There is a clear difference between depending on another Pokemon to function and being considerably outclassed by something else. The attitude is completely unnecessary.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Pokemon Unfit for UU Analyses
- Thread starter Oglemi
- Start date
- Status
There is a clear difference between depending on another Pokemon to function and being considerably outclassed by something else. The attitude is completely unnecessary.
Actually, I'd consider Lapras. It has an interesting niche in ridiculous defenses alongside Curse and Battle Armor, meaning that it sweeps ridiculously hard if the opponent can't break it AND is immune to crithax. Sure, it has some annoying weaknesses, but 130/80/95 is unarguably awesome, and with Special Defense investment and a couple Curses under its belt, it can stand a solid chance of shutting down unprepared teams.
Note this is all based on theory and how it worked in Gen 4, but I'd be willing to give it a shot.
Note this is all based on theory and how it worked in Gen 4, but I'd be willing to give it a shot.
Why is Omastar getting a UU analysis, but not Carracosta, who has great balanced offenses, similar defenses, and a great movepool? I understand that Carracosta is a little bit slower, but Shell Smash helps fix that (like it does for Omastar) and he has Solid Rock.
The second time I whip this out.
IMO, Lapras does not deserve a UU analysis. It is stopped by phazers, Toxic Spikes, and it is weak to Stealth Rock of all things. Sure, after a few curses it can be hard to break, but when are you ever going to have the chance to set up even more than one? Everyone playing UU carries a powerful Fighting-type, be it Cobalion, Heracross, Gallade, the list goes on. Point being, crithax or not, Lapras sucks in the UU metagame. Its offenses are rather subpar as well, so its not like you are going to be doing any damage to most bulky Steel-types, and they can just toxic you in return, unless you are running Substitute, which forces Lapras to run fewer coverage moves. Like someone said before me, Hydration would really be the only reason to use Lapras, and since there is no permanant rain in UU, the ability is wasted on Lapras. I don't mean to outright defy you SDS, I just wish to put forth my opinion on Lapras.
Edit: Would Dragonair be viable for UU? It gets Shed Skin for status, ExtremeSpeed for priority, reasonable bulk for an NFE, especially with Eviolite, and a decently powerful Outrage. It also gets Dragon Dance and a host of coverage moves like Waterfall. It might be outclassed by Kingdra, but Shed Skin and ExtremeSpeed are nice additions.
Edit: Would Dragonair be viable for UU? It gets Shed Skin for status, ExtremeSpeed for priority, reasonable bulk for an NFE, especially with Eviolite, and a decently powerful Outrage. It also gets Dragon Dance and a host of coverage moves like Waterfall. It might be outclassed by Kingdra, but Shed Skin and ExtremeSpeed are nice additions.
No offence intended, but you seem to assume that Lapras is not allowed any team-mates to help support it. However, it has 5, and is perfectly capable of sweeping in UU.
All the reasons (apart from weakness to SR) that you cite for Lapras being sucky, are the same issues that Snorlax has, and Curselax is one of the best UU sweepers. Sure, Lapras has inferior defenses (slightly) and inferior attack, but it has a better STAB and even STAB priority.
Curselax also has resistance to Fire and Ice with Thick fat, not to mention better bulk, or if you are strange, immunity to Poison with (Immunity). Also, the thing is, if you run Curse, Waterfall, and Ice Shard, you only have room for one more move (rest), which leaves you open unless you forfeit a move for Sleep talk or pack a cleric. While I'm not bashing Lapras's potential, I just think that it isn't very viable for the UU metagame. It doesn't really provide a special niche or anything. Snorlax also has that nice base 110 Special Defense, which means it isn't owned by Special Attacks while Cursing. Lapras, on the other hand, still gets owned by special Electric-, and Grass-type moves, and +1 Ice Shard with no attack investment isn't gonna OHKO anything except Flygon and Altaria (since you are forced to run HP and SpD investment). Perhaps Lapras would be viable if it had enormous amounts of support, but I still don't think it'll fly in the UU metagame.
Also, Snorlax only has one weakness, and also an immunity. Lapras resists... Ice and Water. And is weak against: Fighting, Rock, Grass, Electric, all very common attacking types in UU.
EDIT: It's fine, Dragonair just popped into my mind, it is definitely outclassed lol
Also, Snorlax only has one weakness, and also an immunity. Lapras resists... Ice and Water. And is weak against: Fighting, Rock, Grass, Electric, all very common attacking types in UU.
EDIT: It's fine, Dragonair just popped into my mind, it is definitely outclassed lol
I've only tried Dragonair in RU, but even there it was kinda suckish compared to the other NFE Dragons. Like you said, it's utterly outclassed by Kingdra, and while Shed Skin is nice, even with the Eviolite Dragonair doesn't have the defenses to make use of it. What's worse, if you're using Eviolite, it takes upwards of 3 Dragon Dances to even attempt sweeping (iirc with LO Dragonair was just usable, i.e. it got cool KOs, in gen 4). I wouldn't allow it simply because of ExtremeSpeed, sorry.
chanazan's arguments against Lapras are pretty much the exact ones that popped into my head when it was suggested. Though, if someone can provide logs, I'd def consider letting Lapras get an analysis.
Ive been using kecleon as a subpuncher,special tank,and lead in even OU and it has been working out. It was NU last generation yes but it is the best counter to choiced special attackers out there (that can hit back) it also has a wide movepool which includes options such as trick room, trick, stealth rock, recover, magic coat, fake out, counter. I could go on for hours! so whadda ya say is kecleon deserving of an analysis.
edit: Kecleon is surprisingly bulky on the special side, with defensive stats slightly superior to Clefable's-quoted from kecleon's gen 4 page. i see the point about snorlax, forgot about him.
edit: Kecleon is surprisingly bulky on the special side, with defensive stats slightly superior to Clefable's-quoted from kecleon's gen 4 page. i see the point about snorlax, forgot about him.
No. If I want a special defensive Pokemon that can hit hard with a wide move pool, I'm going to use Snorlax. In more of a support role, Clefable.
No Kecleon.
No Kecleon.
WHY IS ZANGOOSE UNFIT FOR A UU ANALYSIS!!!!!! zangoose has base 115 attack and 90 speed, the swords dance set can deal quite a bit of damage, It is about as powerful as ursaring after a swords dance and life orb boost. it has superior speed from the start and has PRIORITY to hit faster threats. I think zangoose deserves an analysis, what do you say?
if not zangoose, what about relicanth? recoiless rock head head smash is always good, and it has some perks over aggron (water STAB and not having two 4x weaknesses). Relicanth isn't so bad.
if not zangoose, what about relicanth? recoiless rock head head smash is always good, and it has some perks over aggron (water STAB and not having two 4x weaknesses). Relicanth isn't so bad.
What about Glaceon? I run one on my hail team in a stall-style moveset(Because i ****ing hate walrein) And I find it to work incredibly well, in both UU and OU. In certain ways, it is even better than Walrein, as although it gives up a hefty amount of HP, it makes more than up for it with Much larger Defenses, and a huge Special attack, which can allow it to provide both offensve and defensive roles. Also, to the best of my recollection, Walrein's extra water typing grants no extra resistances, only extra weaknesses(Electric,Grass) where combined with Glaceon's defensive stats, it can not only take better hits than walrein, but it can hit back in a way where walrein just can't hack it.
Also, How did leafeon not get one when UU started? with a very impressive attack, decent coverage, a very high defense and chloryphyll, it has more than enough power to be a very threatening Sun-Sweeper.And, while drought may be banned now, that doesn't mean it can't still wreck havok on a sun team(It can also set up sunny day on it's own, btw)
Also, How did leafeon not get one when UU started? with a very impressive attack, decent coverage, a very high defense and chloryphyll, it has more than enough power to be a very threatening Sun-Sweeper.And, while drought may be banned now, that doesn't mean it can't still wreck havok on a sun team(It can also set up sunny day on it's own, btw)
Glaceon is actually usuable in UU, the only thing is that adding another Ice-type to a Hail team spells doom. Choice Scarf Glaceon is by far its most effective set (please don't say Ice Body helps it, it really doesn't). Glaceon would much rather abuse its Snow Cloak ability, than waste time trying to be Walrein. Glaceon has the strongest STAB Blizzard in the game, tied with Kyurem (who is banned), so thus it has the strongest STAB Blizzard in the tier. The priority that it is weak to is only commonly held by Hitmontop, but even now, most Hitmontop run Intimidate rather than Technician. In addition, it always survives a Life Orb, Technician-boosted Mach Punch at full health (77.2%-91.2%). I wouldn't say Glaceon is the best Hail abuser, or anything of that sort, but I do believe a Choice Set is viable (probably the Scarf set, idk about Specs). It's defenses are quite nice, sporting 110 base Defense and 95 base Special Defense, meaning it can take a neutral hit or two. Also, I've been swept by Choice Scarf Glaceon... 4-0ed me >.>
Anyway, I'll let QC weigh in on this.
Anyway, I'll let QC weigh in on this.
i agree, glaceon can really pull choiced sets off well while it's hailing. It's a pity its movepool is awful though
I'd like to make a Gigalith analysis, but its on the have to argue to make list. So I'm arguing here D:<. Sorry if this isn't the right place.
Gigalith is a pretty great 'mon when it comes to the physical attack and physical defense sets, having as much attack as Excadrill and about as much defense as Ferrothorn. While its speed may not be that up to par, there are several ways in which to counter this lacking, including, but not only, Baton Passing from a Speed Booster, Trick Room, Sturdy (which does help in situations of not moving first), access to Rock Polish, access to Bulldoze, etc.
As for what Gigalith can do, it's got a potential for both a physical wall and a sort of attacker that Snorlax is, also getting one of its greatest moves, Curse while also having some more suitable stats for having such a move (lower speed, higher attack/defense), and also a bit more of a situation to switch in.
In short, I believe that Gigalith could be a slightly different Snorlax, except now to wall in a whole new selection of moves, which are Psyshock and all other physical moves with its access to Curse and Iron Defense.
So yeah. If that's not enough I'll try to look more into Gigalith and see its moveset again.
Gigalith is a pretty great 'mon when it comes to the physical attack and physical defense sets, having as much attack as Excadrill and about as much defense as Ferrothorn. While its speed may not be that up to par, there are several ways in which to counter this lacking, including, but not only, Baton Passing from a Speed Booster, Trick Room, Sturdy (which does help in situations of not moving first), access to Rock Polish, access to Bulldoze, etc.
As for what Gigalith can do, it's got a potential for both a physical wall and a sort of attacker that Snorlax is, also getting one of its greatest moves, Curse while also having some more suitable stats for having such a move (lower speed, higher attack/defense), and also a bit more of a situation to switch in.
In short, I believe that Gigalith could be a slightly different Snorlax, except now to wall in a whole new selection of moves, which are Psyshock and all other physical moves with its access to Curse and Iron Defense.
So yeah. If that's not enough I'll try to look more into Gigalith and see its moveset again.
Zangoose and Relicanth are a no. Just because they have a niche doesn't mean that they are good enough for an analysis.
I'd really need to see some logs to base a decision on Glaceon. IMO it's always been sub-par, and having to rely on a Scarf set for something that's weak to SR and needs hail to be effective just seems to push it over the edge.
Gigalith sure does look good on paper but have you ever played with it Turtwig A? It's like a far worse Rhyperior or Aggron, not a different Snorlax. Snorlax and Gigalith don't even have a single thing in common except a weakness to Fighting and the move Curse. They are extremely different Curse users, and you mentioning Iron Defense as a perk makes me think you've never played a single game of UU. Try out Gigalith and get back to me when you think that it's actually usable.
I'd really need to see some logs to base a decision on Glaceon. IMO it's always been sub-par, and having to rely on a Scarf set for something that's weak to SR and needs hail to be effective just seems to push it over the edge.
Gigalith sure does look good on paper but have you ever played with it Turtwig A? It's like a far worse Rhyperior or Aggron, not a different Snorlax. Snorlax and Gigalith don't even have a single thing in common except a weakness to Fighting and the move Curse. They are extremely different Curse users, and you mentioning Iron Defense as a perk makes me think you've never played a single game of UU. Try out Gigalith and get back to me when you think that it's actually usable.
If Glaceon is getting an analysis just for a mediocre Scarf set, you might as well omit it and give one to Vanilluxe, since its Special Attack is still pretty good at base 115 and it can outspeed base 130s with a + nature. This is important when Aerodactyl cleans house on Hail teams for a living. Ice Body also mitigates Stealth Rock damage somewhat and gives it a little more bulk. Glaceon has this too, but its speed is still poor.
I wish I still had logs from when I used to use it though. Vanilluxe is awesome~
I wish I still had logs from when I used to use it though. Vanilluxe is awesome~
I think that Primeape should get an analysis. Primeape is the only viable fighting type in the tier with access to U-Turn (the others being Kojofuu and Monferno...). Anyways, this allows Primeape to fill a niche as a scout with a Choice Scarf. Primeape also gains access to powerful coverage moves such as Stone Edge. He also has Ice Punch to deal with Gligar switch-ins, so he could be a useful partner to Heracross. Okay time to stop rambling lol. Imo, Primeape should get an analysis. (If it gets approved I call dibs :{D)
Rampardos is a no. Just like Gigalith, it sounds fucking fantastic on paper, but I think it practice it's not good at all. Come back with a better argument or some logs if you want to convince me on that.
Primeape I'd like to see logs too. Last gen he could get by because there wasn't as many bulky Pokemon he had to work around, but I think the defenses are just a little over his head this time around. Also Flygon >>>>>>> Primeape, so if you could provide logs to show why STAB Close Combat is so much better than STAB Earthquake, I'd be all ears.
Primeape I'd like to see logs too. Last gen he could get by because there wasn't as many bulky Pokemon he had to work around, but I think the defenses are just a little over his head this time around. Also Flygon >>>>>>> Primeape, so if you could provide logs to show why STAB Close Combat is so much better than STAB Earthquake, I'd be all ears.
- Status