the point is to make a conservative metagame) is that the metagame becomes more stall-oriented and less offensive.

 

[TAY]

While I think it would be near impossible to artificially create a new metagame and have everyone agree on it, something that could be very fun would be to create new themed metagames (like mono, but not as usually one-sided), which Mekkah touched on briefly with his mention of TTar, Hippo, and Golduck. We could have a format where only weather-ability pokes are allowed, or one in which there are only 3 types allowed (having only fire/water/grass pokes would be very interesting), or only allowing pokes with one type or (lol) with a certain weakness.

The advantage of something like this is that it doesn't leave a lot of room for discussion as to which pokemon are/are not allowed--
"Is it a fire type?"
"yes."
"then it's allowed."
--whereas arbitrarily defining a new metagame one pokemon at a time would take a painfully long time. (Note that I am, of course, assuming that all the current Ubers would be banned from this type of play.)

Does anyone else think that this kind of play could be viable and, more importantly, fun?

 

[Madcat]

I think I'd start by reconsidering that position ... there are a number of purportedly NU pokemon that can function effectively in higher tiers.

Personally I've used Purugly, Stantler, Ariados, Noctowl, Magcargo, Dewgong and Parasect, and seen others utilise Girafarig, Wischcash, and Raticate with great success.

Also you've overlooked some great UU pokemon like Ampharos and Mr. Mime, in favour of things like Luxray and Victreebel.

Noctowl's definitely not UU anymore, because of Psycho Shift and Hypnosis's accuracy being boosted, not to mention it now has a reliable recovery move.

On topic, has anyone mentioned Breloom yet? I'm so sick of it now.