Lower Tiers ORAS NU Viability Rankings

etern

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Gonna make a couple lower ranked noms since I think the C ranks are a bit too crowded atm.

C- > D/Unranked: Golem isn't a bad pokemon per se, but the reasons it's ranked where it is (Sucker Punch + Sturdy Custap) are so situational most of the time that it becomes extremely difficult to justify using it over stuff like Rhydon and Steelix which offer far more consistency.

C- > D: Tail Glow pass is cool and all, but it comes at the cost of sacrificing a valuable teamslot for something that has very few setup opportunities, and can be deadweight against offensive teams in most cases. Volbeat also has virtually 0 bulk, and it's typing offers nothing to most offensive teams (since you wont be using this on Stall or Balance.) Overall, it's just a tad too gimmicky for a spot in C-, and I think D would be much more accurate of a ranking for Volbeat.

C- > D/Unranked: Vullaby was a cute mon back when Sceptile was here, but nowadays it just gets pressured by so much, that I really dont see myself ever using this on a serious team. One of the main issues I have with Vullaby is that along with it's terrible matchup against every stealth rocker bar Mesprit, it has severe 4MSS, wanting to have Foul Play, U-Turn, Toxic, Roost, Brave Bird, and Taunt. It isn't completely useless though, being a decent check to Lilligant, Musharna, and Vivillon, but I dont really see these few decent matchups it has against a couple mons equivalent to a spot in C-.
 
C- > D: Tail Glow pass is cool and all, but it comes at the cost of sacrificing a valuable teamslot for something that has very few setup opportunities, and can be deadweight against offensive teams in most cases. Volbeat also has virtually 0 bulk, and it's typing offers nothing to most offensive teams (since you wont be using this on Stall or Balance.) Overall, it's just a tad too gimmicky for a spot in C-, and I think D would be much more accurate of a ranking for Volbeat.
How. Very. Dare. You. I'll have you know that volbeat went undefeated in NUPL and carried out the most courageous acts to keep his team in the game. For this alone it deserves a promotion! Not for it to be put down a rank. I am heavily disappointed in your appreciation for sheer greatness in this pokemon.
And I'd like to suggest that volbeat does carry some nice bulk with prankster roost when t-waving and confuse raying its opponents that it makes for an excellent team slot. Furthermore, I'd suggest the only reason why volbeat isn't used as much is because it requires a burning dedication to use the mon effectively and efficiently.
 

Jisoo

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Frillish D -> C-
I've been using this quite a lot lately on my stall teams and balance teams and I have had no drawbacks with it. It counters 3 important pokemon in this meta, being Hitmonchan, Samurott, and Tauros. I understand that it could be somewhat difficult to fit on teams, but its really worth the slot being able to check so much in one slot. Also, it has quite a lot of utility that gives it the edge over other bulky waters, being willo and taunt. It also has access to recover, putting it over some of its other water types like lantern thus improving its longevity. Honestly I think this needs more attention, it works man.
 
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Lampent Unranked - > C/C-


Another spinblocker that I think deserves a rank is Lampent. I've been using lampent as a fire type in my F/W/G core to great success lately, and the immunities of both fire and normal/fighting is unmatched by anything in the tier. What sets it off from the other spinblockers, is that it is able to fully spinblock the most common spinner, Hitmonchan, while still being able to burn or hit defogers like skuntank very hard on the switch in. Compared to Frillish, Lampent is not a setup-fodder for common sweepers as it hits hard with great coverage, thus deserving at least as good ranking as Frillish in my opinion. It can also serve as a potent Trick Room setter with great synergy with Mega-Audino.
 

Jisoo

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Lampent Unranked - > C/C-


Another spinblocker that I think deserves a rank is Lampent. I've been using lampent as a fire type in my F/W/G core to great success lately, and the immunities of both fire and normal/fighting is unmatched by anything in the tier. What sets it off from the other spinblockers, is that it is able to fully spinblock the most common spinner, Hitmonchan, while still being able to burn or hit defogers like skuntank very hard on the switch in. Compared to Frillish, Lampent is not a setup-fodder for common sweepers as it hits hard with great coverage, thus deserving at least as good ranking as Frillish in my opinion. It can also serve as a potent Trick Room setter with great synergy with Mega-Audino.
While I think lampent is an ok mon, it certainly does not deserve C. It's too difficult to pull off, along with its difficulty to put on teams, and other ghost types like rotom or even golurk are easier to put on teams. Not to mention it has almost no bulk which makes it outclassed by magmortar, it doesn't have the coverage mag has, and I don't think it hits as hard as magmortar
 
While I think lampent is an ok mon, it certainly does not deserve C. It's too difficult to pull off, along with its difficulty to put on teams, and other ghost types like rotom or even golurk are easier to put on teams. Not to mention it has almost no bulk which makes it outclassed by magmortar, it doesn't have the coverage mag has, and I don't think it hits as hard as magmortar
I feel like you also missed out on the fact that it is a defensive ghost type heavily reliant on eviolite to sustain all of it's bulk, as well as losing 25% of its health, whilst only really having recovery in pain split, and the fact that defensive sets aren't as threatening as a pokemon like rotom, due to fact the it does not have the immediate presence of something like volt switch, or, continuing on the volt switch point, that it is a huge momentum suck, not really being able to pressure many defensive threats like rotom is able to.

Sorry for the relatively short post, its l8 and i was checking smogon when i replied to this, and have hwork to do D:
 

yogi

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Agree: Frillish D -> C-
This thing is actually really good in the current meta, having the niche of being literally the only thing that full on beats tauros (and specs butterfree :3) whilst also being a fantastic spin blocker with the decrease in knock off users in our meta. I'd nom this thing for C tbh.

Unranked -> C-
This. Thing. Breaks. Teams. Like, i'm not even joking, it is able to smash through teams that don't heavily resist it by use of either a choice scarf set or webs support. Even with a low spa, after 2 boosts and sitting at +4, there's not much which can stand in this banana's way with a mighty 195BP move hitting them. With access to the decent utility move glare it could even help shut down an opponents mon if it can't do anything to it (e.g. vivillion or scyther). I'm not saying it's amazing, but it has improved slightly in this meta imo.

Replay to show it at peak value: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/nu-387824685
 
Seeing how Leafeon was brought up rather recently, I'd like to make a case to move it up to B-. It certainly has no business rotting in C with the likes of Regice and Altaria.

There is no doubt that our grassy friend is pretty lame as a standalone offensive mon, suffering from poor coverage, weak stab, and only above average attack.

What Leafeon does bring to the table however, is huge utility with access to BP, SD, and a wide range other support moves.

Currently, I'm running this set:

Leafeon @ Leftovers
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 252 HP / 32 Def / 224 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Substitute
- Leaf Blade
- Baton Pass
- Swords Dance

Sub SD is by far Leafeon's most effective option. Leafeon with investment is surprisingly bulky and in conjunction with its pure grass typing, has the ability to set up on a large amount of the tier, especially with ground and water moves being so prevalent. In addition, Leafeon has a very nice 95 base speed, meaning baton pass recipients can safely switch in without taking damage. The EVs listed above are enough to outpace Rotom to dodge wisp, although they can be tailored according to preference (e.g. seed's gyro not breaking sub).

After an SD, Leafeon has the opportunity to pass to a whole slew of offensive mons that appreciate the attack raise, my favorites being Tauros and Rhydon, which both proceed to sweep the opposing team with a +2 boost (the latter having to RP up first).

If for some reason Leafeon is unable to BP, it's competent enough on its own. Some calcs for reference.

1v1 Hitmonchan no problem:
252+ Atk Iron Fist Hitmonchan Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 32 Def Leafeon: 146-172 (43.7 - 51.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 0 Atk Leafeon Leaf Blade vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hitmonchan: 255-301 (105.8 - 124.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

High chance to 1v1 Yama:
252+ Atk Hariyama Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 32 Def Leafeon: 159-187 (47.6 - 55.9%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Leafeon Leaf Blade vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Hariyama: 159-187 (37 - 43.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Atk Leafeon Leaf Blade vs. -1 0 HP / 4 Def Hariyama: 238-282 (55.4 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Can come in even after rocks and revenge Barb no problem:
+2 252+ Atk Barbaracle Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 32 Def Leafeon: 240-283 (71.8 - 84.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Leafeon Leaf Blade vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Barbaracle: 372-444 (130.5 - 155.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
 

Punchshroom

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Let's not get too hasty with nomming these fast Grass mons left and right here. Also toreutic why not just run max Speed on your Leafeon; it doesn't look like the Defense EVs do much of note here.

Personally I can't really envision Leafeon to be on par with most of C+. Like it's a support mon with some really nicely placed stats (good Speed, high Defense, great physical bulk) and undoubtedly the best SD Passer in the tier, but all of the dangerous / annoying mons it simply invites in just puts a damper on its effectiveness. Lone uninvested Grass STAB is an easy switch-in for numerous powerful things like Abomasnow, Magmortar, Charizard, Pyroar, Lilligant, Swellow, Scyther, Vivillon, etc. to start putting in work against you, while other mons like Garbodor, Vileplume, Xatu, and Gourgeist-XL can take advantage of you in their own ways. All this pressure from so many different kinds of mons can make it a really trying task to regain the offensive momentum back with SDPass, which is especially tricky considering some of these mons have barely any reliable switch-ins, and even less if you intend to pass the SD off to something that can take advantage of it. C Rank seems fine for it imo.
 
A+ to S

The matchup that Metal Licks has on the tier rn is incredible. 200 Defense is fucking huge for NU standards and almost any physical attacker that's not super effective against Steel/Ground gets hard walled by it. And NU is filled to the brim with Pokemon that fit that category. Not to mention that Aggron now inhabits the tier. I'd honestly say that it can be compared to Mega Steelix in RU (back when it wasn't banned from it of course). Steelix has its counters, of course, but it itself counters so many things in NU rn makes me think that it deserves to be alongside Tauros.

A+ to A

Lets be honest, is Pyroar really as good as the likes of Garbodor, Shiftry, Swellow and Samurott? Or even Archeops, which isn't even in the same rank as it? Water types have been very common lately, and, unlike Magmortar (which I previously nominated to drop until I changed my mind) it doesn't have any reliable forms of getting rid of them other than the weak 60 base power Hidden Power Grass. This douses Pyroar's mane significantly. The metagame has been even nastier to Pyroar than it has to Magmortar, and it should drop IMO.

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A+ to A Agree

Clerics are always nice to have, but other than that Mesprit just does most other things better. Mesprit has better stats, wider coverage, and Healing Wish. Musharna I guess has reliable recovery but Mesprit is still more of an offensive Psychic type while Musharna is a defensive Psychic type. And Mesprit is better as an offensive Psychic type than Musharna is as a defensive Psychic type. Did I mention that Calm Mind isn't a necessity on Mesprit?
 
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I don't really understand how Leafeon having switch ins nullifies the fact that it's still a B- mon. I already mentioned that Leafeon as an individual is sub-par, but the point of the set is to support others.

For starters, essentially all of the offensive switch ins you mentioned are weak to rocks. After taking a leaf blade, they're left at half, which isn't exactly free.

And it's not as if you can't just baton pass out on a predicted switch. If you want to be extra safe, you can always sub up first before passing. This way, you can safely bring in the appropriate switch, swinging the momentum to your side while Leafeon goes on to live another day.

Obviously, there are plenty of mons that give Leafeon trouble, but the fact Leafeon is the best SD passer in the tier, and that it can consistently perform it's role without overwhelming support is enough to warrant it a spot in B-.

I'm happy to grab a couple replays to show Leafeon in action to prove my point.
 

Punchshroom

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I don't really understand how Leafeon having switch ins nullifies the fact that it's still a B- mon. I already mentioned that Leafeon as an individual is sub-par, but the point of the set is to support others.

For starters, essentially all of the offensive switch ins you mentioned are weak to rocks. After taking a leaf blade, they're left at half, which isn't exactly free.

And it's not as if you can't just baton pass out on a predicted switch. If you want to be extra safe, you can always sub up first before passing. This way, you can safely bring in the appropriate switch, swinging the momentum to your side while Leafeon goes on to live another day.
Leafeon being a switch-in for this many offensive mons is relevant since it'd be spending a good deal more time passing Subs / dry Passing instead of passing SDs, which can reduce its overall consistency. Swellow and Pyroar even have sound moves which can make Substitute a shaky play as well. Yes, almost all of Leafeon's offensive switch-ins are weak to Stealth Rock, but if SR is not up, Leafeon really doesn't have any business attempting anything other than Sub or dry Pass when they are present, which it needs to do in order to protect itself against the faster mons and protect its recipients against the slower mons which otherwise have barely any reliable switch-ins.

Obviously, there are plenty of mons that give Leafeon trouble, but the fact Leafeon is the best SD passer in the tier, and that it can consistently perform it's role without overwhelming support is enough to warrant it a spot in B-.
If that role is purely to generate momentum then yeah Leafeon could feasibly perform that role consistently, though I hesitate to say 'without overwhelming support' since Leafeon's teammates and likely recipients need to be able to handle some of the tier's top offensive threats, which can narrow down teambuilding structures. In terms of passing SD itself, there are enough relevant threats in the tier that can deny / deter Leafeon from doing so for a good portion of the match on a fairly consistent basis as well. As a compromise, I won't object to see it in C+, but B- kind of pushes it imo.
 

Luck O' the Irish

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A+ to S

The matchup that Metal Licks has on the tier rn is incredible. 200 Defense is fucking huge for NU standards and almost any physical attacker that's not super effective against Steel/Ground gets hard walled by it. And NU is filled to the brim with Pokemon that fit that category. Not to mention that Aggron now inhabits the tier. I'd honestly say that it can be compared to Mega Steelix in RU (back when it wasn't banned from it of course). Steelix has its counters, of course, but it itself counters so many things in NU rn makes me think that it deserves to be alongside Tauros.

A+ to A

Lets be honest, is Pyroar really as good as the likes of Garbodor, Shiftry, Swellow and Samurott? Or even Archeops, which isn't even in the same rank as it? Water types have been very common lately, and, unlike Magmortar (which I previously nominated to drop until I changed my mind) it doesn't have any reliable forms of getting rid of them other than the weak 60 base power Hidden Power Grass. This douses Pyroar's mane significantly. The metagame has been even nastier to Pyroar than it has to Magmortar, and it should drop IMO.

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A+ to A Agree

Clerics are always nice to have, but other than that Mesprit just does most other things better. Mesprit has better stats, wider coverage, and Healing Wish. Musharna I guess has reliable recovery but Mesprit is still more of an offensive Psychic type while Musharna is a defensive Psychic type. And Mesprit is better as an offensive Psychic type than Musharna is as a defensive Psychic type. Did I mention that Calm Mind isn't a necessity on Mesprit?
I'm kinda eh on Pyroar to A since I think you're really underselling its ability to beat water types just with its secondary stab (hyper voice is more powerful than hp grass against most mons) and how taunt pyroar fucks a ton of defensive builds, although I do have to admit it's not as good as it was during sceptile meta.

However, I am convinced that steelix is not an s rank mon. It's nowhere near the "mega steelix in ru" you make it out to be since it's main set struggles walling a lot of top threats that it wants to wall. tauros and archeops only need a tiny bit of prior damage before they 2hko steelix with fire blast and earth power, respectively, and swellow just needs to get a heat wave off and lix loses (even if you switch out to save lix you get 2hkod by boomburst from there anyway). then you have all the psychic types that have adapted to steelix- specsprit does not care about lix switchins, xatu wins if it's helmet since heavy slam just misses on the 2hko (which it can do more comfortably in this meta thanks to no sawk or gurdurr), and then you'll notice that the only psychic type that lix comfortably beats is no longer as effective, which you mentioned.

I think steelix was arguably s-rank when it first dropped but the metagame has adapted to beat it-- tauros always runs fire blast now, archeops runs earth power, sub rotom and mantine started getting usage in the past 6 months because of their ability to irritate the hell out of steelix balance teams, specs mesprit now exists, special skuntank is a lot more common now, a lot of garbodor run focus blast > drain punch, the list goes on. I guess you could argue that it has versatility thru set variation (sheer force special) that beats a lot of its counters for the main set but the reason you don't see it very often is because it isn't as consistent and as a result it's more of a lure than a main standalone set. The usage stats from january to may tell a pretty big tale- steelix goes from nearly 30% usage to 17% and I think a big part of that is because people realized you can't just slap on steelix onto every team and expect it to be better- there are big enough downsides to running it that mean it needs support or there will be better options based on the team, which is more indicative of an A rank mon. Steelix is good and a very influential mon in the meta don't get me wrong but A+ is the highest it deserves.
 

Jisoo

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ok I talked this over in NU with bolts and rapture and TTFTW and I think Frillish really does deserve a re-nom.
Frillish D -> C-
I'm not gonna rehash everything I said in my previous post, being that Frillish counters Samurott, Tauros, Hitmonchan, and Poliwrath. Frillish's main niche in NU is being one of the few counters to Tauros. It having a great ability in water absorb and having perfect defensive synergy with megadino (dino takes the knock off's that frillish hates, as well as dark type moves and ghost type moves, and frillish takes the steel, poison, and fighting weakness that Audino has before it megas, and honestly there has been a decrease of knock off users that actually threaten frillish, the only one really being hariyama and primeape. ZHB does max of 33% while Frillish can easily switch in and will-o/scald it, with water absorb and an amazing typing it restricts samurott to only megahorn, which does a pitiful 16 max, it restricts hitmonchan to ice punch while spinblocking it perfectly, and it shuts down both poliwrath sets, while whittling it down with will-o and it will most likely not stay in. Not to mention it has great utility in taunt, something that lanturn and poliwrath do not have, recover, one of the only reliable moves in the game that lets it stay alive, one of the best defensive typings, being immune to two types and resistant to 6 common types, and the general utility and defensive presence that it brings to the table on stall and balance teams.

252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Frillish: 88-105 (28 - 33.4%) -- 0.1% chance to 3HKO <- nice .1 chance
0 SpA Frillish Scald vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Tauros: 91-108 (31.2 - 37.1%) -- 74.7% chance to 3HKO

252+ Atk Samurott Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Frillish: 43-51 (13.6 - 16.2%) -- possible 7HKO

i wont bother with the others because that damage is literally nonexistent

I WILL ADD REPLAYS LATER
 
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Rapture

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ok I talked this over in NU with bolts and rapture and TTFTW and I think Frillish really does deserve a re-nom.
Frillish D -> C-
I'm not gonna rehash everything I said in my previous post, being that Frillish counters Samurott, Tauros, Hitmonchan, and Poliwrath. Frillish's main niche in NU is being one of the few counters to Tauros. It having a great ability in water absorb and having perfect defensive synergy with megadino (dino takes the knock off's that frillish hates, as well as dark type moves and ghost type moves, and frillish takes the steel, poison, and fighting weakness that Audino has before it megas, and honestly there has been a decrease of knock off users that actually threaten frillish, the only one really being hariyama and primeape. ZHB does max of 33% while Frillish can easily switch in and will-o/scald it, with water absorb and an amazing typing it restricts samurott to only megahorn, which does a pitiful 16 max, it restricts hitmonchan to ice punch while spinblocking it perfectly, and it shuts down both poliwrath sets, while whittling it down with will-o and it will most likely not stay in. Not to mention it has great utility in taunt, something that lanturn and poliwrath do not have, recover, one of the only reliable moves in the game that lets it stay alive, one of the best defensive typings, being immune to two types and resistant to 6 common types, and the general utility and defensive presence that it brings to the table on stall and balance teams.

252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Frillish: 88-105 (28 - 33.4%) -- 0.1% chance to 3HKO <- nice .1 chance
0 SpA Frillish Scald vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Tauros: 91-108 (31.2 - 37.1%) -- 74.7% chance to 3HKO

252+ Atk Samurott Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Frillish: 43-51 (13.6 - 16.2%) -- possible 7HKO

i wont bother with the others because that damage is literally nonexistent

I WILL ADD REPLAYS LATER
Ok now that you've expanded on your reasoning, I guess my question to you is why wouldn't I just use something like gastrodon? It handles everything you mentioned in your first sentence only really struggling more versus Tauros in some situations (like if it crits rock climb). Samurott gets clear smoged should it set up, and Hitmonchan and Pilowrath both fail to 2hko assuming a spread of max defense and hp. Storm Drain is just as useful as an ability, and Frillish's advantages like access to taunt and will-o-wisp don't seem as useful when you consider that frillish is pretty slow to be dedicating a moveslot to taunt and will-o-wisp is somewhat superfluous when most water types use scald. I get that you're not asking for a huge rise in viability here, but with everything considered I'm still sure anything frillish can do over other water types is not C- rank worthy. Still link some replays though, I'm sure people would like to see it in action :o

Also steelix is not S rank worthy lol agree with everything irish said.
 

erisia

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I liked Frillish a lot when I used it on my stall team a few months ago, it still has that spinblocker niche vs Gastrodon so it could definitely be the better pick for some teams. Scald does basically no damage so I'm not sure whether I'd just run something like Wisp / Recover / Toxic / Night Shade but then again hitting Tauros is nice. You could run it for Rhydon too I guess. I wouldn't be opposed to a rise to C- as Frillish isn't a gimmick so much as a decently solid defensive spinblocker that fits certain teams well.

Also I think you meant to move Rotom-Fan down to B rank...
 
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Shadestep

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Regirock: B- --> B_
I was kind-of confused when I saw Regirock was still in B-. It's a very good Pokemon that has a lot going for it. Very good Defense, its SDef is nothing to laugh at either. It gets some really cool moves too, that make it harder to deal with, like Thunder Wave and Counter. It's outclassed by Rhydon in a lot of ways, but the pure Rock-typing makes it less exploitable, as HP Grass doesn't do that much from things like Pyroar or Magmortar. It can also beat Fighting-types like Hitmonchan via Counter (Drain Punch does around 55%, Counter will OHKO it back), and can run some cool sets like Custap Berry + Explosion to catch things that try to revenge it at low health off guard with a boom. It's a very viable Pokemon and while it does have some very annoying flaws over Rhydon like not being immune to Volt Switch, and not having either Megahorn or Swords Dance to break through bulkier teams, it's still a solid pick on teams that need SR, a Normal-resist, and also some other tools like thunder wave as being mentioned before.
 
Was there ever any discussion / follow up on the Simisage from unranked to C+ nomination by erisia?

He explained it super well and honestly I have nothing to add to it beyond that but I can back it up with close to 100 games using it with the team that was worked on in the Bazaar thread. It does have a niche as a fast offensive pure grass type which doesn't suffer from the same problems other grass types that try to be offensive have.

It has just enough offensive capabilities (power, coverage, speed and versatility) to appropriately fit into the C+ ranking.
 

Jisoo

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Ok now that you've expanded on your reasoning, I guess my question to you is why wouldn't I just use something like gastrodon? It handles everything you mentioned in your first sentence only really struggling more versus Tauros in some situations (like if it crits rock climb). Samurott gets clear smoged should it set up, and Hitmonchan and Pilowrath both fail to 2hko assuming a spread of max defense and hp. Storm Drain is just as useful as an ability, and Frillish's advantages like access to taunt and will-o-wisp don't seem as useful when you consider that frillish is pretty slow to be dedicating a moveslot to taunt and will-o-wisp is somewhat superfluous when most water types use scald. I get that you're not asking for a huge rise in viability here, but with everything considered I'm still sure anything frillish can do over other water types is not C- rank worthy. Still link some replays though, I'm sure people would like to see it in action :o
okay, I did some research earlier and there are a few major and minor things that would make me want to use frillish over gastrodon IN SOME CASES
  1. A minor advantage, but Frillish having one more base speed point than Gastrodon allows Frillish to always tie 0 speed Rhydon
  2. Even though taunt isn't that useful, it allows it to taunt and shut down some important things, such as Musharna, Ferroseed (which usually always switches in on Gastrodon), Gastrodon, and Steelix.
  3. One of the main reasons its used is the fantastic typing which allows it to spinblock and is immune to normal, one of the most prominent types in the tier
  4. It counters 4 really important threats in one slot, and with access to so much utility it has at least one Advantage over every water type in the tier
 

Punchshroom

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You know I can't believe you say you did your research about Frillish in terms of the mons it counters (Samurott, Tauros, Hitmonchan, Primeape, Poliwrath??) and not mention some of the big threats it can fend off, like Barbaracle, Pyroar, and SpA Charizard. Fending off those two Fire-types in particular is helpful since Gastrodon, and indeed all but a handful of mons, cannot do so. I won't be opposed to C- either.

With that said, competition with Gastrodon and Gourgeist-XL is pretty fierce, as they can handle a significant majority of what Frillish wants to counter. Frillish also suffers from severely diminished offensive presence, as its best method of damage output usually involves status and Night Shade (relying on a fixed damage attack for damage is never a good sign of your offensive presence), plus it has to keep a sharp eye on its health due to its lack of Leftovers, especially if hazards are present. These two drawbacks make Frillish rather easy to take advantage of.

Speaking of a mon that competes with Gastrodon...

I feel like Cradily has overstayed its welcome in C+. Gastrodon has taken Cradily's more notable niche in stopping the tier's Water-types, as not only does Gastro stop them more effectively / safely (not at risk of Ice Beam damage rolls / freezes or Kabutops's +2 / crit Stone Edge, can't be pivoted out of Lanturn's Volt Switch, not getting skewered by SD Samurott's Megahorn), but Gastrodon is much less vulnerable and more capable at fending for itself. This leaves Cradily's remaining niche as a Normal resist / Stealth Rocker with recovery. However, both those niches can be put into question by themselves. While Cradily can usually safely fend off Kangaskhan and Swellow, Iron Tail Tauros pretty much blows Cradily away, and it's not like the other Normal resists that are not as vulnerable to Iron Tail fold to Kanga and Swellow either. Meanwhile, SR + recovery is nice but is usually seen as an afterthought, and even then, Miltank could offer competition in that department while possessing more supportive options overall, having more diversity, and being vulnerable to fewer offensive threats.

To be honest, Cradily's Rock STAB alone reduces the amount of would-be offensive checks (Fire-, Ice-, & Bug-types), while also increasing the number of mons it can blanket-check / counter. However, Cradily suffers from two extremely notable flaws. The first is that it can barely do anything to mons that aren't threatened by Toxic or its STABs, as well as mons that can take it down quickly enough for Toxic to be a minor annoyance at worst. These usually include things like Poison-types, Steel-types, Fighting-types, and basically any setup sweeper that isn't hit for 4x SE damage; this is already a somewhat inherent problem when ur wall is taken advantage of by more mons than the amount of mons it claims to reliably wall. The other big flaw is that Cradily is used more as a blanket check to stuff rather than as a dedicated counter, due to the minimal amount of resists it has; this means that Cradily is often subject to narrowly avoiding 2HKOes from various SE coverage moves / unresisted STAB attacks, so Cradily detests being worn down even the slightest, despite what its bulk + reliable recovery may suggest. Simple offensive pressure (and sometimes even just Stealth Rock damage) can be enough to overwhelm Cradily as it is often be forced to decide between healing or maintaining any semblance of offensive presence, and of course status ailments greatly impede Cradily's job as well. Between the increased competition and its existing flaws, I feel Cradily isn't worthy to remain in C+ anymore.

------Edit:--------------------------------------------------------------
Time to put the nail into this mon's coffin:


What reason even is there to use Muk these days? Things have gotten worse and worse for it as the days go by, and the amount of competition and answers to this have not gone down at all.

Right off the bat, this mon is pretty badly outclassed by offensive Garbodor. Offensive Garbo has a better Speed tier which gives it more flexibility and less need to predict, Seed Bomb which 2HKOes Omastar, Rhydon, and most importantly Gastrodon in one fell swoop, and consistent utility in Spikes + Aftermath so Garbodor doesn't have to do major damage or even remain healthy to contribute. Muk's only apparent benefits over Garbo would be Poison Touch and having Focus Punch, but Poison Touch only activates from Muk's weaker moves for only a 20% chance, while Focus Punch is a high-risk, medium-to-high reward moves as it requires stellar prediction but doesn't manage to always OHKO its primary targets, so Muk gets forced out and still can't safely throw out a Gunk Shot later. If one wants to bring up Muk's superior special bulk in terms of checking certain threats, not only is Garbodor's bulk still comparable, but Skuntank practically checks everything Muk wants to and more.

Then we have the newcomers. Already talked about Gastrodon and how it's one of the hardest Muk counters by far, and is a fairly prevelant mon at that. And then we have Aggron, which is a definite competitor, if not usurper, for a Mega Audino answer that does utterly massive damage to everything, and threatens a lot more slower Pokemon overall. While Muk is not as vulnerable to special attacks, particularly offensive Mega Audino, the other aforementioned Poison-types can still answer Mega Audino while contributing far more against offense than Muk ever will.

Oh, you want to talk about Curse Muk? Alright, we'll talk about Curse Muk: it's worse than Curse Sliggoo, who only really demands Mega Audino be taken out of the picture, while Muk wants Ground-types, Steel-types, and a lot more special attackers out of the way before it can work, and has far less utility than Sliggoo when not boosting. Even Vigoroth isn't near as demanding or, you know, Arbok.

Muk just isn't specialized or even good enough to be in C Rank; it has rather low utility for a Poison-type (and especially poor utility for a mon as slow as it is), it's not even difficult to prepare for defensively compared to the other powerhouse mons that reside in C or even C-, and isn't a very respectable wincon either. Muk should definitely drop in Rank to C-, or preferably even D / unranked :/
 
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erisia

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THIS DROPPED TO B RANK. Update pls. ^_^

A > A-: I'm bringing up Floatzel for discussion again because it actually came very close to being dropped before and I don't know why that wasn't mentioned in Evan's post. Responding to Shadestep's post, Taunt providing coverage against hazard leads is cool, but functionally Archeops can do this just as well while boasting higher overall power and not relying on an inaccurate move to deal damage. I know I'm an accuracy fiend but Floatzel's poor bulk means that the 80% accuracy Hydro Pump missing against an offensive Pokémon is basically a death sentence, unlike say, Tauros, where it actually has the Defense stat to take a physical attack if it misses an 85% accurate Rock Climb. Baton Pass is also very interesting (one of my favourite teams is built around it) but I don't think it justifies A rank over stuff like Tauros and Archeops. Still a great offense mon but I feel A rank is really overselling it atm.

B > B-: As adorable as Smeargle is, its main niche is Sticky Web and Malamar / Archeops / Rotom / Swellow are all huge threats in this tier that benefit from / are immune to it. This playstyle is fun but I don't think it's consistent enough for a mon that 100% relies on it to warrant B rank. Show me some other sets that work consistently and I'll change my mind but outside of Lv1 Endeavor gimmicks I've not seen anything else on ladder, and this tier is pretty prepared for Smeargle in general between Magmortar, Shiftry, and Xatu (which basically forces it to run Skill Swap over a more useful move unless you have Skuntank support).

C > Unranked: When is the last time anyone has used this Pokémon effectively? ADV? I mean sure, Thick Club Bonemerang is strong but not a huge amount more than LO Golurk's Earthquake, and Golurk actually contributes things other than a strong STAB attack, such as Stealth Rock, Ghost-typing, better overall bulk, and a non-garbage Speed tier. Marowak is also completely crippled by any faster Pokémon with Knock Off (i.e. all of them) to the point where it becomes setup fodder, arguably a fate worse than death. Marowak also has less defensive value than most Ground-types due to its low SpD stat, lack of extra typing for resistances, and a worse Speed tier than Sandslash.

C > C+: I don't know why this Pokémon dropped so far, as it's one of the best Memento users around and has a few good niches over Mismagius such as its different set of resistances, Sleep Powder + 110 Base Speed (which crucially outspeeds Pyroar and ties with Tauros/Archeops), Infiltrator, and a few neat options like Encore and U-turn. Mismagius is probably the more consistent choice for sweeper cores but certain teams can find Jumpluff's attributes more useful. The Swords Dance set also hasn't gotten any worse with Gastrodon replacing Quagsire.

Also I agree with Muk down to C-, Cradily down to C, and Regirock up to B.
 
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A > A-:[...] but I don't think it justifies A rank over stuff like Tauros and Archeops. Still a great offense mon but I feel A rank is really overselling it atm.
Just a quick question erisia, because I don't really understand the Floatzel drop. The mons you are comparing it to, Tauros and Archeops, are both accurately higher ranked as is, respectively in S and A+. You said it doesn't deserve A rank over stuff like Tauros and Archeops, but it doesn't get it over them in the first place.
 
A to A- Disagree

Water types are a very dominant force right now, and Floatzel is part of the Water type group. Archeops does do the whole Taunt thing better than Floatzel, but if only Floatzel was a subrank below Archeops! And Hydro Pump still hits most of the time, and besides, it still has better accuracy than Focus Blast. There's also hardly any difference between 80% accuracy and 85% accuracy and Tauros is two subranks above Floatzel anyway. Floatzel is still as good as it was before and should stay in A rank.

C to C- Agree

Muk is definitely tied with Sandslash for the worst Pokemon in NU that's in it.

How bad has Muk gotten lately?

  1. It's outclassed. Garbodor and Weezing are far better options to use over Muk. Garbodor can set up Spikes and Toxic Spikes and it has a combo of Aftermath + Rocky Helmet which allows it to get more consistent damage across the opponent's team, and Weezing can spread status with Will-o-Wisp and its only weakness is a type that's weak to Pursuit. Oh and there's also Skuntank.
  2. The metagame has been unkind to it. Not only has Steelix rose in usage, but Aggron and Gastrodon now inhabit the tier as well, giving Muk 2 more brick walls to have to struggle to weave around.
So Muk sucks ass, drop it to C-
 

cyanize

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to B/B+

I'm actually a bit surprised that this is in B-. It's easily one of the best ice-type wallbreakers in NU, and pairs extremely well with some of the tier's best offensive mons (Offensive waters appreciate it breaking other waters, Pyroar, Magmortar, and other ice-types like that it can beat Hariyama, etc.) It sports almost-flawless coverage and very good power, alongside good uninvested bulk and a bit of set versatility to boot. There are only 6 mons from B- rank and up (SDef MegaDino, SDef Mesprit, Aurorus, Aggron, Grumpig, and Regirock) that can reliably switch into this thing, which is comparable to the threat level of Charizard, Pyroar, Kabutops, and other threatening A rank mons, and I think that warrants a rise. However, it has a few crippling flaws, first and foremost being a 4x weakness to SR which makes it rather difficult to build with. It also isn't the fastest thing out there (though it is the second fastest Ice-type in the tier behind Cryo) and doesn't have the best defensive typing, meaning its solid natural bulk somewhat goes to waste. Despite its flaws, I believe that it a solid mon that is very deserving of being on the same level as mons such as Carracosta, Torterra, and Pinsir.

to A-

This mon's ubiquity and presence in the metagame itself is worthy of a rise imo, but if you need more evidence then there is plenty more to be had.

Threat Level: Does this even need to be expanded on? I'm sure we're all aware by now of how this thing utterly breaks teams by clicking only one move, and pretty much has its other moves as filler. Hell, CB Head Smash is so ridiculous I wouldn't be surprised if someone played games with only Head Smash and still got kills.
Splashability: Despite its low Speed and 4x weakness to two very common attacking types, Aggron is actually pretty easy to fit on balance, bulky offense, and even some offensive teams. Its weaknesses have no end to checks in this tier (Xatu, Scyther, Weezing, Mesprit, Mega Audino, and Rotom come to mind immediately) and it works well with quite a few other mons in the tier, particularly ones that use U-turn or Volt Switch. It also has a pretty useful defensive typing outside of those huge weaknesses, being a soft check to things like Mesprit, Focus Blast-less Jynx, Swellow, Mega Audino, Musharna, and Skuntank.
Consistency/Reliability: Aggron gets a KO pretty much every game. It's insanely difficult to not only have multiple checks to this thing that don't stack weaknesses, but reliably predict when it will click its STAB or whatever coverage move it's using to preserve your checks to its STAB.
Effect on the Meta: Before Aggron dropped, having a Rock resist was very nice since it meant you didn't lose to DDance/RP Rhydon, but you could get away with having something that could take an EQ or a Stone Edge and then revenge it or just slapping a Claydol on your Balance team to take care of both it and be a spinner at the same time. Now, on a balance team you have to have two okay rock resists/one really good one AND something to take a coverage move or you just kinda lose to this. Luckily, there are a few mons that do this well, but the rise in usage of those mons speaks for itself (Poliwrath, Torterra, and Sandslash for example have much higher usage in May than they did in April, and I doubt that's just spontaneous usage.)

And last but definitely not least, this mon is an almost exact physical counterpart to Aurorus who is in A-. While Aurorus may have the advantage by being a special attacker and as such is not susceptible to burns, Aggron has arguably less switchins and is stronger neutrally (150 BP STAB off of 100 base attack vs 117 BP STAB off of 99 base spatk), stronger coverage moves as well as having a better defensive typing. All in all, I don't think there should be a letter space between the two.
 

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