Pokémon Unite

Yung Dramps

awesome gaming
Look all this collective grumbling about this being a scheme to siphon money via child gambling is fine and all but I have so far been given no reason to believe any of this is in good faith. I can't even really rant specifically towards this fanbase because this is a broader issue with the gaming community as a whole but everytime this kinda crap happens it just leads to a lot of whining that more often than not goes nowhere. Considering how morally bankrupt the average gamer is I am certain very few of the people complaining rn actually give a shit about the people they're trying to "protect" and will often flip-flop on their position (e.g. "it's ok if it's cosmetic"). I don't agree with everything Jim Sterling says but I have profound amounts of respect for him because he has an actual spine and talks because he believes what companies like EA and such do is wrong and should be called out, not because it's the trendy outrage of the month. For an example of what I've talking about: Remember when the brave and valiant moral warrior gamers shat all over Blizzard for cowtowing to China by banning Blitzchung and kept that pressure up, haunting them with boycotts and protests for months on end? Oh wait, that didn't even last until that year's Blizzcon. If they couldn't even be arsed to keep it up for something actually important like that then why should I have any confidence that this'll be any different and that it won't be forgotten in 3 weeks or have an impact of any kind on the parties involved? Going back to the Pokefandom specifically don't even get me started on the blatant hypocrisy concerning how nobody complained about this shit for games like Masters and Duel but now are all up in arms about this despite us not even having info on how monetization will work.

tl;dr this all just reeks of
 
Going back to the Pokefandom specifically don't even get me started on the blatant hypocrisy concerning how nobody complained about this shit for games like Masters and Duel but now are all up in arms about this despite us not even having info on how monetization will work.
For me at least, it's disgusting in those games too. I guess maybe the reason there wasn't as much outcry was because they weren't predatory from the outset like MOBAs apparently are, or maybe because MOBAs have other pre-established negative assumptions like toxic playerbases that exacerbate the problem? I'm not really sure.
 
For me at least, it's disgusting in those games too. I guess maybe the reason there wasn't as much outcry was because they weren't predatory from the outset like MOBAs apparently are, or maybe because MOBAs have other pre-established negative assumptions like toxic playerbases that exacerbate the problem? I'm not really sure.
I definitely think part of it is that this is being developed with a very well-known company and said company's not liked at all. With something you never heard of, you think "let's see what they can do." With something like Tencent, there's a lot more of "this isn't going to be any better than their last game, is it?"

Then there's the people that were optimistic about Masters or whatever but are no longer enthused about pokemon mobile games expressly because those earlier entries still were handled questionably.
 
Anyone have a quick explanation of what's wrong with Tencent? Not familiar with them.
Tencent is a massive conglomerate and one of the largest companies in the world. A good analogy I’ve heard compares it to a nation specific PayPal + Amazon + Facebook rolled into the same company. They run some of China’s most popular social media and IM apps. They are widely used as a way for foreign gaming companies to enter the Chinese gaming marketplace.

The problems are mainly that Tencent is not terribly moral with the information they collect and exert a pressure on their many foreign business partners not to anger the Chinese government.

Tencent has a habit of sharing their data with the Chinese government. This data can range from anything from facial recognition information to (extremely unethical) social credit scoring systems. The government is relatively free to use this information as they like.

Tencent not only has a huge number of business partners, but it also owns large portions of American companies, which passively exerts a pressure for them to follow whatever the will of the Chinese government is to keep a product alive in China. This flaired up back last October when NBA members and Esports players voiced their support of the Hong Kong protests and American companies like Disney and Activision responded to smooth things over for the Chinese market with unnerving speed.

This is all on top of the normal predatory F2P money making system but, honestly, it feels miles less offensive then everything about Tencent. I’m pretty numb to these monetizing methods at this point. It’s bad, but from my personal interactions with children at my local Pokémon league (pre corona times, of course) even younger children are aware of the weight these systems things have and not feed them money. On Pokémon Master’s release, they were all at best saying to stay free to play or most brutally calling it a dumb gacha game.

As a response to a few other posts here, People hating on Tencent is not another BBND pissing party. That was people wanting more out of their product descending into a never ending bitching whirlpool. Tencent is a completely different ballgame where the developer is part of a business actively contributing to atrocities with what they do.

I realize that plenty of other companies are also monstrous humanitarian nightmares, but Tencent in particular is a powerful motor of the authoritarian practices of the Chinese government. I don’t like seeing Pikachu get close to that.
 
did everyone forget about all the other microtransaction-focused games this series has put out in the past like 5 years.

Like, not that microtransactions aren't a Problem just...thhis isnt anyone's first rodeo here.
I think the issue is that those were generally single-player games? This is the first multiplayer game, and as DreamPrince said, the main concern is "Specifically that there will be advantages for people who pay vs people who don’t."
Not that people like them in single-player games either, but a competitive multiplayer game with microtransactions has a lot more room for trouble than a game where your purchases don't affect anything but your solo experience. I can understand why people are upset about it in this case.
 
This game seems cool and fun. Haters need to step off. Let me enjoy things; go complain about disappointed expectations somewhere else. I love Pokemon and like MOBAS, and this one seems more fastpaced and fun like Heroes of the Storm.

Can we have a thread for this where people can actually talk about what strategies they see, gameplay, etc.? I don't mind that people are annoyed by this now, but I want a thread for people who are actually interested in the game when the game comes out. I assume people will stop caring in a week from now, but just in case there's still people who want to whine about the game more than they actually play it, I want a thread dedicated to discussion.
 

Yung Dramps

awesome gaming
I want to make something clear: I barely see you post anywhere, at least not on this forum, and judging by what you have posted thus far I have no reason to believe you are anything but a good, sincere person who clings unflinchingly to their values and stands for what is right.

But this?
As a response to a few other posts here, People hating on Tencent is not another BBND pissing party. That was people wanting more out of their product descending into a never ending bitching whirlpool. Tencent is a completely different ballgame where the developer is part of a business actively contributing to atrocities with what they do.
This is a grave miscalculation.

There is no reason for me to sugarcoat things, so I'm going to make it crystal clear: Online gaming communities are conglomerates of utterly worthless, weak, stupid people with nothing so much as resembling moral fiber. It's a cold, brutal truth that I myself had to learn in a shocking, miserable fashion, but it's one you have to bash into your skull no matter how much the realization hurts. As I alluded to in my previous post: Thinking that the people screaming at Game Freak right now are getting mad due to a moral injustice is foolish and naive. Thinking that they genuinely care for the struggles of those oppressed by the CCP regime is foolish and naive. You alluded to the Blitzchung scandal and, like I also mentioned in my last post, where did that go? Not even a full month of vigilant protest before the whole thing fell through and was swept under the rug by everyone involved. Because gamers do not care. All their cries of protecting children and protesting the CCP's injustices are all a mask to hide their true, selfish intentions: A videogame company made a choice they did not like and it got them into a temper tantrum.


I don't know what you're gonna do from here. Will you try to look into ways to support Hong Kong's freedom fighters in any way you can? Perhaps you already have and I'm just not aware? Maybe you'll boycott future Pokemon products? Or maybe you too will resort to empty slacktivism like so many others? I don't know and I don't particularly care to find out. If you pick some of the more intensive options just realize that the pool of people who will stand alongside you to that extent is much much smaller than it appears.

DTC is right, I'm done clogging up this thread with tangents about a game I will never play. I'll lurk a bit but this is my last post on the matter. Feel free to respond, if I follow up in kind it'll be via DMs, not on here.
 
For the record, I think Giratina93 and TheMantyke are bringing up valid concerns. I just want a place to actually discuss the gameplay when it comes out. There's been no almost no discussion about the actual gameplay itself here, which bothers me because I wanted to see a place where I could read about potential game mechanics, strategies and such.

And I want to find fellow Smogon buds who would play the game with me!
 
I think the issue is that those were generally single-player games? This is the first multiplayer game, and as DreamPrince said, the main concern is "Specifically that there will be advantages for people who pay vs people who don’t."
Not that people like them in single-player games either, but a competitive multiplayer game with microtransactions has a lot more room for trouble than a game where your purchases don't affect anything but your solo experience. I can understand why people are upset about it in this case.
Thing about most of the solo experiences is they often still have asynchronous multiplayer & competitions anyway.
Shuffle is a god damn nightmare of a game that I hate with all my being and its competitions were fierce until the playerbase died off
I don't think Masters has competitive multiplayer but the high end content is definitely something and the coop aspects do kind of require heavy gachaing (or, at least, absurd grinding) to stay "competitive"

on the flip side

Duel (that died) was a gacha with I'm pretty sure actual competitive aspects to it
So was that rumble game (that also died)


Union, meanwhile, I'm guessing will have what I think is the usual moba model (or at least LOL's): rotating free units anyone can use, but also you can just buy a unit to always have them.

Like it's all predatory (I want to again point out that a game launched TODAY, whose main point will definitely be fuck you hard puzzles that oh hey you can spend a bunch of money on to make easier or get things or whatever), but to be frank it will probably not be any more predatory than the gachas. Which yes is damning with faint praise, it's just weird to see soooo many people mysteriously come out of the wood work about it now.
 
Uhh, this is leaning really hard off topic and very awkwardly interpersonal?

I feel talking about Tencent’s alarm bells is fairly on topic and worthy of being in the conversation when discussing Pokémon Unite given they’re the dev. I don’t mod OI anymore so I can’t say for sure what the mod team wants, but elaborating on why Tencent has a sour taste seems like genuinely useful information relevant to the game. This is all especially true right now when there’s minimal gameplay and mechanics to mull over from the 11 minutes on hand.

Discussing whether or not all gamer rage is hollow rage with other motives or what I’m personally going to do to support the Hong Kong protests is a degree too far removed, I feel.
 
Thing about most of the solo experiences is they often still have asynchronous multiplayer & competitions anyway.
Shuffle is a god damn nightmare of a game that I hate with all my being and its competitions were fierce until the playerbase died off
I don't think Masters has competitive multiplayer but the high end content is definitely something and the coop aspects do kind of require heavy gachaing (or, at least, absurd grinding) to stay "competitive"

on the flip side

Duel (that died) was a gacha with I'm pretty sure actual competitive aspects to it
So was that rumble game (that also died)


Union, meanwhile, I'm guessing will have what I think is the usual moba model (or at least LOL's): rotating free units anyone can use, but also you can just buy a unit to always have them.

Like it's all predatory (I want to again point out that a game launched TODAY, whose main point will definitely be fuck you hard puzzles that oh hey you can spend a bunch of money on to make easier or get things or whatever), but to be frank it will probably not be any more predatory than the gachas. Which yes is damning with faint praise, it's just weird to see soooo many people mysteriously come out of the wood work about it now.
I must say that Shuffle could easily be done FTP. I started day one and obtained everything without ever having to pay a single cent. Same with the new Cafe Mix game (which looks super cute, loving the artstyle). I'm currently at stage 55 and have not been forced to stop because I was out of hearts, cause the game is pretty easy so far.
I can't say anything about Duel or Masters, cause both are blocked in my country for having a lootbox system. (Which says enough about how problematic my government thinks loopholes are)

Having said that, I fully agree with you that microtransactions/lootboxes are awful and predatory. (Especially for young children, which are a major target audience for the pokemon franchise). I would rather pay 30 bucks to just play the game normally,which is what I did with rumble world and that worked great imo. I guess its just a result of the more mobile focused strategy we have seen in the last few years. It favours ftp due to the fact that the casual audience doesnt really want to pay for something before trying the game itself and we have seen how well that worked for Pokemon Go.
 

Pyritie

TAMAGO
is an Artist
For the record, I think Giratina93 and TheMantyke are bringing up valid concerns. I just want a place to actually discuss the gameplay when it comes out. There's been no almost no discussion about the actual gameplay itself here, which bothers me because I wanted to see a place where I could read about potential game mechanics, strategies and such.
is there even anything to talk about with the gameplay? it looks like they just took an extremely generic moba template and slapped a couple pokemon on it. Like others have said in this thread, everything about this looks extremely safe and designed in a boardroom. Even if tencent had nothing to do with this (their involvement is reason alone to go nowhere near this game), everything about this game screams shallow and bland and designed to psychologically manipulate people into being addicts and wasting away their money.
 
is there even anything to talk about with the gameplay? it looks like they just took an extremely generic moba template and slapped a couple pokemon on it. Like others have said in this thread, everything about this looks extremely safe and designed in a boardroom. Even if tencent had nothing to do with this (their involvement is reason alone to go nowhere near this game), everything about this game screams shallow and bland and designed to psychologically manipulate people into being addicts and wasting away their money.
I think you are weaponizing emotion and trying to pass it off as the truth. The fact is you don't know. You don't know enough to say that this game is shallow, or manipulative, or whatever. You might be right, and I will reserve judgment until the game comes out, but you should reserve your final judgment until the game comes out too. Your perspective is shared by a lot of people on this forum and elsewhere, but I want the perspective of people who are actually interested in playing this game.

I remember when everyone told me Mario x Rabbids looked awful before we knew a lot of details, and their tune changed once we knew more.
 
I am just going to say that there isn't ethical consumption under capitalism. Tencent, Apple, Nintendo and Game Freak are varying degrees of bad. Pokémon being a greedy franchise isn't a new development, it's there since the begginning as The Pokémon Company popularized selling the same game twice over, the difference between versions are minimal yet there are people who buy both. If you want to play a Pokémon game that is greed free go play Pokémon Smile.

I never played a MOBA before but I'll give Unite a try, it has evolutions, different moves for each mon that are learned by leveling up. Maybe it's pretty standard MOBA fare but it is pretty standard Pokémon too, something that other spin-offs couldn't even achieve.

The type chart doesn't apply so I would say the roster was selected primarily by popularity which makes Talonflame choice really surprising.
 

facu

ne me mori facias
Let's keep it simple: The only interesting point of Pokémon Unite is that the leveling will allow your Pokémon to evolve in-game, the rest is nothing new on the MOBAs world.

By the way, I don't understand why they continue betting on mobile gaming. This one is the worst port for gaming and there is literally NOTHING attractive. I thought they learned something from the Diablo Immortal reveal.
 
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Gravity Monkey

Que des barz comme si jtais au hebs
is a Top Artist
Let's keep it simple: The only interesting point of Pokémon Unite is that the leveling will allow your Pokémon to evolve in-game, the rest is nothing new on the MOBAs world.

By the way, I don't understand why they are still looking for something in mobile gaming. This one is the worst port for gaming and there is literally NOTHING attractive.
Personalizing your move kit during the game? The tower system with heals/capture points? And on the topic of capture points, literally the core of the game mode and how objective works? If anything, the fact that the pokemon evolve by gaining levels is the least interesting addition to the formula considering its purely cosmetic.

Also, I really don't get this jab at mobile games for two things. First, I think the answer to your question should be obvious: Mobile gaming has a way bigger market than console games have. Not that many people actually own a switch, at least compared to the part of the population that owns a cellphone. Second, this game is on the switch! Like, what are you complaining about? If you want that more hardcore experience on an actual console, well there you go! At least let people like me who don't own a switch be able to enjoy the game anyway. I have trouble seeing how they could have made a better compromise than this.

Sorry if I came a bit harsh in my response, but what you addressed really ticked me off. There's a lot to criticize in this game and its campaign, but I don't think those are valid points at all.
 

facu

ne me mori facias
Personalizing your move kit during the game? The tower system with heals/capture points? And on the topic of capture points, literally the core of the game mode and how objective works? If anything, the fact that the pokemon evolve by gaining levels is the least interesting addition to the formula considering its purely cosmetic.

Also, I really don't get this jab at mobile games for two things. First, I think the answer to your question should be obvious: Mobile gaming has a way bigger market than console games have. Not that many people actually own a switch, at least compared to the part of the population that owns a cellphone. Second, this game is on the switch! Like, what are you complaining about? If you want that more hardcore experience on an actual console, well there you go! At least let people like me who don't own a switch be able to enjoy the game anyway. I have trouble seeing how they could have made a better compromise than this.

Sorry if I came a bit harsh in my response, but what you addressed really ticked me off. There's a lot to criticize in this game and its campaign, but I don't think those are valid points at all.
All the new features you named are totally irrelevant on a new MOBA game. Considering that League of Legends dominates in this terrain, basically you are expanding your franchise too risky (memes arrive and the community express their displeasure), but obviously you aren't interested on those things if your game is a P2W and your pupils are shining with a $.

I'm not against your hype for the game, but I hope you understand that the gaming community doesn't work in this pathetic way of wanting to generate a new income.
 
This is the most exciting spin-off title in this franchise in concept. I said it.

Let's get the complaints out of the way:
  • "It's not a Gen IV remake"
  • "It's not Gen IX"
  • "It's not Crown Tundra news"
  • "It's not Let's Go Johto!"
  • "There's too many Gen I Pokémon"
  • "It's another Free 2 Play game"
OK good, so now we can talk about the game itself.

The Switch doesn't have any notable MOBAs on it, so this is a wide open market and more importantly playerbase in order to develop into something actually pretty huge. The mobile market having crossplay would have excited me massively a few years ago too, since it's easier to hide a phone under your desk at school than a Switch.

The mechanics of the game? Honestly they seem good. There's nothing groundbreaking here, but having customisation and branching in-game choices is nice and if they balance everything properly it should lead to having to cater your movesets depending on matchup, which helps to prevent gameplay getting stale. The combat seems relatively diverse for a mobile-catered MOBA with at least a discernible difference between long ranged and short ranged attacks, and fusion attacks as a gambit / nuke move. The impression I got of the game from the trailer is it isn't just a generic MOBA with a Pokémon skin, rather that it's a Pokémon game morphed into a MOBA. And that's exciting.

As far as micro-transactions are concerned: Yes, there will be micro-transactions because it's a MOBA and MOBAs have micro-transactions. That's how they're designed and it's how they've been designed for years. I don't quite understand why this is being criticised because it's not gonna be a "spend 5 hearts to play a game, they'll slowly refill or you can spend money to keep playing!" system. MOBAs rely on having a large cast of characters to cater to lots of different playstyles and roles. Characters usually have a period of time where they're free to try out on a constant rotation, so players can get a feel for the playstyles and decide which characters to use their collected in-game currency on. If you play fairly consistently, you'll never have to spend irl money at all in order to pick up the characters that you get along with. Usually the only things locked behind a paywall are skins, but it's more standard in MOBAs to give out free lootboxes than in other genres.

Let's look at the Pokémon included so far:
  • Venusaur
  • Charizard
  • Blastoise
  • Pikachu
  • Clefable
  • Machamp
  • Gengar
  • Snorlax
  • Lucario
  • Talonflame
It's relatively impossible that this is the final roster of characters. MOBAs depend on a wide variety of characters both to fill different roles on a team, and to cater to different playstyles in those given roles. 10 Pokémon simply isn't enough, and so the fact that 8 of those 10 are the Gen I staples shouldn't be too concerning. This is still the hype-building stage and it seems that they're taking building hype seriously by revealing this game a week later than the others in its own video. It allows for the announcement video to be shared around and for MOBA players to see characters they recognise, but also ones they don't but that still appeal to the male-dominated 20-40 year old playerbase that MOBAs have, like Talonflame. Plus. the whole point of MOBAs is that more characters are released one-by-one for years after the game is first released, as long as the playerbase is there for it. And even if they're not playable, the wild Pokémon are pretty diverse including characters like Joltik, Rotom and Swablu, who would be fairly difficult to turn into player-controlled characters looking at the mechanics (requiring long-ranged and short-ranged attacks).

tl;dr Sorry that this wasn't what you were expecting, but this is the first time Pokémon has tried to expand into a new genre since GO and it's needless to say that that went well. Micro-transactions are standard in MOBAs and it's also standard not to make players feel like they're really missing out if they don't spend money, so if you don't want to make use of the micro-transactions, don't and you'll still be able to get mileage out of the game. And this isn't being developed by Game Freak so honestly we can have high hopes -- the past few years have shown that third parties are better at making Pokémon games than Game Freak themselves are.

Appreciate this for what it is because what it is is really cool.
Let's keep it simple: The only interesting point of Pokémon Unite is that the leveling will allow your Pokémon to evolve in-game, the rest is nothing new on the MOBAs world.

By the way, I don't understand why they continue betting on mobile gaming. This one is the worst port for gaming and there is literally NOTHING attractive. I thought they learned something from the Diablo Immortal reveal.
I’m pretty sure it’s because 95% of the population has a smartphones, and smartphones are the most popular form of gaming in Japan.

Anyway, I’m not buying this game. I’ve never been a fan of freemium games and micro transactions, hence mobile games. Not interested in another competitive game, Pokemon is already enough devotion to learn and master metagames. Also I support Hong Kong.

Does Fortnite and Overwatch not count as MOBAs?
 

Gravity Monkey

Que des barz comme si jtais au hebs
is a Top Artist
All the new features you named are totally irrelevant on a new MOBA game. Considering that League of Legends dominates in this terrain, basically you are expanding your franchise too risky (memes arrive and the community express their displeasure), but obviously you aren't interested on those things if your game is a P2W and your pupils are shining with a $.

I'm not against your hype for the game, but I hope you understand that the gaming community doesn't work in this pathetic way of wanting to generate a new income.
I don't think Pokemon Unite is reaching for the same demographic as League of Legends either considering it's on the switch, it's using an IP whose playerbase is more considered more casual and wouldn't normally be interested in this sort of game, and that both are owned by the same company (lol). Also, League is big, but I wouldn't say it dominates. It has strong competitors in the likes of Dota 2 and Arena of Valor, the latter being arguably bigger than it in China.

Also, are the innovations that irrelevant? Like, isn't it the proof that there's at least a shred of will to improve on the formula and make something interesting to play, however small it is? Like, yeah, obviously the game is here to make money (like pretty much any game that's released by an actual video game company backed by investors id want to say), but I don't think that's an excuse to dismiss the existence a game that you have only seen 5 minutes of just based on the fact that it's of a specific genre. Like, would it be fair to consider every FPS game that came after Doom to be a cash grab? I'd also like to address the fact that I've yet to see a MOBA that is p2w. The closest thing I can think of would be Brawl Stars, which is far from the formula that Unite seems to be going for (and which is made by SuperCell, the company behind Clash of Clans lol). Your progression in MOBAs is only dictated by the time you put in the game and your skill, the "real money" aspect only affect cosmetics (which you can debate the ethics of, but that's not really your point).

So yeah, give the game a chance lol, it might actually be a bit valid and not just be a stupid cash grab.

Finally, some food for thoughts for everyone: It's probably not as much as Game Freak trying to cash in the MOBA genre as Tencent trying to cash in the pokemon franchise. One clearly has more to gain than the other. With that in mind, peace out o/
 
Does Fortnite and Overwatch not count as MOBAs?
Overwatch is quite close to being a MOBA, with two teams controlling characters with unique abilities (many MOBAs use cooldown systems for abilities as well). It does however lack an experience system and the role/map design favours 6v6 brawls rather than splitting attention between multiple fronts (two of the larger strategic considerations for your average MOBA). Fortnite isn't even close, since there's no teams, the primary objective is not related to holding positions on the map, and there is no meaningful character choice that would affect composition of the nonexistent teams.
 
Well, the thing is, a child wouldn't know how to use a credit card of all things so how does this schtick that "TPC going mobile for their games and then making a MOBA for console AND mobile" will lead to kids causing their families to go bankrupt? This kind of thing makes literally no sense and it's extremely rare for someone to go ahead and do this.

The only exception I can think of this is if a guy with a spending addiction gets his/her own credit card somehow. I know this kind of monetization is unacceptable, but why complain about it when most kids don't even know how to use a credit card of all things? Furthermore, it's not like the parent will not blatantly know when their child is using their credit card for a F***ING GAME. They have bank accounts, and as such will usually monitor them as closely as possible.
obody complained about this shit for games like Masters and Duel but now are all up in arms about this despite us not even having info on how monetization will work.
What are you talking about? Can't say for Duel, but Masters got criticism for being too easy as well as being too stingy with the Premium Currency. The developers wrote an apology letter promising to fix the issues, and they did. Its not perfect, because a lot of the training events require the newly advertised sync pair to have chance at winning on the higher levels, as well as some scouting events having discounts that can only be done via premium gem. The worst part was that they said the monetization would be less aggressive due to the audience being children, but they still managed to mess that up.
 

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