SPOILERS! Pokemon Sword & Shield Pre-Release SPOILERS - Check Post 2!

[earl]

I have to wonder if a Brave nature on Grimmsnarl plus Room Service would be a viable physical Trick Room sweeper. From what I can see, it's not in the best speed tier, and I'm not sure a Scarf is enough to help it.

Minimal speed investment on anything with 85 or lower speed will out speed virtually any normal mon under TR, room service is a bad item

 

[xfirecharmer]

I feel like you’re reading my posts in a different tone than intended (outside of unbanning aegi lol anyone who thinks that is dumb)
As for Trick Room, it’s always existed as a niche offensively play style. Never quite broke past the C ranks in OU, but there were things in OU specifically ranked for their trick room effectiveness. At and one point Trick Room Magearna was the best Magearna set. But otherwise I mostly agree that people are overhyping slow mons on trick room, but it’s a not a new generation without extreme overhyping of stuff that will end up as garbage (“Silvally will be the Arceus of UU” last gen lol)

I’m not sure on whether or not Trick Room will ever be anything but a niche offensive style, but this gen is really looking like it’ll at least be slightly better with it. There’s plenty of Pokémon that are exceptionally slow this gen with great stats, rather than Alola which was just seemingly somewhat slow with good stats elsewhere. Cursola is a prime example. It’ll definitely be better, but will it stand out? Hard to say.

I have to wonder if a Brave nature on Grimmsnarl plus Room Service would be a viable physical Trick Room sweeper. From what I can see, it's not in the best speed tier, and I'm not sure a Scarf is enough to help it.

Grimmsnarl is definitely going to be a Pokémon that relies on heavy prediction to do well. Negative nature base 60 speed with 0 IV’s is equal to a neutral base 38 speed, so it’s definitely viable under trick room, but I feel that really underserves what I think will be more hit and run style of play that they will excel at.

 

[Synral]

Just a nitpick: Dynamax is a poor idea on Aegislash as it gets locked out of its Shield Forme during its entire duration (unless you want to Max Guard three turns in a row).

Apart from that... no way it can stay in OU. You may think "but Dark types are more viable!" except all but Hydreigon are physical attackers so Aegislash can King's Shield. No Chansey means Shadow Ball has even less opposition now. No Mandibuzz means Head Smash is unnecessary (although Corviknight is a tough cookie, but otherwise this ends in a stalemate because unlike Celesteela, it cannot use Fire Blast). And there may be other advantages I'm forgetting of.

mandibuzz is in the dex, #284

 

[Pikachu315111]

...would all gimmicks at once even be possible?

I don't think so. Dynamax & Gigantamax is essentially a combination of Mega Evos & Z-Moves. A better idea would be finding a way to combine all of them together in a new mechanic or two:

Hyper State Mechanic:
1. Get rid of the "grows huge" visual gimmick, unneeded and doesn't work with some Mega Pokemon designs. That said, I can see them re-using Gigantamax designs, they'll just be more reasonably sized (still can be bigger than usual, but not outlandishly big).
2. All Pokemon can enter a plain "hyper state" that gives them the same stat increases as Dynamaxing.
3. And of course Pokemon with a special form (Mega Evo or Gigantamax) will have the option to enter that "super state" instead.
4. Either "hyper state" or "super state", it only lasts 3 turns.

Super Move Mechanic:
1. Pokemon will still have its normal moves even if it enters a hyper/super state.
2. Have both Z-Moves and Max Moves on offer.
3. The normal Z-Moves will be super powerful but have no additional effect.
4. The normal Max Moves are weaker in comparison but have their useful additional effect.
5. Signature Z-Moves and G-Max Moves would be combined as special "Signature Super Moves".

Also, another thing I'd like to see changed: More than one Pokemon can enter a hyper/super state and use a super move. Instead of just being something you instantly click how about doing what most RPGs do and have a bar you got a power bar that fills up during the battle (or maybe two, one for the hyper/super states and one for the super moves). When filled up at any time you can have the Pokemon enter hyper/super state or use a super move, and when done the bar will start filling again.

 

[HauntedPumpkin]

Where was it confirmed Stonjourner is Rock/Ground??

 

[Sexual Fresh Green]

Or your counter gets mashed because they decided to Dynamax that specific turn and now you're forced to Dynamax your Weavile to desperately take back momentum. It's not like the game asks you if you want to Dynamax when your opponent does, you just get boned. I don't see how any argument could be made that this will promote a healthy metagame.

Time to slap Protect on every Pokemon that can feasibly run it.



When was this ever confirmed.



So when you hold a Life Orb they are actually significantly more powerful than a Z move.

You are far, far, FAR too scared of Dynamax, dude. Nobodies attack gets raised- so just switch to the same pokemon that you walled the opposition with previously before the dynamax and almost nothing changes.

 

[MrHands]

You are far, far, FAR too scared of Dynamax, dude. Nobodies attack gets raised- so just switch to the same pokemon that you walled the opposition with previously before the dynamax and almost nothing changes.

The attack damage goes up. Functionally it's the same thing.

 

[DrPumpkinz]

I don't think so. Dynamax & Gigantamax is essentially a combination of Mega Evos & Z-Moves. A better idea would be finding a way to combine all of them together in a new mechanic or two:

Hyper State Mechanic:
1. Get rid of the "grows huge" visual gimmick, unneeded and doesn't work with some Mega Pokemon designs. That said, I can see them re-using Gigantamax designs, they'll just be more reasonably sized (still can be bigger than usual, but not outlandishly big).
2. All Pokemon can enter a plain "hyper state" that gives them the same stat increases as Dynamaxing.
3. And of course Pokemon with a special form (Mega Evo or Gigantamax) will have the option to enter that "super state" instead.
4. Either "hyper state" or "super state", it only lasts 3 turns.

Super Move Mechanic:
1. Pokemon will still have its normal moves even if it enters a hyper/super state.
2. Have both Z-Moves and Max Moves on offer.
3. The normal Z-Moves will be super powerful but have no additional effect.
4. The normal Max Moves are weaker in comparison but have their useful additional effect.
5. Signature Z-Moves and G-Max Moves would be combined as special "Signature Super Moves".

Also, another thing I'd like to see changed: More than one Pokemon can enter a hyper/super state and use a super move. Instead of just being something you instantly click how about doing what most RPGs do and have a bar you got a power bar that fills up during the battle (or maybe two, one for the hyper/super states and one for the super moves). When filled up at any time you can have the Pokemon enter hyper/super state or use a super move, and when done the bar will start filling again.

There's no way in hell this is going to become a regular meta. It's basically an OM, way more so than the National Dex meta.

Honestly, I can't see Nat Dex + Megas + Z-moves being a thing. You might as well make it Nat Dex + Megas + Z-moves + Gems + anything else that has ever been cut.

 

[PsychicAcademic]

That reminds me... will there be any reason to use Room Service when Iron Ball and Macho Brace exist?

It looks usable enough if you have a mon who works well in normal speed but may need to have Speed lowered in case of surprise TR by opponent. Maybe something with middling Spe (I like to call 70-90Spe "indecisive speed tier").

Then again, what are Protective Pads?

 

[Pikachu315111]

So, do we know how much Dyanamax increases stats? I imagine it probably raises all stats evenly.

Similar question if the above is known, does Gigantamax specialize the stat changes or does it increase stats the same way and it's only the G-Max Move that's the difference?

There's no way in hell this is going to become a regular meta. It's basically an OM, way more so than the National Dex meta.

Honestly, I can't see Nat Dex + Megas + Z-moves being a thing. You might as well make it Nat Dex + Megas + Z-moves + Gems + anything else that has ever been cut.

Not saying they would do exactly that, but would like to see them do something similar. Show they have some quantity of self-control and they're not going to create a new "equalizer" gimmick every generation along with specific forms for it (some for Pokemon that had a super from from a previous "equalizer" mechanic).

 

[earl]

So, do we know how much Dyanamax increases stats? I imagine it probably raises all stats evenly.

Similar question if the above is known, does Gigantamax specialize the stat changes or does it increase stats the same way and it's only the G-Max Move that's the difference?



Not saying they would do exactly that, but would like to see them do something similar. Show they have some quantity of self-control and they're not going to create a new "equalizer" gimmick every generation along with specific forms for it (some for Pokemon that had a super from from a previous "equalizer" mechanic).

Dynamax only boosts HP

It looks usable enough if you have a mon who works well in normal speed but may need to have Speed lowered in case of surprise TR by opponent. Maybe something with middling Spe (I like to call 70-90Spe "indecisive speed tier").

Then again, what are Protective Pads?

Protective Pads are a gen 7 item that negate contact effects (unless this is sarcasm about how niche but theoretically usable items are forgotten)

 

[Rarycaris]

So, do we know how much Dyanamax increases stats?

Apart from HP, it doesn't. We don't know about Gigantamax.

 

[VannAccessible]

While we’re on the subject of TR, it’s my favorite playstyle. Let’s talk about it!

Yes, it’s a pretty niche style in singles, but still really fun to play with, and is a natural counter to Hyper Offense and Web teams. We all know how great it can be in doubles.

Unfortunately, TR got hit pretty hard In the Dex purge. It lost its best offensive setter, Magenera, as well others like Stakataka, Hoopa U, Victini, Necrozma, and bulky passive setters like Cresselia, Uxie and Porygon2, and its best breakers in Mega Mawile, Marowak, Azurmarril and Tapu Bulu are gone as well. Bummer.

But it’s not all bad for TR. The biggest offensive counter to TR, Ash Greninja with its stupidly broken Specs Water Shuriken is gone, as is strong priority users like Scizor, Mega Lopunny and Mega Medicham, who’s Fake Out’s sap precious TR turns. Chansey is gone too, who was by far one of the biggest obstacles to TR momentum in singles is also gone.

As far as breakers go, Crawdaunt, who was always a strong breaker in Gen 7, is arguably better in Gen 8, having had a bunch of its counters removed from the Dex, namely Greninja, Mega Gyarados, Tapu Fini, Azurmarril, and Chestnaught. The only mons who resist its absurdly strong STABs now are Kommo-O, Hydregion, Dry Skin Toxicroak, none of whom run defensive sets, and Whimsicott and Shiinotic both of whom are really uncommon. Furthermore, without Mega Evos and Z Crystals, Knock Off is a lot more spammable, as even resists won’t appreciate losing their items.

Something else that’s notable, I think it’s really probable that Runerigus will have Trick Room, as most ghosts do. With Cofagirus tier defensive stats and a typing synergy that really complements Crawdaunt, you have yourselves the beginnings of a potently frightening TR core. With any luck Runerigus will retain Memento as Cofagirus does, as well as potentially gain Stealth Rock, making an excellent suicide setter, like the now deceased Uxie.

Also, from the looks of Copperajah’s stats and Sheer Force, with the right moves (Thunder, Fire, Ice Fang etc) it could also do very well.

And then, the new throat spray item giving an immediate Sp Attack boosts on using sound moves, slow powerful mons like Hyper Voice Sylveon and Bug Buzz Vikavolt will be absolutely terrifying special breakers.

Then there’s still other staple setters like Mimikyu, Reunclius, Bronzong and breakers like Conkledurr, Araquanid, Diggersby and it doesn’t look too bad.

TR will still be a fun play style, but only time will tell how well it works. I’ll at least give it a shot in Singles anyway. :)

 

[TenshouYoku]

The attack damage goes up. Functionally it's the same thing.

Not nearly as much as Z-moves, though. At best it's a 1.2x - 1.3x for most common moves rather than the 1.6-1.7x mega nuke Z-moves tend to become which knocks many supposed counters/checks into oblivion.

 

[DrPumpkinz]

Not saying they would do exactly that, but would like to see them do something similar. Show they have some quantity of self-control and they're not going to create a new "equalizer" gimmick every generation along with specific forms for it (some for Pokemon that had a super from from a previous "equalizer" mechanic).

Oh, I thought you were actually suggesting something Smogon could do, not going on another of your "Game Freak should reuse every design because reasons" rants.

 

[Shadowmax]

Honestly, I can't see Nat Dex + Megas + Z-moves being a thing. You might as well make it Nat Dex + Megas + Z-moves + Gems + anything else that has ever been cut.

Why Not?, if you use a Z move you cannot Dynamax, if you megaevolved you cannot dynamax, If you Dynamax you cannot megaevolve or use your z item, plain easy. Gems are treated like regular items so they can work with Dynamax (depending if the items have any effect while the pokemon is in a dynamax state)

 

[Yung Dramps]

While we’re on the subject of TR, it’s my favorite playstyle. Let’s talk about it!

Yes, it’s a pretty niche style in singles, but still really fun to play with, and is a natural counter to Hyper Offense and Web teams. We all know how great it can be in doubles.

Unfortunately, TR got hit pretty hard In the Dex purge. It lost its best offensive setter, Magenera, as well others like Stakataka, Hoopa U, Victini, Necrozma, and bulky passive setters like Cresselia, Uxie and Porygon2, and its best breakers in Mega Mawile, Marowak, Azurmarril and Tapu Bulu are gone as well. Bummer.

But it’s not all bad for TR. The biggest offensive counter to TR, Ash Greninja with its stupidly broken Specs Water Shuriken is gone, as is strong priority users like Scizor, Mega Lopunny and Mega Medicham, who’s Fake Out’s sap precious TR turns. Chansey is gone too, who was by far one of the biggest obstacles to TR momentum in singles is also gone.

As far as breakers go, Crawdaunt, who was always a strong breaker in Gen 7, is arguably better in Gen 8, having had a bunch of its counters removed from the Dex, namely Greninja, Mega Gyarados, Tapu Fini, Azurmarril, and Chestnaught. The only mons who resist its absurdly strong STABs now are Kommo-O, Hydregion, Dry Skin Toxicroak, none of whom run defensive sets, and Whimsicott and Shiinotic both of whom are really uncommon. Furthermore, without Mega Evos and Z Crystals, Knock Off is a lot more spammable, as even resists won’t appreciate losing their items.

Something else that’s notable, I think it’s really probable that Runerigus will have Trick Room, as most ghosts do. With Cofagirus tier defensive stats and a typing synergy that really complements Crawdaunt, you have yourselves the beginnings of a potently frightening TR core. With any luck Runerigus will retain Memento as Cofagirus does, as well as potentially gain Stealth Rock, making an excellent suicide setter, like the now deceased Uxie.

Also, from the looks of Copperajah’s stats and Sheer Force, with the right moves (Thunder, Fire, Ice Fang etc) it could also do very well.

And then, the new throat spray item giving an immediate Sp Attack boosts on using sound moves, slow powerful mons like Hyper Voice Sylveon and Bug Buzz Vikavolt will be absolutely terrifying special breakers.

Then there’s still other staple setters like Mimikyu, Reunclius, Bronzong and breakers like Conkledurr, Araquanid, Diggersby and it doesn’t look too bad.

TR will still be a fun play style, but only time will tell how well it works. I’ll at least give it a shot in Singles anyway. :)

Trick Room is actually pretty good from what we can tell so far! The meta is very offensive rn and Trick Room is good at cteaming that and abusing Dynamax is the tl;dr

 

[Blitz]

I've had a few requests for adding the known new items, so I've gone and added them all in the doc under a "New Items" tab. Please let me know if I'm missing anything / have a mistake.

Changelog:

New Items

Competitive Held Items:

Throat Spray - Raises Special Attack when a Pokémon uses a sound-based move.
Blunder Policy - Raises Speed sharply when a Pokémon misses with a move because of accuracy.
Heavy-Duty Boots - These boots prevent the effects of traps set on the battlefield.
Eject Pack - When the holder's stats are lowered, it will be switched out of battle.
Room Service - Lowers Speed in Trick Room.
Rusted Shield - When held, transforms Zamazenta into its Crowned Shield Forme. Changes its stats and gains an added Steel-type.

Presumed Item:
[Rusted Sword] - When held, transforms Zacian into its [Crowned Sword] Forme. Changes its stats and gains an added Steel-type.

Other Items:

Tart Apple - Used to evolve Applin to Appletun.
Milcery Sweets - Used to evolve Milcery into Alcremie. Known variants: Clover Sweet, Star Sweet
Nature Mints - Given to a Pokémon to give it the boosts and nerfs of the corresponding Nature (basically a Nature changer). Does not change actual Nature. Examples: Hasty Mint, Naughty Mint, Timid Mint.
Exp Candy - Boosts a Pokémon's Experience. | Known variants: Exp Candy XS, Exp Candy S, Exp Candy M, Exp Candy L, Exp Candy XL

 

[Pikachu315111]

Dynamax only boosts HP

Well that's rather disappointing. Infact I'd say it defeats the whole purpose of the growing big visual if the Pokemon doesn't even become stronger.

Oh, I thought you were actually suggesting something Smogon could do, not going on another of your "Game Freak should reuse every design because reasons" rants.

Sorry I care about the franchise and I don't want to see if go through mechanical bloat.

 

[MrHands]

Not nearly as much as Z-moves, though. At best it's a 1.2x - 1.3x for most common moves rather than the 1.6-1.7x mega nuke Z-moves tend to become which knocks many supposed counters/checks into oblivion.

Yeah but you can hold an item. We've seen from previous calculations it gives a 25% boost minimum meaning a Fire Blast boosted by Life Orb and Dynamax has at least 178 base power which puts it just below Inferno Overdrive's 185... except your HP doubles and you can vomit out three Max moves and ALL of your moves get boosted not just the single Z type you choose.

 

[Suppletangerine]

Your agitated responses to most things in this thread bring me life.

Also I just gotta say cuz I've seen it a lot in this thread and it irritates me. Trick room is not an effective or very viable playstyle for a smogon singles team. No pokemon is going to be tiered based on how lethal they can be in trick room. Trick room is a tool with some potency in vgc, but yall nuts if you think trick room usage is going to effect smogon tiers. It's never been an effective playstyle and it probably wont be. I'd almost argue its potency in vgc is even questionable, but that's a whole nother arguement.

If a pokemon needs trick room to be viable at all, it's bad. That's all, thanks for coming to my TED talk.

Just because it’s not as viable doesn’t mean it’s not a fun strategy to use. This game isn’t always about winning in the most straightforward way possible.

That said it sucks that 4 gens later trick room finally gets its first support and it comes in the form of a terrible item. They did terrain extenders as soon as the surge abilities were introduced, I don’t see why they can’t do the same for trick room.

 

[Siggu]

Well that's rather disappointing. Infact I'd say it defeats the whole purpose of the growing big visual if the Pokemon doesn't even become stronger.

It does get stronger. It gets increased toughness from the extra 50% HP.

 

[RWB]

I was looking through the fairly limited stable of Fire-types we have this time around(only 12, and quite a few returnees are underwhelming).
The most notable of the bunch seem to be Cinderace(116 Atk, 119 speed and already looking like it will have fairly good coverage), Centiskorch(Dunno about it, seems strong but maybe it's stats are spread too evenly to find a niche? Also Boots) and Chandelure. Maybe Salazzle if it gets more coverage this gen.
Is this gonna be the main group of Fire contenders?

 

[PsychicAcademic]

Protective Pads are a gen 7 item that negate contact effects (unless this is sarcasm about how niche but theoretically usable items are forgotten)

Well...

Anyway, Blitz have updated the post with comprehensive new item list found so far.
And maybe, just careful everyone, not to turn this too much into a pseudo-suspect thread. I don't think DHR will like that.

 

[MrHands]

I believe with the GameInformer they stated that Dynamax Size growth was one of the reasons that Dexit occured: They are like 90+ Ft, meaning they are huge to store in game files. This probably why Dexit occured in the first place ( or at least a reason why ) they couldn't figure out a way to use Dynamax models + all 800 Pokemon.

That's not even remotely how model storage works. Even if they for some reason made hyper-detailed models of these big Pokemon there's no way the expanded textures would fill up the game cartridge.

And if somehow that is true then Gamefreak's entire leading staff should be fired for incompetence if they thing the fans would rather have "big Pikachu" over half the existing Pokedex.