^The hell is that set O_O
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Salamence (Moxie + Update)
- Thread starter AccidentalGreed
- Start date
Really? .-.
And what about DD Gyarados and Bulky CMCune? You can't Outrage on them, and Dragon Claw isn't strong enough
Maybe Outrage > Stone Edge
Dragon Pulse from Timid LO Heatran does "only" 95%, while getting lower damage from Thunders
If so, there should be three sets: Scarf, DD, and Mixed, as others are useless
Hello all. Sorry for being late to the party. First, I haven't tested Specs Salamence out yet, so I can't really disclose on that yet. Secondly, it'll be a short while before I can do some real testing on new Salamence sets, seeing in two weeks a new PO update will be released. Those being said:
Bruno Magno, you’re not really helping your case (or what thereof). Judging by the set you posted and the reasoning you put behind it, you have little knowledge of the current competitive scene. I’ll just make this short by saying...
Bruno Magno, you’re not really helping your case (or what thereof). Judging by the set you posted and the reasoning you put behind it, you have little knowledge of the current competitive scene. I’ll just make this short by saying...
- The set is frankly unworthy because of a lack of STAB, in return for situational coverage moves, amongst other things.
- Analyses generally do not prefer using defensive EVs on offensive Pokemon because the drop is either situational in itself, or that Pokemon can do something better with its EVs. If that were the case, where's that 36 EVs on Gengar to survive Scizor's Bullet Punch?
- STAB Outrage / Draco Meteor is more efficient than running the subpar Thunder Fang. To counter your reasoning, Suicune is almost irrelevant in OU, and most other bulky Water-types are 2HKOed or OHKOed by any combination with Outrage.
- Okay, so apparently, if Outrage > Thunder Fang, then all other sets are useless. I don't get it.
Moxiemence's big coverage means that he can run Draco Meteor + Outrage, excellent wallbreaker, but after a Special Attack drop, or under Outrage's confusion, the foe can do whatever, from Leech Seed to Spikes. Outrage is a valid move, and should replace Thunder Fang, but i prefere a set with all the coverage he can get
What's the point of using other sets, if LO Draco Meteor shoots everything?
I guess it's by far better than Specs
If you prefer having a set with as much coverage as possible, that's your call.
Thing is, LO Draco Meteor doesn't shoot everything, and thanks to the standard Mixmence's popularity (it isn't actually popular in the general sense, but it's all relative), it's a highly predicted move on Salamence. As a dragon of many options, Salamence can choose to be immediately threatening with its Choice and Mixed sets, or gradually through its standard DD / Moxie sets.Bruno Magno said:
What would you even hit with Thunder Fang?
Well, there's always the big offensive threats that you can't quite "shoot" with the [TOTALLY USELESS] Draco Meteor, like Gyarados, Pelipper, Swanna. Then there is the defensive behemoth of Empoleon, who otherwise takes NOTHING from that whole moveset. Gotta hit that super-effectively or you could get defense-swept.
Who really needs or uses Dragon STAB, anyway? Walled by Steels. So useless. Especially on something like Salamence. I mean, come on.[/trololo]
Can we ignore that lovely set for this analysis, though, and move on to other things? If we add that set, people will know about it and the surprise value of dat coverage is totally lost.
Other than that, piping in to say that I'm finding MoxieMix and MoxieScarf to both be very satisfying to use. I've replaced Outrage with Dragon Claw on the Mix set, and just use useless filler for the Scarf set until the servers finally catch up, but it can be terrifying to face. Haven't tried Band yet, but that's on my list, since LO dies far to quickly to suit my liking. I have been pairing this up with Moxie SubDD Gyarados, and it's fun to watch physical walls kinda fall. Those physical Steels that can take Dragon Claw (which should be Outrageeee) are hit neutrally by Gyarados' Waterfall, with the exception of 3 - the Ferro family and the Great Empoleon. Gyarados can even murder Ferro with Bounce, and Salamence with it's choice of a not-Fire-Fang Fire-type move. I don't know if that deserves a mention, since it's obvious who pair physical sweepers together to wear down counters of the pair, but I'm just reporting my findings.
I can't wait for MoxieRage to be legal...
Who really needs or uses Dragon STAB, anyway? Walled by Steels. So useless. Especially on something like Salamence. I mean, come on.[/trololo]
Can we ignore that lovely set for this analysis, though, and move on to other things? If we add that set, people will know about it and the surprise value of dat coverage is totally lost.
Other than that, piping in to say that I'm finding MoxieMix and MoxieScarf to both be very satisfying to use. I've replaced Outrage with Dragon Claw on the Mix set, and just use useless filler for the Scarf set until the servers finally catch up, but it can be terrifying to face. Haven't tried Band yet, but that's on my list, since LO dies far to quickly to suit my liking. I have been pairing this up with Moxie SubDD Gyarados, and it's fun to watch physical walls kinda fall. Those physical Steels that can take Dragon Claw (which should be Outrageeee) are hit neutrally by Gyarados' Waterfall, with the exception of 3 - the Ferro family and the Great Empoleon. Gyarados can even murder Ferro with Bounce, and Salamence with it's choice of a not-Fire-Fang Fire-type move. I don't know if that deserves a mention, since it's obvious who pair physical sweepers together to wear down counters of the pair, but I'm just reporting my findings.
I can't wait for MoxieRage to be legal...
Though it's basically the first set listed with a few modifications, this is something I'd recommend should go on site. People are seeking movesets that are built with using Moxie in mind, and that's what this is.
[SET]
name: DD MoxieMence
move 1: Dragon Dance
move 2: Outrage / Dragon Claw
move 3: Earthquake
move 4: Fire Blast / Flamethrower
item: Lum Berry
ability: Moxie
nature: Rash / Naïve
evs: 80 HP / 252 Atk / 176 Spe
4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Fire Blast is indeed stronger than Fire Fang, unless you've already got multiple Moxie boosts. Also, it's nice for scoring that first kill against Ferrothorn, Scizor. The rest of the set speaks for itself.
Take a look at the two EV options. I suggest either option, depending on what you're going for. A bit more HP, or speed. I've done calcs on what will or will not be outrun, depending on the EVs.
With max Speed EVs and a boosting nature, Salamence has 328 Speed. At +1, he reaches 492. At +1, he is tied with +1 Volcorona. He is outspeeded only by +2 Cloyster, +2 Kingdra, and +2 Genesect (I'm including him even though he's not released yet) Everything else that outspeeds him is Uber. (Like +2 Excadrill)
With 176 Speed EVs and a boosting nature, he'll have 308 Speed. At +1, he'll be at 462. The things he'll lose the privilege of outspeeding at +1 are +1 Volcorona, Scarf Hydregion, Scarf Genesect, +1 Haxorus. He'll be tied with Scarf Mienshao.
Going with 176 instead of 252 will mean that at 0, he will then be outrun by Max Volcorona, Ninetales, Zapdos, (those 3 are a speed tie) Haxorus, and Gliscor. He'll be tied with 176 Jirachi and most versions of Celebi.
Starmie, Serperior, the Lati Twins, Gengar, Espeon, Infernape, Terrakion, Zoroark, Keldeo, Landorus, and Mienshao outspeed the 252 version of Salamence anyway, so you're not losing anything there. I'd say this is worth mentioning.
[SET]
name: DD MoxieMence
move 1: Dragon Dance
move 2: Outrage / Dragon Claw
move 3: Earthquake
move 4: Fire Blast / Flamethrower
item: Lum Berry
ability: Moxie
nature: Rash / Naïve
evs: 80 HP / 252 Atk / 176 Spe
4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Fire Blast is indeed stronger than Fire Fang, unless you've already got multiple Moxie boosts. Also, it's nice for scoring that first kill against Ferrothorn, Scizor. The rest of the set speaks for itself.
Take a look at the two EV options. I suggest either option, depending on what you're going for. A bit more HP, or speed. I've done calcs on what will or will not be outrun, depending on the EVs.
With max Speed EVs and a boosting nature, Salamence has 328 Speed. At +1, he reaches 492. At +1, he is tied with +1 Volcorona. He is outspeeded only by +2 Cloyster, +2 Kingdra, and +2 Genesect (I'm including him even though he's not released yet) Everything else that outspeeds him is Uber. (Like +2 Excadrill)
With 176 Speed EVs and a boosting nature, he'll have 308 Speed. At +1, he'll be at 462. The things he'll lose the privilege of outspeeding at +1 are +1 Volcorona, Scarf Hydregion, Scarf Genesect, +1 Haxorus. He'll be tied with Scarf Mienshao.
Going with 176 instead of 252 will mean that at 0, he will then be outrun by Max Volcorona, Ninetales, Zapdos, (those 3 are a speed tie) Haxorus, and Gliscor. He'll be tied with 176 Jirachi and most versions of Celebi.
Starmie, Serperior, the Lati Twins, Gengar, Espeon, Infernape, Terrakion, Zoroark, Keldeo, Landorus, and Mienshao outspeed the 252 version of Salamence anyway, so you're not losing anything there. I'd say this is worth mentioning.
I think DD + Outrage + Moxie is illegal, even with the new release. Dragon Dance is an egg move.
If it is, then they should just go with Dragon Claw. That's what I use on mine right now, lol.
no its legal, when you get a bagon from dw it comes with either dragon dance or moxie. http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Bagon_(Pokémon)
if you scroll to the bottem ull see dream world only moves. Completely legal
I'm going to lay out simple stuff so we don't go over this ever again and misinterpret each other's messages.
Moxie is available with either (I repeat. EITHER) Dragon Dance OR Outrage. If the bolded and capitalized text wasn't enough, Salamence cannot have both moves on the same set WITH Moxie.
Moxie + Dragon Dance = Legal
Moxie + Outrage = Legal
Moxie + Dragon Dance + Outrage = No-No.
For the record, unless we're making a bulky Dragon Dance set (which is highly unlikely because of the existence of Dragonite and Gyarados), both abilities are viable on DD Salamence, so I'll group them in one set and explain them in a paragraph to avoid needless clutter.
Moxie is available with either (I repeat. EITHER) Dragon Dance OR Outrage. If the bolded and capitalized text wasn't enough, Salamence cannot have both moves on the same set WITH Moxie.
Moxie + Dragon Dance = Legal
Moxie + Outrage = Legal
Moxie + Dragon Dance + Outrage = No-No.
For the record, unless we're making a bulky Dragon Dance set (which is highly unlikely because of the existence of Dragonite and Gyarados), both abilities are viable on DD Salamence, so I'll group them in one set and explain them in a paragraph to avoid needless clutter.
Moxie boosts are useless on SpecsMence as it is a special attacker.
...which is why Salamence would use Intimidate in place of Moxxie's useless effect and the illegalities that come with it. We're not just limited to Moxie here.
I still say naive mixmence should have Intimidate slashed, for all the reasons that were argued in the last new mixmence thread.
edit: for reference: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3970032&postcount=23
What is this "can't be dealt with using dead fodder" BS? If anything, it's even easier to beat Mence with death fodder now (Moxie or no) just because there are a LOT more viable Pokemon that outspeed mence in BW, and scarf is even more popular. Moxie boosts will get wasted in the face of faster revenge killers more often than not.
edit: for reference: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3970032&postcount=23
What is this "can't be dealt with using dead fodder" BS? If anything, it's even easier to beat Mence with death fodder now (Moxie or no) just because there are a LOT more viable Pokemon that outspeed mence in BW, and scarf is even more popular. Moxie boosts will get wasted in the face of faster revenge killers more often than not.
No, I'm saying Intimidate should be slashed on the Naive mence. The big difference between the sets is not the ability, it's the difference of speed and the choice between Outrage/Roost.
edit: No, because Intimidate is equally good (it's easily arguable either way), imo better than Moxie.
Regardless of nature, the two mixmence sets work completely differently. Even in DPP, they were separate sets even when they had the same ability. >:(
Even the OP of the original thread playtested and agreed that the boosts of Moxie end up worthless so often (due to so many things being faster) that Intimidate is arguably better.
edit: No, because Intimidate is equally good (it's easily arguable either way), imo better than Moxie.
Regardless of nature, the two mixmence sets work completely differently. Even in DPP, they were separate sets even when they had the same ability. >:(
Even the OP of the original thread playtested and agreed that the boosts of Moxie end up worthless so often (due to so many things being faster) that Intimidate is arguably better.
Hmm, seems like the Classic and the New can be fused together for 1 Mixmence set? Possibly have the Speedier EV spread and Naive / Outrage / EQ be the primary option with the slower Rash / Roost / Brick Break being the secondary option? Intimidate > Moxie, too, probably, in order of significance.
Sorry I haven't replied to this thread in a while kids. Exams are frankly a pain. Chou, you do make a good point about Intimidate being superior over Moxie for the reasons explained above, so in the future I guess I'll make a new New MixMence set explaining the advantages of two abilities once I get a proper computer.
NO. Rash + Roost and Naive + Outrage work COMPLETELY differently, and are both extremely powerful sets in their own right. They were different sets in DPP, and they're still very different in BW. Two different sets.
Yeah Accidental, I think it'd be good if Naive mence was posted with both abilities, and a brief explanation for their different strong points.
Quick question. Why doesnt any moxiemixmence ev spreads go 252splattack/252speed like this?
name: DD MoxieMence
move 1: Dragon Dance
move 2: Dragon Claw
move 3: Earthquake
move 4: Fire Blast
item: Lum Berry
ability: Moxie
nature: Rash / Naïve
evs: 4 HP / 252 SplAtk / 252 Spe
I would have thought that after a DDance, you're already at +1 with the first moxie boost 1 turn away putting you at +2. The 252 spl attack means that no steal can ever threaten you AND you can threaten major damage to physical walls that try and halt the sweep with FireBlast.
Or am I missing something and the evs given in the op designed to JUST get certain KOs?
name: DD MoxieMence
move 1: Dragon Dance
move 2: Dragon Claw
move 3: Earthquake
move 4: Fire Blast
item: Lum Berry
ability: Moxie
nature: Rash / Naïve
evs: 4 HP / 252 SplAtk / 252 Spe
I would have thought that after a DDance, you're already at +1 with the first moxie boost 1 turn away putting you at +2. The 252 spl attack means that no steal can ever threaten you AND you can threaten major damage to physical walls that try and halt the sweep with FireBlast.
Or am I missing something and the evs given in the op designed to JUST get certain KOs?
The point of Fire Blast is to take out Skarmory, Ferrothorn, etc. who are already hit incredibly hard by it, and most other physical walls are either Ground-weak or can't take a boosted Outrage. The EVs allow you to hit as hard as possible on the physical side, since the special side isn't your focus.
Also, I think Brick Break should get at least an AC mention on the Dragon Dance set. It adds a nice coverage move to Mence's movepool on teams that have fewer problems with Skarmory, as well as breaking Dual Screens. In addition, you can take weaker resisted hits on the Special side since you can run Jolly over Naive.
Also, I think Brick Break should get at least an AC mention on the Dragon Dance set. It adds a nice coverage move to Mence's movepool on teams that have fewer problems with Skarmory, as well as breaking Dual Screens. In addition, you can take weaker resisted hits on the Special side since you can run Jolly over Naive.