Lower Tiers ORAS NU Viability Rankings

[MemeMeme Island]

A to A+

Psychic types are now a dominant force in the metagame, with things like Jynx and Mesprit roaming rampant, and Xatu is no exception. It's able to fulfill multiple roles at once, being both a hazard setter and remover, and most Pokemon aren't capable of fulfilling both of those roles at once. Gurdurr has also dropped, and it can also bounce back Garbodor's spikes, notable things. It has a good offensive set too, its coverage moves hit most hazard setters for super effective damage and even outside of hazard setters it hits a lot of the tier for super effective damage. The pivot set is good too. Did I mention that it has a recovery move? Xatu is very good at consistently keeping hazards off the field throughout the match, it's a lot better than most of the rest of A and should be a rank higher.

C+ to C

This Pokemon is a giant pile of horse crap these days. What can it do that's relevant anymore? Exeggutor is definitely better due to actually having a good Sp. Attack stat. OK, it can afford to run a Modest nature while also outspeeding scarfers. Cool. Also Mesprit, Xatu and Garbodor are everywhere. I can't stand seeing it in the same rank as Exeggutor. It needs to drop.

 

[ryan]

specs simisage is rly good. fast grass with immediate power yum. don't unrank it.

sand is also p good imo. nobody ever uses it but it dicks on offense and not much can handle lo sandslash defensively. stoutdog is strong too ofc. they're definitely a package deal at this point.

 

[yogi]

Victreebel -> C : Disagree

I think you're underselling this Mon. It has access to two great moves in sucker punch and weather ball, which whilst situational are both blessings in their own right; with one allowing to remedy slightly the lack of high speed and the other allowing for it to use a base 100 fire move whilst in the sun. Something else to note is that if you're going for a mixed +spe set, you out speed quite a lot of mons that threaten eggy out, e.g. rott, shiftry, aboma. Meaning that it still has a niche as a mixed wall breaker. I mean it certainly doesn't have the damage output eggy does, but it makes up for that in other areas as far as I'm concerned.

I also don't see how saying that garb, xatu and mes hurt its viability more than eggys, because most sets carry a form of bug move, be it u-turn or signal beam and garb can smack a weakened one with a gunk shot.

 

[Punchshroom]

specs simisage is rly good. fast grass with immediate power yum. don't unrank it.

I realize this post was deleted as I was responding, but I still gotta ask this: seeing as one of Simisage's few big niches involve the fast Rock Slide to bop Charizard, Jynx, Vivillon and circumvent Magmortar, why would Simisage favor Choice Specs over Life Orb, which also synergizes well with Overgrow Giga Drain (assuming you have it, I cannot for the life of me locate your Specs Simisage set)?

Victreebel
C+ to C

This Pokemon is a giant pile of horse crap these days. What can it do that's relevant anymore? Exeggutor is definitely better due to actually having a good Sp. Attack stat. OK, it can afford to run a Modest nature while also outspeeding scarfers. Cool. Also Mesprit, Xatu and Garbodor are everywhere. I can't stand seeing it in the same rank as Exeggutor. It needs to drop.

Exeggutor's Special Attack may be better, but Victreebel's Special Attack is pretty sufficient: due to Weather Ball becoming a 100 BP Fire-type coverage move, with Sun further amplifying its power to 150, Victreebel has what is essentially 3 STABs, all of which are really powerful and difficult to wall. Victreebel also has more potential options than Exeggutor, such as Growth, Knock Off, and Encore, that can be used to trip up opponents and punish pivot switching and whatnot. I don't know why you're bringing up the Psychic-types considering they can't switch into Victreebel at all (and Xatu is a bigger problem to Eggy than to Victree in any case), and Garbodor doesn't even manage to beat Victree 1v1. I could also bring up the popularity of Lum Pursuit Skuntank as a far trickier obstacle for Eggy to maneuver around.

 

[Earth]

Supporting Mesprit to S rank.
Mesprit is basically a monster in the current metagame. It can go from the very good SR setter to the threatening Specs set that literally destroys so many things, it can also be some LO or CM offensive sets or anything.
It really is the exact definition of S rank "Pokemon in this rank fill all of the main criteria and then some with a strong proficiency in one or more of the positive traits. If a Pokemon in this rank has any downsides, they are usually tame or eclipsed by their obvious assets."
So yeah, a very strong mon that really deserves S rank in my opinion, as much as Jynx and Tauros.

 

[ryan]

S rank doesn't need to be only the best offensive pokemon in the metagame. with that in mind, i support moving mesprit up. if you look at the criteria we set when we revamped the rankings, mesprit fills all four. its threat level is insane because it rips a lot of balanced teams apart, and its versatility helps enhance its threat level. it has an absurd amount of coverage for literally every pokemon in the metagame, so you can build a team around it or add it to support the rest of the team by breaking specific checks and counters to other pokemon on your team. its splashability is also high because of that versatility. you can run offensive and defensive sets, and its bulkier sets can support the team with stealth rock, weather setting, pivoting, twaving shit, etc. its consistency is on the weaker side solely because of skuntank, but you can even beat that with colbur hp ground. finally, its effect on the metagame is pretty high. it doesn't actually change the effectiveness of much because of the versatility of its sets (i.e. you don't often use specific pokemon to check it because that's hard to do), but it heavily threatens balance and bulky offense.

rhydon should also move to S. the thing has been staple since the beginning of this gen of NU, and the only time its viability fell was when mega steelix was allowed because it just did everything rhydon did better because it was broken. offensively, its dual stab alone threatens the majority of the tier, and megahorn covers the like two things that its dual stab doesn't. it checks a large portion of the tier in one slot, which makes it an auto-include on tons of teams. threat level is of course high; even bulky waters generally take at least 30 from eq, and very little can take advantage of rhydon with a free switch. it is the single most splashable pokemon in the tier, and likely the most consistent as well. its effects on the metagame are incredibly apparent; fires run hp grass, tauros has begun to run iron tail, and a ton of pokemon creep the dual dance set.

neither of these pokemon are as destructive as tauros and jynx often are, but both fit the criteria we set so well. i can see why you'd be against mesprit moving up when you compare it to two pokemon who have been highly criticized as broken, even if they aren't banned. but it can be every bit as destructive in so many ways.

also don't know why floatzel is still all the way up in A rank. it's probably at the worst it has been in a long time right now. wants to run hydro, ice beam, focus blast, hp grass, and crunch in addition to a support move like it used to be able to run, but it can't. unlike something like mesprit which can run all kinds of coverage, floatzel needs at worst the four special moves i listed or else it is outright walled by nearly every water-type in the tier. i've mostly found the speed unnecessary in this metagame and its power underwhelming.

 

[Punchshroom]

Rhydon is the single most splashable pokemon in the tier

And you were even talking about Mesprit too, one of the most consistent Stealth Rockers in the entire tier and practically the most used mon in NU as a whole.

Regarding my stance on Mesprit and Rhydon themselves, I can agree with them being S Rank. Mesprit can do practically everything you need it to (aside from going fully physical), and its stats fully facilitate its ability to pull them off while offering incredible role compression, essentially making Mesprit the definitive 'glue-mon' of the tier. You can do offensive Colbur SR with various coverage moves to exert offensive pressure, defensive SR with TWave, Choice Specs that 2HKOes traditional Mesprit checks and just hits really hard in general, even Choice Scarf can work to an extent, and all of them have the ability to consider Healing Wish. As for Rhydon, I feel as though its defensive set is falling somewhat out of grace (though it's still pretty good), but its offensive DualDance set remains as threatening as ever, as its dual STABs coming from 130 base Attack are really not easy to take comfortably without the few dedicated counters, and its sheer bulk makes it so that even 4x priority is not bringing it down easy after setup, so a good number of teams usually (or have to) prepare at least 2 checks to it.

As for Garbodor, as absurdly useful, customisable, and impactful it is, I'll concede the one apparent flaw is that while Garbodor can be built offensively, no one needs to goes out of their way to prepare for this defensively, unlike the nominated S Ranks here.

 

[Tony]

A to A+

Psychic types are now a dominant force in the metagame, with things like Jynx and Mesprit roaming rampant, and Xatu is no exception. It's able to fulfill multiple roles at once, being both a hazard setter and remover, and most Pokemon aren't capable of fulfilling both of those roles at once. Gurdurr has also dropped, and it can also bounce back Garbodor's spikes, notable things. It has a good offensive set too, its coverage moves hit most hazard setters for super effective damage and even outside of hazard setters it hits a lot of the tier for super effective damage. The pivot set is good too. Did I mention that it has a recovery move? Xatu is very good at consistently keeping hazards off the field throughout the match, it's a lot better than most of the rest of A and should be a rank higher.

I was shocked too see Xatu isn't ranked A+ already when looking at the viability rankings for the first time in a while. Good points were brought up by user MemeMemeIsland already (glorious username btw), but I want to reiterate Xatu's impact a bit more.

First of all, Xatu is a lot more than just hazard control. While Xatu is a good choice for hazard control, it can also do many other things and do them well. Calm Mind Xatu is a menace still, even after the Chicken Pass ban. Especially against bulkier and stall teams, btw. Not being able to Toxic or Roar/Whirlwind out a set-up sweeper is huge, and stall teams resorting to niche checks like Skill Swap + Toxic Bronzor illustrates that perfectly.

Additionally Xatu has good speed, good resistances (and a Ground-type immunity), access to U-turn to ensure it doesn't soak up all of your momentum and great coverage options like Heat Wave and Grass Knot as well. Xatu's cons don't come anywhere near to outweighing its pros and realistically it impacts the NU metagame significantly more than the other A ranked Pokemon. I'm backing the nomination for Xatu to move to A+ without a doubt.

 

[The Goomy]

I was shocked too see Xatu isn't ranked A+ already when looking at the viability rankings for the first time in a while. Good points were brought up by user MemeMemeIsland already (glorious username btw), but I want to reiterate Xatu's impact a bit more.

First of all, Xatu is a lot more than just hazard control. While Xatu is a good choice for hazard control, it can also do many other things and do them well. Calm Mind Xatu is a menace still, even after the Chicken Pass ban. Especially against bulkier and stall teams, btw. Not being able to Toxic or Roar/Whirlwind out a set-up sweeper is huge, and stall teams resorting to niche checks like Skill Swap + Toxic Bronzor illustrates that perfectly.

Additionally Xatu has good speed, good resistances (and a Ground-type immunity), access to U-turn to ensure it doesn't soak up all of your momentum and great coverage options like Heat Wave and Grass Knot as well. Xatu's cons don't come anywhere near to outweighing its pros and realistically it impacts the NU metagame significantly more than the other A ranked Pokemon. I'm backing the nomination for Xatu to move to A+ without a doubt.

Agreeing with user: TonyFlygon

Xatu should realistically be A+ or even S rank.

The impact it has on the metagame and even teambuilding is mind-boggling.

I think we all appreciate Xatu due to the fact that Gen5 NU was dominated by hazards and we still don't have access to the best Defoggers/Spinners, but at the same time it speaks to just how good Xatu is in that the tier isn't absolute hazard cancer despite this. Like Tony said it can really fit on a wide variety of team archetypes, can change its moveset to fit a team, and really doesn't have any negative downside that I can see baring the occasional Mold Breaker SR setter (really uncommon and Xatu can also be paired with a spinner on certain builds).

In fact, Xatu literally warps the metagame around it. Smeargle dropped down to NU and was immediately dunked to PU simply because Xatu is so good and so prevalent.
Certain SR setters simply cannot set up SR on Xatu (see Torterra, some Mesprit sets, most Steelix, Ferroseeed, even Regirock gets PP stalled), most Spikes/Tspikes settters are also either walled by Xatu or are forced to run a different set to beat it (see fast offensive Garbodor). This basically forces anyone that wants to use one of those hazard setters to run a strong Pursuit trapper which is hard to find/fit on a team in NU. Also, the combination of Xatu + Spin is prevalent because it almost guarantees ease with hazards due to what I said above and the fact that fitting a ghost with a hazard setter + pursuit trapper is hard.

As someone that has used almost every Xatu set imaginable and on many teams over several years, it's amazing to me that this mon isn't ranked A+ or even S.

It simply fills a ton of roles, allows for momentum, checks a lot of the metagame, and has no glaring flaw that makes you really not want to use it on practically every team.

Whew.

 

[boltsandbombers]

Update:

Mesprit A+ -> S
Xatu A -> A+
Floatzel A -> B+
Gurdurr B+ -> A-
Dodrio C- -> UR
Rotom-S C+ -> C
Throh C+ -> C-

Needs more discussion:

Rhydon A+ -> S
Simisage C+ -> UR

 

[Punchshroom]

Rhydon is still one of the meta's most defining threats, as it has really high Attack coupled with excellent dual STAB in Edgequake, and has more than capable bulk to make use of its great boosting options in Rock Polish and Swords Dance. It even gets Megahorn for good measure, just in case it wants perfect neutral coverage on the meta. Bulky Rhydon sets have slightly suffered as the meta is adapting to the threat of offensive Rhydon, although bulky Rhydon still has offensive presence (it's barely weaker than Jolly Rhydon), so Rhydon operates incredibly well as a tank either way, just that it merely chooses between sweeping potential or just tanking hits even better. I can see this in S Rank.

Kind of an underwhelming mon as a whole, the best role I can see Simisage acting in this meta would be as a mini-Sceptile, although given how devastatingly effective Sceptile was during its stay in NU, the fact that they can be compared alone could just be significant enough for Simisage. Fast and strong Leaf Storms and Overgrow Giga Drains can pummel stuff and grant sustain, while its Speed and coverage moves, such as Rock Slide and Focus Blast, let it smack most offensive Grass checks. Unfortunately it doesn't outspeed all of them (Scyther and Pyroar), and it doesn't have coverage for the tier's bulky Poison-types, but it does at least outspeed Charizard and others, which is unique for a Grass-type (bar Jumpluff, who is more of a Flying-type attacker anyway), and plenty workable despite its flaws. Would preferably see this remain in C-, doesn't deserve to be unranked imo.

My own nom:

Now I won't deny that Pinsir is a cool mon, but B+ somewhat oversells it imo. Its coverage is wicked cool and it can really do some damage after a Swords Dance, but it's not particularly fast so it can't really maintain a sweep for long, and its main STAB isn't terribly strong to be simply thrown out unboosted either. Being a pure Bug-type makes it easy to wear down via entry hazards, contribute very little defensively, and makes it difficult to set up Swords Dance. Pinsir may have good Defense, but most Ground- and Fighting-types can either hold their own against boosted Pinsir or prevent it from setting up outright, while Pinsir's average HP and Special Defense means it takes a lot from the Grass-types' alternate STAB moves or even just Leaf Storm. Pinsir's low HP also means it doesn't want to take any sort of neutral STAB hit, so it has little room for setup and has poor survivability in general. While the Mold Breaker Stealth Rock set may be more immediately consistent, it comes at the cost of not being able to do much else other than just throw out its unboosted attacks, and Pinsir's lack of anti-setup options can leave it prone to being taken advantage of by bulkier Pokemon. This also does not do any favors regarding Pinsir's longevity either. This could stand to drop to B.

 

[Hootie]

Kabutops should drop to B+. The meta has been really unfavorable ever since Gastrodon dropped down and even more so with the return of Gurdurr. As a Swords Dance sweeper, Samurott is much more consistent with much better coverage and the fact that it can work off of surprise value because of its potential to be Special. Said Gastrodon usage made other Grass-types more common, which again hinders Kabutops' ability to sweep through teams. The best way for it get around some of its counters is to run Superpower, but this in turn gives up its sweeping potential in favor of being an above average wallbreaker. Its Scarf set is also really bad; seriously don't run it over Barbaracle because it at least has Switcheroo to cripple defensive checks/counters, while the only standout traits Kabutops has is a stronger Stone Edge and Rapid Spin (lol). Given the right matchup and it can be fearsome, but due to the prevalence of its checks as well as recent meta trends, it can be a bit inconsistent, especially when you compare it to the rest of A-.

Aurorus needs to drop to B+ as well, maybe even further down to B. The biggest standout trait is has over other Ice-types is a really strong STAB and Freeze-Dry to get past Lanturn. However, in terms of other Ice-type wallbreakers, Jynx is already capable of breaking past Ice resists with Psyshock and goes a step further by being able to break past Hariyama and Magmortar, which being able to break past the former is pretty huge due to how common it is. Both need Voltturn support to be brought in safely and lack defensive synergy, but the threat value of Jynx is just on a much larger scale due to Lovely Kiss and its much better Speed tier. I know that may be an unfair comparison considering Jynx is two subranks higher, but seeing both residing in the A category comes off as strange when Aurorus' benefits are so minuscule compared to the all of the tools that Jynx has. I also consider most of the Pokemon currently in A- to be staples for a lot teams and I can't really say the same for Aurorus given its qualities. I see it more on the caliber of Abomasnow as a slow Ice-type wallbreaker with limited switch in opportunities and it should be dropped as such.

 

[Wandering Wobbuffet]

Kabutops should drop to B+. The meta has been really unfavorable ever since Gastrodon dropped down and even more so with the return of Gurdurr. As a Swords Dance sweeper, Samurott is much more consistent with much better coverage and the fact that it can work off of surprise value because of its potential to be Special. Said Gastrodon usage made other Grass-types more common, which again hinders Kabutops' ability to sweep through teams. The best way for it get around some of its counters is to run Superpower, but this in turn gives up its sweeping potential in favor of being an above average wallbreaker. Its Scarf set is also really bad; seriously don't run it over Barbaracle because it at least has Switcheroo to cripple defensive checks/counters, while the only standout traits Kabutops has is a stronger Stone Edge and Rapid Spin (lol). Given the right matchup and it can be fearsome, but due to the prevalence of its checks as well as recent meta trends, it can be a bit inconsistent, especially when you compare it to the rest of A-.

Aurorus needs to drop to B+ as well, maybe even further down to B. The biggest standout trait is has over other Ice-types is a really strong STAB and Freeze-Dry to get past Lanturn. However, in terms of other Ice-type wallbreakers, Jynx is already capable of breaking past Ice resists with Psyshock and goes a step further by being able to break past Hariyama and Magmortar, which being able to break past the former is pretty huge due to how common it is. Both need Voltturn support to be brought in safely and lack defensive synergy, but the threat value of Jynx is just on a much larger scale due to Lovely Kiss and its much better Speed tier. I know that may be an unfair comparison considering Jynx is two subranks higher, but seeing both residing in the A category comes off as strange when Aurorus' benefits are so minuscule compared to the all of the tools that Jynx has. I also consider most of the Pokemon currently in A- to be staples for a lot teams and I can't really say the same for Aurorus given its qualities. I see it more on the caliber of Abomasnow as a slow Ice-type wallbreaker with limited switch in opportunities and it should be dropped as such.

I feel like your aurorus argument is a bit flawed. Due to the fact that you only need hyper voice, freeze dry, and earth power you have room for a filler. I generally run psychic there which allows you to 2HKO AV Yama.

 

[Punchshroom]

Just wanna jump in on the Aurorus discussion here; me and ryan compared it with Abomasnow some pages back, and I don't believe Aurorus deserves to fall below Abomasnow when it has been able to consistently make use of its bulk and resistances better to enter battle better than Abomasnow can. I'd say B+ is the lowest Aurorus deserves atm.

Time for more noms:

C- to UR

I haven't seen Pawn in play for a loooong time, mostly because there's just so little reason to warrant using this nowadays. It's not fast and it can hardly be called bulky (much less an Ice or Grass resist), and it can have a tough time setting up safely in this meta. Its typing does help it check Psychics somewhat, but the likes of Skuntank and Steelix have been doing that much more consistently, and Pawn can still be subject to powerful blows like Specs Mesprit's Signal Beam and Xatu's Heat Wave. The meta has been long accustomed to the threat of SD Knock Off + Sucker Punch ever since Pawn was even relevant as an offensive threat, plus Shiftry's presence didn't do any favors to make the meta less guarded. The ever-increasing number of checks since the last time Pawn saw the light of day, such as Steelix, Gastrodon, Hitmonchan, Gurdurr means Pawn has very little hope of regaining...whatever remains of its former glory. Even with its unique STAB combo, as of right now Pawniard is basically an outclassed version of SD Mawile (hardly a noteworthy set itself in NU), which has better typing for setting up (though its bulk is no better than Pawn's) and more importantly is walled by less mons.

B- to C+ / C

Let's face it: this Pokemon has been merely adequate at best and woefully underwhelming pretty much every other time since its debut. It's slow, not bulky, has numerous exploitable weaknesses, and can't even effectively make use of most of its resistances. Choice Band Trevenant's attacks at least boast decent neutral coverage and do a solid chunk to most of the meta, but it's barely worth it since it's so easily revenge killed by nearly everything, especially due to its Wood Hammer reliance as its other moves barely scratch ~100 BP even after STAB. Any other set it tries, primarily the Harvest sets, falls short either due to inconsistency or just being plain bad, as all the aforementioned issues very much apply here, if not are compounded due to most of these Trevenant sets not having immediate offensive presence to at least deter certain switches. Even Natural Cure falls somewhat short as Trevenant's supposed niche: while it's nice to be a Scald switch-in that doesn't get crippled over time, it's not so nice to remain crippled by it should it stay in and deal pitiful damage to switch-ins. Certainly doesn't compensate for its Pursuit weakness either.

 

[Earth]

Cacturne to C / C-

ok, cacturne has once been alright since shiftry wasnt there but it is now mediocre at best. shiftry outclasses it so much offensively, and it's just not good at setting up spikes.
its bad speed makes it unable to spam its moves properly, plus its lack of knock off makes it just bad compared to the threat that shiftry is.

Chatot to C+

this thing may be not too used nowadays, since swellow is more common/better.
it has niches over swellow since it's more powerful than it, and it also has access to a special flying type stab that can help it touch more things. its speed isnt bad also, which makes it a decent enough mon, but swellow's speed still makes it a more dangerous threat since it basically outspeeds everything non-scarfed in this tier.

Beheeyem to C- / UR

c- might be the best for this since it's pretty much outclassed by specs mesprit which is very common right now, although it has a very small niche as a TR sweeper over mesprit, the latter is still faster and bulkier. i see no reason to use beheeyem outside of tr.

 

[Take Azelfie]

Gorebyss
C ---> UR
I'm pretty sure everyone forgot this Pokemon existed when Omastar dropped down and it kind of just got left on the VR. As far as I can tell there are only 3 reasons to ever this Pokemon and those three reasons are very VERY niche. The first is not being weak to Mach Punch which is decent SpeakIng Hitmonchan is popular at the moment. 2 is that it has Signal Beam to hit Musharna, which is very VERY situational and match up dependant and generally speaking not worth when you account for the decline in Musharna usage. The final thing worth noting is that it has Baton Pass which only has merit on Choice Specs (a set that also faces competition from Floatzel) outside of those 3 things Gorebyss is straight out slower, weaker, frailer, and lacks diversity outside of its to sub optimal sets. Omastar has a defensive set, shell smash set, suicide lead, choice specs and probably another one or two I can't think of. Simply put Gorebyss should never actually be used over Omastar and that also means it should be unranked.

 

[Realistic Waters]

Agree with Earth, Cacturne is ass and literally loses to almost everything 1 on 1. Chatot and Beheeyem should probably drop too...

also a few nominations from me;

A- --> B / Preferably B-

This thing should move down a lot, think someone nominated this to drop before. Don't really feel like writing so much about what problems it has but it's special set (the main reason to use this thing), 85 special attack isn't too good but it's somewhat bypassed by it's high base power stabs, but then you can never hit things reliably with focus blast or yet alone it sucks your most accurate move has 85%. Life Orb makes you almost as strong as the other NU fire types like Magmortar, Charizard and Pyroar but at the cost of having defenses as thin as paper but Eviolite means you might struggle to break through bulkier targets, the former fire types aren't really put in this position to that extent. It's Swords Dance set even has less viability although +2 Flare Blitz is neat when your not dying to recoil. Jolly/Timid nature at +1 still won't keep up with the most popular offensive trends like Tauros, Archeops, Swellow and Floatzel and even get to decent speed you really need to be careful about using protect. (only just about outspeeds pyroar)

C --> Unrank

Unrank please. Gogoat's general only viable set is Bulk Up, Horn Leech, Earthquake, Substitute/Milk Drink but it's really mediocre in play and struggles with numerous threats such as Scyther, Weezing, Vileplume and Charizard. Most other things don't really care because it's offensive pressure is fairly miserable. Pure grass typing just gives Gogoat more problems and it's slow. It's pretty easy to keep the offensive pressure going with more offensive teams and more balanced teams usually just carrying a hard counter.

C --> Preferably Unrank

Don't even think about using Choice Band either but this should probably get the boot as well. It needs a tremendous amounts of support to work overall. Checks and counters are a common site on standard ORAS NU teams (+6 Seed Bomb tickles Steelix and there's everything else), I wouldn't consider using dual screens together so really there's just memento support (Mainly just Skuntank and the poor Jumpluff) Even Gurdurr even lives a +6 Extreme speed. Not much else to say.

 

[Evan.]

hey there quick post but its smth i feel strongly about so lgi

gorebyss should definitely still stay c-. the psychic / hp fire set aka THE GOOD SET gives it a niche in being able to get around everything that omastar does (barring like lanturn) as well as poliwrath + ferroseed which omastar cant really get by. also youre kinda underrating the not weak to mach punch thing since it goes a LONG way in this meta b/c chan is on SO many teams, which you can see from tour / ladder usage stats. its not a good mon but it definitely has a niche as a shell smasher so it should stay at C-.

 

[Froggyboy]

simisage is fine where it is, its a fast grass type with great mixed coverage, which should carve itself a fine enough niche to keep it ranked at c- of all things. being able to hit both fire/flying and steel types without wasting your hidden power is also sweet, giving it a niche over lilligant, plus having some of the premier grass checks(zard, mag) be unable to switch in since sage naturally outspeeds is also a big bonus. sucks that garbodor is on so many teams, but hey, offensive set doesn't take leaf storm well, and defensive sets are still 3hko'd by storm after one hazard. even bulky mons struggle against it since gunk 2hkos mixed def audino, mush dies to leaf + knock after rocks if im not dumb, yama hates gunk obviously there are a lot of problems with it, like bitch ass pyroar and archeops outspeeding and having 4mss of sorts, but hey, its a fucking c- mon, obviously it is going to have some flaws, and quite frankly, its better than a lot of things down there(why is relicanth still ranked again?) and some even in c(wtf does kadabra do?) plus it has a killer cut.

 

[erisia]

C -> Unranked: Disagree: I don't see how Linoone has gotten any worse in this metagame. Seed Bomb rips Gastrodon apart, Steelix is not as ubiquitous as it used to be due to most teams having solid answers for it, and Extremespeed still rips through most offensive Pokemon after a boost. At the very most this thing should join C- with Vigoroth; there's no way that Linoone is less viable than Vigoroth in this metagame (and the latter still definitely deserves C-). Dual screens isn't even that bad of a playstyle; sure it doesn't really work against defensive teams but combined with some balance breakers it can give you a really good matchup against offense, and there are a few good setters in the tier (Mesprit, Xatu, heck Meowstic-M is actually slept on for this role).

C -> C-: Agree: Specs Mesprit basically does this thing's job but better, doing enough damage to get around the likes of Steelix and Skuntank with good precition. Beheeyem's extra power is usually overkill most of the time, and the lack of Speed makes it very vulnerable to other wallbreakers such as Magmortar and even Hariyama. There's also some ambiguity about what set Mesprit runs, which makes it more dangerous overall as opponents may play differently around it. However, Beheeyem does have a decent niche due to Species Clause; it can make a decent wallbreaker so that Calm Mind Mesprit can sweep in the late game more effectively. Since Mesprit is usually the best Psychic-type lure itself, finding a good lure to support Mesprit can be difficult, and Beheeyem does this adequately. Trick Room sets could also be decent for this purpose. This is enough to warrant keeping Beheeyem ranked in my opinion.

And some of my own nominations.

B -> B-/C+: The Sliggoo hype has obviously died down since the Sceptile meta, and seeing niche defensive mons such as Clefairy, Bronzor, Misdreavus, and Tangela in the lower ranks makes me think Sliggoo warrants a similar spot. There are much more generally useful checks to Grass-types such as Magmortar and Miltank, so Sliggoo is usually relegated to being a wincon (which is easily stopped by Mega Audino) or a very passive specially based set on stall teams. I actually think the offensive special attacker set (252 HP / 252 SpA with Eviolite or something) has decent potential as a lure or general tank, which is why I think B- would be appropriate depending on how much traction it gets.

B -> B-: It's difficult to argue that Manectric is much better than Electivire. While its Speed tier and power are both slightly higher, missing out on a powerful Earthquake is dreadful considering how useful the move is for damaging Lanturn, Magmortar, and even Hariyama. Furthermore, it ties with standouts like Scyther that it really doesn't want to Speed-tie with, and it's still outsped by Pyroar. Outspeeding Charizard is nice, but the standard Swords Dance set doesn't really like Electivire either. Overall I think it lacks the consistency of something like Band Primeape, which at least doesn't have an immunity for its pivoting move.

C+ -> B-: Klinklang was quite undersold to begin with and seems like it's gotten a little better in this metagame. Yes, we know, Steelix walls it. However, Steelix is also pretty easy to overwhelm or lure, especially with threats like Specs Mesprit being more common now. Gastrodon admittedly walls it, but unlike Quagsire it doesn't have Unaware, so it can be easier to break through if it tries to stop a sweep too late. Its excellent defensive typing and good mixed bulk also can't be underrated; this thing can actually switch into Specs Mesprit that lack HP Ground for instance, giving it good setup opportunities. It also outspeeds threats like Scarf Jynx with a single boost while still being able to use an Adamant nature. I know it's trendy to hate on this Pokemon but I think it has more value as a bulky sweeper than people make out.

 

[Shadestep]

B -> B-/C+: The Sliggoo hype has obviously died down since the Sceptile meta, and seeing niche defensive mons such as Clefairy, Bronzor, Misdreavus, and Tangela in the lower ranks makes me think Sliggoo warrants a similar spot. There are much more generally useful checks to Grass-types such as Magmortar and Miltank, so Sliggoo is usually relegated to being a wincon (which is easily stopped by Mega Audino) or a very passive specially based set on stall teams. I actually think the offensive special attacker set (252 HP / 252 SpA with Eviolite or something) has decent potential as a lure or general tank, which is why I think B- would be appropriate depending on how much traction it gets.

While I agree with your other points, I must say I disagree with this one. Sliggoo hasn't gotten worse at all and I don't know why it would drop. I used Sliggoo during my Dark Horse run and found out it was still incredibly good. The Curse set is a great wincon, and isn't exclusive to Stall-teams at all. I made a decent Balance-team and found Sliggoo to be a great Special Sponge, even being able to take hits from Jynx for example. I haven't actually tried out the offensive set but it seems pretty cool to, a great Steelix lure. One great thing I found about Sliggoo is that, aside from Hazard Control, it doesn't really need much support and can take on entire teams by itself. Hence I feel it should stay B-rank, together with other mildly viable Pokemon such as Torterra and Primeape.

 

[boltsandbombers]

Kabutops A- - B+
Aurorus A- -> B+
Combusken A- -> B+
Pinsir B+ -> B
Trevenant B- -> C+
Cacturne B- -> C+
Chatot B- -> C+
Beheeyem C -> UR
Gogoat C -> UR
Linoone C -> UR

Discussion Points:

Carracosta B+ -> B
Bronzor C+ -> B-
Charizard A -> A-
Rotom-S C -> C-
Pawniard C- -> UR
Sliggoo B -> B-
Manectric B -> B-
Klinklang C+ -> B-

 

[PrinceLucian]

Just dropping some quick thoughts:

-as much as I used to like Beheeyem back in december(metagame was really slow and bulky),unranking it was pretty fair,considering mesprit is now the go-to Choice specs psychic pokemon , speed tier is crucial and mesprit also offers nice bulk and ground immunity, can actually check malamar etc. Beheeyem hits hard but in metagame where bulky offense is really good, it barely has opportunity to stand out.
Agreed with other drops,can see trevenant being even lower since its so mediocre :/

-I support Bronzor raise,it may not have much offensive presence, but it puts in So much work every single game, walling pretty much every normal and flying type(except scyther), ice types (including jynx, which beats some ice resists like magmortar) without any issues, provides a ground immunity which is huge for matchup against other rockers like steelix and rhydon that are prominent rn. I wasnt sure about bronzor bcz it seemed like one of those passive pokemon that dont do anything except setting up rocks, but realised I was wrong about it. It walls a huge number of threats,and just doesnt die during match.

-Unrank Pawniard,it basically finds no place in teams, SD set is completely walled by steelix( other sets are really mediocre), checked by new drop Gurdurr and hitmonchan,best and most common spinner we got. It has really low speed and not the best atk stat, outshadowed by shiftry which is amazing rn. Just more downsides than upsides of using it.

-Offensive special Sliggoo set is pretty average, while curse set is hard to pull off in more offensive metagame, its good on stall at least, but outside of that youll often find better pokemon that arent as passive as curse sliggoo. Drop to B- is fair, as its still decent and effective at what it does.

-I cant rly agree with Klinklang going up,its checked by too much atm, and gastro/gurdurr makes it even harder to shine and support. Sure, it has some cool resistances, but if its gonna act like a pivot to ice,psychic and flying types, its gonna get weakened easily during match. Garbodor also weakens it to the point of where any kind of priority can finish it of.

-Drop Manectric, its speed tier seems ok on first sight, but speed tying with mismagius/scyther, getting outsped by pyroar,tauros/archeops is crucial for a fast electric. I like even Zebstrika more than this pokemon due to 116 speed tier and a decent spat with life orb. Manectric cant break any bulkier cores anyway, and gets walled by lanturn. Id rather run electivire which breaks both lanturn gastrodon, ohkoes magmortar with EQ, which is one of common electric checks.

-I think Zard is pretty cool mon and can run SD set which checks fighting types and shiftry,cripples rock and ground types well, it can function pretty well with decent hazard removal. Special set has nice coverage and actually breaks hariyama/miltank. Id like others opinions on zard, havent rly used it nowadays. Its a strong threat whenever I face it.

-Thats mostly it, may drop some suggestions later

 

[Punchshroom]

Bronzor is ok, but the fundamental problem I have with it is that Bronzor can struggle to fit on any team that isn't primarily defensive by nature. While its resistances are terrific and its effective bulk pretty respectable, let's not forget Bronzor's poor offensive presence and lack of sustain. Gush all you want over Psywave potentially giving you a 150 BP Psychic-type attack, because it's still coming from uninvested base 24 Special Attack; Psywave isn't as reliable as Seismic Toss / Night Shade since you never know when you're actually going to KO something. Bronzor's lack of power and recovery both lend to it being quite easily overwhelmed as well, especially if you're using it as your lone resist to a particular attacking type without any Wish support; what the opponent can do is just chip away at Bronzor for a couple of turns before the Toxic damage builds up enough to threaten them out, and if Bronzor is your lone response against more than one threat at once you'll be in even rougher shape. Oh, and Bronzor is also the biggest Pursuit bait ever, so that's not doing it favors either.

Not much to say about this that hasn't been said already; there's so little reason to warrant using this over Rotom, or even in general, that I have doubts whether it's even worth ranking at this point. Just drop this already :/

It kind of feels weird putting this below Scyther when its SD set can prove to be just as tricky, if not more so, to maneuver around and stop from potentially threatening to punch holes / sweep. It also still has its trusty special set; while less splashable compared to Pyroar, it can potentially prove to be an even bigger problem to contain due to its greater movepool (with moves like Roost, Earthquake, and Focus Blast) as well as Blaze, making it so that only the Pokemon with the most raw special bulk can deal with Zard. It deserves to stay.

Probably could've done with nomming this when the tier isn't congested with more Klinklang checks (Gastrodon, Hitmonchan, Gurdurr) than it has been for a long while. It's fallen from grace ever since Steelix became a mainstay, and I definitely don't foresee it rising in this meta. Yes, Klinklang does function as a neat and unique wincon, but the problem is that it can only function as a wincon. Its useful resists are diminished due to the fact that Klinklang can't be used as a switch-in to most attackers, lest it weaken its chances at sweeping. Thus, Klinklang's early- to mid-game presence is nearly non-existant as it wants its checks out of the way if it wants to accomplish anything, and considering the prevalence of them it's going to be harder for Klinklang this time around. Meanwhile, the rest of the team has to find some other way to check Normal-, Flying-, Psychic-, and Ice-type attackers and whatnot.

 

[erisia]

Psywave actually is like Seismic Toss / Night Shade: It does 50-150 fixed HP damage to targets, with a random value within that range being selected. It's probably not as good as Seismic Toss overall because you can't rely on 2HKOs or 3HKOs with it but it's still decent.

C -> Unranked: Disagree: Also regarding Rotom-Fan, the main reason you'd want this is as a mixed defensive pivot that burns things and then pivots out with a slow Volt Switch. Air Slash for Lilligant/Vivillon/Gurdurr, much better defensive stats, and being able to run Leftovers without fearing Leftovers are all reasons to use this over base Rotom. I think this would only be useful on certain balance teams but I don't think it should be unranked. Scarf is also easily walled but Trick still cripples most Ground-types and the extra power over base Rotom is quite nice as well as Air Slash flinches, giving it a niche over other Electric-types that would rather do other things (such as Manectric and Electivire).

C- -> Unranked: Disagree: Yes, this gets countered by Fighting-types with Mach Punch; it did before when it was ranked much higher. However, while it does get overshadowed to an extent by Shiftry and Mawile, Pawniard's combination of Steel-typing, Eviolite, and Defiant gives it enough of a niche to remain ranked at least. With an Eviolite Swords Dance set, it's much bulkier than Mawile, has stronger priority, and a better Speed tier that it can utilise Knock Off with. Base 60 obviously isn't great but it puts Pawniard ahead of wallbreakers like Golurk and Aurorus, which is nice compared to Mawile which is basically forced into Sucker Punch. Switching into Defog is risky but you can come in on Defog Shiftry without any problems and get a free Swords Dance boost. STAB Knock Off is obviously great and means that Pawniard has more value than say SD Pawniard if it can't get a sweeping opportunity early game since it can just cripple things. Offensive SR is also interesting since people really don't want to Defog against it. Overall I think offensive Mawile is slightly better but not by much, so I think C- is still a good spot for it.