OU/BL status discepancy

[DFang]

I'm trying to figure out an inconsistency in the tiering of a certain pokemon. Infernape has proven to be very popular this gen with his variability, stats and typing. He is seen as unquestionably OU and yet his 3rd gen counterpart, Sceptile, has been placed in BL (Originally UU) for an unknown reason. My question is do you think that popularity of a NEW pokemon moves it higher in tiers just because it is a new character and doesn't actually do anything new.

I used Sceptile as Infernape's counterpart because they are both speedy sweepers that can be physical or special very effectively and Sceptile is arguably more capable yet is in BL at best.

Sceptile is faster and has a far broader move pool:

Physical:
Leaf Blade
Earthquake
Stone Edge
Thunderpunch
Dragon Claw
Focus Punch Brick Break
Crunch
Night Slash
X-Scissor
Aerial Ace
Crush Claw

Special:
Energy Ball
Leafstorm
Dragon Pulse
Focus Blast

Support:
Leech Seed
Substitute
Swords Dance
Captivate

Weakness:
2x: Fire, Flying, Bug, Poison, Ice
The most relevant of these is ice and next likely being fire, but the other attack types are not typically common.

Infernape Weaknesses:
Water, Ground, Psychic, Flying
Water and Ground are the common attack types here and everyone and his mother carries EQ these days.

Which one do people see as more of an OU threat? Is the difference solely based on typing?

 

[Zenigame]

Typing is much better with Infernape. Flying is common enough to be careful. Bug is Heracross. Sceptile got a little shunned because of the physical/special split, but he's useable. BL isn't a bad thing.

 

[DFang]

How does base speed of 120 and base SpA of 105 suck?

It outspeeds Gengar, Garchomp, Infernape and Starmie and is as fast as Alakazam.

NOT 'nuff said, apparently...

 

[Lee]

Whether a Pokemon is OU or BL is not decided by their power - it is decided by how often they are used. If everybody stopped using Infernape, then he would become BL. Similarly, if everybody started using Sceptile, he would shoot up to OU status.

 

[Dragontamer]

/\ Lee hit the nail on the head.

BL / OU pokemon for the most part are about the same power. Some are more powerful than others, yes, but that is not what determines bl vs ou status.

Popularity is the only issue that determines if a pokemon is OU or BL.

 

[X-Act]

If you want Sceptile in OU, start by using it. :) If it's really as good as you say it is, then other people will use it as well, and it will become OU pretty soon.

 

[astrohawke]

Here's the reason why sceptile is BL:

as a special sweeper where its stats actually lie, its movepool is rather terrible both for versatility and coverage as you can see.

as a physical sweeper, its attack stat is mediocre despite having great moves and there are better physical sweepers out there that are being used. Namely weavile but there are others that are just not quite as fast. Stab grass is also rather average.

now as a mixed sweeper, where it's actually being compared to infernape, there is one important difference and that is wall breaking. Notice there aren't that many mixed sweepers because it's usually inefficient to split the EVs to try and accommodate adequate attack on both sides as well as maxing speed (which is a necessity for infernape and sceptile). The ones that are mixed however, have one purpose and that is to kill blissey and a lot of physical walls.

Sceptile can't kill blissey which unfortunately is 'nuff said for mixed sweeping.

 

[Loetke]

Offensive typing really makes a big difference in this, too. Scpetile can't hit Skarm or Blissey SE for any reasonable damage while Infernape can OHKO both of them.

@zxn666: Wonderful contribution to the discussion. Thanks for joining Smogon.

 

[SHUCKLE MAN]

Sceptile is very almost OU now, so who knows?

Infernape, however, is VERY OU. If Sceptile gets put in OU, he'll only just get in there.

Anyways, I think Sceptile is only higher UU in terms of usage now BECAUSE of Infernape.

 

[Jonathan]

That's Blaziken.

 

[Suburvia]

Most of the reasons why Infernape is used over Sceptile have been said already. Better typing for attacking, better moves, better attacking stats, and though Sceptile is faster, Infernape has all the speed he needs. Sceptile can't take down any of the common walls very easily, except for maybe the Steel ones with HP Fire, at which point they just switch to Blissey and laugh in your face. Try laughing in Infernape's face with Blissey.

Seriously, there are better Poke's at attacking than Sceptile, whether it be physical, special, or mixed. Physical, Garchomp, Gyarados, Weavile. . . Just about every common physical sweeper out there. Special, Roserade would be the main one. It hits SO much harder than Sceptile and has a couple useful resistances thanks to the poison typing as well as 115 base Sp. Def., so it can afford to switch in. Mixed, Infernape, for all the reasons in this thread so far.

The ONLY real reason to use Sceptile is for SubSeeding or some random support role. . . It's much better suited to those than sweeping.

 

[DFang]

Well, I guess it's kind of a moot point for now.

The thread showing the December Shoddy numbers puts Sceptile on OU just barely!

He's there along with a few other surprises...

 

[Bologo]

Infernape even has a better supporting movepool than Sceptile. C'mon, let's look at his supporting movepool:

Calm Mind
Nasty Plot
Encore
Slack Off
Swords Dance
Taunt
Bulk Up
Will-O-Wisp
Stealth Rock
U-Turn (support and damage)
Counter

See, now that's a nice supporting movepool, and Infernape actually CAN pull off a defensive spread with that incredibly quick Slack Off.

It completely equal in terms of stat-uppers. What I mean is that there's both Calm Mind & Bulk Up, and then Swords Dance & Nasty Plot, which in each pair are counterparts of each other.

Infernape is also the 3rd fastest Encorer in the game, right behind Alakazam and Jumpluff. Although, the other two really can't take hits very well, thanks to 4x weakness and tracing paper defenses. But Infernape can survive a lot more hits can one would think, with the right EVs. Encore works incredibly with Taunt since you can Taunt the opponent while they try to set up stuff, and then Encore them so they're forced to Struggle (evil as heck).

Infernape can scout with U-Turn as well, and plus, if it catches something good on the switch, it can Will-O-Wisp to screw the damage up. Plus, it can do the annoying Countersash thing that everyone hates.


All Sceptile can really do in terms of support is Leech Seed, and Screech. I suppose that Grasswhistle is an okay option on the guy, but it's extremely unreliable.

 

[muramasa]

Sceptile does fine in OU as either a subseeder or specs user. Infernape completely outclasses Sceptile as a sweeper though because Sceptile just can't get past physical walls due to its low attack power.

I use a Specstile on a lot of my OU teams and it works wonders.

 

[Suburvia]

Hmm. . . Bologo, your post has inspired me.

Kristy set for Infernape! =D

Seriously, I think it could work. Infernape has all the tools but Baton Pass, so it would have to be a sweeper rather than a BPer. . . Basically, defensive-ish spread, Bulk Up, Slack Off, Flare Blitz, Brick Break? (CC reduces defense). Bulk Up against some Ice Punches, Slack off the damage, sweep. You can even recover the Flare Blitz recoil! You could CM, as well, which might work better seeing as Infernape is weak to Earthquake and Brave Bird/Drill Peck. . . But at the same time, weak to Surf. . . Hmm. . .

Anyways, I'm nowhere near good enough with EVs and general metagame know-how to build a set like that, but I think it could be done.

Of course, it's much more practical to just use a Swords Dance set, but just imagine the look on someone's face when your Infernape starts Bulk-Upping ^___^

 

[Hobo Joe]

I use Sceptile on all of my teams. He is the fastst Grass type and the fastest SubSeeder in the game, but his Special Movepool is shallow, requiring you to breed a good Hidden Power if your using Wi-Fi. He has a large physical movepool, but the power that comes from it has to be from a Swords Dance.

The guy might have good speed, but there are also large threats in OU that can outspeed him and OHKO him, namely Weavile and Ninjask. Even though he has some good resistances (Water and Ground) he can't switch in as much as he likes with 65 Base Defence.

 

[KO_King]

Leaf Blade becoming physical is something Sceptile will always hate, since it was his most reliable source of damage. Now SubSeeding is probably the only set that can be kind of effective on him.

Even though Sceppy is faster, Infernape's STABs and movepool will always make him win in the end.

 

[Madcat]

Whether a Pokemon is OU or BL is not decided by their power - it is decided by how often they are used. If everybody stopped using Infernape, then he would become BL. Similarly, if everybody started using Sceptile, he would shoot up to OU status.

That's why Tauros, a pokemon that used to be a staple in OU teams, has been bumped to BL, because everyone just plain forgot about him when they were making their 4th gen teams (not to mention he is now totally walled by Bronzong).

 

[Derek(PUK)]

choice specs sceptile is an amazing special attacker but infernape can do things a bit better with 4 120 base power STAB moves(2 special, 2 phys.) nasty plot and swords dance along with grass knot, thunderpunch and Stone edge for coverage. Sceptile just cant do what infernape does.

 

[Derek(PUK)]

Leaf Blade becoming physical is something Sceptile will always hate, since it was his most reliable source of damage. .

um.. in ADV leaf blade had 70 base power, energy ball has 80 now thats an increase and grass knot can go up to 120 base power! i don't htink it's movepool got a downgrade.

 

[Chou Toshio]

Check out my warstory (most recent in the archives) for a great example of SpecsTile v. Infernape. My team was incredibly nape' weak, and his was incredibly Sceptile weak. In the end, my team won when it came down to Sceptile v. Infernape with Scep's superior speed. :D

 

[SimChao]

Why do you want Sceptile to be OU? If my favorite Pokemon was BL, I'd be ecstatic, because that means that it's strong enough to compete with OU Pokemon, but isn't whored and totally unoriginal.

 

[blastoiselover100]

Four things usually determine a Pokemon's tier:
Base Stats
Typing
Ability
Move-pool

Infernape is better than all of the above than Sceptile. Therefore it has a better tier.

 

[Colonel M]

Er, I thought Leaf Blade's jump in Attack Power AND going physical was the best thing? Since Sceptile can Swords Dance (but who can't anymore!?!) and raise his attack a bit, Leaf Blade will do a lot.

Like many have said before though, Sceptile has trouble getting arond either Skarmory physical-wise or Blissey special-wise.

 

[Stathakis]

Four things usually determine a Pokemon's tier:
Base Stats
Typing
Ability
Move-pool

Infernape is better than all of the above than Sceptile. Therefore it has a better tier.

you forget one thing, usage. bl pokemon have ou-worthy stats, movepools, abilities, and typing, but they are used less. so basically, they are the unpopular ou's.