Other ORAS Metagame Discussion

[EternalSnowman]

Actually a big AV users that many people forget about is Tangrowth. It's ridiculous physical bulk access to Giga Drain and Regenerator help its sustain while AV patches up its subpar Special Defense. It also gets good offensive utility moves like Knock Off and Infestation while having a variety of offensive moves like Leaf Storm, Earthquake, Rock Slide, Sludge Bomb, and Focus Blast. With its base 100/110 mixed offenses and bulk it becomes a huge threat and it can definitely put dents in opposing teams forming a great defensive FWG core with Heatran and Vaporeon or just Heatran.

 

[helladankmaymays]

Actually a big AV users that many people forget about is Tangrowth. It's ridiculous physical bulk access to Giga Drain and Regenerator help its sustain while AV patches up its subpar Special Defense. It also gets good offensive utility moves like Knock Off and Infestation while having a variety of offensive moves like Leaf Storm, Earthquake, Rock Slide, Sludge Bomb, and Focus Blast. With its base 100/110 mixed offenses and bulk it becomes a huge threat and it can definitely put dents in opposing teams forming a great defensive FWG core with Heatran and Vaporeon or just Heatran.

AV Tangrowth could be countered by Toxic damage and also Knock Off can destroy the Tangrowth and then switching to a poison type like Venusaur then use Sludge Bomb. Which does 62-73% making it a 2HKO

 

[Random Passerby]

AV Tangrowth could be countered by Toxic damage and also Knock Off can destroy the Tangrowth and then switching to a poison type like Venusaur then use Sludge Bomb. Which does 62-73% making it a 2HKO

Why would a Tangrowth want to carelessly switch into Toxic? Oh, and even if it gets Toxic-ed, it is not going down easily due to Regenerator. Furthermore, what is a Tangrowth doing staying in against Venusaur?

 

[pika pal]

AV Tangrowth could be countered by Toxic damage and also Knock Off can destroy the Tangrowth and then switching to a poison type like Venusaur then use Sludge Bomb. Which does 62-73% making it a 2HKO

For all that to happen requires a significant amount of careless play on the Tangrowth user's part.

- Toxic is a pain, but Tangrowth is played as Pivot, meaning Regenerator is going to neutralize a lot of its passive damage. Toxic actually is the least damaging status over the course of 2 turns, which Tangrowth doesn't tend to be in for longer than anyway.

- If Tangrowth is depending that heavily on Knock Off, it's not going to be switching into common users of the move like Bisharp, not to mention the things Tangrowth is meant to stop tend to be different from KO carriers anyway

- Tangrowth has no business staying in on Venusaur, so Venusaur is hitting whatever switched in in Tangrowth's place with that Sludge Bomb, like Heatran.

And that's all assuming Tangrowth is the one who has to play reactively. What if I bring in my Dragalge on that attempted Toxic? I get a free layer of Toxic Spikes and the status user is being forced out. If I bring in my Mega on that Knock Off, I might just have a free turn for Altaria, Diancie, Sableye, Scizor, or Gyarados. If I switch a Steel type into Venusaur's attempted Sludge Bomb, then Venusaur is back on the defensive and I again have a good turn.

You need to consider what the logical plays would be for both players in that situation. Tangrowth is meant to be a bulky pivot/tank, so it's not going to just sit there and get into a situation where it'll get itself killed..

 

[KillSeven]

I want to talk quickly about Kyurem and Kyurem-B. Perhaps someone can clear this up for me.

Basically.. my friend just told me that he would be using Kyurem on an OU team. I quickly questioned "Why Kyurem over Kyurem-B?" As Kyurem-B has overall better bulk, access to teravolt, a substantially higher Attack stat while only sacrificing a slight loss in SpA (120 compared to Kyurem's 130... which again in my opinion does not matter too much especially because of terravolt.)

His reasoning: Kyurem is a "defensive wall." (Yes, his words exactly.) I literally can not wrap my head around the idea of an Ice/Dragon type Pokemon being "defensive" especially when the weaknesses Kyurem has (Fairy, Steel, Rock, Fighting, Dragon..) are all so offensively common in the current metagame. Perhaps fighting isn't as prevalent as it was in Generation 5, but it is still an amazing offensive type that is still very present in our metagame in the form of common Pokemon such as Keldeo.

His second point: He also brought up that Kyurem's ability, Pressure could allow him to stall out Draco Meteors from speedy Dragons and gyro balls from ferrothorn.. Again this is considering the fact SR isn't set up and you're already behind a substitute.

Am I missing something? I thought the main point of Kyurem was to kill things and not stall them out. Is there an actual legitimate reason to use Kyurem over Kyurem-B? I would like to know, because the arguments presented to me thus far are weak overall.

 

[TFL]

Hi KillSeven. Normal Kyurem has a niche over Kyurem-B in its SubRoost set. It uses both Ice Beam and Earth Power, so Kyube's much higher Attack stat is moot. Kyurem actually has a higher SpA stat than Kyube, too. You'd want to use Kyurem with Toxic Spikes so it has a much easier time stalling the opponent's team for damage and weakening it. Its ability, Pressure, is nice because it's more useful (assuming SubRoost) than Kyube's Teravolt since it excels vs slower teams, like Balance and some Stalls, where it can make use of it by stalling out Gyro Ball and some other attacks like Chansey's S-toss. It's a pretty niche mon but holds something over Kyube on select teams. It's more of a Stall/Balance Breaker than a Wall Breaker.

 

[thesecondbest]

AV Tyranitar and Excadrill are just plain awful.

no..... av tar is a savage, it's bulkier than goodra and hits about as hard
252+ SpA Togekiss Dazzling Gleam vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Assault Vest Tyranitar in Sand: 120-144 (29.7 - 35.7%) -- 25.8% chance to 3HKO
252+ SpA Togekiss Dazzling Gleam vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Goodra: 128-152 (33.5 - 39.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Goodra Draco Meteor vs. 80 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 207-244 (57.3 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Goodra Dragon Pulse vs. 80 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 135-160 (37.3 - 44.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 80 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 184-217 (50.9 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery

Goodra may have better coverage but never sleep on ttar.

And av exca is pbad, but thats only cuz so many things counter it(rotom, lando, gliscor etc). It's decently bulky

 

[KillSeven]

Hi KillSeven. Normal Kyurem has a niche over Kyurem-B in its SubRoost set. It uses both Ice Beam and Earth Power, so Kyube's much higher Attack stat is moot. Kyurem actually has a higher SpA stat than Kyube, too. You'd want to use Kyurem with Toxic Spikes so it has a much easier time stalling the opponent's team for damage and weakening it. Its ability, Pressure, is nice because it's more useful (assuming SubRoost) than Kyube's Teravolt since it excels vs slower teams, like Balance and some Stalls, where it can make use of it by stalling out Gyro Ball and some other attacks like Chansey's S-toss. It's a pretty niche mon but holds something over Kyube on select teams. It's more of a Stall/Balance Breaker than a Wall Breaker.

Thank you for clearing some of that up. Very valid points that I never thought of myself. I will still never understand how Kyurem can be seen or used as a "defensive wall" but I can understand it's niche a little better now.

 

[Agent Gibbs]

Assault Vest Tyranitar is mediocre because some of the biggest perks of bulky Tyranitar include being a sturdy Stealth Rock setter and being able to support Excadrill by setting up Sandstorm for several turns with the Smooth Rock. Both of these are obviously incompatible with the Assault Vest. AV Excadrill is bad for a similar reason. It's not so much that it's easily countered, because most of those things that counter it give the standard offensive set a hard time as well. It's moreso the fact that it can no longer set Stealth Rock for its team or use Mold Breaker Toxic to cripple Mega Sableye and eventually get past an otherwise dangerous spinblocker.

One of the main requirements for a decent Assault Vest user is that the Pokemon in question doesn't give up many important status moves, and Stealth Rock just happens to be perhaps the single most important move in the game, so giving up just Stealth Rock alone is reason enough for concern.

 

[KillSeven]

Assault Vest Tyranitar is mediocre because some of the biggest perks of bulky Tyranitar include being a sturdy Stealth Rock setter and being able to support Excadrill by setting up Sandstorm for several turns with the Smooth Rock. Both of these are obviously incompatible with the Assault Vest. AV Excadrill is bad for a similar reason. It's not so much that it's easily countered, because most of those things that counter it give the standard offensive set a hard time as well. It's moreso the fact that it can no longer set Stealth Rock for its team or use Mold Breaker Toxic to cripple Mega Sableye and eventually get past an otherwise dangerous spinblocker.

One of the main requirements for a decent Assault Vest user is that the Pokemon in question doesn't give up many important status moves, and Stealth Rock just happens to be perhaps the single most important move in the game, so giving up just Stealth Rock alone is reason enough for concern.

I strongly agree with the first half of your statement. Tyranitar really enjoys setting up SR and supporting Excadrill with Smooth Rock more than it likes sponging a couple more hits. It is the second half your statement that confuses me.

I do agree with the concept. I think AV undersells Excadrill's potential as well. However, I'm not exactly sure why you would ever go head to head with Mega Sableye even if you have Toxic since Sableye will simply burn you after you've used it. I don't think the risk is worth the reward, especially when other Pokemon such as clefable, altaria, (great partners for excarill) deal with Mega Sableye so well. If you had mentioned a Pokemon such as Espeon, I could understand how Excadrill could completely benefit from setting up SR or using Toxic against it.

 

[Agent Gibbs]

Bulky Excadrill is a spinner, and as with any other spinner, it needs to be able to get past the top spinblockers, Mega Sableye included. You don't necessarily try to go toe to toe with it, so much as you hit it on the switch as it tries to block your Rapid Spin, which makes it far easier to wear down. Toxic has other uses, though. Aside from Mega Sableye, it also cripples bulky Grounds and such that wall Excadrill harder than usual due to its minimal Atk investment.

 

[teamsnickers]

Lets discuss Good antimeta megas!!
IMo mega ampharos is the best with its agility set since no one prepares for it its also very powerful with its 165 special attack

 

[Norne]

Lets discuss Good antimeta megas!!
IMo mega ampharos is the best with its agility set since no one prepares for it its also very powerful with its 165 special attack

Stall Aero and protect Alakazam still do the trick for me on some teams as an answer to HO, and balance. But if anything balance MSableye is the one that takes the cake with its knock off set.

 

[teamsnickers]

Stall Aero and protect Alakazam still do the trick for me on some teams as an answer to HO, and balance. But if anything balance MSableye is the one that takes the cake with its knock off set.

doesnt bisharp counter both thou?

 

[pika pal]

doesnt bisharp counter both thou?

Alakazam at least tends to carry Focus Blast, so Bisharp can't switch into it, though I'm not familiar Stall Aero's set.

A mon I find surprisingly anti-Meta right now feels like Mega Scizor. He's bulky enough to counter a lot of rather prominent offensive mons (non-FB Altaria, Metagross, Bisharp) without being so passive as to give Stall free turns to wear the team down. It's also just a very versatile and adaptive Pokemon.

 

[SketchUp]

Nothing much has changed in the past month looking at the usage stats but there are a few things to look at:

OU 1825
1 | Garchomp | 27.52205%

So Garchomp was #7 in february and he already made huge jumps before. Garchomp's most used set is Rocky Helmet again with 71%. Especially with Landorus-I rising in usage (#31 to #16) and with Garchomp being a better rocks setter than Landorus-T in many situations, it isn't really a surprise Landorus-T isn't #1 anymore. Other usage statistics lower on the ladder still have Landorus-T on #1 but with lower percentages than before.

As for pokemon that may drop to UU or go OU by usage
45 | Tornadus-Therian | 4.66739%
44 | Mew | 4.90389%

52 | Mandibuzz | 3.29782%
53 | Mamoswine | 3.26473%
63 | Gallade | 2.45065%

Doesn't really matter because we can use these pokemon anways, but it shows the metagame trend a bit.

Despite the huge usage of Garchomp on the 1825 stats, the other statistics show that the metagame became more bulky offensive instead of balanced. As you can see below offensive threats like Bisharp and Sand Rush Excadrill all grew in usage while pokemon often found on balanced such as Celebi, Clefable and Gliscor dropped in usage. Especially bulky offensive threats like Scizor, Manaphy and Starmie. Balanced is still the most dominant playstyle (usage stats of pokemon like Hippowdon or Tornadus-T didn't drop) but offense, and especially bulky offense, is being used more over time.

17.6% -> 21.9%

7.3% -> 11.2%

8.7% -> 11.9%
-----------

17.1% -> 18.4%

3.9% -> 10.2%

10.3% -> 14.5%
-----------

17.5% -> 10.4%

9.2% -> 7.4%
-----------
Also this is what we have learnt from the 3 day Giratina-O suspect:
1 | Giratina-Origin | 76.53769%
'not overcentralizing at all'

 

[Colonial]

Nothing much has changed in the past month looking at the usage stats but there are a few things to look at:

OU 1825
1 | Garchomp | 27.52205%

So Garchomp was #7 in february and he already made huge jumps before. Garchomp's most used set is Rocky Helmet again with 71%. Especially with Landorus-I rising in usage (#31 to #16) and with Garchomp being a better rocks setter than Landorus-T in many situations, it isn't really a surprise Landorus-T isn't #1 anymore. Other usage statistics lower on the ladder still have Landorus-T on #1 but with lower percentages than before.

As for pokemon that may drop to UU or go OU by usage
45 | Tornadus-Therian | 4.66739%
44 | Mew | 4.90389%

52 | Mandibuzz | 3.29782%
53 | Mamoswine | 3.26473%
63 | Gallade | 2.45065%

Doesn't really matter because we can use these pokemon anways, but it shows the metagame trend a bit.

Despite the huge usage of Garchomp on the 1825 stats, the other statistics show that the metagame became more bulky offensive instead of balanced. As you can see below offensive threats like Bisharp and Sand Rush Excadrill all grew in usage while pokemon often found on balanced such as Celebi, Clefable and Gliscor dropped in usage. Especially bulky offensive threats like Scizor, Manaphy and Starmie. Balanced is still the most dominant playstyle (usage stats of pokemon like Hippowdon or Tornadus-T didn't drop) but offense, and especially bulky offense, is being used more over time.

17.6% -> 21.9%

7.3% -> 11.2%

8.7% -> 11.9%
-----------

17.1% -> 18.4%

3.9% -> 10.2%

10.3% -> 14.5%
-----------

17.5% -> 10.4%

9.2% -> 7.4%
-----------
Also this is what we have learnt from the 3 day Giratina-O suspect:
1 | Giratina-Origin | 76.53769%
'not overcentralizing at all'

Thanks for the usage analysis. It's interesting seeing the metagame change, especially to this degree.

On your final point about Gira-O, it's worth noting that everyone on that ladder was there specifically to use Gira-O, and as such it would be natural for it to have massive usage. It was an April Fools joke for a reason, but it's always a good idea to keep things in perspective.

 

[teamsnickers]

Also this is what we have learnt from the 3 day Giratina-O suspect:
1 | Giratina-Origin | 76.53769%
'not overcentralizing at all'

great post BUT to the whole not over centralizing thing...
EVERYONE wanted to try it out in ou to see if it was broken or not/just so they can use it

 

[NinetyNineNo]

Could you tell me where to find the usage stats? Thanks! (Oh no, Gallade :c)

 

[AM]

Gonna just post "assumptions" so to speak as to why things rose and declined based on Sketch Ups post. This is pretty long and just my rambling but gives us some actual discussion going.

- Garchomp usage rose to counter act the threat level of heavy duty contact attackers such as M-Gross, M-Lopunny, Lando-T, etc. Idk what else to honestly say cause the usage is there so I think it's a given to its effectiveness.

- Torn-T usage rose due to the effectiveness of its Life Orb set to deter Balance along with forms of offense that fall around the 115 speed range and below. AV set gained usage due to the presence of Landorus and powerful special wall-breakers in regards to the shift towards utilizing these special sweepers and wall-breakers such as Volcarona as well.

- Mew I think rose for the fact that the whole M-Sableye hype died down and people started realizing that Mew partners up well with M-Sableyes biggest issue in fairies. Sort of how it was in XY with the exception of M-Sableye and a few others it's just a general annoyance to builds and provides a pretty consistent glue for stall-breaking and even offensive utility.

- Mandibuzz potentially dropping was a long time coming and I'm honestly surprised it didn't happen sooner. Everything Mandibuzz supposably checks is in a lot of cases based on theory and doesn't have the capabilities to handle the amount of pressure that the metagame puts on certain defoggers and defensive minded mons. I think its saving grace from not dropping to UU was the idea that it checks all of this stuff as such you'll see it on a couple of conventional balanced builds in an attempt to do that. I don't think it's gonna remain OU for the remainder of Gen 6 though, its just too easy to take advantage of these days and its declining usage is indicative of that.

- Mamoswine I have no idea why its usage is that low honestly but if I had to take a wild guess it's the transition from balance to bulky offense being the case. Mamoswine likes a tier that puts more emphasis on slower builds that are prone to Ice / Ground and doesn't enjoy a tier that's a bit more fast paced as you can see with the increase of threats such as Manaphy, Scizor, Sand Offense, and stuff that falls above its speed tier. It's sort of funny seeing this drop to that extent considering Landorus' presence but usage will always amaze me I guess.

- Gallade isn't exactly a surprise to me in terms of it dropping massively in usage and every time I discuss this with people either with friends or the ranking team it comes back to the fact it's just really easy to check and its peak of success took a huge drop once people started realizing this. Its ability to break these fat cores is nice in theory until you realize the cores people are talking about are either outdated in effectiveness (things like Slowbro + Ferro in how they lose to the specially offensive meta such as Manaphy, Landorus, and Volcarona), or not even as fat as people make them. The necessity to use a Swords Dance to actually be effective is a huge burden on it because it's not as bulky as people make it out to be and it fails to stomach more than two hits at most. Along with almost useless ability and typing that leaves more to be desired I can see why it dropped due to its own flaws and competition as a mega.

- Bisharp rising in usage was coming. More hazards to clean and take advantage of Defog users, more dangerous threats in the meta, the necessity to have reliable priority for various forms of offense. All contributing factors to Bisharps raise and Landorus usage might have to do with this as well seeing as how Landorus appreciates pursuit support with Bisharp being able to provide this. Might not be a huge factor but it's there.

- Landorus is a given lol. Not gonna even bother.

- Excadrill, and sand offense in general, do not rise in usage because of effectiveness but in response to a meta-game and the numerous threats that need to be accounted for. With sand offense the player has capabilities of offensively blanket checking a majority of offense while the rest of the team can be chosen based on what is left, such as stall, balance, etc. Its usage always fluctuates and funnily enough it's always during a time period when there is an extreme threat to the meta or multiple ones that are dominant in the tier in which it rises.

- Scizor. Increase in fairies, pursuit zor being effective along side stuff that appreciates its support such as offensive waters and Landorus. It's really just a solid mon and its small increase in usage is justified.

- Manaphy got a huge jump just for the realization it tears through balance by itself and the idea of a fat core becomes a complete liability with its presence. This is sort of like Excadrill where its implementation on teams is designated to blanket check or handle a bunch of stuff at once really easy and pave the way for something else to clean up and handle the rest either in general or as a win condition like SD M-Scizor. Lol this amount of usage should've happened ages ago.

- Rapid Spin, status absorber, cleaner, filling the hole somewhat as to what Greninja left behind although a small extent, emphasis on more hazards which means the utility of spinning is more beneficial than Defog on some teams. Starmie rising in usage is obvious at this point.

- Clefable I'm not exactly surprised that it's dropping and this started to show around that time people were advocating the hell out of it for S rank funnily enough. It does a lot of things really well but when you have these behemoths like Landorus and M-Metagross roaming around in the tier and just the way the tier is shifting in terms of playstyles it's not unheard of that Clefable might see less usage. However, with all these factors coming into play the usage dropping to that extent is a bit weird to me if you take into account what it's capable of and how its a solid glue regardless.

- Gliscor I'm guessing is just from having so many viable ground types to use and the increase of Ice coverage on everything like Landorus with HP Ice. It's hard to justify Gliscors usage all the time when it gets taken advantage of by more extreme threats in the meta and it wants to run a lot of things at once but simply can't. By no means is it bad but teams are more prepared for it than before it seems.

 

[jordanthejq12]

Is Thunderbolt on Latios a thing now? It switched into my Starmie and after I spun away rocks it got me. It seems like a strange thing to be running.

 

[Enki]

Is Thunderbolt on Latios a thing now? It switched into my Starmie and after I spun away rocks it got me. It seems like a strange thing to be running.

nah, tbolt is mostly for Azumarill, since av azu has fallen a bit, tbolt hits much better cb/bdazu, if your team has trouble against belly azuma you may opt to run Thunderbolt as a coverage move, giving you a passable check to it:
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 191-225 (63.8 - 75.2%)
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Thunderbolt vs. 92 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 309-364 (84.8 - 100%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

 

[Norne]

Is Thunderbolt on Latios a thing now? It switched into my Starmie and after I spun away rocks it got me. It seems like a strange thing to be running.

I always use it for a chance of damaging a lot of pokemon neutraly on predicted Psyshock switch ins, it has nice neutral coverage without making you drop a point for HP fire. Bonus point for heavy damage on azumarril and consistency against sableye and spdef Slowbro.

 

[Chomp29]

Is Thunderbolt on Latios a thing now? It switched into my Starmie and after I spun away rocks it got me. It seems like a strange thing to be running.

You should also note that Latios does not need Thunderbolt to OHKO starmie, in fact, Draco Meteor actually hits it harder [Thunderbolt = (90 * 2) =180 BP] [Draco Meteor = 130 * 1.5) = 195 BP]. Calcs are below:

252 SpA Life Orb Latios Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Starmie: 294-346 (112.2 - 132%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Starmie: 317-374 (120.9 - 142.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

So if Latios is running Thunderbolt, Azumarill, Skarmory, and Togekiss are the main things on its mind.

 

[firehusky]

Thunderbolt is still useful as it avoids the drop in special attack, so latios does not need to switch out after using it.