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I'm probably misremembering, but I want to say it's only Latias that's referenced to have concealing/camouflaging abilities. That's probably rhe reason, even though Latios would be able to get better use out of it.
I'm actually fairly surprised Sucker Punch hasn't been a TM or TR in the newer games.
Sucker Punch is a very strong move conceptually, which caused it to be nerfed despite the conditional attached to its priority. I imagine they don't want to spread that too far.
Then again, Knock Off continues to be a menace and has had its learners increased...
Solosis and Duosion don't learn Psychic Noise, even though Reuniclus does and the whole line learned Heal Block.
Also Klefki can't learn it, in spite of learning Heal Block.
These three are the only non-legendarys in the game that can't learn it even though they could learn Heal Block. The Creation trio and Thundurus also don't learn Psychic Noise even though they had Heal Block, but that's probably a balance thing.
Just me throwing out ideas as to why these get it specefically:
A typically immobile rock or coral formation starts moving and attacks you
Actually not sure on this one, maybe it's a time-travel reference?
I'm probably misremembering, but I want to say it's only Latias that's referenced to have concealing/camouflaging abilities. That's probably rhe reason, even though Latios would be able to get better use out of it.
Sucker Punch is a very strong move conceptually, which caused it to be nerfed despite the conditional attached to its priority. I imagine they don't want to spread that too far.
Then again, Knock Off continues to be a menace and has had its learners increased...
Despite Terapagos's whole thing being that it has the stellar tera type and therefore has stab for every type when it terastalizes, Terapagos does not have any flying, ghost, or poison type attacks.
I ought to go through and double-check what all lost it, but I also know that multiple Pokémon gained the move in SV (offhand, Electivire and Metagross).
I really don't know what Game Freak is doing with the move; they seem to know its combination of utility and power makes it a better general physical Dark attack than anything else, but they have chosen to keep it returning as a TM/Tutor option and just prune what can learn it instead of reverting the (IMO) poor choice to vastly increase its power.
I think it was much more interesting as a weak utility move.
Despite Terapagos's whole thing being that it has the stellar tera type and therefore has stab for every type when it terastalizes, Terapagos does not have any flying, ghost, or poison type attacks.
I ought to go through and double-check what all lost it, but I also know that multiple Pokémon gained the move in SV (offhand, Electivire and Metagross).
I really don't know what Game Freak is doing with the move; they seem to know its combination of utility and power makes it a better general physical Dark attack than anything else, but they have chosen to keep it returning as a TM/Tutor option and just prune what can learn it instead of reverting the (IMO) poor choice to vastly increase its power.
I think it was much more interesting as a weak utility move.
I agree, and I think it's a consequence of the other Physical Dark moves being rather meh(80 BP max and learned by jack-all mons). Dark Pulse is easy to toss on everything that would want it, but in Gen VI, the only physical options were Crunch, Night Slash, and Sucker Punch, all of which were limited in some way. Now they've added Lash Out and Throat Chop, so it's not as necessary for Knock Off to be your STAB, but it's still helpful since all of those moves are still either limited or suck.
And, it would be fine, Dark is the one type I don't think needs reliable attacking options in the 90 BP range since there's so few resistances and it's supposed to be a trickster type, but since GF gives Special attackers Dark Pulse and signature moves to any physical Dark types like Incineroar or Kingambit they want to be good, the Pangoros of the world need an equivalent "just works and everything learns it" option to compete, and for a few generations, KO was that option.
Now they've added Lash Out and Throat Chop, so it's not as necessary for Knock Off to be your STAB, but it's still helpful since all of those moves are still either limited or suck.
A interesting thing is that while probably not relevant for Singles, when it comes to doubles/VGC Lash Out has actually started being the stab of choice on some mons like Chien Pao due to how common Intimidate is.
Most of the phisical Darks that are viable in doubles are dual typed, so having a attack that's almost identical to Crunch but gives you a fancy 150 BP stab when your generic Lando / H-Arca / Incin switches in is actually nice, expecially as most of the time they wouldn't be clicking the dark stab anyway.
I agree, and I think it's a consequence of the other Physical Dark moves being rather meh(80 BP max and learned by jack-all mons). Dark Pulse is easy to toss on everything that would want it, but in Gen VI, the only physical options were Crunch, Night Slash, and Sucker Punch, all of which were limited in some way. Now they've added Lash Out and Throat Chop, so it's not as necessary for Knock Off to be your STAB, but it's still helpful since all of those moves are still either limited or suck.
And, it would be fine, Dark is the one type I don't think needs reliable attacking options in the 90 BP range since there's so few resistances and it's supposed to be a trickster type, but since GF gives Special attackers Dark Pulse and signature moves to any physical Dark types like Incineroar or Kingambit they want to be good, the Pangoros of the world need an equivalent "just works and everything learns it" option to compete, and for a few generations, KO was that option.
Yeah, I'm not really upset that there aren't stronger Dark moves, just the common competitive perception (at least in Smogon singles) that if a physically offensive Dark type doesn't get at Knock Off or at least Crunch ( Throat Chop is the same BP, and Darkest Lariat was actually a TM in Gen 8 and it's 85 BP) that they're just kind of bad/don't have a "good enough" Dark STAB to be worth using. It's the Dark-type version of Close Combat, basically. I remember before we had detailed information about moves in Gen 5, Foul Play looked promising as a 95 BP physical Dark move, but of course, it works differently.
You bringing up Night Slash reminds me that I think that average high-crit moves (by average, I mean the Slash standard of "70 BP and no other effect") in modern Pokémon are just kinda bad. I made a post in Discord once comparing Crunch to Night Slash going from gens 2 onward (Night Slash didn't exist, but it's in a server for a romhack that has the move), and its average BP only beats out Crunch in Gen 2, where high-crit moves had a 25% chance to crit as opposed to the 12.5% chance they've had going forward.
in gen 2 mechanics, factoring critical hit ratios and a 2x multiplier on crits, crunch has a functional 85 BP (plus a 20% chance to lower [special] defense)
night slash would have a functional BP of 87.5 and a higher chance of ignoring the target's defense boosts (okay actually they didn't do this in gen 2 but they've done it since so I'm accounting for it)
in gen 3-5 mechanics, crunch has the same 85 BP and night slash would have a BP of 78.75
in gen 6, that's 82.5 for crunch and 74.375 for night slash
in gen 7+, it's 81.66 for crunch and 74.375 for night slash
I know it's easier to max crit rates now, but the actual power boost of a critical hit is less than it was, and if you're using an item to top off crit rates, that means you're forgoing an item that could up your damage normally (the widely-distributed high-crit moves are generally relatively weak, too). All of this is to say that I think that (at least some) high-crit moves should have kept the old 2x damage multiplier, and probably the Gen 2 1/4 crit rate, because they're just not very good options otherwise. A lot of these high-crit moves are now boosted by Sharpness, which is definitely something for me to consider as I wish for said moves to be fundamentally buffed, but I also think Sharpness's boost is too high.
Sorry about all this in this thread, this would be better posted in "Little Things that Annoy You," but I wanted to rant for a bit. As a closer, I also made this comparison of all current high-crit moves (comparing power/accuracy/secondary effect).
karate chop/poison tail: 50 BP
razor leaf/air cutter: 55 (air cutter is actually now 60 but shh)
frost breath/storm throw: 60 (always crit)
slash/shadow claw/night slash/psycho cut/cross poison/aqua cutter: 70
wicked blow/surging strikes: 75 BP (always crit, surging strikes hits thrice for 25 BP each)
razor wind (lol)/drill run: 80 BP
dire claw/esper wing: 80 bp, additional affect
snipe shot: 80 bp (always crits)
blaze kick: 85
leaf blade/attack order: 90
triple arrows: 90 BP, addtional affect
stone edge/cross chop: 100 BP, 80 acc
crabhammer: 100 BP, 90 acc
aeroblast/spacial [sic] rend: 100 BP 95 acc
sky attack: 140 BP
EDIT: realized I forgot Urshifu's signature moves in my crit-move comparison. I'm also missing a few accuracy specifications but I can't be bothered to add those
Considering there were other omissions in my original message I just made a mistake there. I probably forgot it had the ability to ignore redirection and assumed it was auto-crit or something.
Just now learning that ScarVi introduced a Metal Claw TM which Charmander can learn, but Charmeleon and Charizard can't use -- and similarly, ScarVi's False Swipe TM can't be used on Charizard despite it working fine in SwSh and Charmander and Charmeleon still being able to use it. Are there any other situations like this in ScarVi where a Pokémon can use a TM its evolutions can't? I don't think there's been a situation like this in a very long time
Just now learning that ScarVi introduced a Metal Claw TM which Charmander can learn, but Charmeleon and Charizard can't use -- and similarly, ScarVi's False Swipe TM can't be used on Charizard despite it working fine in SwSh and Charmander and Charmeleon still being able to use it. Are there any other situations like this in ScarVi where a Pokémon can use a TM its evolutions can't? I don't think there's been a situation like this in a very long time
Maybe because it's a Breeding move on Charmander it's listed in an internal moveset that TMs reference, and Charmeleon doesn't get that same list? It just feels like it has to be automated for something like that to happen, especially since "Charmander gets Metal Claw" got more attention than most moveset changes.
Huh, looking into it...I knew Metal Claw Charmander was a blatant anti-Brock measure*, but I didn't realize they removed the move from the Charmander line's levelup moveset completely as soon as Gen IV rolled around. And...why? It doesn't change the line's viability, it doesn't mess with the Starter Type Triangle, all it does is give you an early answer to Rock types in situations without TMs. I mean, I'm personally fine if a starter has a bad matchup against an early gym, but it seems like something they'd change back if they ever do another normal RBY remake, so why remove the move in the first place, especially if it's left as a breeding option.
Maybe because it's a Breeding move on Charmander it's listed in an internal moveset that TMs reference, and Charmeleon doesn't get that same list? It just feels like it has to be automated for something like that to happen, especially since "Charmander gets Metal Claw" got more attention than most moveset changes.
Huh, looking into it...I knew Metal Claw Charmander was a blatant anti-Brock measure*, but I didn't realize they removed the move from the Charmander line's levelup moveset completely as soon as Gen IV rolled around. And...why? It doesn't change the line's viability, it doesn't mess with the Starter Type Triangle, all it does is give you an early answer to Rock types in situations without TMs. I mean, I'm personally fine if a starter has a bad matchup against an early gym, but it seems like something they'd change back if they ever do another normal RBY remake, so why remove the move in the first place, especially if it's left as a breeding option.
While I don't know every single move addition in FRLG, I do know at least the following kept their level-up additions:
Kingler kept Metal Claw
Shellder kept Icicle Spear (granted, it kind of needed to...)
Dewgong kept Signal Beam
Scizor kept Iron Defense
While I don't know every single move addition in FRLG, I do know at least the following kept their level-up additions:
Kingler kept Metal Claw
Shellder kept Icicle Spear (granted, it kind of needed to...)
Dewgong kept Signal Beam
Scizor kept Iron Defense
There's a bunch more examples because practically all the FRLG move additions were retained going forward.
Forretress kept Zap Cannon
Stantler kept Role Play
Togepi kept Ancientpower
Cleffa, Kirlia, and Mr Mime kept Magical Leaf
Dunsparce kept Flail
Qwilfish and Cacnea kept Destiny Bond
Corphish kept Crunch
Nidoqueen kept Superpower
Nidoking and Goldeen kept Megahorn
Mankey, Drowzee, and Tauros kept Swagger
Slowpoke kept Psych Up
Gastly kept Nightmare
Onix kept Dragonbreath
Snorlax kept Sleep Talk
Some notable examples that actually were lost: Diglett and Dugtrio lost Fury Swipes until LGPE, Meditite and Meowth both lost Swagger (not much of a loss though since both could still be taught it), Kabutops lost Fury Cutter (though could still get it while it was a tutor move), Ponyta lost Quick Attack (though Rapidash kept it as a level 1 move), and as mentioned Charmander lost Metal Claw. Charmander, of course, also lost Rage post-RSE.
Just now learning that ScarVi introduced a Metal Claw TM which Charmander can learn, but Charmeleon and Charizard can't use -- and similarly, ScarVi's False Swipe TM can't be used on Charizard despite it working fine in SwSh and Charmander and Charmeleon still being able to use it. Are there any other situations like this in ScarVi where a Pokémon can use a TM its evolutions can't? I don't think there's been a situation like this in a very long time
Recently found out that Poliwag line gets Earth Power. By level-up. Also Croagunk? Which is weird because just about every other Pokémon that gets it via level-up is Ground, Ground-adjacent (e.g. a couple Rock-types), or a Legendary.
The move seems to have connotations with dirt and soil since it can be taught to a few Grass-types, so I can only fathom it's because there are certain kinds of frogs and toads that live in deserts. But the Poliwag and Croagunk lines are consistently portrayed as more aquatic-leaning frogs and from swamp-like areas. Croagunk and Toxicroak even have Dry Skin as an ability which basically says "we cannot deal with desert." I dunno what the connotation would be to lead to Earth Power outside of mud, but that's what Muddy Water is for.
Recently found out that Poliwag line gets Earth Power. By level-up. Also Croagunk? Which is weird because just about every other Pokémon that gets it via level-up is Ground, Ground-adjacent (e.g. a couple Rock-types), or a Legendary.
The move seems to have connotations with dirt and soil since it can be taught to a few Grass-types, so I can only fathom it's because there are certain kinds of frogs and toads that live in deserts. But the Poliwag and Croagunk lines are consistently portrayed as more aquatic-leaning frogs and from swamp-like areas. Croagunk and Toxicroak even have Dry Skin as an ability which basically says "we cannot deal with desert." I dunno what the connotation would be to lead to Earth Power outside of mud, but that's what Muddy Water is for.
I think it is meant to be another "mud" adjacent move for them considering the swamp connection. I presume they wanted a better ground option than just Mud Bomb to fit the theme.
The weirder thing is probably that Tympole (the frog that's actually part ground type) only gets it by egg move/TM and Mudkip/Wooper exclusively through TM.
If you want it as a mud stand in surely the extremely natively mud dweeling dudes would get it by level up. Especially when they are ground type!
I think it is meant to be another "mud" adjacent move for them considering the swamp connection. I presume they wanted a better ground option than just Mud Bomb to fit the theme.
I think it is meant to be another "mud" adjacent move for them considering the swamp connection. I presume they wanted a better ground option than just Mud Bomb to fit the theme.
The weirder thing is probably that Tympole (the frog that's actually part ground type) only gets it by egg move/TM and Mudkip/Wooper exclusively through TM.
If you want it as a mud stand in surely the extremely natively mud dweeling dudes would get it by level up. Especially when they are ground type!
What they wanted was a REPLACEMENT for Mud Bomb (it stopped existing in SwSh) and the only other Special Ground moves besides Mud Bomb are Mud Shot (which the Poliwag line already learns at an earlier level), Mud Slap (weaker), Scorching Sands (not in base SwSh, tutor/TM only), Sandsear Storm (not in SwSh, legendary signature), and Earth Power.
There was literally no other option in SwSh.
There have only ever been 6 Special Ground moves period.
That thing feels like another "oops, we cut a good mid-level move from a type that was lacking in options already" case (see: signal beam)
I guess they overcompensated for it a little bit? Going from 65 BP to 90 is a pretty big jump.
Actually, I think the damage similarity between Mud Shot and Mud Bomb is probably partially why Mud Bomb got cut. They're not very distinct moves if you're just going off of damage/type/category/accuracy. Mud Shot's guaranteed Speed drop is pretty nice compared to Bomb's chance of lowering Accuracy.
That thing feels like another "oops, we cut a good mid-level move from a type that was lacking in options already" case (see: signal beam)
I guess they overcompensated for it a little bit? Going from 65 BP to 90 is a pretty big jump.
Actually, I think the damage similarity between Mud Shot and Mud Bomb is probably partially why Mud Bomb got cut. They're not very distinct moves if you're just going off of damage/type/category/accuracy. Mud Shot's guaranteed Speed drop is pretty nice compared to Bomb's chance of lowering Accuracy.
I think the similarity between the moves is why they got cut like you say but I'm not going to lie, Mud Bomb is not something I would ever consider a "good" mid-level move
65 BP with 85% accuracy is just really bad, and while the 30% Accuracy drop is likely why it has that accuracy, man I just never thought it was worth it.
I think the similarity between the moves is why they got cut like you say but I'm not going to lie, Mud Bomb is not something I would ever consider a "good" mid-level move
65 BP with 85% accuracy is just really bad, and while the 30% Accuracy drop is likely why it has that accuracy, man I just never thought it was worth it.
I think I was using "good" as more of a filler word there/lumping it in with other 65-75 BP moves that got cut that actually are useful. I wasn't sure of its exact accuracy, didn't realize it was only 85%.
Something I had in the back of my mind while writing that post was that increasing Mud Bomb's power to 75 would make it... more useful? If nothing else, more distinct from Mud Shot and actually give people a reason to upgrade, despite the relatively low accuracy.
