Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V2 - Check Post #2500 PG. 100

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AM already mentioned why Victini shouldn't move up to A-. I'll say why I think that Staraptor doesn't deserve to move up. First of all, it's speed tier got worse. Base 100 used to be decent, but now the norm is base 110. ORAS also introduced a new offensive check, mega metagross which resists both STABs and can beat it pretty easily. Mega Sableye can also check it, and it is pretty common on stall. Staraptor is also extremely frail and this is only compounded by it's rather mediocre defensive typing and weakness to SR. Staraptor's use of recoil moves is also pretty detrimental, severely cutting down on its longevity.

Reserved for Pokemon that are mediocre in the OU metagame, but have just as many notable flaws that prevent them from being effective. Pokemon in the C tier often require significant support to be effective. Pokemon from this rank tend to face a lot of competition with the more commonly used Pokemon. These Pokemon exert a below average presence in the metagame.

This seems to fit staraptor pretty well. It has many notable flaws (fraility, use of recoil moves, countered by a super common pokemon), and it does require some team support to be effective. Also lol CB sets are definitely counterable, pokemon such as doublade, skarmory, rhyperior, bronzong, magnezone, can easily switch in on staraptor's attacks and force it out.
 

MegaStarUniverse

Banned deucer.
AM already mentioned why Victini shouldn't move up to A-. I'll say why I think that Staraptor doesn't deserve to move up. First of all, it's speed tier got worse. Base 100 used to be decent, but now the norm is base 110. ORAS also introduced a new offensive check, mega metagross which resists both STABs and can beat it pretty easily. Mega Sableye can also check it, and it is pretty common on stall. Staraptor is also extremely frail and this is only compounded by it's rather mediocre defensive typing and weakness to SR. Staraptor's use of recoil moves is also pretty detrimental, severely cutting down on its longevity.

Reserved for Pokemon that are mediocre in the OU metagame, but have just as many notable flaws that prevent them from being effective. Pokemon in the C tier often require significant support to be effective. Pokemon from this rank tend to face a lot of competition with the more commonly used Pokemon. These Pokemon exert a below average presence in the metagame.

This seems to fit staraptor pretty well. It has many notable flaws (fraility, use of recoil moves, countered by a super common pokemon), and it does require some team support to be effective. Also lol CB sets are definitely counterable, pokemon such as doublade, skarmory, rhyperior, bronzong, magnezone, can easily switch in on staraptor's attacks and force it out.
I realize what you are saying. Staraptor should stay in C+ now that you reminded me that its worse in this meta. Im gonna have to read AM's Post on Victini. I never saw it. Thank you for your reply.
 

MrAldo

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Eh, none of those you mentioned besides doublade (which is a pretty bad mon in the OU meta right now) and bronzong can safely switch into banded staraptor coverage (you should be running adamant on it cause you want power if you are gonna bother using it).

Not saying that staraptor should rise, it has major flaws, like having average bulk with moves that simply put a timer on it (by recoil or lowering defenses), dying too quickly so many people would prefer running some more durable wallbreakers and an awkward speed tier and being pretty team specific but in the end none of those mons cant really safely switch.

Staraptor should stay where it is. C+ is perfectly fine for it.
 
I don't really have a say on where Mandi goes but there are a few things in that paragraph that really bothered me.

This isn't even close to being true. Mandibuzz has a nice Dark resist that allows it to switch into Knock Off a lot easier, it has Foul Play, which Skarmory doesn't have, a much better HP stat, and it actually has a Special Defense stat, unlike Skarmory's mediocre one.

Lol Bone Rush
0 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Excadrill: 262-310 (72.5 - 85.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Mega Metagross: 264-312 (87.7 - 103.6%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

0 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 83-98 (30.5 - 36%) -- 46.4% chance to 3HKO
Bisharp can't beat it 1vs1 anyways.


Gengar very rarely carries T-Bolt, it really has better things to do with its moves. Not to mention...

0 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 198-234 (76.4 - 90.3%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 108 SpD Mandibuzz: 239-283 (56.5 - 66.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


Again, no real opinion on where Mandibuzz goes, but I think it has certain niches that nothing else really does, and C is defiantly underselling it way too much.
I think it's more a matter of trends or metagame shifts. Mandy, Zapdos and Rhyperior are all three very good defensive walls (I use Rhyperior a lot) but right now using them its like using a coat in summer or flipflops in winter. Rhyperior is pretty good overall but the reason why it was ranked so high before its because of bird spamming and id love it to move up but i dont think i can articulate enough my thoughts to make it happen.

Also i support Alakazam to go higher. Ive used it for a long time (even when some people wanted it to drop to D/unranked like Espeon) and its always usefull. In any match it guarantees either a kill, T waving a DDancer or setup mons or locking fat mons on support moves.
 
I'd like to nominated Volcarona from A- to A rank
Its Newest and most used set
Volcarona (M) @ Passho Berry/ lum berry/life orb
Ability: Flame Body
EVs: 92 HP / 252 SpA / 164 Spe
Timid Nature
- Quiver Dance
- Fire Blast
- Giga Drain/ Bug Buzz
- Hidden Power [Ground]


Has GREAT coverage and power/and has sweeping potential. The ONLY negative ive seen people bring up with Volcarona is its 50 percent weakness to sr BUT in this metagame hazard removal is at a preimun and starmie does it so well. Volcarona is a mon that deserve much more respect and its about time it gets some, on the right team it can be a killer (replays to come)
Also ik this is a COMPLETELY different thing but ho-oh is s minus in ubers with the same sr weakness (not comparing ubers to ou or rona to ho-oh but i thought it was noteworthy)
 
Good coverage (ie the ability to tear apart common cores) and sweeping potential are the reasons why Volcarona is A- in the first place. Volcarona has a nasty 4x SR weakness and even though there are mons such as Starmie and Diancie that can keep hazards away most of the time, it still requires lots of team support and removing hazards can often give away a free turn to the opponent to do whatever he wants.

Volcarona also has trouble dealing with pokemon such as talonflame, zard y, and chansey, while it also doesn't really compare to other pokemon in A such as garchomp which is very versatile and can do many things, or the utility that pokemon such as hippowdon and ferrothorn offer. Volcarona is definitely one of the better A- mons but I don't think good coverage and sweeping potential are enough to push it into A.
 

bruno

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I'd like to nominated Volcarona from A- to A rank
Its Newest and most used set
Volcarona (M) @ Passho Berry/ lum berry/life orb
Ability: Flame Body
EVs: 92 HP / 252 SpA / 164 Spe
Timid Nature
- Quiver Dance
- Fire Blast
- Giga Drain/ Bug Buzz
- Hidden Power [Ground]


Has GREAT coverage and power/and has sweeping potential. The ONLY negative ive seen people bring up with Volcarona is its 50 percent weakness to sr BUT in this metagame hazard removal is at a preimun and starmie does it so well. Volcarona is a mon that deserve much more respect and its about time it gets some, on the right team it can be a killer (replays to come)
Also ik this is a COMPLETELY different thing but ho-oh is s minus in ubers with the same sr weakness (not comparing ubers to ou or rona to ho-oh but i thought it was noteworthy)
u cant just post a set and tell us the reason it deserves to raise is because "it has sweep potential", breh. While it is true that volc is a great poke you gotta check out the metagame it is on. Hell, you can even check the viability rankings itself to find yourself an answer. Mega Altaria, Azumarill, Heatran, Talonflame, Charizard, Tornadus-T, Mega Aerodactyl and so many other mons are seen in the current metagame and able to deal with it just fine.

Also, i do not agree with a raise on Lucario going up at all, it suffers with choosing the right moves for too many things in the current metagame(for example, crunch, ice punch, bullet punch, etc) and is just outclassed in general(i guess it isn't when it comes to the fact that it checks bisharp? still not worth it imo).
 
u cant just post a set and tell us the reason it deserves to raise is because "it has sweep potential", breh. While it is true that volc is a great poke you gotta check out the metagame it is on. Hell, you can even check the viability rankings itself to find yourself an answer. Mega Altaria, Azumarill, Heatran, Talonflame, Charizard, Tornadus-T, Mega Aerodactyl and so many other mons are seen in the current metagame and able to deal with it just fine.
Most ronas carry hp ground and giga drain
the only mons that u said who can really handle rona are mega, alt talon, (duh) and zard lol mega aerodactyl is a stretch since no one runs it....
also the passho berry set is becoming more common and is prob the best/most used one
 
Most ronas carry hp ground and giga drain
the only mons that u said who can really handle rona are mega, alt talon, (duh) and zard lol mega aerodactyl is a stretch since no one runs it....
also the passho berry set is becoming more common and is prob the best/most used one
You're kind of missing the point. KratosMana is saying that you can't post a single set and then say it has sweep potential, that can be pretty much said for any decent set up sweeper.
 
You're kind of missing the point. KratosMana is saying that you can't post a single set and then say it has sweep potential, that can be pretty much said for any decent set up sweeper.
I saw the point, I just posted the set that is the most viable in the current metagame (sub cm keldeo)
Many mons have gotten rises over sets that have been overpowering, anyway it was just a example
 
Lucario isn't even that good as a Bisharp check tbh
252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 55-65 (20.2 - 23.8%)
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Lucario: 242-285 (86.1 - 101.4%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

You are forced to a coinflip, and the best result being both Lucario and Bisharp dying.
Btw, Ho-oh is different from Volcarona, while being x4 weak to Stealth Rocks like Volc. it got immediate power with Brave Bird, the 50% burn chance Sacred Fire and (more) importantly Regenerator, while Volcarona struggles with a pitiful HP and PDef stat, weak to common priority such as Talonflame's Brave Bird and Azumarill's Aqua Jet.
 

bruno

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Mega Aero is actually really common at the moment and ranked up to A- showing it is a great and viable mon. And no it is not. Lum Berry is better in pretty much 90% of the scenarios you can find yourself on. Hell, i can only see one situation in where you'd want passho berry: if you for some reason expect your opponent to run an assault vest azumarill i guess. Passho is irrelevant in most cases, as for example Volcarona tanks Keldeo's Hydro Pump if it's scarf after quiver dance and giga's it(same thing with rotom-w, and if keldeo isn't scarf it just dies to giga). There's little to no point on running passho atm, really. Also, hidden power ground is really a rare move that shouldn't be used most of time(unless your team really really can't handle heatran), seeing as bug buzz is just way too important to be removed(for example, you get walled by the common lati@s if you don't run buzz). But in any case, those were just examples bruh, but if you want me to point out a list of viable, common Pokémon u currently see in the metagame i can do it for you. In any case yes i agree volc is a great mon, but there's no point ranking it up as of now.
 
Lucario isn't even that good as a Bisharp check tbh
252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 55-65 (20.2 - 23.8%)
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Lucario: 242-285 (86.1 - 101.4%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

You are forced to a coinflip, and the best result being both Lucario and Bisharp dying.
Btw, Ho-oh is different from Volcarona, while being x4 weak to Stealth Rocks like Volc. it got immediate power with Brave Bird, the 50% burn chance Sacred Fire and (more) importantly Regenerator, while Volcarona struggles with a pitiful HP and PDef stat, weak to common priority such as Talonflame's Brave Bird and Azumarill's Aqua Jet.
Well of course they're different one is in ubers IMO and they play different roles I was just using that as a example on how a 4k rock weakness can be overcome
Mega Aero is actually really common at the moment, and no it is not. Lum Berry is better in pretty much 90% of the scenarios you can find yourself on. Hell, i can only see one situation in where you'd want passho berry: if you for some reason expect your opponent to run an assault vest azumarill i guess. Passho is irrelevant in most cases, as Volcarona tanks Keldeo's Hydro Pump if it's scarf after quiver dance and giga's it(same thing with rotom-w, and if keldeo isn't scarf it just dies to giga). There's little to no point on running passho atm, really. Also, hidden power ground is really a rare move that shouldn't be used most of time(unless your team really really can't handle heatran), seeing as bug buzz is just way too important to be removed(for exmaple, you get walled by the common lati@s if you don't run buzz, and you get walled. But in any case, those were just examples bruh, but if you want me to point out a list of viable, common Pokémon u currently see in the metagame i can do it for you. In any case yes i agree volc is a great mon, but there's no point ranking it up as of now
While usage really aint used in tiering but mega Aero is barely used tbh (especially in high ladder)
anyway Hp ground is actually used on most Volcaronas because Volcarona is used a sweeper and thats its goal... to sweep Passho berry atm is like av zum right before it got popular, its getting extremely popular but not their yet its useful for setting up on keldeos and other water types
 
Also ik this is a COMPLETELY different thing but ho-oh is s minus in ubers with the same sr weakness (not comparing ubers to ou or rona to ho-oh but i thought it was noteworthy)
Yeah, they are different; but Ho-oh does not mind as much as Volcarona Stealth Rocks, due to Regenerator.
 
Yeah, they are different; but Ho-oh does not mind as much as Volcarona Stealth Rocks, due to Regenerator.
this is true cant dispute that

Mega Aero is actually really common at the moment and ranked up to A- showing it is a great and viable mon. And no it is not. Lum Berry is better in pretty much 90% of the scenarios you can find yourself on. Hell, i can only see one situation in where you'd want passho berry: if you for some reason expect your opponent to run an assault vest azumarill i guess. Passho is irrelevant in most cases, as for example Volcarona tanks Keldeo's Hydro Pump if it's scarf after quiver dance and giga's it(same thing with rotom-w, and if keldeo isn't scarf it just dies to giga). There's little to no point on running passho atm, really. Also, hidden power ground is really a rare move that shouldn't be used most of time(unless your team really really can't handle heatran), seeing as bug buzz is just way too important to be removed(for example, you get walled by the common lati@s if you don't run buzz). But in any case, those were just examples bruh, but if you want me to point out a list of viable, common Pokémon u currently see in the metagame i can do it for you. In any case yes i agree volc is a great mon, but there's no point ranking it up as of now.
http://www.smogon.com/stats/2015-03/ou-1825.txt
also to your point under one percent of people are using Mega aero so no its not relevant...
 
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bruno

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Bruh you're not supposed to be bringing in a volcarona directly into a keldeo in the first place. You don't need to use hp ground on volc "because it's a sweeper and that it's goal", you have other ways to beat heatran such as bluffs from your own team(like earthquake lati) instead of wasting a precious slot on your set. If you really think the Pokémon deserves a raise you need better points on it instead of just saying "it is a good sweeper" like you seemed to do in your original post. And ya like invoker said, it has been seen a lot on tournaments(where you'll most likely find better players than in the "high ladder"). Also, there is an edit button so no need to double post m8 .o.
I won't bother anyone anymore with this so this is my last post regarding the situation, if you wanna chat more about it feel free to pm me ^.^
 
Bruh you're not supposed to be bringing in a volcarona directly into a keldeo in the first place. You don't need to use hp ground on volc "because it's a sweeper and that it's goal", you have other ways to beat heatran such as bluffs from your own team(like earthquake lati) instead of wasting a precious slot on your set. If you really think the Pokémon deserves a raise you need better points on it instead of just saying "it is a good sweeper" like you seemed to do in your original post. And ya like invoker said, it has been seen a lot on tournaments(where you'll most likely find better players than in the "high ladder"). Also, there is an edit button so no need to double post m8 .o.
I won't bother anyone anymore with this so this is my last post regarding the situation, if you wanna chat more about it feel free to pm me ^.^
btw in last weeks smogtour...
its usage was a AMAZING .75 percent
even LOWER than the high ladder, anyway we're getting off topic but make sure you have your facts straight before u comment
But IMO mega Aero is not relevant
 
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btw in last weeks smogtour...
its usage was a AMAZING .75 percent
even LOWER than the high ladder, anyway we're getting off topic but make sure you have your facts straight before u comment
But IMO mega Aero is not relevant
If M-Aero weren't relevant at all, then it wouldn't be a B on the viability rankings, let alone the A- that it currently holds. Mega Aero is an absolute monster against Hyper Offense teams, and even some Bulky Offense. The reason usage isn't high right now is because usage of HO teams isn't high. However, the thing of it is, if you're using Volcarona, it'll usually be on HO and BO teams. Now, if you're not preparing for something that WILL tear your team apart if not prepared for, even if it's not used as much at this point in time, then you're going to get hammered if you actually do run into one. It's true that you can't prepare for everything, but honestly, M-Aero is SO good against HO teams that you really ought to be prepaared for it, especially since it shares a number of weaknesses with a few more commonly used threats in OU.
 
If M-Aero weren't relevant at all, then it wouldn't be a B on the viability rankings, let alone the A- that it currently holds. Mega Aero is an absolute monster against Hyper Offense teams, and even some Bulky Offense. The reason usage isn't high right now is because usage of HO teams isn't high. However, the thing of it is, if you're using Volcarona, it'll usually be on HO and BO teams. Now, if you're not preparing for something that WILL tear your team apart if not prepared for, even if it's not used as much at this point in time, then you're going to get hammered if you actually do run into one. It's true that you can't prepare for everything, but honestly, M-Aero is SO good against HO teams that you really ought to be prepaared for it, especially since it shares a number of weaknesses with a few more commonly used threats in OU.
why prepare for something that less than one percent of people use thou..
doesnt matter how good is it until people use it it aint relevant
 

Da Pizza Man

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why prepare for something that less than one percent of people use thou..
doesnt matter how good is it until people use it it aint relevant
I can't believe nobody has mentioned this yet but please remember this:
  • Usage statistics may be used to support an argument or a claim, but don't base your ENTIRE argument around them. For example, you can't just say "Pokemon X shouldn't be this tier because they aren't used that often!
Also, lets keep in mind that usage =/= viabillity, I can't think of many good examples for OU (Well other than this) but in RU pokemon like Ambipom who are absolute shit get way more usage than stuff like Gurdurr which is actually viable
 
why prepare for something that less than one percent of people use thou..
doesnt matter how good is it until people use it it aint relevant
Why does this even matter? Volcarona is really good as shown in its current rank of A-. However it needs far too much support from spinners and lures to be considered A rank. It also really only runs one set so it's fairly predictable. While it does often run a bulky set as well, counters for the two sets are nearly identical so it really doesn't matter that much (tran loses to the bulk set without roar or ancient power anyway). The usage of Aerodactyl, while relevant, isn't the reason why Volcarona is only A-. It's just a small point brought up to further discredit volc. Things like Talonflame usage, rcoks, physical fraility, weak coverage (yes even though it's solid coverage, it's coverage moves are ridiculously weak), and
+1 252+ SpA Volcarona Bug Buzz vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 240-284 (59.5 - 70.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery all take away from the viability of volcarona.
 

Jukain

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KratosMana I agree with your positions on diff rankings and such, but I do think that HP Ground and Passho Berry are decent options on Volcarona that you're kinda underrating. Dual STABs + HP Ground isn't even that bad of a set, although in many cases it is suboptimal. Replacing Bug Buzz is very viable if it's backed by Pursuit support to take care of the Latis (let's say you're using TTar + Exca for anti-hazard). Heatran alone is enough reason to run it because Volcarona is a fantastic lure for it, and it can be one of the largest obstacles to a Volcarona sweep. Passho Berry prevents Volcarona from being RK'd by CB Azumarill's Aqua Jet and has misc uses vs other Water-type attacks eg Scarf Keldeo if Volcarona isn't at full (a normal situation), setting up on Rotom-W with relative ease, setting up on bulky Water Scalds (Starmie and Slowbro are main examples). Considering that Water is a fairly dominant typing both offensively and defensively, Passho Berry makes sense as an option, of course depending on preference and the particular team.

I suppose I'll speak on the slate a bit.

Definitely agree with raising Empoleon. It simply has a ton of utility at the moment, as defensive sets check (although it doesn't always counter) a ton of threats like Clefable, Mega Diancie, Talonflame (w/ Defense investment), and Mega Aerodactyl and can provide invaluable SR/Defog support for balanced teams. Chople is a pretty underrated option that I talked with ben gay about a bit. It really enhances Empoleon's utility by allowing it to serve as a one-time check to tons of mons with Fighting STAB or Fighting coverage like Mega Lopunny, Megagross, Azumarill, Keldeo...it gives Empoleon more opportunities to get off a last ditch Defog/SR/Roar, which can prove insanely valuable. All in all a solid mon with tons of utility that belongs in B.

Skarm should definitely move up to A-. SpD sets have had a fantastic showing in particular recently, as they combine Skarm's renowned ability to deal with physical threats like Excadrill and Mega Metagross (although it does lose some capabilities in that aspect) with the ability to handle some key special threats in the current metagame like Mega Diancie, Latios, and Tornadus-T that lack Heat Wave, all very powerful and difficult to handle mons. This combined with Skarm's fantastic utility in its ability to provide SR, Spikes, and/or Defog support make it a solid contender for A-.

I haven't really done much testing with Mega Medicham or seen it in action much at all recently, but despite its lack of presence in the metagame I'd say it's still pretty good, and the advantages of Mega Gallade are overstated. Mega Medicham has two priority moves, which is extremely underrated in the sense that it gives Mega Medicham a nice option vs faster mons, and also utility in revenge killing as Mega Medicham's priority is surprisingly powerful. More immediate wallbreaking power is also significant. It is pretty useless against teams with Mega Sableye, but it does pretty well against most other teams, especially when backed by Pursuit support, as many teams simply aren't that well-equipped to handle it. I'd say B- makes sense.

Iffy on raising Starmie. On one hand, it's offensive set is up there with Excadrill in terms of being the best offensive spinner, sporting tons of offensive power and generally being difficult to wall with the coverage tools to catch most mons, even Ferrothorn if it wants to. The defensive set is a cornerstone on some balanced builds, as its spinning capabilities and ability to switch into the likes of Heatran and Keldeo consistently make it extremely viable and useful. On the other hand, it's a bit bizarre to place Starmie with Pokemon like Clefable and Mega Sableye, mons that define the tier to a far greater extent than Starmie. Starmie also has the issue that it's Pursuit bait, and defensive sets can even be setup fodder for mons like Mega Altaria, Clefable, and Mega Charizard X. Offensive sets are relatively unreliable in terms of hazard removal capabilities as they struggle to find switch-in opportunities and simply lack longevity, which is an issue regardless of how offensively biased the team is. I think A is a fine representation of Starmie's position in the metagame.

Don't have too much to say about Tyrantrum and Alakazam, just that I completely agree with raising them. Tyrantrum has insane destructive capabilities and actually some pretty neat versatility in terms of options between DD, Band, and Scarf. Alakazam's Life Orb set is a potent breaker that is difficult to handle for many balanced teams, especially seeing as Scarftar can't Pursuit it. Sash sets are also as good at RKing with the help of a guaranteed sash as ever.
 
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