Putting an end to the slippery slope

[Pikachu of Doom]

Garchomp doesn't have a single counter in OU. At best you need two pokemon to handle him.

 

[TheSpinner]

Salamence, Dragonite, and Tyranitar are not on Garchomp's level. Compared to Garchomp, how easy is it to counter Celebi, Jirachi, or Shaymin?

Have you ever heard "You have a Shaymin/Jirachi/Celebi weak?" They are pokemon you can play around.

Garchomp is a different story. PH3R-BOT said it right. If a team does not carry a Garchomp counter, it is instantly invalidated. Even with a Garchomp counter, can you stop it?

Player 1: Garchomp switches into something it scares.
Player 2: No prob, I'll go to CB Ice Shard Mamoswine. It's my counter.
Player 1: Garchomp used Swords Dance!
Player 2: Switches in Mamoswine
Player 1: Selects fire blast
Player 2: Ha! Ice Shard priority!

Then Garchomp has a yache and your screwed. Your chomp counter is gone and it's +2 and ready to sweep your team.

Don't tell me you should have another counter. Garchomp is usually brought out late game once your opponent has scouted and removed any potential problems.

Is this the same for any sweeper? Yes and no. Sweepers are usually brought out late game, to sweep. However, most teams can play around them.

Garchomp, in my opinion, is on a different level. He's so unpredictable and dangerous. His 102 base speed means he will never tie, unless it is with another Garchomp. This is signifcant because you pretty much know what will outspeed him, and what he will outspeed. He is very bulky for a sweeper, and sand veil gives him evasion. He's even immune to thunder wave, so you can't para him on the switch.

Garchomp is deadly. Does he centralize the metagame? Yes. If you say he doesn't centralize it, your kidding yourself.

 

[Pikachu of Doom]

Mamoswine can't even switch in safely.

 

[Kira]

. Garchomp is taken down by several things in OU, and is raped by almost every single Uber.

That is hardly a good reason to give when trying to prove Garchomp isn't over centralizing, and doesn't belong in ubers.

1. Mewtwo can be taken down by several OU pokemon carrying a STAB dark/ghost move that are faster than mewtwo. Does that mean Mewtwo should not be uber?

2. A Pokemon's performance in ubers does not mean it should be moved down to OU as Ubers is not a real tier. If a 10000 BST Ghost/Dragon with Levitate were to show up in the next game, it would certainly be Uber. It would also make all the other Uber pokemon cringe, and would "rape every single Uber"

By your logic since all those other ubers can be taken down by at least something in OU, and now suck in Ubers, they should be moved to OU.

 

[TheSpinner]

In my example Mamoswine switched in as Garchomp swords danced.

That's not really important, though.

The point is Garchomp clearly centralizes the OU metagame.



Note - And, if your talking about counters as something that can switch in safely and scare it off, Garchomp doesn't really have a counter at all because pretty much everything is 2HKO'ed by something on it's moveset.

This holds true for a few of the top tier OU sweepers, actually. Still, they aren't nearly as bulky or unpredictable as Garchomp.

 

[Janenmori]

By your logic since all those other ubers can be taken down by at least something in OU, and now suck in Ubers, they should be moved to OU.

But, Mewtwo has a much higher stat total, better distribution, and better sweeping stats than Garchomp, and it can compete with its fellow ubers, regardless of what can take it down in OU, it can take down everything in OU itself. Garchomp, however, can be taken down by the likes of Weezing, Dusknoir, Mamoswine, and even other Garchomps. It is all based on play, not raw power. It is the fact that Garchomp CAN be taken down by something in OU and that it is by more than one thing and that it does not have the raw stats to stand up to Ubers like Mewtwo or Deoxys A.

In my example Mamoswine switched in as Garchomp swords danced.

That's not really important, though.

The point is Garchomp clearly centralizes the OU metagame.



Note - And, if your talking about counters as something that can switch in safely and scare it off, Garchomp doesn't really have a counter at all because pretty much everything is 2HKO'ed by something on it's moveset.

Toxic Spikes and WoW cripple the thing pretty well.

This holds true for a few of the top tier OU sweepers, actually. Still, they aren't nearly as bulky or unpredictable as Garchomp.

Garchomp does not centralize the metagame. You could say the same thing about any sweeper like Gyarados, Weavile, Tyranitar, Gengar, Heracross, Heatran etc. As many teams as there are to be Garchomp weak are Gengar weak. Does that mean we should ban Gengar now? Gengar is easily as unpredictable as Garchomp as is something like Heatran. Heatran also has great bulkyness. Should we ban it too now?

 

[TheSpinner]

Seriously? Let's look at those sweepers.

Gyarados - 60 Sp. Atk (Wtf, are you going to run a mixed set with this?)
81 base spd - Gyara is going to be a physical sweeper. Simple. A mixed set with Gyara is more or less a gimmick

Weavile - Mach Punch, Bullet Punch. BAM, Weavile is dead. This thing is frail. How are you comparing this to Garchomp?

Tyranitar - 61 spe...compared to Chomp's 102.

Gengar - Do you realize how frail Gengar is?

Heracross - 40 sp. atk What was the last time you saw a mixed heracross? I fail to see how this remotely poses the threat that Garchomp does.

Heatran - 77 spe. A EQ user can outspeed and easily KO. If this is mixed, it will probably be running Explosion.

Be realistic now. Everything you mentioned is either frail or has much lower speed then Garchomp. And they don't even have Sand Veil.

Garchomp is a bulky sweeper with 102 base spe (it's own tier) fully capable of hitting hard on both ends of the spectrum (and thus being either mixed, physical, or even special). Nothing in OU compares to it.

Edit: I hope you also see the significance of Sand Veil. It's a 20% evasion boost to something that's already unpredictable, bulky, and fast. People run Flamethrower over Fire Blast because Fire Blast has 85% accuracy. Now, against Garchomp, you have 80% acc and you don't even know what set it's running, if it's scarfed, yache berried, etc.

 

[Dragontamer]

How about doing it the other way around - starting with the uber metagame, then banning everything that's overcentralizing there (for example, Kyogre and Dialga)? After that, start a new ladder or use the uber ladder with all Pokemon except Kyogre and Dialga, and systhematically ban the most overused and overcentralizing Pokemon every month. After a while, everything overpowered is gone and you end up with an as large as possible OU metagame. Whether this includes Wobbuffet, Garchomp, Darkrai, Mew or whatever borderline uber? We will see.

No, that just gets us the "most uber-like" OU metagame.

The "largest possible" metagame is probably unreachable, and for all we know is somewhere close to the BL / UU metagame. I mean, throw away Infernape, and Blazikin will almost certainly join the ranks of OU. Throw away Garchomp, and Salamence and perhaps Alteria, Flygon, and Kingdra will be promoted from UU to OU.

Contrived examples? Perhaps. But it certainly shows that it is _possible_ that banning more pokemon than your method can create a larger metagame.

Considering the 493 pokemon, that gives us at worst the 2^493 or 2.55e+148 possible metagames. This is a massive search space, and there is only one "largest possible" metagame. Obi's attitude of "Uncentralized enough" is practical, as opposed to us degenerating into a search of every possible metagame.

-----------------------------

Anyway, your method is similar to the current method and offers no guarantee as to whether or not the game will actually be less centralized after all that is done. As for me, I think it would be best if we just ban every legendary on the basis of "hard to get in the real game", and then unban the ones that aren't over-centralizing. This way, we keep with the spirit of the Gameboy games (easy to get pokemon are "fair", hard to get ones are less fair), and still end up with a relatively large metagame.

 

[Janenmori]

Seriously? Let's look at those sweepers.

Gyarados - 60 Sp. Atk (Wtf, are you going to run a mixed set with this?)
81 base spd - Gyara is going to be a physical sweeper. Simple. A mixed set with Gyara is more or less a gimmick

DD ups its speed AND attack, and it has good bulky stats, as well as a great movepool and attack. Hydro Pump can do some damgage, but its priority is physical sweeping as is Chomp's

Weavile - Mach Punch, Bullet Punch. BAM, Weavile is dead. This thing is frail. How are you comparing this to Garchomp?

Ice Shard. BAM Chomp is crippled or dead. I was comparing it as a threatening sweeper if you read my post. There is also an item called a FOCUS SASH.

Tyranitar - 61 spe...compared to Chomp's 102.

Sdef boost, DD, and better defensive stats as well as a 4x weak and and immunity, and a MUCH greater move pool as well as the famous BOAH set. Do not even try to compare it here. This thing IS used in Ubers.

Gengar - Do you realize how frail Gengar is?

Do you realize how fast it is? Do you realize its moveset capabilities and the ability to tear apart a team, as well as its THREE immunities to switch in on, and its great Satk stat?

Heracross - 40 sp. atk What was the last time you saw a mixed heracross? I fail to see how this remotely poses the threat that Garchomp does.

Why the fuck would you even talk about a mix set when considering Heracross? You should be thinking about its STAB Megahorn that rapes Cresselia which is one of the most prominent walls in the game, as well as its Guts, and its STAB Close Combat all off of a base 125 Atk stat.

Heatran - 77 spe. A EQ user can outspeed and easily KO. If this is mixed, it will probably be running Explosion.

Great defenses, resists, has a 4x weak, has two immunities as well as a great Satk and a movepool to back it up. Nothing to scoff at when considering it.

Be realistic now. Everything you mentioned is either frail or has much lower speed then Garchomp. And they don't even have Sand Veil.

Garchomp is a bulky sweeper with 102 base spe (it's own tier) fully capable of hitting hard on both ends of the spectrum (and thus being either mixed, physical, or even special). Nothing in OU compares to it.

Tyranitar, Salamence, and to an extent Dragonite all compare to it.

Edit: I hope you also see the significance of Sand Veil. It's a 20% evasion boost to something that's already unpredictable, bulky, and fast. People run Flamethrower over Fire Blast because Fire Blast has 85% accuracy. Now, against Garchomp, you have 80% acc and you don't even know what set it's running, if it's scarfed, yache berried, etc.

Do not pull the Sand Veil card here please, that is LUCK only. (and who uses Flamethrower against Chomp?)

But, with these "bulky stats" which are shadowed by Gyara and Heatran who both have 4x weaks and an immunity just like Garchomp. While speed is crucial, you leave out the boosts that some can get, as well as the their own attacking prowess and sweeping capabilities, and their bulkyness and abilities are better or at least eqivalent to Garchomp. Any one of these could be used in Ubers. I myself often use a DD Tyranitar and Scarftran in Ubers.

 

[cim]

Okay, everyone knows that I think every one of these Pokémon is Uber in their own right, so I won't repeat that. Oh wait, I just did. But that's not my point.

If by some miracle the consensus becomes "we must test", something very important needs to be discussed: HOW? Are we going to just throw everything in a tournament, wait for it to end, and say "Ok, they're OU now because I think so"?

I personally think that stuff like holding a tournament, then discussing from there is even worse than paper battling: Not everyone battled every set, everything is subjective, and rarely does anyone's mind change. People need to post and look at logs of Pokémon X in action. Usage as the tournament/ladder progresses needs to be tracked; we can't make a decision that something's OU because in the early stages of the tournament no one picked it. We need, in short, DATA.

So yeah, that's my two cents. Know what you are looking for.

 

[TheSpinner]

I never said anything about using flamethrower against Garchomp. My post said people often choose to run Flamethrower over Fire Blast, just because of the better accuracy. That shows how much Sand Veil helps Chomp. Please read before you answer.

And, exactly, Gyara needs to DD. That takes a turn. I could say that (insert random UU poke) has just as much potential as Chomp because it is bulky and can stat up. But, it takes turns to stat up.

Heatran needs a scarf to raise his speed. Does Garchomp need a scarf? It's a choice, but he has 102 speed unscarfed. With Heatran, you lose an item slot to raise it's speed.

You keep comparing things with Garchomp that simply don't match up with him. They need either stat ups or items to raise their speed. Garchomp has their bulkiness, sand veil, and much better base speed.

 

[cim]

Okay, I lied, I'll discuss each Pokémon in brief:

Latios: Take Specs Salamence and remove the 4x Weaknesses and give it great Special Defense and resistances. Oh, and add Calm Mind, Recover, and 20 more Special Attack. How can people think that Latios is OU material again? Hell, he even gets Dragon Dance to attack on the physical side with Draco Meteor to break Hippowdon before he can land 3 Ice Fangs. What exactly stops Latios reliably? Empoleon?

Latias: Same as Latios, really, except that Latias can work as a Special Wall with lots of Special Attack and Speed. Calm Minding Latias will beat non-CM Blissey every time, even Calm ones. Oh, and Latias resists a shitload of moves.

Mew: Can do absolutely anything with well above average stats everywhere. Can Baton Pass any stat better than anything else in the game. Hell, a simple Nasty Plot / Hypnosis / Aura Sphere / Shadow Ball set is great; Mew would be OU even if that was all it could do. 101 Subs, every +2 move in the game, and even Explosion. It's like Azelf but bulky in the offense department, and it's like nothing else in the Baton Pass department. It would take so many OU Pokémon's jobs.

Darkrai: Dark Void is good. 125 Speed is great. 130ish SAtk is great. Calm Mind, 90 Atk Focus Punch, Taunt... it's basically got Heatran's stats, but with more Speed in exchange for defenses. Oh, and a much bigger movepool. And better everything. It's Gengar without the frailness pretty much.

Manaphy: This has actually been tested, you guys. It's. Been. Tested. Before. And. It. Was. Moved. To. Ubers. Do. You. Understand? Anyway, a Manaphy test makes the most sense of them, but the option of being a Rain Dance tank or a Tail Glow sweeper (or both, kinda) is quite potent. Also, what exactly stops Manaphy? Thunder / Wave Blissey is all I can think of that's not Lanturn (Energy Ball means Lanturn loses), Ludicolo, or Starmie on the revenge kill. Quagsire?

TheSpinner: You're confusing me. If one's not using Flamethrower on Garchomp, why do people pick it for the better accuracy because of Chomp? What does Chomp have to do with Flamethrower? Why do you guys keep bringing up Garchomp? This isn't a "Garchomp is Uber" thread.

Garchomp being faster than Heatran and bulkier than Gengar doesn't matter, you're missing the point. No one was saying that Garchomp and Heatran are the same Pokémon. They both pose a roughly equal threat though, and if you're going to yell about Garchomp you should do it somewhere that's not in the "discuss base 600s from Ubers in OU" thread. Because it'll confuse me.

 

[Janenmori]

I never said anything about using flamethrower against Garchomp. My post said people often choose to run Flamethrower over Fire Blast, just because of the better accuracy. That shows how much Sand Veil helps Chomp. Please read before you answer.

And, exactly, Gyara needs to DD. That takes a turn. I could say that (insert random UU poke) has just as much potential as Chomp because it is bulky and can stat up. But, it takes turns to stat up.

Heatran needs a scarf to raise his speed. Does Garchomp need a scarf? It's a choice, but he has 102 speed unscarfed. With Heatran, you lose an item slot to raise it's speed.

You keep comparing things with Garchomp that simply don't match up with him. They need either stat ups or items to raise their speed. Garchomp has their bulkiness, sand veil, and much better base speed.

Gyara does not NEED to DD, it is an OPTION. Just as SD is an option on Chomp, but Chomp does not USE its bulkyness in any sets. Do you see SleepTalk Garcomp? No, because that is a waste of its sweeper capabilities. I would personally say that Tyranitar is MORE of a threat than Chomp, but that is just me.

Okay, I lied, I'll discuss each Pokémon in brief:

Latios: Take Specs Salamence and remove the 4x Weaknesses and give it great Special Defense and resistances. Oh, and add Calm Mind, Recover, and 20 more Special Attack. How can people think that Latios is OU material again? Hell, he even gets Dragon Dance to attack on the physical side with Draco Meteor to break Hippowdon before he can land 3 Ice Fangs. What exactly stops Latios reliably? Empoleon?

And do not forget to mention that it has to resort to HP Fire instead of Flamethrower or Fire Blast. Although that does not really matter as much considering the better Satk

Latias: Same as Latios, really, except that Latias can work as a Special Wall with lots of Special Attack and Speed. Calm Minding Latias will beat non-CM Blissey every time, even Calm ones. Oh, and Latias resists a shitload of moves.

Mew: Can do absolutely anything with well above average stats everywhere. Can Baton Pass any stat better than anything else in the game. Hell, a simple Nasty Plot / Hypnosis / Aura Sphere / Shadow Ball set is great; Mew would be OU even if that was all it could do. 101 Subs, every +2 move in the game, and even Explosion. It's like Azelf but bulky in the offense department, and it's like nothing else in the Baton Pass department. It would take so many OU Pokémon's jobs.

Thus removing the maximum number of Pokemon in the metagame ergo its ban.

Darkrai: Dark Void is good. 125 Speed is great. 135 SAtk is great (405 at max). Calm Mind, 90 Atk Focus Punch, Taunt... it's basically got Heatran's stats, but with more Speed in exchange for defenses. Oh, and a much bigger movepool. And better everything. It's Gengar without the frailness pretty much.

Manaphy: This has actually been tested, you guys. It's. Been. Tested. Before. And. It. Was. Moved. To. Ubers. Do. You. Understand? Anyway, a Manaphy test makes the most sense of them, but the option of being a Rain Dance tank or a Tail Glow sweeper (or both, kinda) is quite potent. Also, what exactly stops Manaphy? Thunder / Wave Blissey is all I can think of that's not Lanturn (Energy Ball means Lanturn loses), Ludicolo, or Starmie on the revenge kill. Quagsire?

TheSpinner: You're confusing me. If one's not using Flamethrower on Garchomp, why do people pick it for the better accuracy because of Chomp? What does Chomp have to do with Flamethrower? Why do you guys keep bringing up Garchomp? This isn't a "Garchomp is Uber" thread.

Garchomp being faster than Heatran and bulkier than Gengar doesn't matter, you're missing the point. No one was saying that Garchomp and Heatran are the same Pokémon. They both pose a roughly equal threat though, and if you're going to yell about Garchomp you should do it somewhere that's not in the "discuss base 600s from Ubers in OU" thread. Because it'll confuse me.

 

[chewy]

This is a logical fallacy.

When I see someone use the Law of Modus Ponens in a debate on pokemon maybe then I'll consider 'logical fallacies.'

I have no idea how this thread ended up as the 'let's ban Garchomp thread'...

IMO there seems to be a big schism between Garchomp haters and lovers. If people are so divided on this, they should open a new server in Shoddy and program so that Chomp can't be used on ladder. Then get separate OU usage statistics for this server and compare that with the usual stats. That's really the only objective way I can think of.

Anyways, whenever I use Garchomp, esp the CScarf version, it always ends up as a coin toss between seeing which Chomp is faster that determines the winner. Takes all the skill out =\.

 

[TheSpinner]

Of course it's an option. But if Gyara doesn't DD it is stuck with it's 81 base spe, where Garchomp has 102 base spe. That's a clear advantage for Chomp.

And what do you mean by use it's bulkiness? It's natural bulkiness helps when taking attacks during it's sweep. Would you rather have a frail sweeper or a naturally bulky one?

Also, I've seen people run bulky defensively oriented Garchomps on Sand Stream teams. With Sand Veil + Bright Powder, you have good evasion and can hit back hard. It's just not as popular as sweeper Chomp, because he's much better at sweeping.

I see Tyranitar as a pretty huge threat too, but a bit below Chomp's level. Gyara, IMO, is much easier to stop then either T-tar or Chomp.

 

[Janenmori]

Of course it's an option. But if Gyara doesn't DD it is stuck with it's 81 base spe, where Garchomp has 102 base spe. That's a clear advantage for Chomp.

And what do you mean by use it's bulkiness? It's natural bulkiness helps when taking attacks during it's sweep. Would you rather have a frail sweeper or a naturally bulky one?

Also, I've seen people run bulky defensively oriented Garchomps on Sand Stream teams. With Sand Veil + Bright Powder, you have good evasion and can hit back hard. It's just not as popular as sweeper Chomp, because he's much better at sweeping.

I see Tyranitar as a pretty huge threat too, but a bit below Chomp's level. Gyara, IMO, is much easier to stop then either T-tar or Chomp.

Speed is not everything. That is like saying "Ninjask is better than Chomp because it has base 160 speed." That is foolish. DDdos sweeps whole teams just as Chomp can, and Tyranitar is actually USED IN UBERS. That is how good IT IS. I do not see anyone using Garchomp in Ubers because it relies too heavily on SS and Brightpowder hax.

 

[Fenikkusu]

T-tar is used in ubers for stab pursuit and weatherchanging.

Abomasnow is used in ubers. That's how good IT IS.

just saying.

 

[TheSpinner]

Speed is not everything / bulkiness is not everything / etc. etc.

No, it's not. But is it an advantage? Of course.

I don't see why people judge OU pokemon based on their usage in ubers. As Fenkkisu said, Abomasnow is used in Ubers. Is Abomasnow going to be banned out of OU anytime soon? Probably not.

Judge everything by it's performance in the tier you're debating. It's performance in other tiers isn't very relevant.

 

[cim]

No one in their right mind uses Abomasnow in Ubers. Stop making stuff up to beef up your fake straw man arguments against each other. I have never once seen it, plus he has horrible stats.

TheSpinner, seriously shut the fuck up about Garchomp already! You're repeating the same points over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again, you're not convincing everyone that all base 600s are equal and thus Grachomp is uber.

There's a fallacy in the argument that if base 600s are uber than Grcahomp must be: stats aren't everything. So that being a well known principle, you just hijacked a debate about 600s to bring Garchomp up, and since you're not convincing anyone of anything, can me please please please stay on fucking track already?

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

The problem isn't that he's a base 600... it's that he has ALL the right stats in ALL the right places. Celebi/Shaymin/Jirachi/etc 600s all have that 100 across the board which limits their potential... but Garchomp has that amazing 108/130/95/80/85/102. 102 Speed lets him beat all Base 100s with a similar nature. 130 gives him phenomenal physical prowess, buffed beyond by Swords Dance. Having only two weaknesses, as well as an immunity to Electric that not only gives him free switchins, but also makes him immune to Thunder Wave, a fast sweeper's worst nightmare, STAB on Earthquake and Outrage, and access to Yache Berry, which lets him either get a free kill on things that pack Ice attacks to counter him or survive an ice attack in order to get a free Swords Dance. The 80 Base SpA allows him to pack Fire Blast to cripple counters like Skarmory and Bronzong. Excellent 108/95/85 defenses give him amazing bulkiness for a physical sweeper. And to top it all off, he has Sand Veil, which gives him a ridiculous 20% evasion boost under Sand, which is incredibly common given Hippowdon and Tyranitar's power. This allows him to do an incredible number of things given luck- a free Swords Dance, surviving things that can shut down a winning sweep, and nearly eliminating the ability to counter it given that 20% of the time, the counter will fail entirely.

BST 600 means nothing. But combining BST 600 with a ridiculous ability and perfectly placed stats makes a monster that rampages all over OU.

 

[Glen ^^]

Okay, I lied, I'll discuss each Pokémon in brief:

Latios: Take Specs Salamence and remove the 4x Weaknesses and give it great Special Defense and resistances. Oh, and add Calm Mind, Recover, and 20 more Special Attack. How can people think that Latios is OU material again? Hell, he even gets Dragon Dance to attack on the physical side with Draco Meteor to break Hippowdon before he can land 3 Ice Fangs. What exactly stops Latios reliably? Empoleon?

Don't compare them two. They have different conters, Metagross can't counter Salamence, but is a very decent switch in to Latios. Weavile can scare them both, but is specially dangerous to Latios thanks to Pursuit.
Also, Latios lacks Intimidate, have the same base 80 defense and is generally weaker in physical resistances. Also, Salamence still a better Dragon Dancer thanks to better endurance and attack.

Latias: Same as Latios, really, except that Latias can work as a Special Wall with lots of Special Attack and Speed. Calm Minding Latias will beat non-CM Blissey every time, even Calm ones. Oh, and Latias resists a shitload of moves.

A lot of special sweepers can beat Blissey 1-on-1, this doesn't mean nothing. Even Entei beats her, so what?
She still a weaker Latios/Salamence as a sweeper.

Long ago I tried to discuss the viability of Lati@s in OU, but the thread got closed early.

People always try to not show the bad side of the Lati@s.

What's the problem in moving down to OU two excellent sweepers with good resistance, that we're lacking since Manaphy got to ubers?


I'm not talking about theory here. We (Brazilians) play with Lati@s since early ADV, and almost always you could use them in any tourney (without Soul Dew of course).

 

[DrEnzyme]

This sort of discussion is the reason that I like BL pokemon.

BL pokemon are a lot less broken than their OU counterparts. As has been said before, the Rock, Paper Scissors formula of previous generations meant that each pokemon had a counter. In some ways, I feel that the BL tier has this system running a lot smoother than the higher tiers.

Because of this, the BL tier (and the tiers below it) offer you a lot more freedom. You can stick movesets on things that you would normally never use (belly drumming Linoone FTW), and expect to get some really satisfying results.

I'm not an online battler as such, but when and if I decide to play, it's going to be with BLs...

 

[Kietharr]

I'm going to say this. If anyone wants to ban the base 600 legends, Garchomp must also be banned.

If Garchomp was a legendary, he would have already been banned to ubers. He overcentralizes the metagame more then any of the base 600 legends currently in OU.

Do people really carry counters for Jirachi/Celebi/Shaymin/etc or worry about them?

How many times has a team been called Garchomp weak? How many threads have been posted lately discussing Garchomp?

If you want to take a look at the base 600 legends currently in OU, please also take a look at the force that is Garchomp.

This argument is absolutely ridiculous. Garchomp is not overcentralizing, it is just a top tier OU threat. It's like saying Swampert was overcentralizing in Advanced because EVERYONE had to carry a counter for it or they would die horribly. Get used to it, if it's a top tier OU threat you 100% must counter it. By this argument, why not ban Infernape because just as many teams are Infernape weak. How many threads have been opened across the net about how Blissey has no counters and should be uber, just because the majority of people see things that way does not make them true.

Not caring about Celebi/Jirachi counters is also ridiculous considering they're two major OU threats and both can sweep or wall any team that can't counter them. Mew/Manaphy are in an entirely different league. Mew has the largest movepool in the game, learning every single TM in the game as well as having a ton of moves of his own on base 100 stats that can exploit anything equally well. That alone should show why it's imbalanced. Manaphy can exploit rest/hydration alongside tail glow to set up more reliably than just about anything in OU. I ran a damp rock zong and a rest/tailglow/surf/grass knot manaphy and believe me, I got to set up right off the bat a good 80% of the time, and once manaphy sets up you simply aren't going to kill it without losing 2 or 3 pokemon.

 

[morning storm]

i must say, this thread has been one of the most entertaining ive ever read on smogon.

some convincing arguments made by both sides.

the difference of perspectives and the subsequent subtle bias seen in -not just the arguments- but the very wording and expressing of ideas is simply great.

props to mods for not locking a seemingly futile discussion. i have the popcorn out. this is better than iron man.

[please continue the argument]

 

[Stagnant]

/garchomp thread

Because of this, the BL tier (and the tiers below it) offer you a lot more freedom. You can stick movesets on things that you would normally never use (belly drumming Linoone FTW), and expect to get some really satisfying results.

You mean you don't use Linoone in Ou? You should try it some time.

Ubers in Ou? Sure, why not. It's odd to me that people are asking for variety when, I think I'm safe to assume, their teams run the top 10 OU OU Pokes. Of course that is my assumption. People argue that creativity =/= competitiveness. While at the same time they argue 'a person who is more skilled should be able to win regardless of their 6 chosen Pokemon (to an extent)'.

Anyways, I say add them 600's to Ou and at the end of each month cutout the top 5 then Add back in the ones that were previously removed. Why? To presumably create a healthier metagame. As I see it 1 of 2 things is going to happen. 1. Once the pokemon are shuffled back in they become top 5. That would be the worse case scenario. 2. The month break would give people time to experiment with other pokes.

Of course this proposition has probably been suggested already. I see this suggestion in regards to.. If Uu pokes are being used to much (Ie. Miltank :( ) It get's shoved off to BL. If a BL poke is to good it goes to Ou. If a OU poke is to good and there is no true "Counter'' for it and its on every team because people are so gosh darn content with only winning no matter what and everyteam lacks creativity then that sir is a person using Garchomp on everyteam asking for Ubers in Ou.

It's simple Theorymon.
-_-