Official NBA 2011-12 Season Thread

[Phizzlax]

nah, this fact overrules yours: in 5 4th quarters in last year's finals (around 120 minutes), LeBron scored only 11 points which is nowhere near your 50 points in 40 minutes (which is true but he's racking it up in regular season). You can't say it's just 5 games, 'coz it's the Finals! where real heroes and chokers show up.

The argument wasn't that "Lebron is great/terrible/whatever in finals appearances", it was "Lebron is/isn't clutch". That aside, he's been just as good in playoff clutch situations as he has in the regular season. Obviously he had a rough series against the Mavericks, but he was unbelievable against the Bulls in clutch time. Saying he "disappears in the fourth" based on a few games is misleading, when he has in fact been the best fourth quarter player in the league for the last few years, which was my entire point.

Also lol at "this fact overrules yours"

 

[Vein]

i'm not talking about finals appearance. it's about the finals 4th quarters, where it matters the most.. again, those games/minutes may be few, but that's FINALS. and he choked again at least 3 times this season during crunch times.

i even lol when his teammate mr. bosh said that wade should take the ball in crunch. ego-crushing at least.and that says something...

 

[DerrickRose]

LeBron's only been in the finals twice.. it's a horrible sample.

Again, this is why clutch arguments suck and should cease. <_< All this shit is 90% media creation.

'coz it's the Finals! where real heroes and chokers show up.

You would be calling a good chunk of NBA players (who've ever won!) chokers with this kind of logic.

 

[SGV]

Since you guys obviously don't respond to common sense, I'll use stats instead this time. CaptKirby, you say Kobe makes 31% of his shots in "clutch" moments. However, your stats are for his entire career, including his 5 years with Kwame Brown and Smush Parker as starters. On that team he was basically forced to be a ball hog. Since 2009 when Pau Gasol came to LA and Andrew Bynum began developing into one of the top centers in the league, Kobe has made 11 out of 22 in those same "clutch" situations. He also has a higher assist to field goals attempted ratio then Lebron during that time period, which means that not only is Lebron passing up shots, he's not even making the right passes.

In your blind stat following you've basically said you would rather have Shawn Marion shooting the last shot over Dirk Nowitzki because he makes 40% of his clutch shots vs Dirk's 38.5%.



Phizzlax, your "facts" are misleading. My argument was for Lebron ability to play under pressure. You can't tell me with a straight face that you think Chicago had a chance to beat Miami.
The finals really showed how Lebron performs under pressure.
Game 2: When the Mavericks started to cut into Miami's fifteen point fourth quarter lead, Lebron kept on bricking long jumpers instead of driving to the basket, which had been working the entire game.
Game 3: Lebron scores the first bucket of the fourth quarter and does nothing else for the rest of the game besides commiting two turnovers and a shot clock violation while Dwyane Wade bails him out.
Game 4: One fourth quarter shot, nothing more needs to be said.
Game 5: Lebron actually tries to shoot this time down the stretch. 100 up and Lebron bricks a jumpshot. The Mavericks score to take the lead and the next two possessions down he commits a charge klanks a three.
Game 6: He does decent, four points and a three in garbage time.

Lebron's shitty play 5 games in a row is not just a "rough series". In important games in the past it's been clear that he gives up opportunities in the fourth quarter that he would normally take during the first three quarters. There have been flashes of improvement, but nothing consistent.

jwoozie, did you happen to notice how long Lebron had been guarding Rose for? Derrick Rose had been carrying the Bulls for 40+ minutes and you think its impressive that Lebron can step in for the latter part of the 4th quarter and get a couple stops on him? Also, your baseless assumptions that I don't play basketball are just pathetic.

 

[CaptKirby]

Lakers, you cannot bristle at "people looking for a reason to sleight" someone, in other words bitch about uneven fairness, and then casually drop the 5 rings thing into this argument. Especially when you become an arrogant jackass and say "people like you". Thanks for your rude, uncalled for, uneven pejorative, but I was participating in a conversation that did not start with me claiming something that was not fact. As far as I am concerned, given that the defense was awful to mediocre without Gasol or Shaq, Bryant is overrated as shit and won 0 rings as far as I am concerned. Everyone has their opinions, do not drop an argument about "5 rings" into an argument where we have an actual number about how often a guy fails, especially not when you have to drop a casual insult to make your "point". Everyone together would fail the same amount, you go to the best player out of laziness rather than for some elegant reason.

 

[Vein]

As far as I am concerned, given that the defense was awful to mediocre without Gasol or Shaq, Bryant is overrated as shit and won 0 rings as far as I am concerned.

it's funny you're saying Bryant has 0 rings without his biggies... and then he became overrated? I never heard MJ was overrated, but he needed Pippen before he had 6 rings..same as all other greats we know. we all know somebody needs somebody to win in this game, and saying kobe is overrated because he won't win it without shaq/pau is a fallacy.

 

[SGV]

Everyone has their opinions, do not drop an argument about "5 rings" into an argument where we have an actual number about how often a guy fails, especially not when you have to drop a casual insult to make your "point". Everyone together would fail the same amount, you go to the best player out of laziness rather than for some elegant reason.

Lol I just raped your "numbers" in my last post. Way to ignore it.

Thanks for your rude, uncalled for, uneven pejorative, but I was participating in a conversation that did not start with me claiming something that was not fact.

LOL we were having a normal conversation and you decide to call me a "retard" and "incredibly ignorant" If you're too lazy to read back a page:

So in your mind people who care about statistics are retards for ignoring Kobe's amazing ability to fuck up, and then later fuck up again. Wow! We sure are incredibly ignorant!

 

[jwoozie]

SGV, yes I did notice. Notice how I mentioned James guarding Rose for the last 6 minutes of the 4th quarter? And yes, I think it is impressive that James could manage to stop Rose. Was Rose fatigued at that point in the game? Probably. Was LeBron fatigued as well? Probably. If you actually do play basketball you would agree with me that defense is tougher to play when you're tired than offense is, would you not? Plus, stopping Derrick Rose at any point in the game is something to be proud of, he's one of the best players in the league, with probably the quickest first step.

 

[DerrickRose]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FGI...xt=C30fd9b0UDOEgsToPDskLWh-xNlQ7ZOJtBTVfgV6Pq

 

[SGV]

SGV, yes I did notice. Notice how I mentioned James guarding Rose for the last 6 minutes of the 4th quarter? And yes, I think it is impressive that James could manage to stop Rose. Was Rose fatigued at that point in the game? Probably. Was LeBron fatigued as well? Probably. If you actually do play basketball you would agree with me that defense is tougher to play when you're tired than offense is, would you not? Plus, stopping Derrick Rose at any point in the game is something to be proud of, he's one of the best players in the league, with probably the quickest first step.

Look at this genius right here, "Players get tired at the end of games." You probably play at some pussy frosh level or something. If you're conditioned, you still get tired, but you can push through it. Almost every person who plays organized ball knows how to defend, but what separates elite defenders is their effort to push through the pain. NBA players, on top of being athletic freaks, also train more then you could ever imagine. Where fatigue affects their game is more on the offensive end because of the larger amount of decisions to make, especially as a point guard.

 

[CaptKirby]

SGV there will never in my life be a time I dignify somebody who says something like "I raped your numbers."

Vein, what do you mean became overrated? This encapsulates all time, I am not someone who makes up some grudge and then decides things for an argument. I have always felt Kobe was immensely overrated. Jordan, Shaq, and Duncan were unstoppable. Kobe is eminently stoppable. Jordan won without a big, and he would have won rings without Pippen too. Pippen was obviously fantastic, there is no denying that - he would have won rings on his own too.

 

[SGV]

You're a fucking hypocrite, you started with the name calling. And at least I'm not fake like you, I write the way I speak. There's nobody in this world that says stuff like "Wow! We sure are incredibly ignorant!" or "dignify."

 

[Vein]

...

after all this madness, let's all agree that the blake slam over perkins is sick.

(just too bad he did it against mi thunder)

 

[SGV]

Haha thanks I thought nobody noticed that in my first post.

 

[jwoozie]

SGV at this point I can't tell if you're a troll or just an idiot. But since you obviously train with some of the NBA's elite, why don't you go ahead and post a sample workout for us?

 

[gsninja]

I'm like what Goudelock's been doing for the Lakers these past few games. If he can start being consistent like this, then--dare I say it--the Lakers might actually have a reliable bench player again?

 

[Phizzlax]

I'm like what Goudelock's been doing for the Lakers these past few games. If he can start being consistent like this, then--dare I say it--the Lakers might actually have a reliable bench player again?

I thought this was the "argue about semantics and subjective opinions" thread :(

He seems like his entire problem is consistency, he's definitely taken a step in the right direction, though. I hear the Lakers might trade for Ramon Sessions, he'd be a great pickup, not sure what they could offer the Cavs other than some bad draft picks, though.

 

[gsninja]

I thought this was the "argue about semantics and subjective opinions" thread :(

He seems like his entire problem is consistency, he's definitely taken a step in the right direction, though. I hear the Lakers might trade for Ramon Sessions, he'd be a great pickup, not sure what they could offer the Cavs other than some bad draft picks, though.

I'm sorry, I usually come in here just to talk about the Lakers and what they're doing. D:

I didn't know about Sessions, and now that I looked it up on Google it looks like the Lakers are eyeing Gilbert Arenas as well. Honestly, I doubt that either of them would make any real impact compared to the players we already have. Sessions isn't a bad pickup by any means, of course, but Arenas? Meh.

I'm a bit more preoccupied with the SF position, actually. Barnes is much better coming off the bench and Artest is just...lol. I know I already said it, but Ebanks really needs to make a comeback to pre-season levels.

 

[darkie]

imo clutch is not "having the guts to shoot when the pressure is on" but rather "knowing the right move to make when the pressure is on" whether that be pass or shoot. the slight on kobe is that he would rather shoot a contested shot than pass to an open teammate. the slight on lebron is that he would rather pass to a teammate than risk missing a shot.

those are both valid statements but let's be honest here: the best clutch player in the nba is obviously dirk nowitzki.

 

[CaptKirby]

The word is sleight, and it implies wrongful accusation. No one is wrongly accusing Kobe of anything, that is the point of a forthright discussion. As long as facts are involved and angry screaming is not, then there is no sleight. The thing on Lebron is probably a bit of a sleight because passing if you are not the best clutch player is a completely valid decision, but at the same time it does say something about his abilities as a ballplayer so it is valid analysis. When barrel to the basket is not good enough, he has failed in the past at the end of games. Kobe is better at making difficult shots, but no matter how good he is at them obsessive end of game shooting shows a certain hubris.

That being said, Kobe has gotten older and has finally become a little more clutch, it looks like. He was an average to terrible clutch player any given year through the 2008-2009 season, but he has seemed pretty reliable in 2010 to 2011. I do not mind small sample sizes, it makes sense if he got better due to age (forced him to refine his shot since getting to the basket gets harder).

SGV, I did not start the petty bickering. You accused people who do not think Kobe Bryant is clutch of not being as good of basketball fans as you.

 

[darkie]

sleight/slīt/
Noun:
The use of dexterity or cunning, esp. so as to deceive

slight/slīt/
Adjective:
Small in degree; inconsiderable.
Verb:
Insult (someone) by treating or speaking of them without proper respect or attention.
Noun:
An insult caused by a failure to show someone proper respect or attention.


i don't know what you're talking about..?

is it not an insult to call kobe a ballhog or lebron scared at the end of games? they are both legitimate superstars after all and could not have risen to that level without a certain amount of skill and talent.

 

[CaptKirby]

Oh sorry I thought the argument was that it was deceptive/manipulative, not disrespectful...kind of a different emphasis on the offense taken by the other party, my bad.

It is not insulting to factually discuss that Kobe is completely not a superstar in the last ten seconds of the game, but is completely, utterly normal NBA player. It is also not an insult to discuss how, if worse than normal, it is good for Lebron to pass. Neither Kobe or Lebron are good clutch players, so why argue about them compared to each other? Both fail by the standards of "are they a superstar with the game on the line".

 

[darkie]

there is no argument in my post as it is obviously speaking in generalities and is tongue-in-cheek lol

 

[YTP]

LOL
mavs

also: westbrook is clutch.

 

[Vein]

also: westbrook is clutch.

this is probably more arguable than kobe and james ^^

nice win for mi thunder after that embarassment in LA. these young guys are really good at bouncing back.

also, a wierd double-doube for ibaka with 11 rebounds and 10 BLOCKS.

and LOLMAVS (i'm still bitter at thunder's loss in WCF last year)